February 09, 2010
Gays in the Military

A recently released poll of active duty military personnel shows that opposition to gays serving in the military has fallen from 63% to 51% and acceptance has grown from 24% to 30%. This change in attitude, while still opposed by a majority, is trending closer to the views of the general public which overwhelmingly supports allowing homosexuals in the military.

There are strong arguments in favor opening the doors of military service to homosexuals. It is seen as a matter of civil rights and non-discrimination. If anyone who is able to serve wants to serve, they ought to be allowed to serve. There are antidotal stories of the military losing critical skills, like translators, due to the prohibition of openly gay soldiers. Most of the world's armed forces are open to homosexuals so what could be the harm if the U.S. did the same? Others compare it to President Truman's order to end racial segregation of the military.

On the other hand, what happens when a group of soldiers living in the confines of a barracks - bunk beds, communal showers and all - find out that some members of the group are sexually attracted to their own sex? I think of when I was a newly minted Navy Ensign assigned to an aircraft carrier. All the Ensigns were berthed in the Junior Officer's Bunk Room, which consisted of several four man, two-bunk bed cubicles crammed into a small space under the steam catapults. Always warm, it was tropical hot in the summer and we all slept in our Navy issue boxer shorts. I suppose there may have been a homosexual or two in the group, I just don't know but if there were openly gay men, I am sure the rest of us would not have liked it. It would be similar to a few men living in an open barracks of women. The men may enjoy it but the women would be uncomfortable to say the least. The reason separate sleeping quarters are provided for men and women is obvious. Similarly, housing gays or lesbians in separate quarters with members of their own sex or with heterosexuals seems problematic at best. Regardless of these concerns, the pressure for a change is obvious.

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mullen, and the Commander-in-Chief, Barack Obama, have expressed support for lifting the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy and allow homosexuals, in or out of the closet, to join the military. But we should proceed with caution. The purpose of the military is to train for and fight wars. Any change in policy that may interfere with readiness needs to be carefully considered and the practical results well publicized so revisions can be made if the data shows a need. Maybe any problems can be managed as was done when women joined support and combat units in greater numbers or racial segregation ended. Hopefully so but the effectiveness of our fighting forces must be paramount.

Posted by warrenpeterson at February 09, 2010 08:20 PM | Email This
Comments
1. would you consider israel to have a weak army because they allow gays to openly serve in the military?

would you consider north korea to have a strong military because they don't allow gays to serve?

when you are being shot at, the last thing you are thinking is:
gee - i hope pfc pyle isn't thinking about showering with me...

maybe one day the bigots and homophobes will all be voted out or at least realize that their erroneous views hamper the might of our fighting forces. as long as hypocrites like mccain, et al keep moving the goal posts, it's not going to happen quickly and effectively.

Posted by: mike on February 9, 2010 09:23 PM
2. Nope, gotta disagree. I'm female and I would be much more at ease with a gay female in the sleeping barracks and showers than a male, so I'm not buying it. Bottom line? She's got the same equipment I've got and if I ain't sharin' she ain't gettin'. Period. Let her look, so what.

No way should the government "ease" into this by studying it and going with the toe in the water approach. They just need to issue the order and let gays serve. The straight men will get over it, just like they got over integration. Besides, gays have every right to die for the country the same as straight people.

Posted by: School Marm on February 9, 2010 10:25 PM
3. There is a world of difference between being homosexual and homosexual acts. Let's keep them separate. I don't mind seeing homosexual marry (the opposite sex), or serving in the priesthood, or doing any number of things, as long as they keep it in their pants and control their body. Mind over matter.

Soldiers have to live a higher moral standard because of the environment they are in. We don't want our soldiers raping and pillaging on the battlefield. Nor do we want them to use force inappropriately or take pleasure in killing. In order to get this kind of order, you have to keep the soldiers in line with a higher moral code.

If you're a homosexual male, but you can keep it in your pants, then I'm totally fine with you in the military representing my country on the battlefield.

If you're the type of person, hetero- or homosexual, who can't control his bodily urges and emotions, then I don't want you fighting on the frontlines or anywhere near the frontlines. There's just too big of a risk in the heat of battle or in the chaos that follows, that you'll do disgraceful acts that will affect how people look at us for hundreds of years to come.

