March 07, 2009
Do You Ever Conceal Your Political Views?
Some months ago, I ran across
an interesting blog, Bookworm, written by a conservative who
lives in Marin County — which is not a place that welcomes conservatives. The author of the
blog has chosen to be anonymous and, as I learned from several of her posts, even to conceal her political
views from most of her neighbors in Marin. And from what I know about Marin, she is probably wise to
do so. For many Marin residents, voting for Bush or McCain would be an unforgivable faux pas.
I've never gone that far in concealing my political views, but I did decide, after I moved back to this
area, not to put a political bumper sticker on my car. Some people in this area don't agree with me
on political questions, and a few of those people are not civilized in the ways they express their
political disagreements. So I don't put a bumper sticker on my car. (Though in a year or so,
I may be tempted to put one on that says: "Don't blame me, I voted for McCain.")
People may conceal their political views for safety, or for other reasons. In 2004, I suggested
— and I was only a little bit joking — that single men and women could improve their dating
odds with a little
One of those reasons can be to get or to keep a job. For instance, moderates and conservatives
in many academic fields would be wise to conceal their political views — at least until they get
tenure. (As Abigail Thernstrom once said, all too often our universities are "islands of repression
in a sea of freedom".) Similarly, I suspect that, if you voted for John McCain, you would be wise to
conceal that fact if you were applying for a job with the city of Seattle.
So, do you ever conceal your political views? At work? On social occasions, including
dates? With friends, or even family? Have you ever lost out because you didn't conceal
Feel free to be as anonymous as you like, of course.
(Just for the record: I asked "Bookworm" if she minded me using her as an example in this post,
and she said that it would be okay. Her blog is public, but I still thought I should ask.)
Posted by Jim Miller at March 07, 2009
01:46 PM | Email This
Mine will read...
"Don't blame me, I voted for Palin."
2. hell yes I conceal it at work. Seattle (where I work )is full of hate-filled leftists that would key your car,call you a nazi or do some other deranged behavior that isn't pleasant to deal with in a workplace setting. I "out" myself to people I've grown to know in order to personalize the conservative label, but would never do so up front upon meeting someone. It's so pervasive in Seattle that we walk around like the persecuted jewish population in Nazi germany and have an inner circle of people who silently nod to each other in acknowledgement of our shared political views. I once even worked for Group Health Cooperative and the medical director Hugh Straley sent out an e-mail after the 2004 election lamenting the fact that John Kerry had lost and that the world would end soon. He was later admonished by his superiors after compalaints flooded in as to the why such an e-mail would be sent out in the first place and did a follow up mea culpa e-mail soon thereafter.
3. Bookworm's situation is THE perfect example of why those claiming to be oh-so-tolerant are in fact THE most INtolerant of all. There is no denying it.
4. I work for a company that is well known for supporting very left causes, and I do get in situations where it is totally awkward because of my personal political views are known. I know now that I should've kept my views hidden.
Yes, and I choose not to engage politically in many situations, especially with customers. Jonah Goldberg does a great job of detailing the chilling effect in his book "Liberal Facism."
By contrast, in the neighborhood where I live, there is a used book store where their views are ultra-liberal. They had no problem voicing rabid Bush hatred a few years back when I went in there, and of course, they thought they were really being community oriented in doing so.
Political expression is fine if you are on the left, but if you are on the right, well then, that's why we need the Fairness Doctrine. It's fun trying to decode the cognitive dissonance of the left huh?
I work with a State Gov't agency. State employment is not as bad as King County or the City of Seattle, but there are risks.
Within my workplace there are only two individuals that I know of who are not stealthy with their Republican affiliation, and they are constantly abused - though not in their presence (at least that I have seen).
I don't think they have been singled out with respect to advancement, as both are senior employees, but I have witnessed where two individuals having vocally conservative views have been let go from non-tenure positions. I heard several people make comments on how nice it was that they were gone.
During that same time I saw other non-tenured folks with very radical leftist views advance into tenured positions. I am not aware of what other factors were used in selecting individuals for those positions, but it is clear that being a leftist radical doesn't hurt with advancement.
I keep my political views mostly to myself, but I do speak out on scientific issues such as man-made global warming. I suspect, but do not know for sure, that this has hurt me.
I'm sure many of you will be shocked, but I always remain circumspect and read lightly with my political (and religious) opinions until I'm sure of lay of the land. I do so out of respect for myself and for those around me. There are times and places for such discussions and not every time and place IS one.
Pick your battles...and your battlefields.
However, should one make the mistake of asking me... NO HOLDS BARRED!
8. *tread lightly
Is anyone really surprised here? How soon your memories fade.
We already have our "re-education" camps in the local industries and government.
Has anyone ever seen what happens to those who argue against the "diversity" mantra?
You will be required to attend courses until you think "correctly" or you will be terminated.
I could name names, but, I too, am intimidated.
I worked for several years early in this decade in Seattle's Central Area for a well known non-profit organization.
I didn't so much conceal my views as simply not bring them up. There existed a very short list of people who knew I was a conservative. When people ranted about Bush and conservatives in general I just let it go. When Bush won in 2004 many of these folks actually threw temper tantrums. It was something to behold.
Liberals are an odd bunch. When they culturally and politically overwhelm a city, as they have Seattle, they automatically assume everyone is a liberal.
In our neighborhood, where we've lived for 24 years, one of the first people we met was the local Democratic Precinct Chairwoman. She asked us if we voted "the right way". She didn't mean Republican. She was a nice lady and I never judged her simply because she was on the other side of the political fence. For years she and her husband held block watch meetings every summer. Once my wife slipped up during one of those occasions and mentioned that we watched Fox News. You could have heard a pin drop. Then we heard, "well, we would never have that on in our house!"
In Seattle, you have to be very careful what you say. All those we-just-want-to-be-free hippies from 1968 ended up being politically correct 21st century thought police. Who could have imagined how things have turned out?
Thankfully I work for myself. And I am open in my beliefs. When it does come up, it's usually not an issue. If I lose a customer because of my political beliefs, it's their loss; they chose to lose a talented engineer and my production/design team because of their own intolerance.
I've worked with extreme conservatives, and I've worked with more than my share of extreme liberals (you can't work in the audio/video/entertainment industry and not be deluged with extreme liberals).
My employees? They know my positions. And I know theirs. My chief engineer is unabashedly a Slavery Party partisan. But he's a great engineer, and likes how I run my businesses as opposed to other more liberal places he's worked. His views are moderating as he sees which political wing really believes in a color-blind and achievement-based society.
It wasn't always this way; when I was working in the SONAR world, I kept my head down. My boss - and most of my coworkers - were strong Slavers. Cracks about the GOP were common and chuckled at; the occasional crack against President Clinton was met with scorn and shouting.
Intolerance, thy name is DEMOCRAT!
HOPE AND CHANGE!
12. I used to live in Marin county, back in the late 70s to early 80s...it was bad enough then...I can only imagine how hateful it is now.
13. The answer is to expel all Democrats from America. They are hateful, evil creatures!
Except for Ragnar Danneskjold, who I give credit for at least being thoughtful about the situation, the rest of you sound like cowards.
It is no wonder Republicans lose, they hide from what they think.
At the least you could support those of us who confront Liberals, whether they are Democrats or the leadership of the King County and Washington State Republican Party.
15. @14 Brian Thomas - let's have a little thought experiment. If the average Republican opened his mouth at work, what would happen to him? He'd be lucky not be fired, but at the very least his life would be come hell. You are suggesting the equivalent of going "over the top" in WW1.
"Hateful and evil" might be going a bit far. However one does have to wonder what you call people who openly oppose dissent, and as we've recently seen, want a new "fairness doctrine" in order to eliminate conservative views on the radio. You have to wonder as well what exactly are the motives of those who wage an annual war on Christmas. Religion and political dissent isn't exactly favored in places like Cuba or China. It certainly wasn't tolerated in the old Soviet Union. Food for thought...
17. I do work for the City of Seattle, and while I have made a decision never to lie, I will walk away from some arguments. Some old liberal friends at work know who I am, but they conceal it, not because I ask, but they feel protective. Since the majority just assume that everyone is a liberal, and do not know anyone (they think) that is conservative, you can use code words, much as gay people use to do, to identify possible conservatives in the workplace.
It's certainly not that we hide from what we think. Only a masochist would trumpet their conservative views in a work situation dominated with die-hard leftists.
