Just to start you off, here's that famous Washington Post graph.
Presidents are famous for making rosy projections, but I can not recall a president promising unsustainable deficits for the next decade. And, of course, the CBO (and most private economists) think that Obama's economic assumptions are too optimistic.
Now it is your turn — as long as you are civil and stay on this very general topic. I would like to see personal accounts of protests, and I suspect many others would, too.
Posted by Jim Miller at April 15, 2009 01:55 PM | Email ThisI was mad at the GOP for overspending, but Obama is making them look downright parsimonious.
Disgraceful.
Posted by: Kato on April 15, 2009 02:20 PMInteresting reading the internet pages of the local rags and former rag. Due to pudge's badgering, the Herald seems to have a lot of stuff but nothing new. The Seattle Times is all over it. Funny thing on the Times- they note the thousands in Olympia, but were able to show only fifty at LakeCity (where is that?) to counter what they didn't want to report on in Olympia.
Posted by: swatter on April 15, 2009 02:33 PMhttp://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009058852_webrally15m.html
I thought the reporters tried to downplay the significance of these rallies by their comments about the lunchtime events at Lake City Way and Bellevue. I think that the turnouts were good given the fact the the major rally was in Olympia and the tea parties have not really been promoted through more traditional media. It will be interesting to see what the turnout will be for Westlake Center this evening.
And congratulations to the Evergreen Freedom Foundation for the fantastic job organizing and promoting the Olympia rally. Way to go!!
Posted by: Burdabee on April 15, 2009 02:40 PMI would have attended one of these but I had to, you know, work. That's likely why conservative oriented protests don't get the same numbers as many of the liberal protests and marches. Still, good showing in Olympia.
Posted by: Palouse on April 15, 2009 02:41 PM
http://tinyurl.com/crjq6r
Posted by: Palouse on April 15, 2009 02:53 PMActually, to quote the Seattle Times:
In stark contrast to the Olympia protest stood a Lake City rally at the same time, which had a draw of two dozen.
However, another rally that is expected to draw a large crowd is scheduled in Seattle at 5:45 p.m. at Westlake Center.
And the first time I checked that article, the "however, another rally..." sentence wasn't even there. It got snuck in later. So the Times wasn't hardly 'all over it' - it had no interest in the city where they claim to be the Local News Purveyor.
Or maybe they are so afraid of Janet Napolitano's horrible "right wing extremists" (by writing this, I have joined that club) that they didn't want one extra soul to find out where this evening's protest would be.
Just over to Kiro's page. There was a discussion going on- seemed totally irrelevant to the real purpose of today, but leave it to the libs and the lone conservative over there, they were atalkin'.
freerepublic local page has eyes out and some quick and dirty reports- 200 in Issaquah and 100 in an unadvertised Renton party. I best Westlake will be huge.
Posted by: swatter on April 15, 2009 03:25 PM ... are you now, or have you ever been a member of ...
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/gen/ap/TX_Perry_Tea_Party.html
And of course, it was red sirened on Drudge and talks about tax day.
Posted by: swatter on April 15, 2009 03:34 PMhttp://horsesass.org/?p=15116
Posted by: Crusader on April 15, 2009 03:40 PMPlease take a careful look at it.
Deficits that large, for that long, will require our nation's children and grandchildren to pay far higher taxes, or to see inflation destroy the value of our currency.
As far as I can tell, those deficits will not impact me much personally, since I am retired. But I think they will do great damage to the country, and will be especially hurtful to those younger than myself.
Michael Boskin estimates that Obama policies will add 6.5 trillion to our national debt. That's a terrible burden to put on our children.
Posted by: Jim Miller on April 15, 2009 04:20 PMBeyond that, nobody with any sense believes taxes are going to go down. With deficits like these, Obama will use that or some other crisis as an excuse to increase taxes on pretty much everyone.
One should never waste a good crisis, after all.
Posted by: Kato on April 15, 2009 04:20 PMFor example, when I attended the protest in Olympia in 2005 regarding the improperly counted provisionals in the 2004 gubernatorial race, there were union goons bussed in to attend and counter the normal citizens as mentioned above. The normal citizens behaved as today, with respect and civility. The union goons jeered loudly and tried to incite a reaction from the rest of the crowd. Fortunately, the WSP was smart enough to keep themselves between the union goons and the rest of the respectful audience.
