Citizens join the smugglers, just so they can get their dishes clean. Criminals! Watch your rear-view mirror for flashing lights. Now it only affects the Spokane area. In July, 2010, the entire state.
The Washington Lake Protection Association is proud that they got HB 2322 (pdf) passed in 2006 to prevent all of us from using effective dish detergents that contain phosphates. Are there effective low-phosphate detergents? Not their problem (pdf).
WALPA is asking that Spokane County residents keep trying different brands until they find one that works and more importantly to share that information with friends and neighbors.Has anyone found one yet? WALPA hasn't despite their best efforts. See also KOMO TV.
Associated Press: Spokane residents smuggle suds over green brands:
SPOKANE, Wash. - The quest for squeaky-clean dishes has turned some law-abiding people in Spokane into dishwater-detergent smugglers. They are bringing Cascade or Electrasol in from out of state because the eco-friendly varieties required under Washington state law don't work as well. Spokane County became the launch pad last July for the nation's strictest ban on dishwasher detergent made with phosphates, a measure aimed at reducing water pollution. The ban will be expanded statewide in July 2010, the same time similar laws take effect in several other states.But it's not easy to get sparkling dishes when you go green.
Many people were shocked to find that products like Seventh Generation, Ecover and Trader Joe's left their dishes encrusted with food, smeared with grease and too gross to use without rewashing them by hand. The culprit was hard water, which is mineral-rich and resistant to soap.
As a result, there has been a quiet rush of Spokane-area shoppers heading east on Interstate 90 into Idaho in search of old-school suds.
Real estate agent Patti Marcotte of Spokane stocks up on detergent at a Costco in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, and doesn't care who knows it."Yes, I am a smuggler," she said. "I'm taking my chances because dirty dishes I cannot live with." (In truth, the ban applies to the sale of phosphate detergent -- not its use or possession -- so Marcotte is not in any legal trouble.)
Marcotte said she tried every green brand in her dishwasher and found none would remove grease and pieces of food. Everybody she knows buys dishwasher detergent in Idaho, she said.
Supporters of the ban acknowledge it is not very popular. "I'm not hearing a lot of positive feedback," conceded Shannon Brattebo of the Washington Lake Protection Association, a prime mover of the ban. "I think people are driving to Idaho."
For his part, Beck has taken to washing his dishes on his machine's pots-and-pans cycle, which takes longer and uses five gallons more water. Beck wonders if that isn't as tough on the environment as phosphates.Posted by Ron Hebron at March 28, 2009 06:48 AM | Email This"How much is this really costing us?" Beck said. "Aren't we transferring the environmental consequences to something else?"
By not using phosphate based dishwasher detergent you help reduce the nutrients that promote algae in shallow lake during the summer.
Personally I prefer less algae in my local lakes and have no problem with rinsing my dishes or restricting sales of phosphate detergents.
Posted by: deadwood on March 28, 2009 08:51 AMThey lose their credibility for any decision making when they continue to do this.
I don't know where the tipping point is, but there will be the point to begin ignoring laws they pass. After you start ignoring the little stupid laws, then you are conditioning the public that it is OK to start ignoring the serious laws.
Or, just ignore them all except for the law that comes from the end of a gun barrel.
Posted by: dawg on March 28, 2009 10:14 AMWhat's next? No toilet paper must be on some enviro-facsist "to legislate" list.
It's all good. The more they overreach, the more likely voters are to lash back.
Posted by: Jeff B. on March 28, 2009 10:55 AMWe've pulled phosphates out of laundry soap, lead out of gas, bad additives out of our food, on and on, as we've gotten smarter as human beings (well, at least some of us).
I understand rinsing your dishes when you put them in the dishwasher requires a higher level of brain function, but if it results in cleaner lakes and rivers it is still too great a burden.
Clearly no one here is an outdoor person, fisherman, boater or hunter that sees first hand the results of what we're putting into the water. I trust you're all driving cars without airbags too - that will help.
Do you run across the border to buy melamine laced foods too?
