January 28, 2014
Let Someone Else Pay

In the Sunday, January 26, 2014 edition of the Seattle Times, we are treated to Pro and Con opinion pieces on a $15 minimum wage for Seattle. The Pro side saw the higher minimum as a means of closing the gap between low and high income earners; not an unexpected argument. (For one of the most cogent articles on income inequality see: David Brooks Column in the NY Times)

It was on the Con side where a surprise occurred. The writer has a small business and makes the case that jumping Seattle's minimum wage by over $5 an hour would add significantly to existing stresses on small business. One more increase on top of rising rents, utilities, employee benefits and completion from online merchants not to mention regulations (remember the City of Seattle imposed parking changes and mandated sick leave). The Con article noted that small businesses with less than 50 employees would be exempted, "But, if Fred Meyer, Home Depot and Starbucks are all paying $15 an hour, other businesses would be forced to follow suit if they want to compete for competent, capable employees." Additionally, raising the minimum to $15 would force up wages for other workers. If all these costs cannot be offset by reducing labor or moving to a cheaper location, they would have to be passed on to customers. It would not be too long before these increased costs would flow into the general economy ($5 lattes anyone?) and the $15 minimum would be called too low. Off we'd go chasing our socialist tails once again.

Unfortunately, the Con plea veered hard left by proposing alternate ways of improving the lives of minimum wage earners by shifting taxes on small business to big corporations and wealthy people and implementing rent control. Every day there is another call for taxing the rich. As Margaret Thatcher said, "The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money." As for rent control, do not some landlords qualify as owners of a small business? Also rent control has unintended consequences such as deferred maintenance, damping of new construction and landlords being forced to subsidize long time renters through below market rates.

Before we tinker with our economic system by mandating wage and rent levels not supported by the market, we should concentrate on policies that encourage investment, job creation and education that produces graduates with skills commensurate with higher pay. These are harder to do than voting for a $15 minimum wage and limiting rent but they do offer a greater possibility of a permanent solution.

Posted by warrenpeterson at January 28, 2014 11:01 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Warren, your argument falls apart with "Before we tinker with our economic system by mandating wage and rent levels not supported by the market...". Sorry, we've already tinkered. This is the classic libertarian soundbite against any minimum wage -- or, for that matter, any employment regulations whatsoever. Is this your position? If not, you need to address the real issue, which is what is the optimal level of tinkering.

Posted by: Bruce on January 28, 2014 11:33 AM
2. Warren,
I don't necessarily disagree with your main point. Things like Rent Control do have unintended side effects. However, your closing is weak. It is weak because of an assumption you make.

You state:
"... we should concentrate on policies that encourage investment, job creation and education that produces graduates with skills commensurate with higher pay...."

The assumption the economy can produce higher paying jobs to replace lower paying jobs. This is false. We will always have low skill jobs. Automation can't get rid of all low skill labor needed in society. The real problem is the gap between the low skill and high skill is a lot greater now than it was say 30-40 years ago. You have software engineers in the $50 to $75 per hour range along side landscape labor. This is not talking executive pay, but simple non-supervisory labor market. This type of gap then creates inequity in such things like the local housing market. If you want to do a real comparison, compare median housing prices for King County versus a small town (Eastern WA or better so, Midwest).

What a better idea would be would be to encourage businesses to move to smaller communities and attract the workforce there, instead of continuing this merry-go-round of feeding big cities and commuters to big cities. It used to be for factories, businesses spread out the factories. Look at IBM in the early 80's and their policies on impact of towns. Now, instead, especially in the high-tech world, it is concentration in a few key areas, with escalating salaries. Seattle and SF/Silicon Valley IT salaries are 20-40% higher than nation-wide average. This in turn is driving the costs up for everyone else who lives in those areas.

Getting back to my point, though, no matter where those high paying jobs are located, they still need low wage labor. We can't just say everyone shift to higher paying skill sets. We need (as a country) to spread out the high pay skill sets. Housing costs and transportation costs are driving the wage scale in large cities. It is time we spread this inequity. I know Seattle Council doesn't want to hear this, but maybe there best move would be instead to look at diversification of industry instead of concentrating so much on high-tech.

Posted by: tc on January 28, 2014 12:33 PM
3. I don't see why you don't understand that we lost. Even if Republicans win this year, we lost.

No body cares about what you think. They don't want to dialogue with you.

They want to destroy you and they have done a pretty good job of it


You really thought this was just a difference of opinion. You moron.

I hope they hang you from the Smith Tower.

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 02:29 PM
4. The socialists in Seattle are comming after you now. And they are going to shoot you in the head. They are going to shoot you in the head.

You thought this was a frendly disagreement didn't you. A matter for debate. They didn't want to debate you. And now they are going to come after you and shoot you in the head.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuPLngPeLk

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 02:46 PM
5. I think what makes me hate you the most is your pompous attitude and the fact your never got who these people really were.

And then are now coming to shoot you in the end. ANd I don't give a damm. You didn't get who these people were until it was too late and now they are going to shoot you in the head.

You always were all talk. And they they knew it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UuPLngPeLk

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 02:52 PM
6. They are going to hang you from the Smith Tower.

Or the Space Needle.

Or better yet, they are just going to shoot you in the head.

Run, Run before it's too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS0L09tcsas

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 03:01 PM
7. .
Warren, you concluded with
we should concentrate on policies that encourage investment, job creation and education that produces graduates with skills commensurate with higher pay. These are harder to do than voting for a $15 minimum wage and limiting rent but they do offer a greater possibility of a permanent solution.

Just what policies are you proposing to achieve your stated objectives? Tax cuts? Deregulation? More of the same old, same old Republican mantra that sure as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west produced the economic calamities of 1929 and 2008?

