March 07, 2010
Not-so-fair trade

Seattle Times: "Organic coffee: Why Latin America's farmers are abandoning it"

The short answer: There aren't enough Uptight Seattleites willing to pay a high enough price for organic coffee to be a worthwhile crop for the Latin American farmers to grow. Sadly, a number of these poor farmers became poorer after the promises of "economic benefits" made by organic coffee activists failed to materialize.

Ironically, this road to an unsustainable business was paved with the good intentions of those whose grand vision is: "sustainability".

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at March 07, 2010 09:25 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Any time I hear someone talking about "sustainability," I know I am talking to an indoctrinated idiot.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 7, 2010 09:34 PM
2. Ironically, in order to have consumers that are willing and able to buy organic goods requires a robust middle class. Liberal policies destroys the middle class and the liberals that push for organic goods are anti-consumerism.

Posted by: Thomas B. on March 7, 2010 10:02 PM
3. This post is as silly as the one we can expect next week criticizing climate change theory because it's supposed to get cold in Seattle.

Organic food sales have been growing much faster than food overall during the past 2 decades. (The latest data I found was for 2008; it's possible they've declined since, since premium products suffer in a recession.) The fact that some producers overestimated the market is an inevitable part of economics, and says nothing about the general trend.

Posted by: Bruce on March 7, 2010 10:53 PM
4. If you read the article, Bruce, it DOES say something about the general trend: that demand for organic coffee is beginning to flatten.

If understood to be linked (imperfectly) with fair trade, it would appear that the market for self-righteousness is out of equilibrium.

Posted by: gulliver on March 8, 2010 01:52 AM
5. At the rate things are going I'll be lucky if I can afford Folgers. I'll quit drinking coffee before that happens.

Posted by: Vince on March 8, 2010 04:59 AM
6. Bruce, I would recommend that you not use global warming as a defense.

Just sayin'...

Posted by: Gary on March 8, 2010 07:03 AM
7. Jeff, it's too bad you've become so cynical that you equate "sustainability" with being an "indoctrinated idiot". Thomas, we need liberal policies to help balance people like you. Thank you, Bruce for your insight...and to you, Gulliver, WTF? Why do "fair trade" and "self righteousness" go hand in hand? And why does wanting to help people make you feel insecure?? I hear this far too often, usually from middle class men who want to perpetuate the status quo...dig deep...there might be a heart down there somewhere.

Posted by: Lisa on March 8, 2010 07:11 AM
8. Lisa, maybe some people question the term, "sustainability", as used by liberals, because it doesn't work. As the article points out. Just makes Seattleites feel good, I guess.


Posted by: Gary on March 8, 2010 07:45 AM
9. Lisa @7 "Sustainability" and "fair trade" are elitist, left-wing buzzwords that suggest all other methods of production and trade are unfair and destructive.

Dig deep... there might be a brain in there somewhere.

Posted by: KJ on March 8, 2010 08:09 AM
10. They need to package it themselves and sell it directly to end users. I roast my own coffee beans at home (highly recommended, the coffee tastes much better), and pay more than $2 a pound for beans. The place I get my green coffee from averages around $3.75 a pound (including shipping) depending on the type of bean, which is still a lot cheaper than what you get it for already roasted at Safeway.

Posted by: Palouse on March 8, 2010 08:42 AM
11. And Bruce, organic food is anything but sustainable. That's why I laugh when I hear people talk about "sustainable." Most of the advances in food production that have allowed us to feed the earth's growing population have come from everything but organic farming.

You might want to read up on Dr. Norman Borlaug who is credited with saving more than a billion people through high yield crop and more advanced farming techniques that are NOT organic. Organic costs a lot more because of lower yields, and less use of safe and effective techniques for better farming. If you want to pay too much, that is great if you are a trendy Seattle liberal that gets paid way too much for a government job, lives in Fremont and shops at PCC. But if you are in India and part of a starving poor, your going to take any food over organic food. If you waited around for "sustainable" crops, you'd be dead.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 8, 2010 09:28 AM
12. @11 You're Right...Jeff B. Only the ill-informed and the Sucker Class/Liberals will pay an extra price for organically grown foodstuffs. They think that they are helping to save the Planet by doing so. How Ridiculous! One of the major reasons that organically grown crops are of a lower yield is because the crop must first break down the organic material to its basic chemical elements before it can be absorbed into its system. That takes energy from the plant to do so and depending on how much energy the plant must expend in order to grow and produce a harvest is based on that equation. The more energy the plant must expend, the less the harvest.

