December 27, 2008
The city of accumulating garbage

P-I: "Garbage service resumes in some areas, trash continues to pile up in others"

In Northeast Seattle, residents whose garbage and recyclable goods were scheduled for removal on Christmas or Friday should have seen crews at their curbs [Saturday], [Seattle Public Utilities spokesman Andy Ryan] said.
"should have seen", in our case means "did not see". Our garbage hasn't been picked up since December 12.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 27, 2008 09:03 PM | Email This
Comments
1. and?...

Posted by: gop not on December 27, 2008 09:04 PM
2. Even the Chicago Democratic machine ousted one of it's own, Mayor Bilandic, for fumbling snow removal. Seattle's one party "machine" is so inept, it can't even police itself. No salt and rubber tipped NERF-PLOWS! What a joke. This really is Mayberry! (Remember the Sports-Babe?)

Posted by: Bangbangbill on December 27, 2008 09:30 PM
3. backyard burn barrels will get their attention

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 27, 2008 10:16 PM
4. Folks,
Remember, when the trucks do come to pick up your trash, don't leave them where the poor guys have to haul them out of the snow to empty them. Should they actually make it into our street, I've cleared out a section and placed the cans and all in a place accessible to the truck without trying to pull them out of the snow.

Posted by: Mike on December 27, 2008 10:43 PM
5. In south Pierce County, our neighborhood roads were really bad until today. Our garbage, recycle, and yard waste removal (all separate days) never missed a beat, start to finish. Of course, they're a private firm....

Posted by: katomar on December 27, 2008 10:59 PM
6. Just keep dumping it on this blog. :)

Posted by: tensor on December 27, 2008 11:07 PM
7. Last Garbage service: Cap Hill Seattle, Monday Dec 15. We are supposed to be 2x per week. Missed three consecutive pick ups.

Posted by: gregg on December 27, 2008 11:15 PM
8. tensor - keep whistling past the graveyard.

Posted by: Crusader on December 27, 2008 11:39 PM
9. Last garbage service in Redmond: 12/15.

Posted by: Crusader on December 27, 2008 11:42 PM
10. Hells bells... our pick up is Monday morning... we haven't heard Rabanco rattle through since the 8th.

They did give us a robocall earlier this week saying we'd get 3 weeks of pickup for trash, yard waste AND recycling this week, weather permitting.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 28, 2008 12:24 AM
11. keep whistling past the graveyard.

Good to see you're taking my advice!

Posted by: tensor on December 28, 2008 01:49 AM
12. The TV news idiots, quoting the garbage haulers, said there would be no "extra charge" for hauling off three weeks of Seattle's garbage (if and when the haulers finally get around to it). Three weeks service for the price of...errr...three. What more do you want?

PS: Makes me glad we haul our own garbage to the dump out here in the sticks.

Posted by: Saltherring on December 28, 2008 05:46 AM
13. i'm now a garbage victim--i want a bailout--saaaaaaayy----i LIKE this new attitude i'm adopting for hope-n-change

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 28, 2008 06:07 AM
14. My problem is that I can't get the garbage DELIVERED!

The Seattle Times, in it's wisdom about how to keep it's shrinking customer base happy, refuses to allow it's carriers to get their feet wet.

Their carriers are safe from snowflakes, and I've learned how to live without their paper.

Posted by: Camille on December 28, 2008 07:52 AM
15. All Seattle residents should collect their garbage and instead of taking it to the nearest transfer station they should take it to 191e 47th Ave SW (Greg Nickels house). He made the mess. Let him clean it up.

Posted by: WFP on December 28, 2008 09:04 AM
16. Well, trucks are out picking up the garbage this morning,(Sunday)here in beautiful Lake City.

Lots of folks don't have their cans out by the street. I've got to get over and tell my neighbor.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 10:13 AM
17. Nickels is the Grinch that Stole Christmas. Nothing could get delivered, travel to downtown impossible, so still waiting on gifts at my house.