At some point, Warren, an old dog needs to learn. You're not there yet.

A living wage guaranteed by a government of the people, by the people, for the people has been tried too, and it works.

Time to stop praying to the false profit of "the market" and paying attention to the people. It is the people that do the living and dying and it is we the people that our government was created to serve and protect.
Our government is not to be some paean to free market glibertarian invisible hand fairies.

Pay the 12th Man a fair and living wage!
$15/HR

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 28, 2014 04:54 PM
8. Mike isn't playing games here.

He is going to shoot you in the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6jx2shhC48


Nudge, Shove Shoot!

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 06:44 PM
9. Every penny the "minimum wage" is raised amounts to a slap in the face of anyone who's ever busted their butt, and learned any kind of skill.

Posted by: Independent Voter on January 28, 2014 07:24 PM
10. @9 Independent Voter on January 28, 2014 07:24 PM,

And little kids believe in the tooth fairy.

A liveable wage for working people benefits all working people and all businesses that sell to working people.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 28, 2014 08:12 PM
11. Mike's going to kill you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCHNzWWIzEg

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 08:15 PM
12. @10 Steve on January 28, 2014 08:15 PM,

If you had a good argument against a fair and living wage of $15/HR, you'd make it.
Unfortunately all you have and all you've ever had is fear mongering.

We are not afraid. (h/t Pete Seeger)

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 28, 2014 08:19 PM
13. Republicans are LESS than useless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YlfWjePWOw

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 08:25 PM
14. Mike wants to kill you.

Mike will kill you.

HAVE AN EXIT PLAN. SEATTLE IS NO LONGER SAFE

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 08:33 PM
15. Why did Jewish people stay in Germany? Why after Hitler won? Why did they stay when the writing was on the wall?

Why are you staying in Seattle?

They will kill you.

Nudge, Shove Shoot!

It's SHOOTING TIME!

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 08:40 PM
16. Steve is sounding suicidal and paranoid. Cloward and Piven are breathing down your neck. Take a deep breath and get back on your meds - for the sake of humanity !

Posted by: KDS on January 28, 2014 08:48 PM
17. I hope he makes you suffer, KDS,

You enabled them.


He is going to shoot you in the head.

Posted by: Steve on January 28, 2014 08:58 PM
18. tensor, Bruce, demo kid, Dr. Steve,

ROAD TRIP!!!

Posted by: Anonymous on January 28, 2014 09:28 PM
19. Put down the crack pipe, Steve.. you are wierding us out.

Posted by: KDS on January 28, 2014 09:32 PM
20. Every penny the "minimum wage" is raised amounts to a slap in the face of anyone who's ever busted their butt, and learned any kind of skill.

I have an engineering degree, and I have done well for myself with it. I take advantage of my good fortune with frequent visits to the clubs, bars, and restaurants of Seattle. Every one of the workers who cooks my food, mixes my drinks, or waits my tables works harder than do I, for far less money. And many of them are scrimping and saving, to get the education I earned. They should not have to depend on the caprice of my tipping to realize their dreams. I voted for Council Member Sawant, because I support the $15/hour minimum wage.

Posted by: tensor on January 28, 2014 09:49 PM
21. Minimum wage hikes and fed stimulus are like leaf blowers. They do not solve problems. They move them around. Five years of progressive socialist policy have only created much a wider income gap. Ever notice how the socialists in the top oligarchy always try to placate the victims of their policy? Lest the victims figure out who caused the problem in the first place.

Posted by: Mike on January 29, 2014 06:10 AM
22. Have an exit plan.


A lot of Jews didn't.

By the way want to know why the Republicans can't be trusted. Listen to this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabC7b0n9KA

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 07:05 AM
23. "...we should concentrate on policies that encourage investment, job creation and education that produces graduates with skills commensurate with higher pay."

Yes, let's recall all of those (u)SP posts over the years, the ones which advocated for higher teacher pay, more educational infrastructure, and the tax increases needed to pay for it all.

"These are harder to do than voting for a $15 minimum wage ..."
According to the majority in our state's Senate -- the one we in the majority of voters declined to elect -- the education improvements here listed are not possible. Voting for a $15/hour minimum wage is possible, so once again we see (u)SP utterly fail at making a simple factual statement about local politics.

But hey, keep typing those meaningless glibertarian catch-phrases, as if they were true and relevant. Years from now, when Seattle has lead the nation in increasing prosperity via the $15/hour minimum wage, you can just keep typing those same catch-phrases. It's not like anyone here has ever gone back and examined why their predictions turned out to be wrong.

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 07:57 AM
24. Even debating with these scumbags you lose.

Look, I was born in Seattle. Grew up with JP Patches, Hydros, all of that. Love the Seahawks.

But if you live in, or even frequently visit Seattle these days you are an idiot!

Hell, living in the State of Washington may soon become problematic but certainly living in or working in the city limits of Seattle is dumb.

Do you believe in what you claim you belive in you take actions. When Seattle elects a Maoist Councilmember, you take the hint and MOVE.

So you lose some money. Is that more important than living in freedom?

Given how Boeing stock is plumingling today, economically this might be your best move as well. You thought the price of your house plummeted in 2007, you haven't seen anything yet.

The only place you will be safe is among like minded people.

Have an exit plan.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 07:57 AM
25. Poeple who realy believe in things take actions based upon such believe.

It's time to move.

You can't save Seattle.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 08:00 AM
26. The Democrats might be bad, but the Republicans have no answers.

I am not the only one who believes this way. Check out the ANGRY responses to this article.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/01/28/WATCH-Republican-Response-to-Obamas-State-of-the-Union

I think Republicans are going to be very shocked at the anger the actual anger that will be directed at them by people who in their past were their alies.