Posted by: Daniel on March 8, 2010 09:45 AM
13. Before dumping on ideas like sustainability or organic food for political reasons, you should watch Food Inc. for a balanced view. Or go to any local farmer's market and speak to the actual farmers.

Posted by: Joe Szilagyi on March 8, 2010 09:52 AM
14. Yeah, Right!...Joe. In the first place, nobody is dumping on sustainability or organic food for political reasons. They are simply stating the Facts, the Truth. Remember Joe, you're a Liberal. You're an Easy Believer and are a Sucker to the BS fed to you by people who are smarter and more clever than you. You are the Slave minded type who looks to other men as your master rather than GOD. You are what makes up the minions who follow Al Gore, Obama, Nancy Pelosi and just about any Conman who bends your ear. You want to wise up? Then, seek the LORD because, wisdom is a blessing from GOD and not from man.

Posted by: Daniel on March 8, 2010 10:35 AM
15. @Joe: Food Inc. is a "balanced" movie? You mean the one produced by self-described activist Michael Pollan, the journalism professor at Berkeley who has been published in the leftwing "Mother Jones" and "Greater Good" magazines?

You mean the one produced by the same company that produced Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth"?

You mean the movie that condemns free and efficient agricultural practices and endorses the entire spectrum of discredited--but heartwarming--liberal "economics"?

And I went to farmers' markets almost every Saturday when I lived in eastern Washington, and I can tell you most of them have NOTHING in common with the prescriptions of Food Inc.

@Lisa: if liberals ever applied a fixed meaning to their buzzwords, like "sustainability" and fighting the "status quo," they wouldn't be a political force. It is only because they hide behind deceptive euphemisms that they have any traction in society. Here are some examples:

By "sustainable," you mean you want to execute measures which are economically unsustainable and would drastically reduce the measurable quality of life for everybody.

By "helping people," you mean voting to take my money against my will and giving it to someone else, then congratulating yourself on your "charity." I'll give of my own volition, thank you.

By "status quo," you for once accurately mean just that. But there's no problem with the status quo--more often than not, things are the way they are BECAUSE THEY WORK. In your insecure lust for cosmic meaning and "change" of any kind, you are willing to destroy what works and replace it, like a bored little kid with an ant farm.

Posted by: gulliver on March 8, 2010 10:56 AM
16. @Daniel My occasional rants aside, I'm actually fair religious (and raised Catholic) but I'm not one of those scary American Taliban fundies. I don't think the Bible--nor God--ever said anything about political ideologies, liberalism, communism, or fiscal policy. Anyone pretending otherwise is evilly bending religion to an agenda and sinning.

@Gulliver any defense of the practices that destroy mom & pop independent businesses is fundamentally evil. I'd think that mom & pop businesses--farms, stores, etc.--were more valuable than big business like Conagra, Monsanto, and Walmart, right?

Posted by: Joe Szilagyi on March 8, 2010 11:16 AM
17. Joe wrote:

any defense of the practices that destroy mom & pop independent businesses is fundamentally evil.

Great! So I expect to read you condemning the activities of the Obama Administration with regards to taxation - business, health insurance, estate, income - as that is one of the biggest problems for small business.

I'm sure you're completely opposed to the cap-and-tax plan because it will cause small businesses to die since they cannot compete, they cannot shift "carbon costs" overseas like the big companies.

Glad to know you're coming around!

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on March 8, 2010 11:47 AM
18. Well, Joe...Being raised a Catholic, it may be necessary to apprise you of one of the passages within the Bible. It states, "You are to question, question everything for the World is full of Deceit". You follow that message and you'll not be such an Easy Believer. As far as fiscal policy goes, the Bible gives a number of messages. One is, not allowing yourself to become a prisoner to the money lenders.

Your take on protecting mon & pop businesses is a little over extended. As long as the marketplace is a Free competitive market place which means free from price fixing, monopolies, unfair practices, etc. then, let the competitive forces give the best results in services and products to the consumer.