Similarly, downtown retailers and the employees that depend on them had their Christmas stolen by Grinch Nickels. All the shoppers went to Bellevue, which is sensible about keeping the streets clear of snow and ice.

But we do all have loads of garbage! I suspect The Grinch thinks this is teaching us all a lesson about producing less garbage. That's the only explanation, because put chains on those big garbage trucks and you can make them go almost anywhere and through almost anything.

Hey, if I use my politically correct recyclable cloth grocery bag for some garbage, will the garbage collector know to just empty the contents and not toss in the bag too?

Posted by: bananaland on December 28, 2008 11:17 AM
18. No problems here in Tacoma. Seattle is the laughing stock of the state. They get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Posted by: Ryan on December 28, 2008 12:03 PM
19. No problems here in Tacoma. Seattle is the laughing stock of the state. They get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Posted by: Ryan on December 28, 2008 12:03 PM
20. No problems here in Tacoma. Seattle is the laughing stock of the state. They get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Posted by: Ryan on December 28, 2008 12:03 PM
21. No problems here in Tacoma. Seattle is the laughing stock of the state. They get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Posted by: Ryan on December 28, 2008 12:03 PM
22. No problems here in Tacoma. Seattle is the laughing stock of the state. They get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Posted by: Ryan on December 28, 2008 12:03 PM
23. Indeed, only a matter of time before Bellevue is the new true Metro area for this part of the Northwest. Seattle will likely slowly melt away like it's roads-full-of-snow pack. Bellevue does it right, Seattle will be it's suburb.

Posted by: ESideDominator on December 28, 2008 12:06 PM
24. Seattle should be nuked, then we can clean out the zombies like in "28 days after".

Posted by: Crusader on December 28, 2008 01:14 PM
25. I find it interesting that the City of Seattle and Waste Management have assured us that we can put our "extra" accumulated garbage and we will not be charged "extra" for it.

Instead, how about a REFUND for at least two weeks of failed service ??

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 28, 2008 02:55 PM
26. Folks. I honestly have never heard my fellow conservatives whine and complain as much as I have on these threads about this silly snowstorm.

I am not, repeat not, defending Mayor Nickels. Could Seattle have had a few more snowplows at the ready? Sure. Should they have used salt to clear the roads more quickly? I'd vote yes.

Commentors have portrayed this normal event of winter as if it were some sort of massive calamity. It wasn't. It was just a snowstorm. Deliveries were interrupted, some business couldn't open, some people couldn't get to work. That has always happened. Perhaps our perspective has been altered because we haven't had a decent snow in so long.

I worry about the future of conservatism. Hand-wringing over big brother's failure to make a winter snowstorm go away and pick up our garbage on time is something liberals do.

We are becoming liberals and we don't even realize it.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 04:22 PM
27. hey get most of the money and deliver the least services to their constituents.

Our state government is a mechanism for collecting taxes from metropolitan King County, for redistribution to the rest of the state. Witness the boonies' whining when we liberals call this "government welfare":

OLYMPIA...In an unusual play, a King County senator has offered a bill that would require all counties that receive more assistance from the real estate excise tax than they contribute to hold a special election for the citizens in that county to acknowledge they are receiving "government welfare."

During a public hearing on the bill yesterday, Sen. Bob Morton, R-Kettle Falls, took strong exception to the term "government welfare" being used, and told the committee that four of his counties would qualify under the bill. He used Ferry County as an example of why his counties could not afford to hold such an election.

(http://www.senaterepublicans.wa.gov/news/2008/morton/020808REETBil.htm)

What's it like to be this wrong about something so obvious?

Posted by: tensor on December 28, 2008 04:45 PM
28. Bill @ 26

I'm not sure I see the posters here complaining about the weather. What I do see is posters complaining about the lack of service by city government related to Ice /Snow removal.

I'm guessing that you own some type of vehicle. Would you "complain" if you took your vehicle in for service, paid for the service, and found out that your vehicle hadn't been worked on at all?

Would you "whine" if you bought a new TV and when you got home and opened the box, you found it was an empty box?