I fully support confronting liberals, and standing up for conservative principles. I do it all the time here. Doing that in a workplace situation filled with liberals is another matter. And just as an aside, I don't appreciate being called a coward, Brian. You haven't walked in my shoes.
#14 - Part of the reason those on the right hide their views is because Seattle is INtolerant of opposing views and others at work might retaliate if they decide they don't like someone enough to use their political views as a weapon in what has become a culture war (for some reason, the left tries to deny or downplay it - but if it smells like, sounds like and walks like - it must be a culture war). On a wider scale, retaliation by left-leaning college professors who encounter a conservative student who dare to speak out just once is practiced on campuses without any regulation, so they just keep on doing it. That is how liberal/leftists play.
If the leftists would be honest about their disagreements with conservatives and be able to have a civil discussion, more of this stuff would be come out in the open and less concealing of views would occur. However, it is very difficult to trust a liberal/leftist particularly in a higher position based their documented actions. As the saying goes, it is best not to discuss politics and religion, especially just before an election.
20. @ 14~ You obviously haven't worked in a such a toxic enivorment, so your assertion means nothing.
One day when I worked in the Central Area/Capitol Hill someone parked a Hummer in our lot.
You should have heard the outrage from our customers, "what is THAT doing here?" "Do you know who owns THAT thing?" "why is someone allowed to park THAT in our parking lot?" this went on until whomever owned the Hummer left. Only time these people went into greater hysterics was when the Blue Angels swooped over the building every August.
oh yeah I conceal it (1 part fear, 2 parts courtesy)
Even if I didn't think there would be retribution, only a jacka@@ brings up politics in polite company. No shortage of them where I work. I may as well be Sammy Davis Jr at a Klan meeting as let on that I'm conservative.
While I don't mind honest disagreements with people I respect, the unhinged nature of liberals is to not bring facts to the table, apply a double standard that Saturday Night Live could make a franchise out of, and finally resort to name calling, swearing and yelling at you.
Not worth it. I'm not in the business of changing their minds. Life will serve them their own rewards. Best to put thought and energy into how to CYA from Obama's economy.
You've obviously dealt with liberals, Andy.
I'd love to have a civilized political conversation with them, but even old liberal friends resort to exactly what you note: swearing, name calling, and yelling.
I know this on a personal level. I was a leftist. I once berated my mom for driving to the grocery store. Surely she should walk and save the environment, I thought in my obnoxious liberal youth. This was 35 years ago. I realize now how judgemental and mean liberals are and what a little snotty leftist jerk I was. I feel bad about it to this day.
You can't have an honest difference of opinion with them, they don't know what that is.
Try bringing up a conservative viewpoint at a PTA meeting.
When the discussion came up about simple majority, where levies could pass by only 50%, no one in the room could figure out why there was any argument against it. I volunteered that I'd be for it if the elections were held during regular elections, and not in hidden February elections. That would bring blank stares from most.
On other issues, if I voiced dissension, I would get a 10 minute monologue as to why I was wrong and the other side was right. I concluded that it wasn't worth being shouted down just because I disagreed.
The most fun is to go on the PTA Listserv. One member wrote against the bill to remove second degree assault from the three strikes law. I wrote that I agreed, and had asked my Senator to vote against it. That brought a huge tirade from a liberal Microsoft guy, who allows no opinion he disagrees with to go without a major response.
I stay out of PTA stuff above the local level. It is just too pointless to argue against the ignorant and the radicals.
25. I risk it all. I wear my orange Club Gitmo cap to work every Friday. So far, the majority of comments I have gotten have been positive. One of my co-workers has ordered his own Gitmo gear. But I know I'm in a small minority, all the way up to the CEO. Our company is in Seattle now, but moving out at the end of the year.
Carolyn, the reason you enjoy a warm working relationship with your mostly Republican office mates is because generally Republicans are civilized people despite political differences. Republicans tend to respect other points of view and we enjoy having a sense of humor about it.
It doesn't work that way if you work in an office full of Democrat office mates. Teasing and good humor are in very short supply when you disagree with these people.
Hell no, the idiots in this state, I will drag them out of office whenever i can, they are the most taxig idiots I have ever seen.
We wre in the middle of a recession/depression, and they are wanting to continue to tax the Sh out of us. This country was formed to get the massive over taxation. I am ready to fight to the end to keep this country from spending the massice BS Obama and Gregoire are planning. Screw both of them and all of the idiots in Washington! And Washinton DC
I'.d like to restart this country to waht it was meant to be. And I will certainly join to do so.
Boston tea party is no match for what is about to happen.
Start sending your tea bags to everyone who is voting for this BS
28. We don't name call; a lot of that goes on here on this blog. Maybe that's why you get the responses you do at work?
Nope. As Bill has often pointed out we enjoy the luxury anonymity here.... it's a bit easier to agitate the faceless when you are faceless too.
It's interesting to note the reaction of other wilderness comrades in situations where politcs sorta pops out... like grocery store lines or with a dental assistant... casual conversations where the generalities of conversation make you realize you share much the same ideology. Now granted as a whole they don't get much more liberal than the Seattle area, but individually I don't think we Conservatives are as alone in ideology as we fear.
Perhaps the liberal sneer in the offices of Seattle is a pre-emptive device of self protection! And wouldn't the liberal/conservative/moderate identity polls bear that out? Pew says it does as recently as last November.
Only about one-in-five Americans currently call themselves liberal (21%), while 38% say they are conservative and 36% describe themselves as moderate.
Carolyn@26: God forbid a time when everyone has to think the same way.
Twenty-five posts prior to yours, and I don't see one that remotely suggests "everyone has to think the same way."
Objection, your Honor: Projection.
Should I expect less from a "very liberal democrat?" You can't help yourself, can you, Carolyn? Spare the indignation for your pathetic, self-rigtheous holy huddles. In the end, you'll get what you want. And you ain't gonna like it.
Sharia can't come soon enough.
A few years back I was single in Seattle and dating... I would conceal my political views at first... then when i got to know some about the woman I found that if I did not want to date her any longer the best way to end the "dating" would be to bring up politics and mention that I was a republican.
They were always shocked at the thought that I could possibly be anything but a neo-com progressive. The dating ended right there and it was just fine by me. I did not have to ever tell them that really I found them unattractive and intellectually vapid.
Now I have a liberal gf but she was not scared off by the fact that I am a conservative. She apparently looked deeper but then again she is not a Seattle (or NW) native.
I'm all over the place on this one, since I am one of Seattle's domineering leftists on the one hand but at the same time also a closet conservative who encounters either derision or complete befuddlement when I try to tell folks that "I'm actually a conservative" or even use an argument that credits market forces with creating positive outcomes.
(Btw, there's nothing contradictory about being both a leftist and a conservative, but I guess a certain amount of befuddlement goes with the territory.)
But I reacted to one thing in post # 17. She made the interesting point that we (conservatives) use code words "like gay people used to have to do."
But I'd disagree if there is an implication that gays presently feel completely comfortable in Seattle. I recently found out that that isn't necessarily the case as our two close women friends who have been in a couple for over 20 years recently kept refusing our invitations to go out and try out various dance venues in town.
I think one could argue that they wouldn't have encountered any negatives at any of the bars we went dancing at, but it tells me something that they didn't feel comfortable just walking into unknown Seattle bars and being themselves.
It was too bad, because it would have made those nights more fun to be able to go with our friends.
Just a thought,
New Left Conservative # 1
I may experience something similar and different from responses 1-5 and the bookworm blogger-I am a Republican and I am gay too.
Interesting enough, its easier to be gay around Republicans than it is to be Republican around other gays. Apparently somewhere in the "gay handbook" to be gay means you must be a hard left Democrat. Most of our gay friends demand tolerance of every aspect of their life from others but are surprisingly intolerant of those whose political beliefs differ from theirs.
This Christmas I had a part time job at Macys and my young coworker started talking politics with me the very first day. I said I have been around long enough in the work world to know that you do not talk about that such things at work. He smirked and said I must be a Republican.
I find leftists to be the biggest hypocrites as we can all plainly see from what is happening around us in Seattle, Olympia and DC
33. LCRW: Good post. Thanks for that. My TG friend in Toronto shares your experience.
I agree Ragnar. The iron lock liberals may think they have on the culture via the media, academia, and Hollywood, doesn't extend as far as they would like to believe.
These liberals, as much as they believe they are worldly and sophisticated, actually live in a very narrow minded isolated world.