What a happy group.
Posted by: BA on March 28, 2009 11:21 AMThe Dems are busy chasing plastic bags while Rome burns.
Posted by: Jeff B. on March 28, 2009 11:43 AMThe topic is phosphates, where a reduction in the water has positive consequences.
This of course doesn't apply to those folks that don't transfer their waste waters to others and therefore can do what they want with their own water.
Posted by: BA on March 28, 2009 12:00 PMTake the pledge: Let there be light tonight! ... and radios, TV's, computers, blenders, ovens, hair dryers, DISHWASHERS...!
And NO CANDLES: Parafin will emit 10 grams of carbon - a CFL bulb in California only 5 grams.
P.T. Barnum's competitor had it right: There IS a sucker born every minute... along with someone to take advantage of it... and our pet lefties regularly prove that to us all.
What a hoot.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on March 28, 2009 12:01 PMDDT
DDT prevented 500 million deaths by 1970 and the banning of its use in poor countries has resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths. Since 1972, over 50 milion people have died from this dreaded disease, malaria.
The Malaria Clock: A Green Eco-Imperialist Legacy of Death
Why is it that everything the left does is more expensive and less convenient? I don't think our lefty friends could name a single enactment by the left that didn't result in more money being extracted from our wallets.
I can hardly wait for "cap and trade".
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 28, 2009 02:29 PMWhy hasn't Bambi saved Fargo? *
So, apparently Fargo has been flooding. News to me. Supposedly, the Red River rests around 13' - and is now over 40' and looking to crest. I've seen a few photos - flooded streets, destroyed houses, etc. Terrible, terrible stuff.
But you know what? I'm a little ticked off with the citizens of Fargo. I mean, my god man - quit trying to steal the thunder out from the Hurricane Katrina victims. This year is about CHANGE. We VOTED IN OBAMA. Don't come crying to us with your sob stories about ineffectual government prevention of natural disasters. We only pull that shit on Republicans.
We all know that within a day or two, Obama is going to fly in on his magical unicorn and use his superpowers to pull them out of whatever predicament they're in. At least, that's what he promised us in his campaign speeches. And Democrats always tell the truth.
I mean, it IS the President's job to prevent this sort of thing, isn't it? We absoultely reamed Dubya for it, right? So, where's Bambi and his endless supply of FEMA teams? Heck, where's Kanye West accusing the President of hating white people (Fargo IS primarily white, isn't it?) Isn't Bambi's complete inaction ABSOLUTE PROOF of his clear and overt racism? Or is that just asinine in and of itself?
You might think I'm being facetious - but I'm really not. Now, granted, I gave up following the news for Lent, so I haven't really been paying attention - but this is actually the very first I've ever even HEARD of flooding trouble in Fargo, threatened levees, etc. And I can't help but wonder why.
When it was New Orleans, you couldn't flip through the channels without getting at least four of them reporting on A) the terrible calamity about to occur; and B) the failure of the Executive Branch to do anything about it (even though it's not their job.) Today, the Top Stories on MSNBC are with regard to the Space Shuttle and (I shit you not) "Diners can 'have a ball' at testicle festival." Front page at the New York Times? Immigration and health care. The headline on Yahoo's front page is about Miley freakin' Cyrus. Where are the 24-7 live-feed videos of the floodwaters over people's homes? Where are the left-wing celebrities decrying the failure of the federal government?
Don't you find it just the least bit odd that when floodwaters are rising and people are in jeopardy, that the nation, the president, and media outlets are suddenly silent - when only less than half a decade ago, people wanted to see someone from the national administration hang for it?
Why is it that when people's homes and lives are threatened by natural disaster, it's OK to blame Republicans for it; but when it's a Democrat sitting in the big chair, we barely even know it's happening? To add insult to injury is the fact that your fledgling, doe-eyed president made so much reference to the "suffering of New Orleans" in order to gain the pity vote. Yet, I don't see him out there bailing water with a bucket, do you?