She's one of ours. We need to get rid of her for the sake of our nation.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 08:23 AM
27. MBS, "Just what policies are you proposing to achieve your stated objectives?"

Warren, "policies that encourage investment, job creation and education"

My wingnut decoder ring interprets that as "tax cuts for the wealthy, more tax cuts for the wealthy, and vouchers".

Posted by: Dr. Zatoichi, the Blind Surgeon on January 29, 2014 09:57 AM
28. "When Seattle elects a Maoist Councilmember, you take the hint and MOVE. [...] So you lose some money. Is that more important than living in freedom?"

Steve, please read the official guidance memo before posting comments here. You are clearly NOT allowed to admit socialist feminist Seattle is wealthier than the rugged, manly individualists in wherever the heck you advocate moving to. The official line here is that left-wing policies impoverish, free-market policies make wealth. Regurgitate talking points accordingly, please, and treat reality like the frightening plague you perceive it to be.

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 10:06 AM
29. It's always been the Academic Class that has embraced Marxism, and in the end the working class to suffer the most.

Look, all the Well Heeled Jews, well at least most of them, they all did say, what the hell, and they packed up and Left.

It was the ones who couldn't afford to move, they stayed.

So, yeah, it is time for us to move. Don't wait until you can't. Otherwise you will end up as a dead Jew.

Don't become a Dead Jew,

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 03:57 PM
30. When I was young
It seemed that life was so wonderful

A miracle
Oh, it was beautiful, magical

And all the birds in the trees
Well, they'd be singing so happily
Oh, joyfully
Oh, playfully watching me

But then they sent me away
To teach me how to be sensible
Logical

Oh, responsible, practical
And then they showed me a world

Where I could be so dependable
Oh, clinical
Oh, intellectual, cynical

There are times when all the world's asleep
The questions run too deep

For such a simple man
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned?

I know it sounds absurd

Please tell me who I am

I say, now watch what you say

Or they'll be calling you a radical
A liberal
Oh, fanatical, criminal

Oh, won't you sign up your name?

We'd like to feel you're acceptable
Respectable

Oh, presentable, a vegetable
Whoa

Take it, take it, take it, yeah

But at night when all the world's asleep
The questions run so deep

For such a simple man

Won't you please (Won't you tell me, won't you tell me what we've learned?)

Please tell me what we've learned? (Can you hear me? I know it sounds absurd)
I know it sounds absurd (Won't you help me? Tell me who I am)

But please tell me who I am
Who I am
Who I am
Who I am, yeah
Woo!
Hey!
'Cause I'm feeling so logical
Hey!
D-d-d-d-d-d-d-digital
Yeah, one, two, three, five
Ooh, uh, uh, uh, yeah
Ooh, it's getting unbelievable
Yeah
Ooh

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 04:17 PM
31. Now there's no more oak oppression,
For they passed a noble law,
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and saw!

They are going to shoot you in the head.

And here you thought this was just some disagreement. Some point of debate.

They didn't want to debate you. They wanted to DESTROY YOU!

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 04:40 PM
32. .
Warren,
We can assume that Costco's CEO, Craig Jelinek, is a leftwing crazy Democrat. But, you know, there are a lot of Costco execs in this area that are not Democrats.

Why don't you move the ball forward and interview a Republican Costco exec about the impact on Costco's business by paying its employees a fair and living wage when its biggest competition, Walmart, takes the opposite tact?

Ask the Costco exec what the impact is and has been on the Costco business bottom line of Costco's senior leadership openly siding with President Obama's and the Democratic Party's pushing for an increase to the minimum wage.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 29, 2014 05:12 PM
33. "(For one of the most cogent articles on income inequality see: David Brooks Column in the NY Times)"

It's really a shame. The NY Times just doesn't have a columnist capable of, say, winning the Nobel Prize in Economics; if it did, we might cite his words on the topic of income inequality.

"When Seattle elects a Maoist Councilmember, you take the hint and MOVE. "

Got your bags packed yet, Steve? Or is your "resistance" to the "oppression" in Seattle limited to whining about it on a low-readership blog while coming into Seattle every working day?. Were I a betting man, my money would be on the latter.

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 05:54 PM
34. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 06:14 PM
35. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 06:14 PM
36. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 06:14 PM
37. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 06:14 PM
38. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 06:14 PM
39. By Debating these people you give them a target. Don't debate them. You can't stop them. Make them the target

RUN. RUN RUN RUN as if they themselves were the Zommbie Hoard. Run run run, before they declare Martial Law.

They are coming to kill you. They are done with Nudge and Shove! Time for Shoot.


Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:16 PM
40. I left the Republican party. Becuase they were always your tool. And soon, you won't have them as your playmates anymore because the Republican Party is just going to colapse right into itself.

Yep, goin' off the grid so to speak. But doesn't mean I am not going to peek in every so often. And perhaps after Boeing leaves and Costco Leaves and Seattle becomes a little Detroit, perhaps then we will return as a new party stronger than ever!

But then again, why re-build Seattle when we can build somewhere else up stronger.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:22 PM
41. Who is John Galt?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDtQkeLFCE

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:24 PM
42. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

Only because you are too selfish to move somewhere where your wife's business is appreciated. I don't know what your wife does but there are still places, although I know it gets harder to find them, but there are still places where such work is appreciated and rewarded.

We have allowed ourselves to become fractionized. We need to do what our forefathers did when they felt persecution! Wisconsin, maybe. Look and see.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wseyWRBWzyM

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:33 PM
43. Every person's way of "going Galt" will be different. Some might just choose to stay away from the cities. Some might go out much further.