There is an entire country out there. Liberals never see it. They go hiking in the Cascades, but they don't go into Wenatchee afterwards and stay in a motel and eat at a local restaurant. It would freak them out. A young liberal guy from Seattle wouldn't know how to react when a waitress called him "'hon", or "sweetie".
I'd hate to tell him, but most of America is more like Wenatchee than Seattle. Thank goodness!
35. #26: The reason you all get along so well is precisely BECAUSE you are the lone liberal amongst republicans. If it were the reverse, you'd be given a hard time. I hope everyone reads your post and takes note how actually tolerant the republicans are of you. And how intolerant the libs are when they dominate in a group. None of us are surprised that you are treated well and respected in the group you are in at work.
As a transplant from the reddest corner of the deep South, I have an interesting perspective: down there, I was the most liberal guy in the room. Up here, I'm the most conservative.
In both places I got plenty of intolerance from the dominant group. All that's changed is who's assuming what about my views. I let it all roll off my back.
In both places, civility and an open mind go a long way. If someone needs to get worked up about my thinking differently from them, well, I wish them peace and a good cardiologist because they're cruising for a heart attack with all that borrowed stress.
I see some of stereotyping here from a few people that doesn't seem like it will do much to change the tone of politics in Seattle, nor does it in my experience bode well for those individuals ability to effectively advocate their ideals. Oh well.
Hi, my name is travis t and I'm a republican.
My current job is a union shop and I am 'out' among my co-workers. It is not a huge problem, but if I had it to do over again, I would not admit to being an R. There are just a few idiots who will never let you alone about it.
Interesting, though most of my co-workers are Democrat-oriented, many of them are also openly homophobic and misoginistic and disdainful of affirmative action. I suspect that some of the older ones might be racist, although no one is open about that. I'm neither homophobe nor racist nor misogynist nor knee-jerk anti a-action although I have to admit that in our line of work, females almost always end up being a drag on the work-unit.
@35: There is an entire country out there. Liberals never see it. They go hiking in the Cascades, but they don't go into Wenatchee afterwards and stay in a motel and eat at a local restaurant. It would freak them out. A young liberal guy from Seattle wouldn't know how to react when a waitress called him "'hon", or "sweetie".
Stereotype much? I happen to do that all the time, and when a waitress says that to me, I say thank you right back. I've known conservatives who hate staying in the country, and liberals who never left.
@37: In both places I got plenty of intolerance from the dominant group. All that's changed is who's assuming what about my views. I let it all roll off my back.
Precisely. What the conservative folks here fail to realize is that whether you're liberal or conservative has little to do with whether you're a great person or not. I've met strong conservatives that will give you the shirt off their back, and greedy liberals, AND vice versa. I've had plenty of liberal friends in conservative cities getting THEIR cars with liberal bumper stickers defaced, and liberal friends in conservative workplaces feeling like THEY can't express their beliefs.
(Of course, if @11 calls coworkers "slavers", he deserves whatever he gets from that.)
Early on in my career, I became active in my Union. They wanted to have a Conservative member to try and even out the liberal viewpoint that was pretty prevelent. I was very outspoken about my political beliefs (I am a moderate consverative). After helping build our PAC, and speak to conservative members, I was pushed out by my Union Leadership. I became disenfranchised and to a degree, bitter with my elected Union leadership. I support labor, and the right to organize. However, there needs to be a system of checks and balances. I have often said that without a labor force, business would cease and without business, there would be no labor. The fact is the best solution lies in the middle. My Union went from being left of center, to much more left of center.
So would I conceal my political beleifs, if I had to do it all over again. YES! It would have saved me numerous years of frustration and not to mention a great deal of money.
Do I currently conceal my political beliefs? No. It's hard to once they are out of the bag. I don't do the candidate bumper stickers, but my NRA sticker speaks loudly enough.
There is a time and place for politics. I have come to realize that the workplace isn't the time or place. Work is for work. I get paid to be a Fireman, regardless of my personal political or religious beliefs. I would like to be known as a good fireman, rather than a conservative fireman. Not because I am not proud of my beliefs, but because they should not have a bearing on how I perform my job or how I am known to perform my job.
I worked for US DOD for 33 years, reitiring in 2007. Our work group was mostly conservative, but liberals and their viewpoints were treated with respect.
Since retiring, I have started a business in Jefferson County, whose county seat, Port Townsend, is among the most radically leftist areas in the state, if not the country. For the most part, I've learned to keep my political views to myself with customers, unless they ask me a direct question; like the customer in November who asked if "my boy" had won the presidency. I informed him that Obama was not "my boy" and that I had not voted for him. This customer, who I'd come to know on a personal basis, absolutely FLIPPED! He unleashed one of the most graphic, mouth-foaming leftist tirades I'd ever witnessed. I tried to engage him, calmly and logically, on specific policy points, but he continued his carpet-chewing rage until I quietly got into my truck and drove off. So much for meaningful engagement with liberals.
#39, I was making a wee point about obnoxious liberal political correctness.
You've had plenty of liberal friends in conservative cities getting their cars defaced? I think you just might be exaggerating a bit. Not saying it never happens. There are jerks on the right, too. But "plenty"? I really doubt it.
Another point that might be related. Does anyone think young conservatives are the ones who spray paint every building in sight? I think most of them voted for Obama, assuming they were old enough.
I've never disguised my conservatism here in my neighborhood but here's a little story:
A few years ago a young liberal attorney moved in across the street. He still has a Nader/LaDuc bumper sticker on his Honda. He has some chickens and we were more than happy to buy his eggs on a weekly basis. Until. Until one evening he was delivering his eggs and we were watching Bill O'Reilly on the tube. We've never gotten a single egg from him since.
BS. Some of my closest friends are liberals. I know a lot of great people on both sides, and I recognize them as such. But those same friends engage in the same kind of intolerance of the majority. Whether they mean it or not, they can't help but make casual anti-conservative cracks etc. that go wholly tolerated and accepted, but never be true if they were not on the left. That's the problem. It's exactly like the racism of the past.
And, that's the defect in the whole "Fairness Doctrine" thinking, etc. There will come a day, and it might be far in the future, where the politics are different, if even reversed. And the left will wish it had been more tolerant, and will wish it had not enacted PC barriers like it does everyday.
And, the other big problem with the left, is that I might even agree with you on many issues, and I might even like you a lot if I met you, but your ideas stifle important debates that we need to have. Is $4 Trillion something you will regret? Probably. Remember, just a few months ago, dissent was patriotic. Under Bush, we got to have a lot of debates on both sides. You forced many of those debates, and we thank you.
But under Obama, it's the bullet train of government, no stops until the endpoint. An endpoint that even you might regret.
I do not openly express my views unless I feel it is the proper venue. I feel that liberals feel free to express themselves here in many ways that conservatives would be trashed for. For most, it is with a sense of comraderie with each other and for some, a warning to silence dissention.
I don't put a bumper sticker on my car. Most conservatives still have the election fresh in their memories, where some cars were vandalized and yard signs were repeatedly stolen and let's not forget the Stranger publishing addresses of people with "scary" McCain signs around Halloween, calling them "Hell Houses".
I put up with a trainer expressing her glee over Obama's refreshing views because I enjoyed the class, but when the owner of the facility openly bashed the last admin for the crisis we are in, in their "newsletter", I decided to take my business elsewhere. They have their right to their opinions, and I have my right to not patronize them. I didn't try to force my views on them, I just moved on. There is a lesson in that for many liberals.
44. I use to work civil service for the navy in kitsap county. I expressed my views on guns, politics and taxes and was Ostracized by the women that made up the majority of the work farce. Unless you puked back their liberal crap your career went backward and you got forced out. Happiest day of my life was when I got to retire.
Agree with the observations above that conservatives are a hell of a lot more tolerant than liberals in social interactions. I do not conceal my political views, nor do I press them, figuring that those are individual choices.
But I am active in the arts, though for this discussion I shall omit exactly which ones. No one will be surprised that I see them as overwhelmingly supportive of pretty far-left politics. One colleague was so tortured by the incorrect choice of President by the electorate in 2004 that he/she (you must guess) published an exquisitely anguished apology - as if speaking for America - to the world at large and everyone in it. So much for democracy.
My point here is this: that in discussions with colleagues, I am hopeful for discussions which will illuminate the details of their political viewpoints, and how they arrived at them - since on most social topics we agree very well. I have not yet found one who will even enter into such talks. They have made a decision, back in the past somewhere, that positions to the right of 'liberal' (that would even include JFK, if they knew more about his positions than his iconic position as a Democrat) is so unspeakably immoral that, well, it is not to be discussed.