In fact, it's better just to keep you far away, so that your lack of control doesn't spread through the troops.

Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on February 9, 2010 11:02 PM
4. Who cares. This is another non-issue trumped up to be much more than it is.

It's a tiny insignificant percentage of the population who are gay. It's not like a gay guy is going to rape a heterosexual man in a bunk room full of other heterosexual males. He'd get his ass kicked. Let them serve openly.

Let's move on and get back to talking about important matters like how Progressives are running our economy in to the ground.

Posted by: JeffB. on February 10, 2010 12:34 AM
5. If the people defending our country decline to enlist or re-enlist because they don't want to share living space with homosexuals, then its an issue that is a problem for all of us. I am uneasy about the direction this line of thinking is taking us in. If we start shoe-horning homosexuals into roles and institutions that many people find questionable, then where will the liberal shoe-horning stop?

Just because a middle-aged single guy really digs little girls doesn't mean he should be allowed to be a brownie troop leader.

Just because you live under military discipline does not mean you want to worry, among all the other things you worry about, whether the bleeding homosexual guy next to you while under fire has Hepatitis or HIV. Just because you live under military discipline does not mean you want to endure leers from dykes in a group shower.
Once we start granting protected military status to people based on sexuality we risk opening a pandoras box.

Posted by: Attila on February 10, 2010 06:13 AM
6. Discussions like this are what you get when urban societies celebrate perverts and perversion with mainstreet parades.


Posted by: Saltherring on February 10, 2010 07:11 AM
7. @Saltherring I wonder how you felt about little things like women voting, native americans getting little things like reperations for their entire continent being stolen by foreign colonists, and blacks not having to ride the back of the bus.

@Attila If we suddenly have 30% less enrollment in the military because of this, it's an issue in that America socially is more messed up than anyone suspected, if hatred and religion are more important to some soldiers than duty and patriotism.

Posted by: Joe Szilagyi on February 10, 2010 07:41 AM
8. Joe Szilaygi,

I could give a rip about your bleating and the leftist and libertarian lunacy of several above commenters. I do care about the safety and security of our country and the living conditions our service men and women must endure while protecting us. My bet is the average small town/rural, midwestern or southern recruit does care about moral values and whether the person next to them in the shower is leering at them. I worked directly with Navy personnel for 33 years and got to know many quite well, and believe me, most would rather homosexuals stayed out of the military. Allowing homosexuals to serve "openly" will without a doubt negatively affect recruiting.

Posted by: Saltherring on February 10, 2010 08:25 AM
9. Once again, please note the arrogance of leftists.

They don't give a damn about national security. Our military does not exist to protect the homeland. It exists as a test tube in which to force feed liberal social engineering. Soldiers (and cops and fire fighters, etc.) all exist to protect liberal's worthless hides, exotic musicial instruments, CD collections, electric clown cars, giant puppets, etc. The men and women in uniform don't deserve consideration for their personal safety or preferences. The marxist cob will simply declare his/ her moral superiority, that the folks are knuckle draggers for not accepting the liberal vision, and smugly return to his/ her bong.

The same cobs who HATE our soldiers, claim they are war criminals (a la the likes of John Kerry and the Code Pink jerks) ad nauseum suddenly claim to appreciate our men and women in uniform when it comes to imposing sweeping leftist social engineering visions on the USA. The last time I looked, being a native american or black does not indicate particular behavioral traits. Being native american or black does not mean you are engaging in bizarre behaviors. Forcing our soldiers to accept an "open" follower of NAMBLA (because its just another choice) is wrong.

Everytime one of these "people" opens his/ her pie hole its like listening to finger nails scraping across a chalk board (or reading a book by Noam Chomsky).

Posted by: Attila on February 10, 2010 09:05 AM
10. For those non military types a SGM is Sergeant Major, and elisted General.
I spent 30 years in the Army, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm.
I served with one of everything, and found that if you are movitated to serve your country, you will do so will pride, integrity and fervor despite your sexual preference.
Most gays that went public did not possess these traits and "used" this an excuse to "get out" before deployment. Oh sure there are exception, but those you were gay m/f, we knew who they were and did not care as long as they did thier job.
The military discrimiates against over weight soldiers and old ones. At the ripe old age of 55, they told me good bye. So on my last Physical Training test, I took the scores from the 18-25 group and applied the criteria to my score and was in the top five in my Brigade. Hung the score card on my office door and left it the day I was forced to retire.
I mention all this only as an example where the military has rules and will continue to have rules that affect just more than gays.
What I think is the salient point is that we need soldiers and need "good ones".
As I told one my peers when this topic came up, I would rather have a hard core gay soldier in my foxhole than a straight pussy.