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/retire-here-not-there-costa-rica-2013-07-16

But understand, if you stay here they will kill you. Go to somewhere where you can begin to out number them.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:39 PM
44. They don't want us here. They have made that quite clear. So if they don't want us here, we better RUN.

Or die.

Literally like a Jew.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:42 PM
45. Climb every mountain
Ford every stream
Follow every rainbow
Till you find your dream!!!!!!

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:45 PM
46. RUN if you want to live! If you want to live RUN!

I know, it's your home. But that's what your forefathers did!

It's too late to do anything else.

Well you can wait and just "hope" things are going to get better.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 06:56 PM
47. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.

But then it can be everyone's business.

No, run, run before they kill you and your wife!

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/07/23/i-would-like-a-royalty-check-glenn-beck-endorses-the-dark-knight-rises-and-we-break-down-its-messages/

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 07:03 PM
48. From 42,

You clearly know nothing about business in the specialty retail market. The corporate icon is riding a model designed to run the small franchisee out of business. Great for the corporate survivable, but death for the little guy. If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, the local business is gone.

Let me guess here, Steve: you have a job in government or something that is near-government in its employment nature. That's the only way a pompous ass as your self would make such an asinine comment about business.

Posted by: Ten Years After - Roger Rabbit is just a liberal progressive troll. THERE, FIXED! on January 29, 2014 07:25 PM
49. Yeah, we're coming for you, Steve, but not this Sunday as we'll be watching some football. So you can rest easy until Monday.

Posted by: Yup, we're coming for you, Steveu on January 29, 2014 07:35 PM
50. "Yep, goin' off the grid so to speak. But doesn't mean I am not going to peek in every so often..."

How can we miss you if you won't go away?

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 07:39 PM
51. @48 Posted by: Ten Years After on January 29, 2014 07:25 PM,

Ok, let's try something novel here.
Teach us. Maybe your wife's business can educate us.

First, how many employees (not contractors) does your wife currently employee for less than $15/HR?

Secondly, describe the position (like a job posting) of the highest paid but under $15/HR employee. What are the skills, qualifications and expected work schedule?

Third, what was the total gross salary of under $15/HR employees for 2013?

Fourth, what was your wife's business 2013 net income?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 29, 2014 07:42 PM
52. @48 Posted by: Ten Years After on January 29, 2014 07:25 PM,

Sorry, I forgot an important question.

Fifth, what was the annual attrition rate for 2011, 2012 and 2013 of all employees paid under $15/HR? (I trust you know how to do that math, but if you don't please ask & I'll give you the formula)

Look forward to discussing the answers to 5 questions.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 29, 2014 07:48 PM
53. They are going to rape your wife. They are going to rape your wife right in front of you and make you watch. And then they are going to throw gas on your wife and she will be screaming HELP ME, but you are just going to be forced to watch without being able to do anything, and then they are going to set her aflame and her screams will echo in your ears.

Run, run before it's too late. Your wife's can't have a business if she is dead!

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 08:01 PM
54. @23

meaningless glibertarian catch-phrases

Actually your phony catch-phrase is a good example of something that is both meaningless and glib.

Posted by: Leftover on January 29, 2014 08:23 PM
55. The corporate icon is riding a model designed to run the small franchisee out of business

Well then you can forget help coming from either the Republican or Democrat Party.

Proof that we need a real Second Party. A Real opposition party.

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/free-trade-far-from-free/

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 08:39 PM
56. By the way this is who we replace the RINOS with. We place them with people who hate all these international trade deals that have hurt small businesses in America.

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 08:45 PM
57. This is why everyone should hate Republicans (and Democrats).

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/kerry-signals-advance-of-north-american-union-plan/

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 09:09 PM
58. This is why everyone should hate Republicans (and Democrats).

http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/kerry-signals-advance-of-north-american-union-plan/

Posted by: Steve on January 29, 2014 09:13 PM
59. "Actually your phony catch-phrase is a good example of something that is both meaningless and glib."

So, you have some economic statistics to validate any of Warren's points? For example, Washington state's minimum wage is higher than the minimum wage in Idaho; the two states share a long land border, with cities on either side. It should be pretty easy to show how jobs have migrated from one side of that border to the other - if the theory about higher wages driving away jobs is correct. Care to try?

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 09:33 PM
60. @59

I do not have a comment on Warren's post. I was only pointing out that it is quite glib and meaningless to use phony words like "glibertarian."

And you are not quoting any statistics either. You are just guessing that years from now a minimum wage hike will have made a difference in prosperity. But it might just raise prices and cost of living, negating the gain in income.

As an engineer, you should know you cannot get something for nothing. Every action has consequences.

Posted by: Leftover on January 29, 2014 10:35 PM
61. "As an engineer, you should know you cannot get something for nothing. Every action has consequences."

Do you really think the laws of economics resemble Newton's laws of motion, or are you just spouting meaningless catch-phrases, devoid of context? Have you ever seen opponents of the minimum wage, or increases therein, justify their job-killing rhetoric with actual economic data? If not, why would you continue to believe them? Such a belief doesn't sound very scientific to this engineer, at least.

"I do not have a comment on Warren's post."

Well, of course not. This would be the last place on earth to expect such a thing.

I was only pointing out that it is quite glib and meaningless to use phony words like "glibertarian."

Yes, I admit: "glibertarian" is a totally made-up word -- unlike every other word in every language ever.

"And you are not quoting any statistics either."

I'm not the one stating as fact that an increase in the local minimum wage will have a detrimental effect on the local economy. Warren has done so, and without the slightest attempt at justification. You had an opportunity to comment on that, but you declined to take it, deciding instead to criticize the person who pointed this out. Pardon me if I decline to take your criticism seriously. (And, are you disputing my claim of Washington having a higher minimum wage than Idaho?)