To me, that is a strong indication that these orientations were adopted in the early lives of their believers, more as religious beliefs than as reasoned conclusions. What better era than the 60s to set up such herd behavior?
But herds are herdable, and when a demagogue such as our latest PC wordmeister comes along, they'll stampede in any direction he likes. It may take a near-collapse of the national economy to break these lefty artistes out of their blinkered world view, but in case they ever have questions about history or alternate approaches to governance, I'm ready.
brasstax, if you're looking for some fitness advice from a decidedly different perspective shoot me an e-mail and we can talk,(shameless plug!).
You've hit on an earlier point. Liberals in a place such as Seattle seem to automatically assume everyone else thinks the way they do. Thus as a conservative you have to put up with the snarky little references and smirky jokes.
It's like being forced to watch Bill Mahr and Keith Olbermann. There is a real obnoxiousness about liberals. They are so "progressive" and "edgy". They are also intolerant thought police.
#18 Posted by Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2009
" And just as an aside, I don't appreciate being called a coward, Brian. You haven't walked in my shoes. "
Nor you in mine.
Read the article 'BLACKLISTED! Michael Young's anti-Republican War', by Doug Parris posted on thereaganwing.com January 21, 2008.
It is an article about the rise of Liberals Pat Herbold / Michael Young / Lori Sotelo / Ross Marzolf to positions of control of the King County Republican Party and the advent of Fascism in the King County and Washington State Republican Party.
As an example, in a September 7, 2007 letter/e-mail to Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels from my 'Progressive' Democrat neighbor, she states:
" He recently ran for a political office on the Republican Party ticket and the party disavowed him. When he ran for Precinct Committeeman I received a call from an attorney in the Attorney General's office asking me not to vote for him as he was sending threatening emails to women. "
Rob McKenna, 'Republican' Rob McKenna, is the Washington State Attorney General and it is his office that apparently made campaign telephone calls to Democrats in my Precinct in support of King County Republican Party Executive Director Ross Marzolf's choice for Republican Precinct Committee Officer.
P.S. I didn't " ... call you a coward ... ", I said you sound like one.
I don't really bring up politics with most people in my daily conversations unless I know them and think they would find it interesting.
Obviously living in Seattle adds another dynamic to this, but I talk with leftists and folks on the right about politics if I feel that a civil discussion can take place and as a result, I really don't have any problems with either side from that standpoint.
I strongly disagree that conservatives are more tolerant than liberals in social interactions, though. Both sides have their social asses, and both sides have people that will listen and learn from the other. Just do yourself a favor and learn to identify those who are willing to engage in civil discourse before you open your mouth and start sharing your belief - and make sure you are sharing, not forcing or trolling.
One other possibility - if you find that everyone of the opposite ideology is an ass to you, it might be because they think you're trolling them in real life for a reaction. That might make you the social ass.
I.S. says, "What better era than the 60s to set up such herd behavior?"
I was there. 60's liberals have ruled the roost for many years. The same people who called the police "pigs", and lived in communes later invented political correctness and infected nearly every institution in the country.
These aren't enjoyable people to be around, and they've generally made life more miserable.
Here's a small example:
When I entered the working world it was common for people to have a drink at lunchtime if they wanted. Maybe a beer, or a glass of wine. It was relaxing, it was civilized. I don't remember anyone getting drunk. Then uptight politically correct liberals took over and now almost any business will fire you for having a beer at lunchtime.
It's ironic. Liberals are fond of accusing conservatives of religious puritanism. Look what they've done.
50. I voice my political association at every turn in my life.Being retired at 44 gives me that privilage..Favorite pass times are rearranging books at Barnes and nobel..putting pro-left mags at grocery store counter backwards..yelling at any leftist protesters(Bush Years)..to giving the Bird to Suburu drivers...to making smartass comments when standing in lines...but I'm kinda sick to begin with :)
Brian @#48. I should have guessed.
You "Reagan Wing" folks ought to act more like him. Instead you call the current Republican leadership in King County and the State "fascists". You act like leftists. You can't mount a rational argument, so you resort to personal attacks.
Ronald Reagan would be more than annoyed with you people. You don't get it at all.
Off topic? Certainly. Did it need to be said? Absolutely.
Now let's return to our regular programming.
Some of us choice to conceal our political affiliation so we're not associated with the likes of Brian Thomas.
There's a reason the caucus celebrated when you got your ass handed to you by Derdowski. And it certainly wasn't because they liked him.
I remember a line from TV's "All in the Family": Gloria was chastizing her husband Mike ("the meathead") for arguing with her dad Archie.
Her line was that "You know you are not supposed to talk about religion, sex, politics or anything else" when dealing with Archie.
I found that works best with coworkers and neighbors that are not close friends.
54. In Seattle LCRW it's entirely ok to talk about religion, sex, politics or whatever as long as you are a liberal. Needless to say I tend to avoid political discussions, etc. with people in this territory.
#52 Posted by Bill Cruchon on March 8, 2009
" You "Reagan Wing" folks ...."
I, nor anyone else, has said, as you put it, I was ""Reagan Wing" folks ". Having a article posted on thereaganwing.com website about someone does not make them " "Reagan Wing" folks ".
If it did, I think King County Republican Party Chairman Lori Sotelo would be surprised, and alarmed, that you would think she is, what you consider, ""Reagan Wing" folks ".
I did not " call the current Republican leadership in King County and the State "fascists" ", I stated their methodology is Fascist, as in 'the Fascist wing of the King County and Washington State Republican Party. If that makes them Fascists, so be it.
I " call " them Liberals and leftists, which they demonstrate they are.
As for " let's return to our regular programming ", that would be you. I have not been ' programed ' as you evidently have. Which is why "You don't get it at all. ".
#53 Posted by jimg on March 8, 2009
" There's a reason the caucus celebrated when you got your ass handed to you by Derdowski. And it certainly wasn't because they liked him. "
Different Brian Thomas. Try again. Try, try, try again.
Please stop the personal insults and vulgar language.
This has been a moderately interesting discussion so far. Don't ruin it for others. And, as always, keep it family friendly.
@43: It's certainly not BS. I spent time in Texas... and you definitely don't feel like you're in the majority in Texas if you're a liberal. You don't put Democratic bumper stickers on your car, either. Likewise, I have been at plenty of events where people don't know that I'm liberal and tend to express certain views because I'm clean-cut, professional, white, and don't look the part of some kind of stereotypical liberal even in Seattle.
Does it mean that there aren't plenty of jackass left-wingers? I won't deny that's the case in the slightest. I think it's disingenuous to start ranting about liberals when you have plenty of folks (here included) that are willing to say that "liberalism is a disorder", or that liberal hate America. Are these cracks acceptable or "tolerant"? Hardly.
And dissent and debate ARE patriotic, but there needs to be a point to it, and yelling "socialism" and calling it a day just isn't constructive.
@44: Most conservatives still have the election fresh in their memories, where some cars were vandalized and yard signs were repeatedly stolen and let's not forget the Stranger publishing addresses of people with "scary" McCain signs around Halloween, calling them "Hell Houses".
To which conservatives responded by publishing the names and addresses of the staff of The Stranger and calling in death threats.
@45: I expressed my views on guns, politics and taxes and was Ostracized by the women that made up the majority of the work farce. Unless you puked back their liberal crap your career went backward and you got forced out.
Sounds like you were more ostracized because you were bitter and misogynist.
@50: When I entered the working world it was common for people to have a drink at lunchtime if they wanted. Maybe a beer, or a glass of wine. It was relaxing, it was civilized. I don't remember anyone getting drunk. Then uptight politically correct liberals took over and now almost any business will fire you for having a beer at lunchtime.
No... that's called "being professional". If you showed up at work drunk, I'd fire you too. Stop blaming "liberals" for every little bitter gripe you have about the world.
@ 43 Until one evening he was delivering his eggs and we were watching Bill O'Reilly on the tube. We've never gotten a single egg from him since.
-Posted by Bill Cruchon at March 8, 2009 09:06 AM
With apologies toward the serious tone of Bill' post and the subject at large... but NO MORE LIBERAL EGGS???! .. there's a loss.
Favorite pass times are rearranging books at Barnes and nobel -Posted by Hellpig at March 8, 2009 10:43 AM
I do that at Costco! "Way to be subtle, Mom", says my son. You betcha!