Posted by: Retired SGM on February 10, 2010 09:19 AM
11. I am surprised how many homosexuals are on this site. No way shape or form do the vast majority of military men want to serve with a homosexual. That is why the have a habit of disappearing off ships and not surviving fire fights.

Homosexual behavior is putrid to most people. They had to change the name to "gay" to get people to forget about the putrid things they do.

Posted by: Brer Fox on February 10, 2010 09:51 AM
12. [M]aybe one day the bigots and homophobes will all be voted out or at least realize that their erroneous views hamper the might of our fighting forces.

I welcome your advocacy of voting President Obama out of office in 2012, mike, as he is opposed to both gay marriage and gays serving openly in the military; 2 views you champion. He's the commander in chief (albeit being completely ignorant of how to spell 'corps' correctly) and with the stroke of a pen, could end "don't ask, don't tell" at any time. Apparently that would also make him a 'bigot' and 'homophobe' by your own criterion set forth.

...as long as hypocrites like [Obama], et al keep moving the goal posts, it's not going to happen quickly and effectively.

Fixed that for you, mike. Hypocrite!

As for me, military cohesion is paramount in putting forth an effective fighting force/unit- there should be no further barriers to arriving at this goal-. If you're gay and want to serve, serve. Shut the hell up about your sexual orientation and serve without calling attention to your particular proclivities as they are not germane to your duty as a soldier, airman, marine, sailor and are therefore, irrelevent.

Posted by: Rick D. on February 10, 2010 10:26 AM
13. Rick, totally agree on keeping ones sexual orientation private.
I do not recall in over 30+ year of service discussing my sexual orientation with anyone.
As I said most "came out" to keep from fighting.
BTW has anyone else been in 4 wars on this sight, Brer Fox, how about you. You seem to be an expert on cohesiveness in the military.
PS the only folks that I ever saw disappaer were those who dealt drugs, or got a Dear John letter,they killed themselves. Never had to kill a gay though, that must be one of your "war stories". Does is start out "once apon a time?

Posted by: Retired SGM on February 10, 2010 10:39 AM
14. Sexual orientation, in any military unit, is never kept private by straight people. Their spouses get their housing paid for, many services provided at low cost or free, health care, etc. And it's kind of annoying how much extra money the military spends on families, but some families (gay ones) are illegal. Not only would a gay married soldier not get benefits, he would lose his job.

And seriously, not meaning to be disrespectful to the retired Sergeant Major, but for someone of that specific rank to refer to themselves as an enlisted general is just 1) ridiculously laughable 2) a contradiction in terms and 3) exactly how every asshole SGM views themselves.

A sergeant major makes less than a captain, just sayin.

And, I would like to encourage the homophobes like Attila and Brer Fox to continue their contributions. It's interesting to read the odd views of a modern American homophobe. It's like a visit to the natural history museum and looking at the diorama of australopithecus. Most people don't even know you funny kids still existed!

Atilla, you might be surprised to learn that soldiers do not have to worry about contracting HIV on the battlefield because HIV positive soldiers are nondeployable. It's so funny, ignorant and totally ridiculous that you bring that up, though. Do you think only gay people get HIV or hepatitis? I'm gay, but when it comes to logic, you all are the queers. :)

Posted by: AD on February 10, 2010 02:52 PM
15. LOL. Lectures on superiority from the scat and fisting brigade.

Posted by: Attila on February 10, 2010 03:58 PM
16. See, thanks for taking my advice. I love these little insights on how your guys' brains think. You said before that all gays have HIV and hepatitis. I called you out on that and you don't defend your misconceptions (as they're ridiculous on their face). Now you allege all gays are into "scat" and "fisting."