Posted by: Daniel on March 8, 2010 11:49 AM
19. Joe, my family has been involved in agriculture most of my life. My parents farmed raspberries for ten years, my old man managed a farm supply store in an actual farm town (i.e. not the suburbs) for almost 20, and my cousins all owned farms around my parent's place.

"Sustainability" is a joke. As one dairy farmer who decided to try his hand at organic milk told my dad... if not for his "real" farm, he never would have been able to survive as an organic farmer without charging exorbitant prices. And since they aren't within easy driving distance of Seattle, no one would want to pay those prices (or couldn't afford it). The cows produced less milk, they didn't look nearly as good, and the instant they got worms or some sort of infection, they had to be transferred to his "real" farm for treatment because he couldn't give them anti-biotics and still call them "organic".

Jeff B. is exactly right. "Sustainable" agriculture requires more land and more resources per pound of food. That land and those resources have to come from somewhere. Since I don't see the uppity liberals rushing to sell their land for farmers to use, then in order for all agriculture to be "sustainable", you need to take the land and resources out of nature. All those folks freaking out about the cutting of Amazonian rainforests? What do you think those rainforests are being cut down for? Imagine how much more would need to be cut down in order to support "sustainable" agriculture.

Joe, city farmers markets work because you have a relatively small pool of producers, and a large enough customer base willing to pay the premium for what they sell. That flies in Seattle. That won't fly in Omak, or Everson, or India. most people are either unwilling or unable to pay for the extra premium "sustainable" agriculture.

How in the world is something that takes up more land, more resources, and requires people to pay more than they want to or can afford "sustainable"?

Posted by: Mike H on March 8, 2010 11:50 AM
20. @Shanghai As soon as those laws are put in place so that big corporations pay the same proportional share of their taxes as earners under $25,000/year do, I'll be all aboard your statements. If someone earning $25k/year pays 25% of their gross income in taxes between sales taxes and income taxes, lets get the big businesses paying that much as well--and only give tax breaks to businesses that earn LESS than $500,000 a year.

@Daniel the problem is that pure unregulated Free Trade has been an unmitigated disaster. Just look at the ruins of the rust belt. Just look at how much damage NAFTA has caused. Just look at all the profiteering happening in the defense industry. Look at how many American nations freely trade with Iran through subsidiaries.

@Mike my simple point is that centralized control of our entire agricultural industry is not a healthy thing at all. Do you disagree and think that the massive monopolization of agriculture is good?

Posted by: Joe Szilagyi on March 8, 2010 11:56 AM
21. @Joe: either you're morally confused, or you're trying to make yourself look noble by bringing out the mom-and-pop business canard. What's really fundamentally evil is encroaching on free people's liberties so that mom-and-pop stores can survive with their inferior business model.

Yet, like every leftist, you are economically ignorant and you believe trade can be a matter of coercion rather than a matter of mass choice.

The only "right" any business--big (and thus evil), or mom-and-pop--has to survive is to sell goods that people want at prices people are willing to pay. If they chronically fail to do so, mom-and-pop establishments do not have a "right" to survive.

But as a predictable leftist, your anger is directed at the wrong people. You should be angry at the free people in the marketplace who choose not to indulge the inferior business model of the mom-and-pop establishment.

So no, they're not "more valuable." What a bizarre, twisted statement. Is there a precedent for this in your nominal Catholicism? In terms of production and consumption, it is clear that Walmart etc. are more valuable--together they benefit billions, rather than the thousands of economically superstitious elites who pay more to get less from mom-and-pops.

Read Mike H's post--he describes the producer surplus inherent to urban farmers' markets.

Your NAFTA hysteria is utterly laughable. Even free market economists (see Russ Roberts, Mike Munger, etc.) concede it was utterly feckless. And the "rust" part of the Rust Belt might as well be a euphemism for "Unions." The Rust Belt is a Democratic stronghold, yesterday, today and forever. Don't blame FREEDOM--which is what free trade is--for the consequences of Marxist union policy.