One would think that Seattle's number one country and western bar, The Little Red Hen, might be an island of sanctuary for a red-neck or at least a moderate conservative in this SEA of liberalism.
Not the least bit so. When the music volume lowers during the breaks, the comeraderie is unviversally, Bush was an asshole, Obama is dreamy.
A few years back one of my Hen acquaintences approached me using a tone of aghast admomishment.
She asked, "Bart so and so said that you are a republican. Is it true ?"
I replied, "certainly not! Republicans are WAY too liberal for MY tastes !!".
Even though I blew cover, the other patrons still talk to me, but they wisely steer clear of discussing politics with me.
Liberals just need to respect that their opinions are not universally held, and then they can be almost as polite as conservatives in social situations.
61. If your side keeps pushing it, we will have a full blown Civil War that will make the original look like child's play.
62. Yes I hide my political leanings, at work and socially. People assume that if they like you, of course you vot like they do. My husband slipped once (new in town) and commented that he is a Republican, when we were out to dinner. Shocked silence, then without a hint of irony, one of our companions said, "Well, for a Republican, you're very open minded."
I believe I asked you earlier to skip the personal insults and the vulgar language.
If you can't do that, then go somewhere else, it's a big Internet, and not all of it needs to be family friendly. But this post will be. - jrm
Bart Cannon says at #62, "Liberals just need to respect that their opinions are not universally held".
Sometimes you have to wonder if liberals actually comprehend that their views aren't universally held. Liberals tend to only have liberal friends, live in big liberal cities, and have jobs in the government, the arts, the legal profession, or the media.
I had a big e-mail discussion with an old friend a couple years ago. He made a couple snide comments about Bush and I told him I'd just as soon not discuss politics. I knew what I was in for. But he egged me on. I mentioned that I presumed he didn't know any conservatives besides me. Being a good liberal he promptly wrote back that my comment "offended" him. Why, he actually worked with someone that was a conservative! Wow, he actually did know someone who was not a liberal. One. Bet he's never had a beer with the guy.
Bart, if you really want to seek out a bastion of non-liberalism in Seattle, check out the Rimrock Steak House up here in beautiful Lake City. You'll think you are in Omak. And except for the TV's you'll think it is 1960.
65. Sometimes I wonder if liberals are mentally ill, when they keep asserting "facts" that are so wrong that a blind man could see it.
Slavery Party Failed Abortion,
Not all Democrats are Slavers. However all Slavers are Democrats. At one time personal achievement and the rewards gained were cherished by many on the Left; they are few and far between nowadays.
Today, JFK would be a frothing-at-the-mouth Conservative to most of you Slavers. After all, he cut taxes, involved us in foreign wars, and talked about the triumph of the individual man. Kind of like your favorite whipping boy George W. Bush...
JFK was a Democrat. Barack Obama is a Slaver. The former valued personal achievement and the spoils that went with it; the latter wants to use the force of Government to take from the winners and give to the losers (and even penalize those who do so voluntarily).
You're a Slaver; the fact you are also a Democrat is a forgone conclusion. Zell Miller is a Democrat, he is not a Slaver.
In fairness, and because I am likely one of the oldest commentors here, I feel the need to post the following:
In the late 1960's I was a long-haired leftist. In those days it was well known that if you had long hair you would likely get the tar beat out of you by "rednecks" if you left the big city.
Us long-haired types hitch-hiked pretty much everywhere. If you are old enough you remember when hitch-hikers graced every freeway entrance ramp. I was one of them. I recall people telling me to avoid certain towns in Northern California where "hippies get killed", and that Medford was a "police state".
There certainly was a lot of mythology there, but as an 18-year old kid I took it rather seriously.
Back in those days we were afraid of right-wing intolerance. That's why All In The Family was such a popular TV show. My girlfriend's father was a dead ringer for Archie Bunker. I watched in amazement once when he started a fire by first dousing it with gasoline.
These days country music stars are the ones with long hair. That was unimaginable in 1969.
Times have changed since then. In my innocent youth I was certain that when my generation came of age there would be peace, love, and understanding. What actually happenened is something else entirely. The people that promised peace, love and understanding turned out to be intolerant control freaks. In 1969 I wouldn't have imagined that in my wildest dreams.
Don't feel alone their folks. As a rep/conserv and working as a fire fighter, sorry I'm old school FIREMAN. I had to keep my head low until I came here and my Chief was also old school. But the union would push & push. I kept quite at times, but would speak up. Most of all after GW became prez and our union said he had cut funding to fire depts. Well I wasted no time in proving that was a Clinton budget not GW. You think I ever hear anyone say sorry.... NOPE
That's just the way it is.
I am a high school teacher. Two years ago the faculty adviser of the "Earth Club" sent out a message that they would be showing Al Gore's film on global warming. I sent back a short, polite email suggesting that the students be offered an alternative viewpoints and gave two suggestions as to short videos that might fit the bill, one of them being by the 60 Minutes fellow whose name escapes me right now.
Anyway, the next morning I was accosted by the faculty adviser in question, who proceeded to berate me in public about my "Neo Conservative views", about how he thought he was listening to a press release from the Bush/Cheney Whitehouse, and how it was a good thing I wasn't a social studies teacher because I would be destroying the minds of the students (for the record I teach math). I was astounded, not only at the public forum of the attack but at the outright rudeness towards someone who had privately expressed a differing viewpoint.
Needless to say I complained to the administration and was told that I should call him up and have a personal conversation with him about my feelings on the matter. I chose not to teach there much longer.
I recall, as a 20-year old in 1972, entering a tavern in west-central Idaho (I was legal age) and asking the barkeep for a half-case of Rainier. Every eye of every red-neck in the place was on me...a long-haired hippie freak who had the audacity to enter their domain. Needless to say I got the hell out of there as soon as I paid for the beer. Thinking back, I should have known better than to to walk into that place, as the dusty Ford pickups in the lot were a significant contrast to my bright red '68 SS396 Chevelle.
Yeah, Bill, a significant percentage of young folks of that era were long-haired, radical, pot-smoking, beer drinking party animals. But the difference between us and the gray pony-tailed urban leftists of today is that we outgrew the foolishness of our youth, worked hard and made something of ourselves. The pony-tails are still living near college campuses, rolling joints and expecting Mom/Dad and the taxpayers to pay their bills.
Well Saltherring, some of us outgrew it. The rest of them now control our culture and the direction of the country.
Not sure I believe your story, "facts" but that is certainly possible. If some of the bumper stickers I've seen here in Seattle that say things like "f---k Bush" are what your friend had on his car he was asking for it. Not condoning that behavior, but if you put that kind of thing on your car you have to bear some responsibility for what might happen.
I'm just not buying it - do you guys really have such an inferiority complex?
Liberals don't frequent Wenatchee?
Long hairs from the 60's control our culture?
You're all talking about how poorly you're treated by the "slavers" and the "mentally ill".
I think you enjoy your group persecution complex.
It isn't real, but, in this small narrow blog world it seems to be your reality.
73. @76 BA - it isn't a complex, when at work flaming liberals feel free to say whatever they want and I have to keep my mouth shut. That is a fact.
Bill @ 66,
The Rimrock is my other bar. But since half the patrons there are on parole or unemployment, it's almost as liberal as the Hen.
I go on Wednesdays only. To see Fred and his Davanos. Non parolees kind of crowd out the parolees on that night.
Not that there's anything wrong with being on parole or unemployment.
Posting #72 is a lie. Leftist/progressives often are jackasses, IMO - not all of them. They are out to provoke and it can be said a lot of them on this blog come across as colder than a whore's heart. Yes, I'd say that there is a culture war and there are times it stands out like a sore thumb on this blog as a war of words. Maybe, it took a President like Bush to ratchet it up a notch - even though many moderates and conservatives found Bush to be incompetent and did not like his policies, but they are slow at picking that up - case and point #60, #65 and #72.
It feels like it is nearly impossible to have an honest dialogue with these posters in particular and other left-wingers, because they like to drive the discussion and I often find their arguments corrupted. To be far, there are also a few right-wingers who post who are not articulate and resort to ad-hominem attacks on the trolls, which is not productive either. It doesn't have to be that way, I am all for hope and change in this area, but I won't hold my breath.
By the typed words of a number of liberal/progressive trolls ; in several cases, they would like to see all Republicans gone. One thing that is easy to see is that the left lacks in discipline and intellectual honesty, a sure sign of underlying insecurity. I'd say that the battle lines are being drawn by the leftist trolls, whether they realize it or not. It is easy to type toxic twitter and randomly lie, but in real life, it would be quite different if met face to face.