There is a growing movement of everyday people, both Democrats and Republicans, who are unconvinced that massive new spending will create a long lasting improvement in the economy. And it should be noted, that in neither the Carter, nor Clinton presidencies, and for that matter even Bush, were there protests of this magnitude so immediately after inauguration.
The inconvenient truth for the left, is that there is real unrest amongst those not simply won over by Pres. Obama's flowery rhetoric and mastery of the cadence of actually eloquent orators.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 15, 2009 04:22 PMFor someone who grew up going to leftist protests these events are more than refreshing and inspiring. For my part I hope this is the start of a grassroots effort to reclaim the Republican Party from the mushy moderates.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on April 15, 2009 04:23 PMWhine all you want about the stimulus package, but the real storm looming on the horizon has nothing to do with short-term economic stimulus. In fact, I'd argue that decimating our economy and banking systems right before that tidal wave is about to rush in is probably the dumbest thing you could do. Nothing like letting banks fail to decimate retirement income, and make the elderly dependent on government to survive!
1. "Americans pay too much in taxes." Wrong: The United States has the lowest taxes of all developed nations.
2. "The rich pay too much! The top ten percent of income earners pay over 72 percent of all income taxes!" Misleading: The main reason the rich pay such a large percent is they've become so much richer than the bottom 90 percent in recent years. If you look at what they pay as individuals -- the percent of their incomes over and above the highest rate below them -- you'll see a steady decline over the years. When Republican Dwight Eisenhower was president, the marginal rate on the highest earners was 91 percent (after deductions and tax credits, closer to 50 percent); by 1980 it was still up there, at 70 percent (an effective rate of closer to 45 percent); under Bill Clinton, it was 38 percent (an effective rate closer to 28 percent).
Look at the after-tax earnings of families and you'll see what's really going on. Between 1980 and 2000, the after-tax earnings of families at the top rose more than 150 percent, while the after-tax earnings of families in the middle rose about 10 percent. The Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 raised the after-tax incomes of most Americans by a bit over 1 percent -- but raised the after-tax incomes of millionaires by 4.4 percent.
3. "The bottom 60 percent pay only 3.3 percent of the taxes!" Misleading again. Most Americans are paying more in sales taxes than they ever have. Property taxes have also been rising at a steady clip. And Social Security taxes have also risen (thanks to the Greenspan Commission), while earnings over about $100,000 aren't subject to Social Security taxes. So-called "sin" taxes (mostly beer and cigarettes) have also skyrocketed. All of these taxes take a bigger bite out of the paychecks of people with lower incomes than they do people with higher incomes.
4. "Obama is raising your taxes!" Wrong. Obama is cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans, by about $400 per person a year -- not a whopping tax cut, to be sure, but not a tax increase by any stretch. Only the top 2 percent will have a tax increase, but even this tax increase is modest. Basically, they go back to the rates they were paying under Bill Clinton (their deductions will be limited to 28 percent, which is only fair). And they won't start paying this until 2011 anyway.
5. "The huge debts we're wracking up will cause your taxes to rise!" Wrong again. When it comes to the national debt, as I've said before, the relevant statistic is the ratio of debt to the gross domestic product. The only sure way to bring that debt down and make it manageable in future years is to get the economy growing again -- which requires that, in the short term, the government spend a lot of money (because consumers and businesses won't). In the long term, the biggest source of concern is rising health-care costs. And that's something Obama and Congress are aiming to tackle.
6. "We have a patriotic duty to stand up against Washington taxes!" Just the opposite. We have a patriotic duty to pay taxes. As multi-billionaire Warren Buffett put it, "If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you'll find out how much this talent is going to product in the wrong kind of soil. I will be struggling thirty years later." President Teddy Roosevelt made the case in 1906 when he argued in favor of continuing the inheritance tax. "The man of great wealth owes a particular obligation to the state because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."