Posted by: gulliver on March 8, 2010 12:19 PM
22. Lisa,
See my comments @11. If you really want to "help people" then go study up on Dr. Norman Borlaug, and learn about what it actually takes to feed the world. Organic is a trendy term that has, by the usual liberal doublespeak, become conflated with safety and health. Organic does not mean a food is any safer to eat, in fact it can be quite the opposite. And, it does not mean that it will be easier to farm, or "easier on the planet."

Organic farming costs a lot more, takes more resources, takes more land, and often produces an inferior product that is covered in e. coli. All of that is the opposite of what is actually "sustainable." In the real world, sustainable means that a service or product can be offered at a workable profit such that a business can continue to exist and provide those products. Using more land, more water, and getting less in return is not sustainable for the business or for the planet. And by the way, the planet doesn't need saving. It's going to spit us out and pave us over with ice ages, volcanic flows, and everything else it can and has produced over it's four and a half billion year existence.

I'm not advocating for the abhorrent practices of China where industrial chemicals are dumped in to food in place of actual edible matter. But, it's a complete myth that the majority of US food is unsafe due to "unsustainable" farming, processing, packaging, etc. As with anything, there are better and worse quality products. There are ground up bits of chicken parts stuffed in to nugget shapes and marketed as chicken, and there are whole chicken breasts. Certainly there is a difference in quality and taste. Nutritionally in the proper portions and balance with other foods, they nearly identical.

But there is nothing unsafe or wrong about making nuggets as they have a lot more nutrition than no food at all. And by contrast, an Indian child surviving on a small allotment of rice would be ecstatic to get a Chicken McNugget.

Bottom line, as usual, liberal ideas such as sustainability, are actually the opposite. They are unhelpful, and are hurting our economy by driving up costs. They are simply mythical constructs programming you with marketing and emotion and not reality.

It's only through good marketing by companies like PCC, and uneducated people that believe in trendy buzzwords like "sustainability", that so many are willing to pay too much for food. I shop for and pay a lot less to eat than almost everyone I know, because I am not dumb enough to pay too much for nothing. And I'm in great shape, below average weight, and perfectly healthy.

So yes, if you think shopping at PCC is sustainable, wonderful and organic, you are unfortunately, an indoctrinated idiot willing to pay too much for food that is sold to you in a wonderful and soothing setting, but that is really no different from what you could buy at Fred Meyer for a lot less.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 8, 2010 12:44 PM
23. Leave it to liberals to oppose more food for more people for less resources.

Posted by: Gary on March 8, 2010 01:11 PM
24. Yes this is a contradition in terms.
I am sad that with all the other "sustainable" programs that Seattle is throwing money at you would think "coffee" which is like the main stay of Seattle beverages, would get support and that our politically correct folks would have stepped up and bought this coffee over any other brand despite, cost and taste.
I am overjoyed that some reason has finally come to light in the world of sustainability.

Posted by: Sad and overjoyed on March 8, 2010 01:40 PM
25. The best debunking of the "Organic" craze was Penn and Tellers Bull***t on showtime. Also anyone hear about Sen Cantwells(new)affair?
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-030810-sexandthesenator,0,3177977.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Kcpq-Q13FoxNews+(KCPQ+-+Q13+FOX+News)

Posted by: mike336 on March 8, 2010 01:51 PM
26. Not at all surprised by another Cantwell affair. This is the state of politics today. For the most part, the people who make up the political class are the lowest of the low. They believe they should live regal lives, while being nothing but a drain on our economy. They are usually defective people that end up in all manner of scandal and sordid affairs. We can and should do a lot better with our leadership.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 8, 2010 02:49 PM
27. "we need liberal policies to help balance people like you"...

Lisa are you a victim of an Evergreen college education?

Posted by: juandos on March 8, 2010 03:07 PM
28. Joe,

Who said anything about big business? Not I. You brought up the concern of small business, so I took you at your word. You're not concerned with regulation and taxation of small businesses? Or the estate tax which does break up small, family owned businesses like farms?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on March 8, 2010 03:13 PM
29. Will the "progressives" who come here to defend their foolishness of "sustainability" pay reparations to the farmers who went under due to their lie? I doubt it. Hypocritical liberals never like to be held accountable for the disasterous policies they advocate.

Posted by: pbj on March 8, 2010 05:19 PM
30. I would like to thank the liberals and obama for raising my credit card rate. Now I have to pay for the stupidity of others. I really hate liberals right about now.