The people of Seattle pay taxes for, among other things, snow removal. The city of Seattle has not performed the service that they were paid to perform. It is the RIGHT of every citizen who pays taxes to complain about the lack of service from city government.

I am not surprised to find that the Democrat run city government is unable or unwilling to do the job they were paid to do- That's business as usual!

Posted by: David on December 28, 2008 05:05 PM
29. It would be refreshing David if you would read my post before responding to it.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 05:11 PM
30. What will business owners do in protest? Refuse to pay their awning tax?

LMAO at Seattle- Sorry to the minority who vote for common sense- the rest of you pukes are getting exactly what you deserve.

Posted by: Andy on December 28, 2008 05:17 PM
31. Give me patience. Do you people actually believe that if you watch the 11 PM news and Rebecca says we are going to have 5-inches of snow that you'll magically wake up to plowed streets in the morning?

I'm sorry, but that's the way posters here have been acting. I can't think of a single major arterial that was blocked for more than a few hours,(save perhaps Queen Anne Avenue).

Please people, let's have a little perspective and what I like to think is conservative common sense.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 05:42 PM
32. Last pickup here in the Renton Highlands was Tuesday December 16. Hoping for pickup on the 30th. Then we switch to Monday pickup in January.

Posted by: RBW on December 28, 2008 06:09 PM
33. Bill,

I think it's frustration that the city will waste millions on automatic toilets, glass-ceiling meeting rooms, creating illegal CCW rules, and worrying about plastic bags but will not pay to at least get our number of plows up to the per-capita level of the other cities in the area.

Consider that Portland has 2/3rds the Seattle population, but twice the number of snow plows. On a per capita basis Bellevue, Edmonds, and Everett have twice the capacity of Seattle.

It's about priorities, and situations like this are a perfect example of how the Seattle "leadership" is more interested in the high-minded type of "issues" than the basics that Government is supposed to deal with.

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 28, 2008 06:20 PM
34. Agree completely with Shanghai Dan @33.

Meanwhile, the promised Sunday pickup of garbage in my neighborhood did not happen. Raccoons, though, have found the garbage bags and are spreading it all over the street.

Posted by: bananaland on December 28, 2008 06:25 PM
35. I don't disagree. As I wrote, I can't stand Nickels or the rest of the liberals that run Seattle. Could they have done a better job during the snow? Probably, but there would not have been that much of a noticeable difference in my opinion.

I think we are barking up the wrong tree here and sounding just like liberal crybabies.

You can have all the snowplows you want but a big snow will shut down any city. If people are upset because they choose to live on a steep hill and can't get out in the snow that's just too bad. No one made them live where it might be tough to get out in the snow. They chose to live there. We lived in the boonies on a steep hill when I grew up. We chose to live there. We didn't expect the county to plow us out of there. We prepared for bad weather, and we walked to the store if we needed anything.

I haven't seen any evidence that arterials in Seattle weren't open within a reasonable time after the snow. I note that no one here has been able to refute that.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 06:34 PM
36. Bill Cruchon: obviously you are living in some sort of fairy-tale city. In my city, major streets (including arterials) were blocked for days, and people risked their lives just to get out for necessities. Traffic, commerce, and public safety all suffered. My wife had to rent a hotel room next to her workplace for three nights running just to be able to get to work. I myself was almost killed in front of my house by an idiot speeding on an icy hill that she had no business even being on, and even now I have three weeks' worth of garbage piled up in front of my house.

And as for you, Tensor, I'd like to know just what you think it IS that government is supposed to do for us, since passable streets and garbage removal apparently don't make your list. Even in Chicago, "Streets and Sanitation" is at the top of the city's priority list (see the reference to Michael Bilandic at the top of this thread).

Posted by: HT on December 28, 2008 06:58 PM
37. As I wrote, I can't stand Nickels or the rest of the liberals that run Seattle. Could they have done a better job during the snow? Probably, but there would not have been that much of a noticeable difference in my opinion.