An acquaintance from law school, now a partner in one of Washington's biggest and wealthiest law firms, explained to me one day over lunch how he and his partners use tax rules to create offsetting taxable gains and losses, and then allocate the gains to the firm's foreign partners who don't pay taxes in the United States. That way, they keep the losses here and shelter their income abroad. I noticed he had an American flag lapel pin. "You're supporting our troops," I said, referring to his pin. "Yup," he replied, entirely missing my point.
True patriotism isn't cheap. It's about taking on a fair share of the burden of keeping America going.
No leftie protesters, just photigraphers looking for a money shot to post on Daily Kos. They were disappointed.
Posted by: Tom Forbes on April 15, 2009 04:49 PMNo leftie protesters, just photographers looking for a money shot to post on Daily Kos. They were disappointed.
Posted by: Tom Forbes on April 15, 2009 04:49 PMIs it possible you can see the light? The question is, do you recognize it for the train it is?
Long term entitlements. There's the rub. This is what happens when the control of resources is a key component of government power. The more resources the government controls, the more those resources become political fodder and thus become the train wreck that all can see coming but no one is able to avoid. Government can't fix the looming problem, and cannot act in the long term interest when the short term results in political suicide. It is perhaps one of the strongest arguments for limited government. Politics does not serve the people, it serves the power, and the bigger government's power the more it serves itself. Entitlements seem to exist to serve as payments to constituencies under the guise of "caring for the needy." Even if they are not needy, its to their benefit to "create" the needy so they can come to their rescue. The problem is, government and politicians don't use their own money but the money they have taken for others, and in some cases from the very ones they are helping.
As for your comment in #32, one assumes there IS a social cost without the massive giveaways to select groups of people to whom you wish to curry favor. If there really was a crisis looming the stimulus package would have been structured totally differently - if you are honest about it.
Posted by: Eyago on April 15, 2009 05:11 PMThe 95% will likely not escape higher energy taxes, lowered job availability because the 'rich" won't be investing or will invest overseas where the return will be better and easier to predict, higher state and local income taxes because federal policies have depressed the economy, etc.
But the big that Obama-worshippers forget to tally is the lowering of pure buying power - which is what happens when the money supply goes up so much so fast. That last stimulous package will have negative impact on any goods purchased or manufactured overseas to the tune of 10%+.
This is all a problem of a government spending and that spending not being efficient. Throwing tons of money at things like ACORN, the Arts and bailing out the modern equivelent of buggy whip companies isn't investment, it's a one time handout that won't grow any lasting result.
These projections of growth and being able to grow our way out of this stimulous package are a joke. Anyone with half a brain knows that any available dollar the government collects is treated like new money and old debts are never repayed.
Posted by: johnny on April 15, 2009 05:17 PMMy "tea party" occurred on Election Day 2008. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but my "tea party" trumps yours.
You have no facts to base that opinion on. None. Just stupid conjecture.
Well, I guess if you can do it I'll give it a try too: Obama, before he ran for President was the owner of a number of large businesses where he met payroll obligations and shared with his employees.
Posted by: G Jiggy on April 15, 2009 05:26 PMYou may not believe me (and i don't care) but a lot of the people I met at the Teaparty today were disgruntled voters that had voted Obama thinking he was going to be different and more responsible than Bush with money. They are now digusted finding out that the new boss is same as the old boss. (Or worse.)
As we found out with the anti-War effort, these demonstrations do change public perception. No wonder you and your are anxious to try to downplay them. You're sweating dude - and it's showing.
Posted by: johnny on April 15, 2009 05:26 PMOne way to tell if Robert Reisch, dummo or Mushall are lying, their lips are moving.
Posted by: yaddacubed on April 15, 2009 05:27 PM
Posted by: ivan on April 15, 2009 05:34 PM
You should learn to ignore someone of such small stature (physically and intellectually) as Robert Reich.
The top 1% paid 40% of all income taxes, and made 22% of all income. So not only do they pay a large chunk of income taxes, they pay at a rate double their share of all income.
The top 10% pay nearly 3 out of 4 dollars of income taxes, and make less than 1 of every two dollars of income. Again, that's not a big advantage, is it? In fact, anyone with more than a 2nd grade math education can understand that 3/4 is greater than 1/2, meaning they are paying a disproportionate share of income taxes!
