Yesterday, while looking for a beer to try out, I ran across a local product with this label:
It may be a good beer, but I think I'll pass on it. In fact, I think I'll pass on anything from Hale's from now on.
But, because I'm a good sport, I'll make a couple of suggestions to them. The label would really be better if it had more information. I would suggest a variation on something McDonald's has used. Instead of thousands served, Hale's could add 100 million killed to that label. Truth in advertising is almost always a good idea.
And while Hale's is honoring mass-murdering tyrants, they might want to add another brew to their line, to honor a German leader who was quite fond of beer. His favorite color was black, so "Black Forest" might be an appropriate name for that addition.
Cross posted at Jim Miller on Politics.
Posted by Jim Miller at August 22, 2012 07:58 PM | Email ThisThen I remembered I live in the Seattle area and it all made sense to me. Ignorance of history is rampant in this burgh.
Posted by: Rick D. on August 22, 2012 10:25 PMWrong. It's pretty well documented that the various attempts at imposing communism on the masses have tolled about 100 million dead (see Communism, Black Book of), and without the intellectually-lauded 'leadership' and example of ol' Vladimir Ilich, it's dubious that the Chinese and the North Koreans and Cubans and many of the African states and the east Europeans would have 'succeeded' as well as they did at launching lethal workers' paradises. With the self-appointed vanguard of the proletariat presiding, of course.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on August 22, 2012 10:36 PMThanks for staying vigilant.
Posted by: scottd on August 23, 2012 06:35 AMIf you want to spark a conversation about something of importance I think you can find a better option. You don't need to slander a small local company to do it.
Posted by: HomeBrewer on August 23, 2012 09:48 AMThe fact that socialism has murdered 100 million and impoverished as many pales in comparison to the evils of conservatism: personal responsiblity, minding one's own business, majority rule, the sanctity of the individual.
Mental illnes is a sad thing to observe.
Posted by: Hank on August 23, 2012 09:50 AMRight. And I'm sure the folks who make and market Black Plague Stout are celebrating the bubonic plague.
Get a grip, man. It's just a beer label.
You guys are weird.
Posted by: scottd on August 23, 2012 10:47 AMOr maybe you just don't care for local history or support local business. What a dorky post.
Posted by: Bruce Rodney on August 23, 2012 05:16 PMBut now look at them sneer on this thread when good ol' Vlad Ilich is 'unfairly' linked to mass murder. Unthinkable! Doesn't make the beer undrinkable! Only hicks sneer at radical chic.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on August 23, 2012 05:49 PM@16 Rick D. I can't speak for Homebrewer or scottd, but if what's in the bottle is good, I don't care what the gimmick on the label is.
Posted by: Brian on August 23, 2012 07:56 PMYou lefties don't think that is offensive at all? Hitler killed 6 million, Lenin killed 100 million. I'm sure there's plenty of descendents of Lenin's survivors who find this just as offensive as Jews would find a Hitler beer.
Posted by: Palouse on August 23, 2012 08:18 PMThe label says Red Menace, how flattering is a '50s catch phrase used by us to describe the commies? If a label had a picture of Mao and was called 'Drowning Mao' or a picture of Hitler and was called 'Dead Kraut' both would certainly be more blunt, but I'd still have no problem drinking what's inside if any good.
If you think I'm a leftist, the rest of your life is only going to get vastly more frustrating.
Posted by: Brian on August 23, 2012 08:33 PMSince I figure you're referencing me in that most unique passive-aggressive, dare I say 'Seattle' way, I'll just note that I voted for the McCain 'label'. To be fair though, nothing of substance was available in '08.
Posted by: Brian on August 23, 2012 08:39 PMThat wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but since you've now weighed in on the "labeling" subject, care to respond to the post @ 16? I'm just curious since there appears to be a double standard amongst some commenting here.
Posted by: Rick D. on August 23, 2012 09:01 PMSure! Once again though, I can't speak for the two you mentioned of course.
First, if I'm forced to really dig in to the symbolism of the label, the first distinction I would make is that it's not a picture of Lenin, it's an image of a statue of Lenin. The statue(s) have their own 'meanings' if you will, beyond and often separate from what an image of the same person in the flesh would have. The statue in Seattle has meant various things to different people over time as well, although it arguably is more meaningful to those on the left than the right, but I would bet there are plenty of people that just see it as a quirk of Seattle once-upon-a-time (still talking about the statue, not Lenin himself) even while Seattle and the rest of WA have become more politically divided since it was put in place.