Posted by: tensor on January 29, 2014 11:59 PM
62. He wants to shoot you in the head

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 08:12 AM
63. Steve, could you please be a bit more specific? I'm afraid the Republicans here may read your oft-repeated concern with cranial trauma as "shoot you in the face," which, we know from experience, doesn't really bother them all that much.

Posted by: tensor on January 30, 2014 09:20 AM
64. MBS - why not $20/hr?

Overall...why don't progressives focus on promoting strong families instead of single parent homes? Or self sufficiency? What have people done to create an opportunity for themselves to have a "living wage"? What choices did they make?


Strong family and hard work in education and jobs leads to prosperity. Looking to government to help you leads to being a surf and being poor. Take initiative and make something of yourself.

Again not everyone in poor straights is there because they didn't work hard, but most are and progressives like that. Their war on the poor has been a winning solution to keep them "fed". People need to stop being a liberal and embracing the LCD. Especially those liberals that have worked so hard to make it and then tell others they can't.

Posted by: Dengle on January 30, 2014 11:16 AM
65. Tensor,

So the people working in bars to earn money for an education deserve more money? I'm glad they are doing that (I was one too) and sacrifice to do that to better themselves, but they do not deserve more money dictated by the government. They deserve what the market will pay them for their talents.

How did you get your degree? Did you make choices earlier in life to work hard in school? Did you take out loans, where your parents evil 1%? You made choices and are doing well. Pay more tip then, but don't force business owners to pay more than what is right for the market. That stifles business and thus hurts all.

Posted by: Dengle on January 30, 2014 11:29 AM
66. You can't argue with these people. You are giving them a target. You are enabling them.

The truth is they don't want to debate you. They certainly don't want to learn anything from you. They want to...

Shoot you in the head!

RUN!

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 01:06 PM
67. Give tbem this.

The economy of Seattle will collapse. All these people are going to lose their jobs.

Meanwhile move to somewhere that you can find where there's some hope left.

Because you are going to lose. And debating them is enabling them all the more.

So ESCAPE from SEATTLE.

You are a Jew trying to debate Mein Kaupt with a Nazi. You aren't going to convince a Nazi that Mein Kaupt is wrong.

All you can do is run.

Because they will just shoot you.

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 01:11 PM
68. MBS - why not $20/hr?

Now see that's what a SMART party would do. Give the people of Seattle a choice. Put it all on the ballot at the same time.

$20/hr

$30/hr

$50/hr

That would put THEM on the Defense.

That would make them have to explain why one is "too much" and the other is "too little" and by the time they are finished the election will be over.

Right now they are making the issue YOU. Everyone's Hatred for YOU!

A lot of people are going to hate you this year. HELL I HATE you.

SO, pick your fights carefully.

Or better yet. RUN!

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 01:24 PM
69. Thanks steve. Now go hit it up and mellow out. :-)

BTW - I can't wait for a Seattle media outlet to stop lying and disrespecting Kshama Sawant by calling her a socialist. She's a communist and believes in all that Leon Trotsky believed. So I guess you are right in that they might want to shoot me in the head.

Posted by: Dengle on January 30, 2014 02:12 PM
70. More tired cliches, more trite moralizing, no economic data...

"Overall...why don't progressives focus on promoting strong families instead of single parent homes?"

Higher wages strengthen families. We want non-traditional families to succeed as well. (If one parent in a two-parent home is killed in a traffic accident, should the survivors have to live in poverty?)

"Strong family and hard work in education and jobs leads to prosperity."

Simplistic moralizing and no data results in glibertarian win! Meanwhile, real people can do all of those things and remain in poverty. Too bad for them, eh? Luckily, they have the examples of Paris Hilton and W. to show them how it's done.

"Again not everyone in poor straights is there because they didn't work hard, but most are and progressives like that."

[citation needed]


Posted by: tensor on January 30, 2014 02:22 PM
71. Tensor,

Sorry...I wasn't more clear. I would hope that the family made the decision to have life insurance in the example you site. I'm talking about the liberal agenda that doesn't address kids having kids? Or not having a traditional family or two parent family and the tight bond that develops. Of course there are examples on the fringe that it doesn't matter, but in really it does.

As for you can work hard and not get where you want? What life isn't fair? Paris Hilton? W? What?

How about Hilary Swank? Lived in a bus, worked toward what she wanted and made it. How about you? Did you work hard? are you a silver spoon bitch that you hate? Does that matter?

People will always have different outcomes in life. But the government will never make them equal or fair. Government can make you equal...by killing freedom and choice...and even then you won't be equal, because the "dear leaders" will be above you.

Posted by: Dengle on January 30, 2014 02:54 PM
72. Sorry...forgot the link to the Harvard study on mobility.

http://www.inquisitr.com/1114601/single-parents-hinder-social-mobility-harvard-study-claims/

Posted by: Dengle on January 30, 2014 02:57 PM
73. @64 Dengle on January 30, 2014 11:16 AM

You asked "Overall...why don't progressives focus on promoting strong families instead of single parent homes?"
Which progressives are "promoting" single parent homes? [citation needed] (h/t tensor)

Your boogie woman, Seattle City Council Woman and 15now.org founder, Kshama Sawant, has not. Nor has the newly elected Mayor of Seattle, Mayor Murray, and supporter of an increase to the minimum wage ever done so.

But as long as we are on the subject, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 30, 2014 04:22 PM
74. @72 Dengle on January 30, 2014 02:57 PM

I sincerely appreciate your referring to the Harvard Study, but instead of linking to somebody's opinion of it let's go right to the study - WHERE IS THE LAND OF OPPORTUNITY? THE GEOGRAPHY OF INTERGENERATIONAL MOBILITY IN THE UNITED STATES

Your comments seem to show you to be generally confused, so let's get something out of the way right out front. The Harvard study is not about single parents nor poverty, but intergenerational (economic) mobility.