"facts", when you say, "The Bush lovers are the car keyers." I suspect you are not being entirely honest.
Lets play a little game here, "facts". Are "Bush lovers" the people that every weekend spray paint on everything in sight? No. The young creeps that do that kind of vandalism everywhere do so because of what liberalism has done to our culture. I'd bet anything all of those young criminals were Obama supporters. What do you think "facts"? Are they members of the local branch of the Young Republicans?
I'm getting to the point of this thread. If you dare to blame the rampant vandalism we see everywhere on liberals they come unglued. They know at some deep level that it is true but liberals never, ever, admit they are wrong. Liberals have thrown a gazillion dollars at public schools since 1965 and still they are failing and "underfunded". Don't dare say that to them, they'll accuse you of racism, sexism, or whatever ism they find convenient at the time.
Conceal your political views when you have to work and live around liberals? If you don't they will make you life miserable. The modern left is made up of truly unpleasant people.
Sometimes I wish this was still the Old West. Then we could either beat them up, shoot them, or hang them.
Oh and for you humorless leftists I'm just kidding. Sort of.
65. Comment deleted.
I believe I asked you earlier to skip the personal insults and the vulgar language.
If you can't do that, then go somewhere else, it's a big Internet, and not all of it needs to be family friendly. But this post will be. - jrm
Posted by Brian Thomas at March 8, 2009 03:05 PM
There was no personal insults nor vulgar language in any of my posts other than repeating Rick D.'s post.
Your comment "I believe I asked you earlier to skip the personal insults and the vulgar language. " implies that the personal insults and/or vulgar language in my post were mine when they were in fact those of Rick D.. Which you have left up.
Getting pressure from the fascist wing of the King County and Washington State Republican Party are you Jim?
Actually you should go to the Rimrock for breakfast sometime. We had to take our relatives to the airport in the middle of the night this past New Years day in the most rotten rain imaginable. By the time we got them on the plane we were pretty much done.
We came back home around 6:00 AM, tired and starving. Nothing was open. Anywhere. Except the Rimrock.
The eggs, sausage, and hash browns couldn't have been better. The very potent Bloody Mary's were welcome as well.
I didn't see any liberals in the joint that morning.
79. If I were running Sound Politics, I'd require registration and ban all the leftist trolls! This should be a safe place for conservatives/libertarians to calmly discuss the issues. We end wasting thread after thread fending off the lying trolls. Where is Stefan?
Brian Thomas at #81 says, "Getting pressure from the fascist wing of the King County and Washington State Republican Party are you Jim?"
I'm going to assume that's a poor attempt at sarcasm.
Actually I think Brian is dead serious. As intolerant as leftists tend to be we have on the right folks such as Brian Thomas and Doug Parris. They are as opposed to civilized discussion as Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and Barack Obama are on the left.
I get it that Parris and company believe in conservative principles. I don't get that they promote their beliefs via anger and name calling. Ronald Reagan never called people names or shouted out in anger. He simply believed in his principles. He believed he could convince people without being divisive and angry.
If you happened to work for Doug Parris would you conceal your political beliefs? I imagine so.
We've talked a lot on this thread about the fear of disclosing your political beliefs. I want to believe that conservatives are the most tolerant. Then again I can't ignore Brian Thomas, and Doug Parris. I find both of you to be embarrasing.
81. #85 - you have just proven my point from my previous post. More intellectual dishonest crap from you - you are out of control, dude ! Deep down we both know that you are emotionally unstable.
"facts" at #85 Do you not get that "Crusader" is a leftist?"
He/she/whatever is a fake and a phony.
83. Keep verbally puking your deranged propaganda. The only question is will this culture war get beyond words or will there be shots fired ? OR will there be an outside force - like a terrorist attack on NY or SF by militant Islamists because the current administration has let its guard down and are advertising it. I hope that it is not the last one, but would not be surprised if it happens.
You do understand that Obama's plan of wealth redistribution is simply trickle-down economics with the Government in the middle? It still relies upon the wealthy and the corporations to provide the money and jobs, but now Obama's Government will take the fruits of their labor and give them out how he wants, rather than how the producers and the market wants.
There is no "trickle up" economics; there is trickle down free market, or trickle-down-with-theft via the Obama Government.
HOPE AND CHANGE!
The joke is on you, "facts".
Since you own 3 businesses, "facts", have you ever had to conceal your own very liberal political views?
And if you really do own 3 businesses do you judge the people you hire by their political leanings?
Call me a conservative meanie if you want "facts" but I don't think you'd know what to do with a paper clip, much less a business.
If you actually ran a business you wouldn't rant about:
"Conservative" economic policies, and trickle UP policies that only help the rich, and large corporations (until they implode from utter stupidity) have almost destroyed our nation. The average American has lost ground to inflation for 30 years now. We have gone from being the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation, since Reagan started his war on the middle class, and unions."
30 years ago kids didn't have the nice cars they drive to school now. They didn't have cell phones where they can text message endlessly. They couldn't come home and sit in their rooms with their own computers. Yup, that's some war on the middle class Reagan started. You must be very young and lacking in historical knowledge. The "middle class" never has had it so good.
The lie that conservative policies have "destroyed the middle class" is one of the most disgusting lies liberals tell. Walk by any high school at lunch time. There is an endless stream of cars headed for McDonalds, Wendy's or Burger King. They are all on their cell phones text messaging or conversing.
When I was in high school only a handful of students owned cars. This idea liberals push day after day about the destruction of the middle class is nothing more than a lie.
Lying is what makes me more angry than anything at liberals. They cannot, and will not engage conservatives on ideology. So they lie, and they have a willing media to back them up.
I'm really a nice guy. I try to treat everyone with respect.
I have to admit however that when I see lying Democrat politicians my first impulse is to wonder how enjoyable it might be to kick their lying teeth down their throats.
Might I suggest #90 is a relatively good example of the sort of gracious, respectful, debate that causes many of us to take a stealth approach in our workplaces and social spaces when surrounded by those of the "liberal" persuasion.
Such folks are simply not worth the energy, and are impervious to evidence, logic, and fact. The best course is to smile sweetly at them, allow them their beliefs so far as is practical (say, short of permitting them to physically/legally/economically harm themselves or others in lemming-like fashion), and treat them much as you would a religious fanatic - for the difference is pretty small, in all reality. The hatefulness, intolerance, and scape goating employed by both groups are virtually identical.
I, too, have observed greater tolerance and politencess (while noting that in all communities, a certain "asshole per capita" ratio exists) as a gay gun-owning libertarian meandering through the non-theocratic conservative and gun-owning communities than I've found in the largely liberal LGBT and Seattle general communities.
Not surprisingly, these days, unless I have some indication of the way the wind is blowing - or am relapsing into activist mode - I prefer to keep my head down, maintain my quiet little life, and hope for the day when the curse of Nickels is lifted from the city of Seattle.
87. Heck yeah I hide my views here. When I was dating, I dreaded the moment I would "come out of the closet" about my political views. I studied political science in college but here, it is not a good idea to proudly state that you vote for conservatives. I've actually been harrassed in the workplace in the past due to my political views.
88. "Getting pressure from the fascist wing of the King County and Washington State Republican Party are you Jim?
" ~ Brian Thomas
Posted by: Brian Thomas on March 8, 2009 07:36 PM
Actually, you've got it 180 degrees backward from reality. We all remember this story about a shoreline resident whose home was vandalized on numerous occasions because of the pro-Bush signage back in the '04 campaign. I witnessed the almost daily barrage because it happens to be on my commute route. It is but a microcosm of the intolerance of hard core leftists that just feed off of their inner hatred and act out with a mob rules mentality. Just look at how unpleasant these folks are even after coming off major election wins. They should be happy...they should be elated...but they're not. Money can't buy you love and apparently, neither can the messiah.
Post 83, 86 and 88 are why I no longer attempt to engage liberals in logical discussion, either on blogs or in "real life". How can you dialogue with someone who sees delusion as fact, lies as truth, and blatent distortion as reality. When one has lost (or never had) the ability to objectively reason, been subjected to a lifetime of leftist indoctrination (schools + media), then chooses to live within a leftist echo chamber, why expect such a person to understand (or want to understand) truth?