See, when you troll with idiot Marxists who make stuff up, you end up being a Marxist idiot troll yourself...
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on April 15, 2009 05:39 PMThis point is seriously debatable. When has Keynsian economics actually worked? It didn't work in the '30's. It only prolonged the Great Depression. It won't work now. The only real strategy that has created economic growth AND more revenue to the government is to reduce tax rates.
I'm not a fan of giving certain groups more tax breaks than any other. I say lower tax rates on all brackets. Reduce the corporate tax rate. Reduce the capital gains tax. This is the only way to spur true economic growth. Get the money out of the hands of the government and back into the hands of the people who will use it to move the economy.
Posted by: Devil Dawg on April 15, 2009 05:45 PMThe 2009-2019 part of the graph would be basically the same (or even worse with useless tax cuts for the wealthy) if McCain had won, so what's your point?
Really? Look at that graph... Looks like McCain - who was more aligned with Bush than Obama in terms of spending was actually trending towards surpluses until your Marxist Slavery Party took control of the purse strings in 2007 (meaning the 2008 budget).
There's actually a better chance that we'd go back on that trend of ever-shrinking deficits that were occurring with President Bush and the GOP in control, but now we've found the opposite. Rather than shrinking deficits, we have been promised ever-increasing amounts of deficits.
And just think, you can tell your kids and grandkids that you're the one that helped to mortgage their futures and enslave them for their lives, all in a perverse pursuit of HOPE AND CHANGE!
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on April 15, 2009 05:46 PMAdding payroll taxes into the mix brings the lower 50%'s rate up to about 10%, and I suspect increases the upper 50%'s rate to what, maybe 14.1%?
I'd support an across the board, revenue neutral flat tax that combines both income and payroll taxes - but then I'm self-employed and paying both halves of the payroll tax...
Posted by: BA on April 15, 2009 05:56 PMI had answered that, but some may not have followed my link. Economist Michael Boskin estimates that Obama's policies will add an additional 6.5 trillion to our national debt.
We would have had deficit problems no matter who was elected president last November. But Obama's policies are making our problems far worse.
Massive deficits were appropriate during World War II. But the economic problems we face now are nothing like World War II.
Posted by: Jim Miller on April 15, 2009 06:00 PMThe median of the top 50% is about $32K; adding in FICA would mean they would pay an extra $2438 per year, on average. That would take their tax rate to 16.3%.
For the bottom 50%, doing the same numbers, you end up with the average SSI being $1141 and the total tax rate right at 10%. Meaning that the top 50% are still paying, on average, a 60% higher effective tax rate per dollar made than the bottom 50%.
Doing the same exercise for the top 1% (the limit that Marshall stated) would yield an effective tax rate of 23.4% - still more than twice the rate per dollar that the bottom 50% pay.
The bottom line: the rich - so denigrated and despised by those on the Left - pay a disproportionate amount of taxes regardless of how you break it down, and the top 5% pay more than half of all taxes - including SSI.
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on April 15, 2009 06:29 PMIt's hard to estimate the size of the crowd, as they extended from the front of our convention center, through the large breezeway, and out back onto the steps next to the river. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say it was pushing 2,000. There was some local news coverage, so maybe there will be a better count this evening.
There were excellent speakers featured and the crowd was moved. There were hundreds of thoughtful signs to read, as well. Mine featured a quote by Thomas Jefferson: "A government big enough to give you what you want, is big enough to take what you have." Posted by: Zarro on April 15, 2009 07:04 PM
Maybe you believed Robert Frank when he accused me of posting the "lie" about The Herald not covering the event? He later recognized his error and apologized for that.
Posted by: pudge on April 15, 2009 07:10 PMAnd I saw another man holding up a Save Our Sonics sign. I have a picture I'll put up later. :-)
Posted by: pudge on April 15, 2009 07:12 PM...I can only assume Mr. Cooper is speaking from personal experience, but it really doesn't belong on primetime cable TV, and certainly not by a "reporter" with CNN ahem "News"
Give it up. Post 106 of this thread:
106. For the record, Pudge has been a gentleman, in this forum and off-line.
Robert Frank
City editor
The Herald
Seems like you're seeing insults and conflict where there isn't any. The supposed aggrieved party - Robert Frank - says there's no problem.