Income =/= Mobility

{Hopefully you'll read the study in its entirety and be able to understand it fully because your "strong family" inspired you to continue your education and read/write peer reviewed scholarly works.}

No one here has argued that an increase in the minimum wage will improve intergenerational (economic) mobility.

I have argued that a fair & liveable wage for working people benefits all working people and all businesses that sell to working people.

It ain't a new and unproven concept. Henry Ford, noted communist and failed businessman (/snark), introduced his $5-a-day pay rate in 1914 when most workers made $11 a week.

How bad was that? for Ford Motor Company? For the US of A?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 30, 2014 04:48 PM
75. Dengle, we're talking about raising Seattle's minimum wage. Bash all of the straw men "progressives" you care to erect, repeat all of the glibertarian cliches you've got -- it does not matter. I have repeatedly invited opponents of raising Seattle's minimum wage to provide data showing it would, as you all claim, harm the local economy. No one has done so. I even helpfully pointed out how the state with the highest minimum wage -- Washington --- sits across a long and porous border from a state with the one of the lowest minimum wages -- Idaho. For all of the glibertarian windbaggery displayed here, from Warren on down, not a single one of you has shown how Washington lost even one single job to Idaho, much less how Washington's economy has suffered harm.

Council Member Sawant has something: a political victory and real power. You've got nothing. Nothing. Good luck beating something with nothing.

Posted by: tensor on January 30, 2014 04:55 PM
76. @75 tensor on January 30, 2014 04:55 PM,

Not to quibble, but Savant has that power because she had the smarts and fortitude to push a very POPULAR policy idea over the din and dollars of the fear mongering glibertarian proponents of the invisible hand fairy.
You'd think the (un)SP peanut gallery would get it because politically it's a no-brainer. :-)

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 30, 2014 05:02 PM
77. So I guess you are right in that they might want to shoot me in the head.

Finally SOMEONE GETS IT!

Debating them on this or any issue like this just gives them a target.

They don't want to debate you. They want to kill you.

Finally someone gets it.

Now run...

And never debate someone who wants to kill you ever again! Gives them credibility they use to destroy you.

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 05:04 PM
78. If you want to stop them then you need to push their insanity to its logical end. You need to propose a 50 Dollar mininium wage.

The idiots will go for it and when passsed the economy of Seattle will be destroyed.

I know it's harsh but they are like Cancer. And right now only this Chemo will have a chance of driving this cancer away.

Either that or...

RUN.

Because we know where such Maoism ends.

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 05:09 PM
79. @64 Dengle on January 30, 2014 11:16 AM,

One more thing.
Which side promoted "strong families instead of single parent homes" in WA in the debate over marriage equality; Progressives? or opponents of Progressives?

17 States now have legal same-sex marriage.

Which side made that happen; liberal-progressive Democrats? or conservative-regressive Republicans?

Which side are you on?

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 30, 2014 05:10 PM
80. @78 Crazy Person says: "Because we know where such Maoism ends."

I'm happy to know that there's nothing in your household made in China.

Where is Shanghai Dan?


Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 30, 2014 05:12 PM
81. The problem with the current mimium wage proposal is it won't be harsh enough to kill the economy as quickly as is needed for a visual. Perhaps 50 dolalrs is to much but yeah, push for a higher mimimum wage than they want. They will lose control of their minions who would go HELL YEAH I like this idea better. It will totally mess with the dynamics of their side.

And at that point that is all we really have.

So, yeah, it's a "to save the village we must kill it" kind of plan but that's what we are left with.

So, if you are serious about fighting them then yeah, propose a much higher minimum wage than what they are proposing. It will totally mess it up.

If we are to win we must make sacrifices. They did when they had to.

Oh, if you don't want to fight then RUN! Because they really do want to kill you!

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 05:19 PM
82. Which side made that happen; liberal-progressive Democrats? or conservative-regressive Republicans?

In our state it was the Republicans. Specifically the Senators that got elected in 2010.


Marriage Equality would not be a reality in Washington State if it weren't for the support of Republican Senators Steve Litzow, Joe Fain, Andy Hill , former Senator Cheryl Pflug and Representative Maureen Walsh and former Representative Glenn Anderson.

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 05:26 PM
83. let's go right to the study

Why did we lose?

We lost because we failed to apply the strategic lessons of warfare to the attack on our culture.

We lost because we gave away the psychological environment. We spent 30 years playing by our opponents' rules of engagement instead of forcing them to play by ours.


During that time, we imagined that all we had to do was be right, present our views logically, and provide reams of documentation.

We were under attack, whereas we thought we were merely under disagreement. We said we just needed to understand each other. The truth was, our adversaries understood us better than we knew.

Stop debating these Maoists. I hate you so much Dengle. You are such a tool. They are using you. You are giving them a target. You are helping them win damn you. Damn you to hell!

I hope when the time comes they hang you from the Space Needle!

Stop giving them a target. They use hatred of you to win.

Now, two choices here. Either fight them by supporting a minmium wage that will totally destroy the Seattle Economy or RUN.

Otherwise I will be laughing at the youtube of your hanging from the Space Needle!

Never debate people who want to kill you!

Posted by: Steve on January 30, 2014 06:03 PM
84. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfULzZGpbUM

Moral of story...

When there's more mice and pigeons than hunters and hawks, we become the hunter, we become the hawk.


Run little men..., run...

I don't give a damn about logic. This isn't about logic. This never was about debate. We are not "under disagreement" I want to kill you...