Those of us who escaped the tenacles of liberalism had to first objectively question....and then refute....everything we ever (thought we) knew and believed in. Many of us had conservative parents...or teachers...and were taught to question others' perceptions of truth. I recall my HS World Problems teacher asking me (outside the classroom) what had JFK accomplished as president to cause me to consider him a great man? Made me think....and reconsider.
In any case it is easy, in 2009, to be a leftist. One has only to embrace the indoctrination of your schoolteachers/professors, nod your heads in unison as the media feeds you what the "thought police" want you to see/hear, and follow the herd to the kool-aid trough.
It is quite difficult, conversely, to be a conservative in a world enthralled with victimhood, mediocracy, and fairness. In a black, white and brightly-colored world...leftists have condemned themselves to seeing only a dismal shade of gray. Such a shame.
#91, you might re-read my comments. What hacks me off more than anything is when people lie. Democrats are experts at it.
Try this experiment the next time Obama makes a speech, (you can do this with Gregoire, Barney Frank, or Nancy Pelosi, as well). Have a pen and a pad of paper. Make a mark every time he lies. I usually end up with around 10. Sometimes I wonder if liberals even realize they are lying. I think it has become a way of life for them.
For most of this decade Seattleites have heard endlessly, "Bush lied us into war" "he went to war for oil" and on, and on. There is still a house down our block that has an "impeach Bush" sticker in the window. I don't have to make these things up or lie about them. It's Seattle.
One of the lies the liberals tell is that those of us on the right are intolerant gun hugging crazies. Intolerant of lying? Yes, put me solidly in that camp. Gun hugging? Yup, I have guns. I pray that I never, ever, have to use them for anything other than target practice.
Intolerant? That's a myth. I've worked with and have been friends with gays and lesbians. I once had a person working for me who'd undergone a sex change operation. Did I discuss politics with them? No. Did I treat them differently than anyone else? Of course not.
I've said this over and over. Liberals simply don't understand conservatives. They have biases, and prejudice. They don't understand conservative principles. If they did understand them we'd likely have a lot fewer liberals. The only leader in my lifetime that understood this was Ronald Reagan.
No I certainly don't want to do actual violence to lying leftists. They've destroyed our culture with their lies, wrecked African American families, and spray-painted our businesses and homes, (and that is just a very short list of what liberalism has done to our country). I just can't imagine why I might get angry about any of that. I do however own a nasty South American blowgun. If one could deliver a poisoned dart to the neck of liberals every time they tell a lie we would probably be a lot better off. Actually it would be just as effective to have one of those old game show buzzers that would automatically go off every time they lie. Obama would never finish a speech.
If you live and work in Seattle you cannot reveal that you are a conservative. If you do you risk being shunned by those who consider themselves open minded and "progressive".
We used to have to attend "Human Resources" seminars where they preached political correctness and tolerance. I don't recall any discussions about leftist intolerance. Why would that ever come up when leftists ran the seminars?
Leftists lie because: (1) It serves their corrupt cause to do so, and (2) Because they have gotten away with it for so long. Why do you think Obama hates Rush Limbaugh? Because Rush calls Obama out on his lies and delusions. I would pay big bucks to watch an Obama/Limbaugh debate....No gloves...No teleprompters.
92. Sometimes I wonder if liberals even realize they are lying. I think it has become a way of life for them.
What you are missing Bill is that they BELIEVE every sing thing they are saying hence it can't be a 'lie'.
I'm a bit of two minds. On the one hand, I work for King County and I most definitely hide my views (more or less conserva-libertarian). Most who work here are quite definitely left of center and have spewed some of the most hateful nonsense I have ever heard ("Why couldn't those planes [on 9-11] just hit the White House?").
OTOH, I'm sort of old school anyway, in that I leave most of my personal life at the workplace door and think everyone else should, too. No politics, no religion, and little but the usual daily chit-chat on my family.
Saltherring at #94 says,
"In any case it is easy, in 2009, to be a leftist. One has only to embrace the indoctrination of your schoolteachers/professors, nod your heads in unison as the media feeds you what the "thought police" want you to see/hear, and follow the herd to the kool-aid trough."
"It is quite difficult, conversely, to be a conservative in a world enthralled with victimhood, mediocracy, and fairness. In a black, white and brightly-colored world...leftists have condemned themselves to seeing only a dismal shade of gray. Such a shame."
Exactly right. It's easy to be a mind-numbed leftist follower. It's hip, it's edgy. It requires no introspection. It's how I became a liberal back in the '60's. All the really cool people were leftists.
The interesting thing about leftists is how they eventually end up being anything but hip and edgy. They end up being angry, controlling thought police that pass laws forcing people to wear bicycle helmets.
How did this happen? Honestly I don't know. All of my old friends from back in the late '60's and early '70's are still die hard leftists. I've had occasional political disussions with them. I always regret it.
Usually they end up ranting about how we are approaching a "tipping point" regarding global climate change, or how we all "need" mass transit. Don't make the mistake of asking your liberal friends why they don't use mass transit themselves. They are "too busy" and just asking such a question "offends" them. I've performed this experiment. Whatever you do, don't bring up the fact that Al Gore has mammoth homes, drives rented limos, and flies in ozone gobbling private jets. You just might end up concluding that leftists are lying hypocrites.
I'm sure others here have had similar experiences.
I think you are right Ragnar. In general liberals believe the lies they tell. They have been brainwashed by their teachers and the media, and in some cases by their liberal parents. They think what they say is true.
However, when politicians such as Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, or Al Gore lie it is deliberate.
I can understand and forgive brainwashed liberals, particularly the young who have never been exposed to any ideology other than liberalism,(there is a reason Obama wants government funded pre-school).
What I can't forgive is the constant lying of older leftists who absolutely know they are lying. It is a calculated method by which they push forward their socialist agenda.
What I don't know is whether they do it out of honest good intentions, or whether they just get their jollies telling the rest of us how to live. As time goes on I tend to believe the latter. They just are not nice people.
saltherring says, "I would pay big bucks to watch an Obama/Limbaugh debate....No gloves...No teleprompters"
Wouldn't that be fantastic? It will never happen because liberals are afraid to debate their ideas openly. That's why Gore refuses to debate anyone.
I'd like to see Limbaugh go up against any liberal icon. Let's make a short list: James Carville, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Chris Matthews, Bill Mahr. Limbaugh would turn any of those people into piles of blubbering mush.
How I'd love to see it. It would change the country.
Apart from my wife and myself, I don't know anyone who is conservative, although they must be out there in my daily life. I stay connected to conservatism through blogs such as this one, and some talk radio. When the expected conservative-bashing comes up, I generally stay silent. If it gets overblown, I will respond. If questioned about my beliefs, I will respond honestly.
I had a neighbor that I considered somewhat of a friend. He used to spout the standard anti-conservative rhetoric, but I generally ignored it. Once, though, he started railing against the military, essentially calling them the hordes of "Jenjis Khan." I said, "do you really believe that?" We began a lengthy discussion, I with utter calmness, he with visibly increasing rage and bewilderment at the dawning realization that his friend was on the Dark Side. My last words were, "well, I've traveled quite extensively, and I think Americans are among the most tolerant people in the world." He looked at me agape and walked away. That was the last time he ever spoke to me, even when, several months later, he and his wife were able to sell their house and move down to Florida for a job.
That makes me sad. Not for the loss of a friend, because he was obviously a superficial one at best, and friendship with him was apparently predicated upon adherence to partisan orthodoxy. No, it makes me sad because I think there a lot of liberals like that, and, even though I was able to appreciate many things about him in spite of our different political views, he was unable to reciprocate.
I think it is because the liberal view of conservatives is cartoonish, and everything is based on what they think are our motives, rather than our beliefs and arguments. For example, immigration = neo-cons don't like brown people, war on terror = neo-cons don't like brown Muslim people, economy/unions/business = neo-cons favor the rich fat cats.
98. Different Brian Thomas. Try again. Try, try, try again.
- Brian Thomas
These aren't the droids you're looking for, right?
Nope. I know who you are. And so do the people who are reading this thread, but not posting.
Maybe you'll think twice about running your mouth calling people a bunch of cowards and fascists. But I doubt it.
"I think it is because the liberal view of conservatives is cartoonish, and everything is based on what they think are our motives, rather than our beliefs and arguments. For example, immigration = neo-cons don't like brown people, war on terror = neo-cons don't like brown Muslim people, economy/unions/business = neo-cons favor the rich fat cats."
Indeed. Much of what people believe about conservatives is based on what liberals tell them. Their teachers tell them, the media tells them, Hollywood tells them. People believe it all.