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on April 15, 2009 07:14 PMThe grass roots movement in the loyal opposition (the GOP) has been lagging that of the Democrats. This should be the first and foremost area to focus on, if the elections of 2010 are to be a success for getting divided government back. Until then, it will be more of the obstructionist and filibuster mindset to put the brakes on damaging legislation. You know, like the obstructionism that the Dems used from 2002 to 2006.
Posted by: KS on April 15, 2009 07:25 PMThe Tea Party Protests have been wide spread, well mannered and attended. They have been noticeably covered by local and major news medias. Federal, State and local Governments have gotten the message loud and clear. They know full well that these protests are from and represent the majority of the honest hard working productive Tax Paying members of Society. These are not the Screaming Malcontents of some Radical Group. These are the Americans who do their fair share and more in serving and supporting Society. Do you think that Governments will listen and do the will of the People on the basis of such rightful and peaceful demonstrations? Absolutely...NOT!
Governments will not give up their perceived Right to Grow, garner more Power and Control over their Subjects. Unfortunately, it will take far more than, peaceful demonstrations for less Taxes and Government control over our lives. Yes, we have the power of the Vote but, so far, that has not been enough. It is more than possible that Stronger measures will need to be taken. Be not surprise when your Governor and Legislators do not listen and proceed as they wish. Expect, your Taxes to be Raised!
Posted by: Daniel on April 15, 2009 07:58 PMWhat I found interesting was that for many, this was their first time out at such an event. Did you hear that Washington? Hard working tax payers are fed up and now coming out to exercise their right to be heard. Posted by: Michele on April 15, 2009 08:12 PM
Actually I think all these Tea Party will not amount to much until there is a "agreeable" act of civil disobdience (sp? :) ) about it. The original Tea Party was technically illegal. These current Tea Party's ain't illegal.
ZMac
Posted by: Zmac on April 15, 2009 08:18 PMAfter porkulus being tacked onto TARP and after the massive budget proposed by Obama, dems and libs no longer have any credibility when they complain about deficit spending. In 2006 and 2008, Republicans and conservatives actually did vote out (or not vote to keep in) Republicans that went wild on spending.
I have said many times, Republicans can NEVER out spend Democrats, so they should stop trying and show a real difference - actual fiscal responsibility. The spendthrift Bush years were but couch change compared to what has already been enacted and proposed in the lavish overspending of the Obama months.
If the Bush spending was so terrible, why is the Obama-Reid-Pelosi hyperspending not an order of magnatude worse?
Posted by: SouthernRoots on April 15, 2009 08:50 PMThe trend for 2000-2008 was quite good... For example, in 2005 the projection was $430 billion and the actual deficit was around $350 billion.
In fact, in 2004 the projections were for the deficit never falling below $300 billion, yet we had deficits under $200 billion in 2006 and 2007, and were on track to deficits under $100 billion in 2008. That is, until the Slavery Party took control of the purse strings...
The projections during the Bush Administration were consistently pessimistic. Will they continue to be just as pessimistic? Perhaps. But even if we're at the Obama Administrations projections, we're still tripling what the average was under Bush.
As bad as Bush was for the debt, Obama is proving to be much, much worse. His plan will DOUBLE the national debt. What took 230+ years to build as debt, he will double in just 10. That's his fiscal policy - a policy of rampant, uncontrolled, insane and inane spending.
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on April 15, 2009 08:55 PMThe people in attendance looked like they ranged from young to old, from working class to professionals, men with business haircuts to men with pony tails. One woman carried a sign that said, "My First Protest." I'm guessing most folks were (frustrated) Republicans, but I'm sure the crowd included a good number of Independents and Democrats as well.
I understand the first Seattle tea party last February had less than 200 in attendance. This event had many times that number. Is the tea party movement mushrooming, or is this just a flash-in-the-pan? Time will tell.