Second, while 'Red Menace' may be a compliment to some, the term is rooted in a time when such phrasing was the norm and not meant to be complimentary. In this particular case, I imagine it was just a creative play on words and imagery that might help target the growing young, urban, and often self-described 'revolutionary/leftist/socialist/etc' (many of whom probably would have been as anti-commie as McCarthy in the day) that is becoming a strong market force in the area. I hate to use the word ironic, but it fits.
I guess if I really have to dig into what the label means to me, I don't come out seeing it as some kind of homage to Lenin or Communism so much as a shrewd and likely sound attempt at marketing. I wouldn't be surprised if this very thread causes a slight spike in sales if it gets linked elsewhere...
Since I don't see it as honoring Lenin, I don't think the comparison to having swastikas and a photo of Hitler on a label is a like comparison. Like I said in an earlier comment (21) though, if a label were to have a likeness of Hitler but still in a manner that wasn't respecting or honoring him, if the drink is good, I'd drink it. I'd see it in the same light as the targets I've bought before with Hitler's likeness, I wasn't supporting Nazis by purchasing those targets...
Posted by: Brian on August 23, 2012 09:42 PMYou guys are pretty uptight.
Sp, lemme off you a compromise.
Next time you buy a Hale's beer, pay with a $20! You know the bill with that slave owning, indian murdering, gonocidal, bank busting Andrew Jackson .. a Democrat .. on it!!!!
I like this idea so much, I think next year I will celebrate Bush-Nixon-Hoover-Lenin-Jackson Day by buying $20 worth of Hale's beer and giving out to some starvng street people.
Posted by: THE-Ave.US on August 23, 2012 10:04 PMSo? That's pretty much a distinction without a difference. The symbolism is the same. You're really grasping to find some coherent logical argument here.
The statue(s) have their own 'meanings' if you will, beyond and often separate from what an image of the same person in the flesh would have.
Not really, but you keep believing it. Just look up the word statue for reference.
I guess if I really have to dig into what the label means to me, I don't come out seeing it as some kind of homage to Lenin or Communism so much as a shrewd and likely sound attempt at marketing.
So you agree that a similar label with a statue of Hitler surrounded on each side by swastika's would likewise be a "shrewd and sound" attempt at marketing?
Since I don't see it as honoring Lenin, I don't think the comparison to having swastikas and a photo of Hitler on a label is a like comparison.
Sure it is, just comparing apples to apples here, Brian. Bronze statue of Lenin to Bronze statue of Hitler. Red Star to Swastika. The symbolim is the same.
You've done some gold medal-worthy moral equivelancy gymnastics here, Brian. I really don't give a damn if you drink menace or not, just don't tell me that there is a difference between the symbolism on the red menace label and that of any other tyrannical lunatic in our world history if we were to juxtapose them in the same way.
Posted by: Rick D. on August 23, 2012 10:24 PMAs for the brewer's take on the beer, here is the official description from the brewery's web site:
"Red Menace Big Amber" is out to revolutionize the world of Amber ales--this one's big (like the name says!), full flavored and hoppy. Taste one and you'll want to join the party.
Obviously, this is a Commie plot to recruit Fremont's pub crowd into mass-murdering totalitarians. Or, it's an attempt at humor. Asking the deeply humorless to tell the difference results in unintentionally humorous results, like this post, and the commentators who agree with it:
That's pretty much a distinction without a difference. The symbolism is the same.
To the end of his life, Rick D.'s prized possession will be the picture taken of himself in 1985, standing next to a life-sized cardboard cutout of Ronald Reagan.
Posted by: tensor on August 23, 2012 11:30 PMRelax Jim, grab a brew, join the party.
Posted by: Lionel Hutz Esq on August 24, 2012 12:03 AMRead into the label all you like, I'll continue to enjoy the brew every now and again, the ten or so regular commenters here can continue to hide from it, and Hale's will doubtlessly continue to put out interesting beers that plenty of people will buy and enjoy...
Posted by: Brian on August 24, 2012 12:26 AMLeftists don't get that statues and beer labels of a guy that killed 100 million people or so is equally tasteless. Normal people can connect the dots between the philosophy of collectivism that begat communism and Nazism and today's Democrat American Socialim.
But not your typical Seattleite who thinks a high tax over regulated utopian society biking naked in the rain while smoking hemp, equals Progress.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 24, 2012 02:00 AMLeftists don't get that statues and beer labels of a guy that killed 100 million people or so is equally tasteless. Normal people can connect the dots between the philosophy of collectivism that begat communism and Nazism and today's Democrat American Socialim.
But not your typical Seattleite who thinks a high tax over regulated utopian society biking naked in the rain while smoking hemp, equals Progress.