It's part of the liberal brainwashing machine. They tell lies to people and eventually, as we see now, people believe what they've heard.
Liberals cannot win by being honest. Liberalism cannot stand up to honest debate. So liberals do what leftists always do. Lie, and stifle debate.
Bill C. says:
"It's part of the liberal brainwashing machine. They tell lies to people and eventually, as we see now, people believe what they've heard.
Liberals cannot win by being honest. Liberalism cannot stand up to honest debate. So liberals do what leftists always do. Lie, and stifle debate."
Very interesting you should mention this, as I've had the very same occurances while trying to objectively and honestly debate leftists. They attempt to baffle you by repeating mainstream media gibberish, and when you counter their foolishness with logic and truth, they become enraged, realizing you are not buying their lies. Like Gizzur at 102, it makes me sad that these people have become so indentured by their ideological lunacy that they reject personal relationships with "non-believers"...perhaps because deep down, they realize you are right and consider them (and righfully so) to be foolish.
Saltherring, it is almost a religion among leftists. They simply believe all the talking points. I suppose it is understandable because they don't allow themselves to hear anything else.
So they end up believing what they hear on NBC nightly news, or read in the Times and the P-I. They believe what their teachers and professors tell them.
They then become enraged by an opposing point of view. They are "offended". I try to avoid discussing politics with my old leftist friends, but they usually bring the subject up. I'm not afraid to express my opinion but every single time they end up blowing their stacks, getting red in the face, and I'm left wondering if I'll ever hear from them again. Sometimes I actually have to say things like, "I'm glad we can have a political discussion and remain friends". I don't base my friendships and relationships on politics but liberals seem to. I never raise my voice in these discussions. My liberal friends and relatives generally get so angry that I worry that they might have a stroke. I honestly do try to steer away from politics. My sister is coming into town in a couple weeks. She is a liberal social worker. I love her very much but I have learned to avoid discussing politics with her. In the irony department I was more liberal than she was when we were growing up.
I was once a leftist. We were so certain that we knew everything that I refused to listen to anyone with an opposing point of view. It took me a long time to realize that leftists are close-minded, controlling, intollerant people. They also think nothing of lying. I can't begin to describe how wonderful the feeling was when I realized I was no longer one of them. I also realize with regret how intollerant I was of opposing points of view.
102. I also realize that I have been spelling "intolerant" incorrectly. My apologies.
I live in Moses Lake, so I can be pretty open about being conservative. My 12-year-old son lives in Bothell, however, and he wore a McCain shirt to school during the campaigning to see what would happen. He got a whole mess of verbal taunting (not from teachers, thankfully) and one kid physically attacked him. In middle school, fer gossake!
He also didn't have the courage to tell his mother he had worn that shirt, knowing her political leanings. THAT should say something about the environment in western Washington.
104. I'm a conservative artist and musician...AKA: masochist. I've only once spoken up as a conservative in a work setting and that was to suggest that I thought Michael Moore's work could do with a little more "Fact" and a little less "Truth". The response was "...Oh my ***, you're a Reupblican!!! . After that, all civility was lost. I "left" that job within the year. At my latest gig (large company), I couldn't count all of the buttons, bumper stickers, door signs touting Obama. I didn't have to say anything about my political views as I've chosen not to hide them anymore...my 8 foot tall pickup and cowboy boots do the talking for me.
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Came here via bookworm.
We are in eastern maine
I am jewish and active in a reform synagogue of excellent people. I consider myself to be a classic liberal...HHH, HST, FDR. This puts me not to far from how Barry Goldwater is looked at today by the modern democratic party.
Given that in our community, which went 80% Obama, altho our tiny town went marginally for McCain, I have let out my proclivities somewhat carefully and we have found ourselves tolerated as some kind of oddity.
When Obama got ahead in the spring last year and I started inveighing quite heavily about his appts to his staff (excepting finally Dennis Ross) being frankly, functionally anti semitic no one would discuss the facts.
HAMAS was thought to be a group which would confirm to normals after suffering a bit.
To our friends, massive cuts in defense were needed. Many of the folks who work in social services said they were sick of hearing that jobs which generated corporate profit were needed and that their jobs (paid for by taxes) were just as important.
Finally I let my blog do the talking.
Very recently in a discussion over health care when I mentioned that McCain wanted to allow anyone in any state to take competitive advantage by getting access to plans in ALL other states, there was shock and surprise around the table...I mean THAT was a good idea.
In short the emotional ties of the progressive left make it impossible for factual differences in discussion to occur in anything but a tense environment since if the facts are not with what is perceived to be social justice, the dialectic is violated, and an impossible situation has just occurred.
I am an attorney in Washington DC. My friends know me as an "order liberty libertarian" and have probably heard me speak too often about the immorality of other taking the fruits of my labor, or of me taking their output. Many, many friends are liberal, and many, many friends are conservative. We are all open about our views. Maybe it's the nature of the place out here where despite the incredible lean to the left by all the tax eaters, but I have not had a problem speaking my mind. I suspect that is partly b/c on social issues I take a live and let live approach (so long as the people decide and judges don't impose their enlightened updating of the law). If I were to fall more in the religious right side, then I do think it would be tough to be outspoken in front of the hard lefties.
In the end, most people I know who care about politics are not going to be swayed, absent some major change in their situation (becoming a parent) or a 9-11 type event, both of which changed some people I know. We will have our discussions -- either polite disagreement or preaching to the choir -- and then turn to the weather or sports.
She will remain the majority leader because until the GOP shuts the mouth of the moron called "Limbaugh".... no republican is going to gain enough respect to earn that title!....
I am embarrased to say that I voted for this Democractic President....only to realize that every move...every action this party has proceeded with has been for their own benefit. Not the american who is out there working 60-80 hrs a week. Yes I said that correct...60-80 hrs a week...not 40!....so the taxes that the democractic party feels is appropriate for that "rich crowd...you know the 5 percent'ers who supposedly have it so made in this country" are not imposed on those folks who work a 40 hr week and have time with their family, ....but imposed on those who work double that time because they are willing to sacrifice hours spent...in order to put their kids into college without having to ask the GOVERNMENT for a dime! .... Should they lower their hours...make less and them too stick their hand out and say Mr. Government...PAY ME!?
Please.... your kidding me! The little witch of the West will be back... because the GOP doesn't have the balls to stand up and take leadership. The GOP doesn't have any leaders!.... The only person willing to speak up for this party is the one guy who unfortunately has nothing valid to say...RUSH LIMBAUGH!
There is a shift in the tide and believe me it is going to have a crumbling affect.
Within the next two decades...the only people who will receive a college education will be those who get it at the cost of the tax payers...they will not work for it...their parents will not have paid for it...but every tax payer will have paid for their education...and they will be the receivers of the highest paid positions...they will become the CEOs of America. Those who have worked for that higher income...those who have made sacrifices for their families...will pay higher taxes and will not be able to afford to put their children into college, yet will also not qualify for government funded education so their children will become the less educated while the government funded children of this country will become this country's future...
Seems the American Dream is not worth the sacrifice after all....
I worked a full time job while attending college full time...every red cent paid out of my own pocket just to accomplish what I thought was necessary in order to be a little more successful than my parents....finally reaching a point where I could say I wouldnt suffer quite as much as my parents had....only to learn that in this Country that I fought for.. (Marine for 8 years)reaching success only means that you are looked down upon and told...you "rich" person...you need to pay higher taxes!! So shame on you who work your butts off...shame on you who make sacrifices.... you shouldnt try and be successful...no you should work forty hours or less a week and reach your hand out to the Government and let them pay your way....
I grew up eating vegetables out of our garden because there were no groceries...my parents refused to accept food stamps...even in times when my Father would be furloughed from his job.... I knew the only way I would ever have a better life would require me to make sacrifices...I joined the military... I served in the Gulf War... I gave this country 8 years of my life... I dont know what it was like to live in my 20's... they came and went. I did not realize sacrificing your life....sacrificing your numbered minutes here on this earth meant nothing...absolutely nothing to this government!
How can you punish those who sacrifice their lives...their time...to have what they were taught they should strive for...the American Dream?....
Get off your butts and EARN every cent you make...every privilege you receive....dont ask your GOVERNMENT to put you through College...dont ask your GOVERNMENT to buy you an Escalade...dont ask your GOVERNMENT to put food on your table!...Especially YOU who have not given anything to your COUNTRY!