Posted by: Thomas B. on March 8, 2010 06:27 PM
31. As a life long customer of health food stores, (back in the days when they were only run by Seventh Day Adventists) and long time back yard gardener, I have a comment on sustainability.

It has nothing to do with food. Sustainablity is and always has been a buzzword in the UN for political tyranny. The globalists want control of your land. Read the UN treaties.

If the sustainablity people get their way, someday a secretary sitting at her desk will fill out a long wordy form, and tell you what vegetables you are allowed to grow in your backyard. and how much water you can use to irrigate them. and fertilizer. It will be enforced by law.
That, my friends, is sustainablity.
Cheers

Posted by: teapartygrandma on March 8, 2010 10:12 PM
32. A few inconvenient facts about the need for "sustainable" farming. The reason people starve and farmland is lost is not because of the modern technology available; it's because politicians in foreign lands use starvation and food as punishment and reward, respectively, to enforce their will and control on their nations. People pushing for "sustainable" farming simply reinforce and support those same dictators.

TeaPartyGrandma, you got it 100% right - it's about control, not about feeding - or in this case, caffienating - people.

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on March 8, 2010 10:45 PM
33. By the way, California's version of the CBO says that their global warming policy instituted in 2008 has been a cause of job losses in that state.

Duh. When the idiot politicians tell you that laws designed to control the earth's temperature will create jobs, don't believe them. I'm appealing to liberals, of course, because conservatives already know this.


Posted by: Gary on March 9, 2010 07:11 AM
34. Liberalism is like a hunger strike, it is a self correcting problem.

Posted by: Andy on March 9, 2010 07:40 AM
35. @34: The only problem is Liberalism is like a parasite which kills the host. Unfortunately, the host doesn't necessarily have to be liberal, just any source for the energy sucking, life force sucking, money sucking, freedom sucking parasite. It endangers everyone without discrimination.

Posted by: katomar on March 9, 2010 09:23 AM
36. @lisa Thomas, we need liberal policies to help balance people like you.

Ah yes the ugly fascist leftist comes out. It's all for own good of course. We'll be made to be better, especially us middle class status-quo loving racist/sexist/homophobic men right?

Posted by: Crusader on March 9, 2010 12:04 PM
37. @32 Dan - my experience with lefties is that hang on to their tropes, no matter what facts they are presented with. They stick their fingers in their ears and go LALALALALALLAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!

Posted by: Crusader on March 9, 2010 12:06 PM
38. Why is it that liberal "sustainable" or "organic" products are always far more expensive? PCC is the most expensive grocery store in the Puget Sound area.

Guess what eventually happens? Consumers vote with their wallets. We buy our meat at a wonderfully politically incorrect old fashioned meat market. We haven't been to PCC in years. The meat is far less expensive and the best we've ever tasted.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 9, 2010 05:48 PM
39. ЎIncreнble! No estб claro para mн, їcуmo offen que la actualizaciуn de su nombre de blog.usefulwork.com.

Boldy

Posted by:
Boldy on March 10, 2010 01:45 AM
40. Factory Farms = employing illegals and encouraging more to jump the border

Organic Farms = family operations that support American families

Factory Farming techniques= create pesticide and fertilizer runoff that is killing streams, rivers, and oceans.

Organic Farms= relatively minimal impact to the surrounding area. If I had a choice of which one I would want to live next to, it would be organic every time.

This is coming from somebody who worked on an organic farm last summer and I can tell you first hand, we generated a ton of food on sweat and llama manure.

Oh nevermind, let's start thumping the bible and killing people for Jesus.

Posted by: Tim on March 10, 2010 06:19 AM
41. Tim@40

Oh nevermind, let's start thumping the bible and killing people for Jesus.

Since the vast majority of Christians donate time blood and money to help the less fortunate and that virtually none (except maybe a few crackpots that most other Christians would denounce) pretty much tells me you are a brainwashed lefty with zero credibility making any arguments you have suspect to say the least and thus easily dismissed as irrelevant.