Didijust wants what's best for Seattle. You aren't best for Seattle. Didi is.

Posted by: Auntie Kshama's Story TIme on January 30, 2014 07:47 PM
85. What is the meaning of Hindi word Didi?


Big Sister


Big overbearing sister

Posted by: learn on January 30, 2014 07:51 PM
87. Auntie is something you call a kindly old lady but if she doesn't consider herself elderly yet (still wears western clothes) she will consider it an insult.

Didi Big Sister...Kind of reminds us of Big Brother because of course any communist situation like the one she wants has to totally be a "big Brother" state.

So how about Auntie DIDI?

See that's sophisiticated not lame like all that oow talk was.

Auntie DiDi just wants the best for Seattle which means she wants to kill y

Posted by: Learn on January 30, 2014 08:07 PM
88. Ridicule is always the most effective weapon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqeSsqGMaj4

Posted by: LoL on January 30, 2014 08:20 PM
89. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NoYfEzTIBM

Posted by: LoL on January 30, 2014 08:26 PM
90. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwOvW3T4eOE

Posted by: LOL on January 30, 2014 08:29 PM
91. This is the best one yet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOgALTFzFbQ

Posted by: LoL on January 30, 2014 08:36 PM
92. This is why no one takes the aggressive progressives like tensor or MBS seriously. Filled with hate and ridiculous narratives about those who simply disagree.

Posted by: Anonymous on January 30, 2014 11:11 PM
93. "During that time, we imagined that all we had to do was be right, present our views logically, and provide reams of documentation."

Yes, the "reams of documentation" used by Ronald Reagan, Rush Limbaugh, and W. were just so bloody impressive. Tell us again how Cadillac-driving welfare queens stole all the OxyContin and turned it into invisible stockpiles of WMD.

You've got nothing. Nothing. Good luck beating anything with nothing.

Posted by: tensor on January 30, 2014 11:21 PM
94. @93 tensor on January 30, 2014 11:21 PM,

Do you really think Ten Years After @34 does not have anything to back up his assertion "If the minimum wage is raised to $15 per hour, it will mean the end of my wife's business.?"

Surely a business person has facts and data to run a business.

It can't be true that his claim is just utter nonsense, can it?

I'm sure he's working on addressing my questions @51 & @52. In case he lost them in the Crazy Person storm of comments, here they are again:

1. How many employees (not contractors) does your wife currently employee for less than $15/HR?

2. Describe the position (like a job posting) of the highest paid but under $15/HR employee. What are the skills, qualifications and expected work schedule?

3. What was the total gross salary of under $15/HR employees for 2013?

4. What was your wife's business 2013 net income?

5. What was the annual attrition rate for 2011, 2012 and 2013 of all employees paid under $15/HR?

I look forward to an informed discussion with business person, Ten Years Afer.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on January 31, 2014 05:04 AM
95. tc @2, thank you for another well-written comment. Per usual, I will now disagree with most of what you wrote. :-)

To the point about overcrowded, overpriced cities, I recall attending a conference of development authorities, one Saturday afternoon at UW, more than fifteen years ago. One officer from rural Washington talked about how much they liked to encourage devopment of software companies, because such firms typically required little in the way of startup capital or local infrastructure, but could bring wealth to small communities. This goes back to the point I made about importing talent, and how counting on doing it forever is not a good plan.

Another argument for big cities is the need for creative teams to meet in person. In my engineering office, we are all masters of telephone, e-mail, virtual meeting, and instant message. We also went through a long period of dislocation, in part because we renovated our offices. We counted down the days until we were all under one roof again, so we could meet in person, overhear conversations in the hallway, and hold quick meetings in small groups -- we even built small "conversation rooms" for 2-4 persons apiece, when we renovated, for the purpose of quick collaboration. Sometimes, you just have to get the right people into the same room at the same time, and dispersal prevents this critical function.

Finally, you are right: we'll always have low-wage labor. How do we deal with this? We've tried workers' dormitories, slums, and housing projects; each has failed. Raising wages works -- as MikeBoyScout noted, it worked for Henry Ford -- and it can work for us, too.

Again, thanks for your well-written and thought-provoking comment.

Posted by: tensor on February 1, 2014 02:40 PM
96. I oppose the $15 an hour minimum wage, not for the same reasons that a greedy CEO with the Fortune 500 would oppose it, but rather for humanitarian reasons. Do we need a minimum wage? Yes! Of course! But this proposed wage-hike is like the dog chasing its tail because it will set off a round of inflation in which the value of the dollar will fail to keep pace. INFLATION IS A MAJOR CAUSE OF POVERTY.

A $15 minimum wage is over twice the federal minimum of $7.25, and Washington already has the highest minimum wage of any state: $9.32 per hour. The $15 minimum wage has been proposed by Council member, Kshama Sawant, a socialist and relative new-comer to Seattle; and it is a very ill-conceived idea because it will lift one segment of society at the expense of so many others and will wreak havoc with our city. This increase in the minimum wage will be matched with inflation that will devastate so many people who are economically down-ladder from minimum wage workers.

The socialist misconception is that everyone is either a capitalist or a laborer: a well-to-do employer or an employee receiving paychecks on a regular basis. It would not surprise me to learn that half the people in this country don't fit into this employer/employee relationship. This may include struggling artists, writers, craftspeople, historians, musicians looking for a gig, artisans of all kinds, and caregivers tending to elderly or disabled family members. It includes self-employed people trying to eke out an honest living. It also includes out-of-work laborers seeking employment; and this hike in the minimum wage would throw a lot more people into that category.

The $15 minimum wage will be very bad for retired people on fixed incomes, especially the elderly living on just social security. Social security comes from the federal government, so this hike in the municipal minimum wage would not be matched with an increase in social security benefits. Many retired Seattleites worked when the minimum wage and cost of living were much lower, and may be forced from their homes due to the inflation this wage hike will cause.