I saw a few people with cameras but no news trucks. The pro-establishment critics of tea-parties in the MSM are in denial about the grass-roots nature of this movement. I think politicians and their partners in the traditional media may be in for a rude-awakening.
Posted by: northwestdoug on April 15, 2009 09:36 PMThe manipulation of the local news to keep any evidence of diversity of opinion is disturbing.
Posted by: yaddacubed on April 15, 2009 10:07 PMIf we run the printing presses to pay off this debt, the inflation it will cause will rob the life savings of the frugal. That is tyranny as well.
Justice demands that each generation live within its means, that it assure a stable currency through reasonable monetary policy and that contracts written in good faith in the private sector and via public contracts such as 401 K's be sacrosanct from whimsical change.
Posted by: KW64 on April 15, 2009 10:10 PMHave you noticed all the major companies in this state going under? You better start getting a clue!
Posted by: GS on April 15, 2009 11:18 PMNot entirely sure about that. Even so, the point is that government has gotten too big and takes too much to spend on things it has no business being involved in. It isn't about one party or the other. They've both behaved shamelessly and our kids and grandkids will pay for it.
We've let our government run loose like a spoiled child, and it is past time to check its behavior.
Posted by: PeggyU on April 16, 2009 01:40 AMFor every business that goes belly-up or leaves the state, 10 new businesses start up to take its place. That is capitalism in action. So don't bother me with your idiotic scare talk.
Businesses are like plants. They spring up where the conditions are right.
Right now, more than half the new jobs being created are in Texas. Similarly, states that are making real efforts to create a fertile environment for growth (like Florida) are also seeing gains.
Washington, on the other hand, is heading into 10% unemployment and companies are moving operations elsewhere.
Just because you don't want to hear the truth doesn't mean it's not true. If you don't want to hear truth, go back to KOS and Horsey where they will tell you that you can steal from the productive forever and they won't do anything to change the situation.
Posted by: johnny on April 16, 2009 06:53 AMOne thing the Times did get right. There was no need for the police at any of the rallies.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on April 16, 2009 07:08 AMivan, send me an e-mail and I will show you around my town and I'll show you the effects of businesses buttoning up.
Posted by: swatter on April 16, 2009 08:29 AMAnd nary a piece of trash in sight when it broke up.
I plan to be in Seattle on Sept. 29th (?) when Glenn Beck shows up.
Igor
Posted by: Igor on April 16, 2009 11:27 AMWhat impressed me was how many hand-made signs there were. This was no astroturf rally with expnsive, printed signs and lots of bunting. This was the real grassroots. Politicians ignore this kind of thing at their own peril.
My sign read:
"Time for Atlas to Shrug:
Spend LESS, Earn LESS
To Legally Reduce Taxes
And Starve the Beast!"
(and on the other side...)
"The Stimulus Is Theft
Both D's AND R's
Caused this Crisis
Vote Libertarian"
There were lots of Ron Paul fans there. During the tea-keg dunking, they chanted "End the FED!"
My guess was that most of these folks were employed and relatively new to protest marches. These were not the unemployed young, naive liberals who attend most outdoor protests.
Two of the five people I talked to were born behind the iron curtain. I've noticed that a lot of the people who value economic liberty saw the other side. Too many people who were born in the 'States take this freedom for granted.
All the Libertarians I know attended a tea party.
The Ayn Rand fans also found ways to clump together during this tea party.
I hope this movement continues! I hope there is a huge turnout on 7/4/09!
Free Minds and Free Markets!
Because the Drive-by Obamaphilic media that calls themselves mainstream does not want to discuss it. They are dishonest, corrupt and don't have to be accountable to anyone and are lieing by omission or telling half-truths. They are collectively flipping the bird to those who seek the truth. Fox News is one of the few places you will get the real story, which is what you said above. Talk radio would also be another place or other conservative blogs and publications. Conservative politicians may again be recognized as the lesser of two evils if the Dems keep overreaching as they have. Campaign finance has screwed the Libertarians out of winning elections for the time being.
Posted by: KS on April 16, 2009 09:42 PMWhere's this Texas that's creating "more than half" the new jobs?
Posted by: BA on April 17, 2009 05:32 PM