"Change," he said. Yet, from where I'm sitting, it looks like exactly the same thing.
*Disclosure: Yep, I am related to the handsome author.
In time the newer toilets were improved and now do a much better job. I would hope that they would wait on the ban until the "green" detergents can be proven to be as effective as the current ones before they enforce the ban.
Posted by: Brian on March 28, 2009 06:23 PMFord Spokesman Mark Schirmer(http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/25/ford-response/):
"I agree with you about the rantings of the hopelessly pig-headed Mr. O'Reilly, recognize that I am just an innocent bystander in this email letter silliness. I work at Ford and support Ford, but have no idea how the decisions are made on where we advertise. Frankly, as a mainstream company, we advertise everywhere there are good ratings. That is not an endorsement of the show -- that is recognition that people are watching the show. Don't know why they watch that mindless ranting. But they watch in droves. Welcome to America, I guess."
Email Ford Global Public Relations Director Jon Pepper (jpepper@ford.com) and tell him that, as a mindless rube, you are too stupid to purchase a Ford vehicle in the future. Then, sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/asdzxc55/petition.html
But the WLPA doesn't seem to care if their actions cause problems. Their intentions are pure.
Posted by: Ron Hebron on March 29, 2009 05:33 AMOff the top of my head, here are a few others that are gone or soon may be. In each case the benefits of their use outweigh the risks when considered carefully.
Driving a car is extremely dangerous, but we all take the risk since the benefit is so great.
Why are we so skeered of the things below, but happily willing to fly our four wheeled missiles only a few feet away from each other in opposite directions down the highway?
Because sometimes we aren't logical or practical.
FREON: The most efficient refrigerant BY FAR, non toxic, non corrosive, totally non combustable and once very inexpensive. Banned. Twenty years after the ban, Ozone Hole not affected. Human and animal deaths are already recorded from the replacement refrigerants. No deaths from Freon.
CHRYSOTILE ASBESTOS: Non carcinogenic, best coating binder and high temp stable brake matrix. Goodbye Challenger crew. Hello brake fade. Replacement is pig hair.
DDT: Story already covered.
ALAR: Excellent insecticide. Banned. Goodbye Washington apple crop in the 90s.
PCBs: Best high temp cooling and insulating transformer fluid by far. PCB workers at GE have lower than typical cancer rates. New transformer oils have a high rate of contact and relay set failures. Hello brownouts.
GASOLINE: Highest power density fuel for motor vehicles. Soon to be banned?
COAL: Cheapest widely available source of power for electricity generation. Evil, evil, evil, but we use it.
NUCLEAR: Cleanest source of power. Fewer deaths than are associated with coal mining, lead mining, lithium mining or wind turbine tower construction.
YUCCA MOUNTAIN: Pinnacle of human engineering. Empty repository.
2-4-D: Best defoliant. Diabetes association in question.
LEAD 50 TIN 50 SOLDER: Nothing flows better. Banned for home use and electronics in most circumstances. Human risk has NEVER been verified.
Please add your own favorites.
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 29, 2009 05:54 AMTyping too fast off the top of my head.
Alar is not an insecticide. It's a fruit conditioner allowing enhanced production by extending and unifying harvest time for crops.
It also makes a prettier apple.
Just looked it up in Micheal Fumento's "Science Under Siege".
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 29, 2009 06:04 AMIs the water from homes being pumped into streams and lakes?
Posted by: Vince on March 29, 2009 07:07 AMI like someone to explain this.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 29, 2009 09:30 AMIn some soils septic systems can't treat the phosphates sufficiently and they migrate in the groundwater to nearby water bodies. I suspect that the soils around Spokane might be why they were chosen as guinea pigs for this new regulation.
I can't speak to sewage systems, particularly ones that discharge into salt water, because I focus on my own septic system since I also have a well for domestic water. We'd all probably pay more attention to things like this if we had to live more directly with the results of our actions.
That said Bill, these treatment systems deal with different substances with varying success, so phosphates being a problem in some circumstances doesn't have to mean the systems aren't doing their job with organic waste.