A minimum wage worker in Seattle can currently earn nearly $19,400 per year. A lot of skilled workers from the above-mentioned categories don't make this much because they don't have an employer and are considered self-employed. At $15 per hour, a minimum wage worker would make over $31,000 per year. This would be so unfair to elderly people living on a few thousand dollars per year social security. This hike in the minimum wage could create an insurmountable economic gap between generations.

Small businesses will suffer and even fail with this 60% wage hike. When small businesses fail, it transfers more power to the big corporations that can withstand this wage increase. Not all employers are wealthy capitalists. Some even have to settle for less income than what they pay their employees just to stay in business. Socialism does not take this into account. Karl Marx may have had some good ideas for his time (1818-1883) but his world was so different from today's world in which small businesses have to compete with global monstrosities.

Even the segment of society that would benefit by this wage hike would not benefit for long, owing to subsequent inflation. This increase would not only be the dog chasing its tail but possibly catching it and biting it off. And this proposed wage hike with its corresponding inflation will reach deep into the pockets of even the middle class.

Also, becoming the Maximum Minimum Wage capital of the nation will bring droves of unskilled laborers here, competing against Seattleites for jobs and housing. This will further fuel inflation and cause more unemployment, poverty and homelessness. Just as millions of illegal immigrants have entered the U.S. seeking higher wages, so, too, will people migrate to Seattle seeking higher wages. Please don't misinterpret this as a racist statement. I'm just trying to argue that people go where they think the money is: think "gold rush."

In recent decades, Washington State has had to cope with more than its share of population growth, so much so that we have gone from seven Congressional districts to ten in just thirty years. In the 80's, Californians came here in droves and drove up the cost of real estate, which doubled and redoubled in short time and have caused traffic problems to which we were not previously accustomed here. We don't need more population growth. We need to revive the spirit of Emmett Watson's "Lesser Seattle." I, for one, would gladly give back these three congressional districts to the states from whence they came if they would also take back their people.

Since raising the minimum wage is not the solution to the disparity between economic classes, then what is? The answer: We must stop inflation and stop population growth and this means we must reject the $15 minimum wage.

Since Washington already has the highest minimum wage in the country, why has Sawant chosen to pick on our city? She does not know or care about the history of Seattle, as do those of us who have been here for many decades. And I personally resent someone moving here with the arrogance to try to take over our city. If you choose to move here and don't like the city the way it is, then just keep moving. There's something to be said for electing native son/native daughter. This said, I expect that the minimum wage will increase to $15 because voters tend not to look beneath the slick surface to the consequences of their votes.

About me: I began working straight out of childhood and have often worked seven days a week. This has included highly schooled and skilled work in the fine arts, menial labor work, teaching, sales work, and more. I am currently a caregiver for a disabled family member (unpaid, of course). I have never had an annual income of even $19,400 (current minimum wage) let alone over $31,000 (proposed minimum wage). Where do young, inexperienced people get off thinking that they are entitled to have so much more than those of us reaching the other end of our lives? Again, the $15 minimum wage may create a gap between younger generations making $31,000 per year and older generations living on a few thousand a year in social security..

Summer's Eve

Posted by: Summer's Eve on February 1, 2014 03:24 PM
97. Hey! This is kind of off topic but I need some help from an established blog.
Is it hard to set up your own blog? I'm not very techincal but I can
figure things out pretty fast. I'm thinking about
creating my own but I'm not sure where to start. Do you have any tips or
suggestions? Thanks

Posted by: bluehost reviews on February 1, 2014 04:04 PM
98. @96 Summer's Eve on February 1, 2014 03:24 PM,

First off, neither the state of Washington nor the US as a whole is suffering from inflation. To the contrary, those who labor for the minimum wage are suffering from insufficient income, whilst many of their employers are seeing record profits

There's absolutely no evidence to support your assumption that increases in the minimum wage cause a significant increase in inflation.
To the contrary there are economic surveys which have looked into your fear and shown it to be completely unfounded.

Here's one peer reviewed paper from The Institute for the Study of Labor (IZA) in Bonn.
The Effect of the Minimum Wage on Prices

CONCLUSION

Despite the different methodologies, data periods and data sources, most studies found that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%. This is a small effect. in his survey remarks, "the limited price data suggest that, if anything, prices rise after a minimum wage increase". The overall reading of the above evidence on price effects, together with the evidence in the literature on wages and employment effects is that the minimum wage increases the wages of the poor, does not destroy too many jobs, and does not raise prices by too much. This evidence is an important input to reconcile theory predictions of negative employment effect and the mixed empirical evidence of negative and non-negative employment effects in the literature. Empirical evidence of positive wage and price effects and non-negative employment effects is consistent with standard theory.

There is no inflation to stop, and your wish to stop population growth as a solution to economic disparity is just bizarre.

Posted by: MikeBoyScout on February 2, 2014 09:20 AM
99. "There is no inflation to stop, and your wish to stop population growth as a solution to economic disparity is just bizarre."

That's because you're using actual data from real studies of actual effects of minimum-wage laws, and Eve has worked herself into a lather over the hordes of smelly unwashed masses flooding into Seattle to take "our" jobs, should we dare raise our minimum wage. (That Washington state just raised our minimum wage, as we do at the start of each year, is a fact, and therefore not available as a basis for an argument against raising the minimum wage.)

And, if we don't accept her premise of population control to address economic problems, how will we ever accept a Final Solution to the Employment Question, which is where xenophobic hysteria always leads us? Please, learn to think ahead sometime. :-)

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2014 02:17 PM
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