Posted by: eyago on March 10, 2010 06:55 AM
42. Tim @40: Great! That's just so appetizing, sweat and llama manure. Just imagine all those lovely little e-coli bugs on your lettuce as you proclaim the wonders of organic farming. But not to worry. With the new Obamacare, you're covered. So go ahead and knowingly eat possibly tainted food, get e-coli, and, under Obamacare, have all your expenses covered at other people's expense! Oh, the glories of leftism!

Posted by: katomar on March 10, 2010 07:45 AM
43. #40 has to be one of the greatest leftist posts ever on Sound Politics. It's got everything...llama poop, hatred of Christianity, killing oceans, (sure to be the next big leftist crisis since "global warming has been debunked). He did forget one thing though. It's all Bush's fault!

Meanwhile we ate one of those Columbia River salmons that the left has declared to be extinct last night. It was delicious.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 10, 2010 07:50 AM
44. Don't you just love the left, katomar? At Obama's Inauguration liberals left behind a sea of garbage.

When us evil, polluting right wing nuts hold a tea party there isn't so much as a piece of paper left when the event is over.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 10, 2010 08:08 AM
45. Bill,

Cleaning up after an event? That's because we're uncaring, heartless, conservative SOBs. If we really cared about our fellow man we'd trash the place so that there would be extra jobs created to clean it back up.

Hmmm... I wonder about bricks through windows... That could make some work, too!

Sounds like a jobs stimulus plan to me!

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on March 10, 2010 08:15 AM
46. Dan, I wonder if liberals ever realize that we're making fun of them?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 10, 2010 08:47 AM
47. Making fun of people? Why, that's mean-spirited! No one should want to do such a thing... ;)

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on March 10, 2010 09:39 AM
48. Coincidentally, today a Newsweek article reports study linking Green ideology with hypocrisy, stealing, and pretty much everything we've come to expect from sanctimonious Seattle liberals.

I've sure seen this attitude in my business. It's the Prius driving Green liberals that are the most difficult customers. They will nickel dime you to death, and complain about everything. By contrast, conservatives are usually very good about paying on time and friendly.

Posted by: Jeff B. on March 10, 2010 09:46 AM
49. I worked in the heart of Seattle liberalism, the Central District, for years, Jeff. They would whine when our parking lot was full and they had to walk a block. So many of them were incredibly unhappy, angry people. I worked at a gym, and it was totally amazing how liberals would constantly lose their membership cards, no matter how many times I made new ones for them. They complained about everything. The lights, the fans. They'd use the restrooms and not even wash their hands. The worst were the women who routinely came stomping in late for their yoga classes and then were mad because the class had started without them.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 10, 2010 10:27 AM
50. You want whiners? Shit, look no further. You found their headquarters right here.

Posted by: Tim on March 10, 2010 01:10 PM
51. You want whiners? Shit, look no further. You found their headquarters right here.

Posted by: Tim on March 10, 2010 01:10 PM
52. I think Left and Right can both agree that the word "sustainability" is meaningless, or means pretty much anything you want, which is the same thing. This word, like "transparency," was popularized by the Left but is now also used by everybody, in service of just about anything. FTLOG please, everyone stop saying these words!

Posted by: Quincy on March 10, 2010 10:36 PM
53. I think Left and Right can both agree that the word "sustainability" is meaningless, or means pretty much anything you want, which is the same thing. This word, like "transparency," was popularized by the Left but is now also used by everybody, in service of just about anything. FTLOG please, everyone stop saying these words!

Posted by: Quincy on March 10, 2010 10:37 PM
54. Double comment = FAIL. Ugh!

Posted by: Quincy on March 10, 2010 10:39 PM
55. Bold:
Those illegal aliens live on organic farms in Mexico they're not getting a decent diet or making enough money to sustain them that's why they're here.
Most of those organic farms are being subsidized by other income, retirement, town jobs' working as tourist traps for self righteous liberals that not only pay but frequently work for free or get a very low but feel good wage.
They also create most of the organic material to compost on those organic farm no waste no organic farms.
Yes, there is nothing like that clean robust smell when the first spring rain hit that llama shit to make your day.
Did you get paid a decent wage as much as a construction worker, entry level office worker, an under paid teacher.
Llama farms another silly idea paying $1500 to $2000 to buy one so you can get $30 worth of overpriced yarn a year for 15 years seems like real bad math. You could buy the same yarn in Bolivia for about $3 a year.

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