Are you serious? I think you guys are just liberal gays masquerading as ignorant conservatives on the internet, using faulty logic and trite outmoded stereotypes for the sole purpose of ridiculing the ignorant homophobes who we're led to believe still remain in our society.

On the off chance you are real, I'd advise brushing up on your pennsylvania dutch and getting your horse and buggy ready for the trip east. I hear there are a few isolated communities (rural PA and VA) that have chosen to not reconcile themselves with modernity.

Posted by: AD on February 10, 2010 04:31 PM
17. I tend to agree with Retired SGM. As a day to day matter, whether or not a soldier was gay or not didn't seem to be that big of a deal. There were a few people in basic/ait that tried to 'come out', but that just seemed to be an attempt to 'get out'. Several people that were hetero also tried plenty of other tactics to get out during the same time. Pre-deployment, the same antics would start all over again (female soldiers suddenly becoming pregnant, straight males suddenly developing phantom health problems, and gay as well as probably some straight soldiers breaking the DT portion of DADT). Frankly, spousal issues and money/debt problems seemed to be the biggest causes of any kind of disruptions whether on garrison duty or deployed.

If it's an unspoken fear of sexual harassment/assault/rape that some people are using as a reason for not wanting gays to openly serve, then maybe addressing and correcting how the military currently deals with such crimes would get rid of that as an even remotely viable excuse.

Regarding how such would effect recruitment/retention, without knowing what portion of the civilian population that can be recruited thinks about it, I don't think anyone could come up with a reliable figure. As for retention, I'm sure some would leave once their enlistments/commissions were up, but I would bet that most that would use it as an excuse were probably going to be leaving anyway, but just want a convenient excuse. Having some kind, any kind of an excuse to not re-enlist always seemed more favorable (for saving face) than simply saying 'I'm not interested in doing this anymore' once the obligation was up.

Posted by: Brian on February 10, 2010 05:58 PM
18. Retired SGM
Sarge, you got it wrong. War stories start out..." this ain't no BS, but..."

Posted by: Bigbarb on February 11, 2010 04:03 PM
19. Retired SGM
Sarge, you got it wrong. War stories start out..." this ain't no BS, but..."

Posted by: Bigbarb on February 11, 2010 04:04 PM
20. AD, it is not about the pay but level of responsibility.
When the Captain in the company asks the Lt Col in the Battalion and the Lt. Col asks the Col. at Brigade whether all are present and accounted for, they ask the SGM.
If the SGM says they are all present and accounted for, by God they are.
You must be one of those Officers that made it to Captain before they were rifted for incompetence, peter principle personified.

Posted by: Retired SGM on February 11, 2010 04:38 PM
21. Isn't this just a silly argument?

It is a simple matter of equality between homosexuals and heterosexuals. They both pay taxes, they both benefit from the efforts of our armed services, they are both American citizens. Why should one group be able to serve and not the other?

What is the problem with gays and straights showering together? They do so in other public accommodations -- gyms, swimming pools, dormitories, etc. If average citizens can deal with gays showering with them, why can't highly trained military people? What threat is there if some dude likes what he sees in the shower? Aren't the enemies supposed to be the insurgents, the terrorists and Al-Qaeda? What does it say about our military forces that they are more afraid of a gay guy seeing their peen in the shower than they are afraid of our mortal enemies?

And just how many gays are expected to enlist anyway? Not many.

Posted by: Mr. Reeves on February 12, 2010 02:50 AM
22. The US of A should follow the advice Senator James Inhofe of Oklahoma gave Uganda and criminalize gays.

Posted by: Dufus McBroke on February 14, 2010 08:30 AM
23. Well..I'd leave it up to the experts. John McCain once said that if the military leadership told him it was time to repeal don't ask, don't tell, he'd support it. It turns out, McCain has turned into an honorless, hypocritical liar in his old age.

When the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest ranking military officer in our armed forces, and a number of other key military figures jointly address congress, and say that its time to repeal don't ask, don't tell, McCain went back on his word. The republican chickenhawk faction (ie: Republicans who have never served, but talk a big game)also decided to go against the recommendations of our military leadership. Apparently they have a better understanding of force cohesion and troop morale (NOT!).

HYPOCRACY. Its the new word for Republican.

Posted by: Proteus on February 15, 2010 11:48 PM
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