Posted by: Jeff B. on August 24, 2012 02:01 AM..and you all need to get a grip about the beer label. :)
Cheers,
RR
Damn, those evil capitalists are sneaky for tempting those outrages 99 percenters into spending mommy's money on their delicious product.
Anyone have a relaxant that unrolls eyeballs?
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 24, 2012 04:02 PMLast time I checked the first amendment was still in place. Four more years of the present administration and I sincerely doubt we will have such rights....or even a constitution. Time to dump the PC BS and start showing some outrage for the theft of our freedoms and our government....particularly towards a hateful, race-baiting "president" who has unlawfully stolen them.
If George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin (Etc) had to rely on the likes of you two we'd be bowing to QEII right now.
Posted by: Saltherring on August 25, 2012 08:21 AMWhy does Jim hate American capitalism?
Posted by: tensor on August 25, 2012 02:12 PMJim is totally within his free market rights to decide he doesn't like something about a product and the company that produced it, after all, that's what makes it a free market.
His personal decision not to do business with that company or purchase its products, and to publically state his reasons is also the free market in action.
If a company instead had several labels reflecting a rather positive image of Bush, Palin, Cheney, Reagan, Limbaugh, etc. would you personally be in a rush to purchase them or other products from that company?
I wasn't claiming otherwise. I was saying his response is completely inappropriate, not based in reality, and a silly attack on a local capitalist. Just because he has rights does not mean anyone else has to agree with his use of them; is that not your point?
His personal decision not to do business with that company or purchase its products, and to publically state his reasons is also the free market in action.
Actually, much of it is our First Amendment in action, which does not depend upon any economic system. Given the long-standing and continued strong sales of Mike Hale's products, the free-market aspect of Jim's protestations is highly irrelevant.
If a company instead had several labels...
If they make the same mistake repeatedly, that might harm their business, yes. Jim is harping on ONE label for ONE product -- a single decision in the twenty years that Mike Hale has been improving our local quality of life with his successful entrepreneurial capitalism. Just a tad intolerant, wouldn't you say?
Palin
That decision alone would shutter your hypothetical company. She would either demand so much money for the licensing of her image, or sue them for use of it -- or both! -- that they'd either discontinue the product, or lose their shirts in legal fees.
Damn, those evil capitalists are sneaky for tempting those outraged 99 percenters into spending mommy's money on their delicious product.
AND we'll see that same greedy evil profit driven capitalism when President Downgrade slumps out of office with his beer recipes (that he has thus far pointedly refused to share, when asked) tucked in his pocket.
Yep, I predict you WILL see Bambi Beer on the market as soon as he's unencumbered by the dictates of public office.
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 25, 2012 03:49 PMSo, in your opinion, your opinion is superior to Jim's on this topic? He was pointing out a serious lack of judgment in the release of a product that had an effect on his perception of the company. Have you never done that?
Actually, much of it is our First Amendment in action, which does not depend upon any economic system. Given the long-standing and continued strong sales of Mike Hale's products, the free-market aspect of Jim's protestations is highly irrelevant.
Since Jim was speaking specifically of a product and company, it is totally relevant in a discussion of free markets and is not just freedom of speech. Many companies end up going out of business due to product issues that turn the public against them. Some are more warranted than others.
If they make the same mistake repeatedly, that might harm their business, yes. Jim is harping on ONE label for ONE product -- a single decision in the twenty years that Mike Hale has been improving our local quality of life with his successful entrepreneurial capitalism. Just a tad intolerant, wouldn't you say?
Are you in support of cities (not just individuals) that have, or want to ban Happy Meals? As for tolerance, I believe Jim is being tolerant. He is personally against this product and has extended it to the company. He expressed his opinion publically, and as far as I know, that is all he has done. He has not called for a global boycott by others. He has not brought lawsuits. He has not picketed the production or distribution sites. He has not picketed any place that sells the product.
In effect, Jim has proclaimed that Hale's can continue in business, just not with his individual support or patronage. That is "tolerance".
That decision alone would shutter your hypothetical company. She would either demand so much money for the licensing of her image, or sue them for use of it -- or both! -- that they'd either discontinue the product, or lose their shirts in legal fees.
You're right; Palin is obviously more evil than Lenin. You make a lot of assumptions about how Palin would behave, care to guess how Lenin would respond?
Are you going to give examples, or are these companies as fictional as the Palin brand of whatever? In any case, I rather doubt Mike Hale's firm will lose any significant sales as a result of this post.
You make a lot of assumptions about how Palin would behave
My lone assumption is based on her well-demonstrated love of money, and of her public abuses of her critics. You're free to cite examples of her generosity, and willingness to forgo revenues. (Snicker.)
Meanwhile, I again wonder how well capitalism would work if we all went around announcing boycotts based on ONE decision a company makes for every couple of decades it has operated. Care to discuss?