I'm told that a more interesting problem now is the pharmaceutical's that are getting past the treatment plants, and finding their way into fish and wildlife, and might work their way up the food chain. You might just get that dose of Viagra needed from eating salmon...
And as far as toilets go... I intend to take mine with me should I move... or smuggle some in from Canada. The big problem is finding the correct innards for the old efficient toilets.
Re:43 commentting about 22... You are sure quick to judge, oh 'tolerant' one [/guffaw]. It's also a very prolific BLOG with intense, intellectual debates on a wide variety of subjects. (Even I, married nearly 30 years have been known to participate and post.) I doubt you'd find a home there.
Further, that particular post (written by my handsome son [so tread carefully little Koolaid drinker]) was linked and quoted elsewhere in the blogoshere.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on March 29, 2009 01:29 PMHas it been mentioned that the amount of phosphate from fertilizers in agriculture and lawns must greatly SWAMP the amount issued from detergents?
Lets make a law that radio-isotopes be used to code the sources of the things we don't like.
Thousands of employees for the new agency.
Green Stimulus Jobs !!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Bart Cannon on March 29, 2009 01:53 PMI was so well trained in dishwashing that I long ago discovered that I did a better job than the dishwasher machine- even with the use of phosphate soap.
So I'll still be washing mine by hand.
That said, it seems rather foolish to me, as I would think that fertilizer is a more likely source of phosphate getting into the local water supply.
Posted by: Cicero on March 30, 2009 08:55 AMWhat I really miss, though, is that Easy Off Bam stuff - the degreaser that comes in a spray bottle. That was the best stuff for cleaning up pans and cookie sheets. Why was it pulled, does anyone know?
Posted by: PeggyU on March 30, 2009 09:43 AMhttp://www.amazon.com/Electrasol-Dishwasher-Detergent-Powerball-Tabs/dp/B0006M80CC/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1238434780&sr=8-1
Posted by: Rey Smith in Spokane on March 30, 2009 10:17 AMI use the Dish Drops brand and find that it works better than most others I've tried that have phospates in them.
Posted by: Douglas Aldrich on March 30, 2009 10:34 AM#53: Of course, the solution is to not put anything dirty in your dishwasher. Then it gets everything clean. With a great waste of water and energy.
#56: Are you in a soft-water area? That would explain your success, while Spokaneites are driven to smuggling. The WALPA that caused this whole mess haven't found anything effective in Spokane.
Posted by: Ron Hebron on March 30, 2009 11:01 AMThe beauty of the markets is that all of these things had been taken care of already and now that we wish to ignore the signals, in favor of central planning, the problems pop-up elsewhere. This smells a lot like the start of the DDT ban years ago, going off half cocked with bad science that got us a total ban. Now without it, millions are succumbing each year to borne illness.
But to the eco-wackos, this is OK because man is the "breakout species."
Posted by: G Jiggy on March 30, 2009 11:18 AMThe problem is that many costs are externalized from prices and therefore we miss market signals that might influence our behavior in rational ways.
Anything with a tail pipe or a drain is often by definition externalizing something.
This means that some costs of pollution are picked up by society in general, and subject to over-regulation because regulation often doesn't price the costs in a rational way or assign them appropriately to the creators. Remember the "tragedy of the commons"?
That's probably what's happening with phosphates.
Solution? How about making everyone responsible for their own waste products and require that nothing leaves their land, including water, different than when it arrived?
Is that a liberal, or conservative, approach?
Posted by: BA on March 30, 2009 12:03 PMF*** O** Washington I will use what I want when I want...
Posted by: hellpig on March 31, 2009 11:06 AMThe government is irresponsible when it comes to NOT enforcing existing immigration laws. That point should be made. They have made a mockery of the Constitution. So when they try to oppress us into taking away detergent with phosphate, let's lawyer up and sue their collective asses... Time to out-leftist the leftists...
Posted by: KS on March 31, 2009 09:20 PM