So, in your opinion, your opinion is superior to Jim's on this topic?
We'll leave that to the free market to decide. Oh look, it already has! Care for a beer? :-)
Posted by: tensor on August 25, 2012 05:35 PMIt speaks volumes about the kind of people they are... Posted by: Attila on August 26, 2012 07:20 AM
Yes, I'm betting this commie-celebrating label wont sell many bottles outside the Freakmont and perhaps the University Districts. Let's hope the kind of people who drink to the memory and "success" of oppressive, murdering thugs are few and far between.
Posted by: Saltherring on August 26, 2012 09:28 AMhttp://www.ratebeer.com/beer/hales-red-menace-big-amber-ale/35905/
Reviews from across the country and world, many of them favorable. Free market sure can be a problem, can't it?
Meanwhile, several persons have said, or implied, that the statue of Lenin in Fremont somehow "celebrates" the man or his government. No one has yet provided evidence for this claim, which is, after all, the central point of this post. It seems highly unlikely that any American Chamber of Commerce would harbor many Bolsheviks.
Posted by: tensor on August 26, 2012 03:17 PMYup, clearly it's there to celebrate Lenin's cultural/social achievements and the statue's immeasurable contribution to the world of sculpture and art. Is Fremont still waiting from that call from the Musee Du Louvre, the Rijksmuseum and/or the State Hermitage in Vlad's homeland? Oh wait, no one's called? Hmmm.
Darn you lefty's give me a bad case of eyeroll.
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 26, 2012 06:08 PMI wonder, if I hung a flag with Pinochet smiling on it, would people think I scorned him?
I wonder, if I had a bust of Hitler spotlighted in my garden, would my friends think I abhorred him?
I wonder, if I passed out Stalin stickers to the neighborhood kids, would anyone know what a rotten person I think he was?
Saddam Hussein posters?
Kim Jung Il commemorative plates?
Ho Chi Mihn spoon collection?
Idi Amin velvet pillows?
Meanwhile, several persons have said, or implied, that the statue of Lenin in Fremont somehow "celebrates" the man or his government.
Yes because nothing says condemnation like a position of honor in the public square.
Logic: it escapes liberals.
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 26, 2012 06:18 PMAs I have already mentioned, the Fremont Chamber of Commerce, composed of the owners of small businesses in Fremont, arranged for the statue of Lenin to be placed in a prominent place in their community. This is not exactly news, and can be found on their web site (no link, please do your own work):
This sculpture is placed here in the Artist's Republic of Fremont, as a symbol of an artistic spirit that outlasts regimes and ideologies, and as tangible proof that art does outlive politics.
So, if you want to believe the successful capitalists of Fremont are actually sympathizers of Bolshevism or mass murder, contrary to their own statement, you are entitled to do so. Just don't ask the rest of us to believe such nonsense.
Posted by: tensor on August 26, 2012 08:51 PMMeanwhile, several persons have said, or implied, that the statue of Lenin in Fremont somehow "celebrates" the man or his government.
If I put a Hitler bust under a spotlight in my front yard, I have no one but myself to blame if people call me a Nazi sympathizer.
What the folks of Fremont claim and what their choices say are two distinctly different messages. An axiom I absolutely despise actually captures my sentiment regarding this: "Perception is reality". The perception is they think enough of the Comrade Lenin to honor him with a place of importance in their public square. The last time I was there, I don't recall a town crier announcing 'Hey this statue is just here for the artistic value; please ignore the subject, this murdering commie captured in bronze '.
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 26, 2012 09:31 PMThose are called "facts". I can understand your complete unfamiliarity with them; however that is not relevant to this (or any) discussion here.
If I put a Hitler bust under a spotlight in my front yard, I have no one but myself to blame if people call me a Nazi sympathizer.
If you constantly revere a former member of the Hitler Youth, and claim we should all follow his proclamations, we can all draw our conclusions from that, yes. (Said conclusions may not flatter your moral judgment, however.)
What the folks of Fremont claim and what their choices say are two distinctly different messages.
Your failure to understand the clear statements of successful American capitalists is duly recorded.
The last time I was there, I don't recall a town crier announcing...
Web sites have replaced town criers over the past 300 years. If you claim this comes as startling and disturbing news to you, I will believe you.
Posted by: tensor on August 26, 2012 09:59 PMOh please. Average Sam & Susie Tourist with their children in tow are going to run to the nearest WIFI to find out why Fremont is honoring a murdering commie.
Want to buy my bridge?
Logic: it escapes liberals.
Posted by: RagnarDanneskold on August 27, 2012 09:47 PM