Not probably, definitely. My friends in Everett and Bellevue, and myself around here in Edmonds had no problem getting around on Christmas eve, Christmas, or the day after. Even the weekend before was fine.

Seattle? No so much - buses out, streets impassible. The areas around Seattle - areas that had MORE snow and have equally hilly terrain - actually cleaned themselves up faster.

There is no probably involved - the answer is they definitely could have done better, and the fact that Nickels and the rest of the dolts in power gave themselves such high grades just shows their ignorance. And is completely infurating.

Let them eat cake, indeed!

About garbage - we had pickup here in Edmonds on Friday, all you could put out, no questions asked. My neighbors were away when the truck came and missed it - they called, and it was promptly picked up the next day. If only Seattle was as good...

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 28, 2008 07:04 PM
38. "In my city, major streets (including arterials) were blocked for days, and people risked their lives just to get out for necessities. Traffic, commerce, and public safety all suffered."

Which city? Maybe a few specifics might be in order. Are you talking about Seattle?

In any event, aren't you are just describing what happens in winter? It's called weather.

Oh no, pubic safety suffered because it snowed! Great, another chance to run to your lawyers and sue.

What in the name of reason is wrong with you people?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 07:09 PM
39. Shanghai Dan writes at #38,(quoting me), "As I wrote, I can't stand Nickels or the rest of the liberals that run Seattle. Could they have done a better job during the snow? Probably, but there would not have been that much of a noticeable difference in my opinion."

Dan writes, "Not probably, definitely. My friends in Everett and Bellevue, and myself around here in Edmonds had no problem getting around on Christmas eve, Christmas, or the day after. Even the weekend before was fine.

Seattle? No so much - buses out, streets impassible. The areas around Seattle - areas that had MORE snow and have equally hilly terrain - actually cleaned themselves up faster."

I had no trouble whatsoever getting out. The streets were not impassible. You are making this stuff up. Name where it was "impassible".

You can't.

It gets back to my point. Here are conservatives whining and acting just like liberals who blame everyone else.

What is the matter with you folks?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 07:31 PM
40. Bill Cruchon: I live in West Seattle, and Northwest Cable News provided lots of information about other parts of the city that were equally impassable. In my infrequent forays for supplies, I also witnessed several accidents myself, in addition to the specific examples I cited previously. Your petty requests for clarification are the last resort of someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is resorting to pettifoggery rather than admit they are wrong.

As for the "it's just a bit of snow and why are you complaining" argument, idiotic as it is, let me just say this: I have lived in Delaware, Chicago, Minneaolis and Denver for a total of 15 out of my 52 years on this planet, and I have never seen a city as unprepared for, or unresponsive too, an event as Seattle was for this one. I've also lived in Los Angeles and San Francisco, which handled several major events (earthquakes, riots, storms, fires), all equally unplanned and infrequent, better than this. Furthermore, I have never seen a city faced with such conditions that chose to defer to an environmental hobgoblin ("salt in Puget Sound...ooooooh icky!!!" rather than take care of its citizens.

Posted by: HT on December 28, 2008 07:47 PM
41. at #43, "Bill Cruchon: I live in West Seattle, and Northwest Cable News provided lots of information about other parts of the city that were equally impassable. In my infrequent forays for supplies, I also witnessed several accidents myself, in addition to the specific examples I cited previously. Your petty requests for clarification are the last resort of someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is resorting to pettifoggery rather than admit they are wrong."

Just my point exactly. It was a snowstorm folks!

Yup there were accidents. There always are. Do you expect the government to plow every danged street? If you do you surely wouldn't mind a hefty increase in your property taxes.

Have we gone insane? It was a winter snow. Do we expect to somehow now be prevented from the least inconvenience? Is government supposed to replace common sense?

This is precisely the mind-set I am referring to. We are thinking like liberals.

Conservatives don't expect the government to prevent them from having a car accident in the snow. Liberals do.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 28, 2008 08:03 PM
42. Even we in the suburbs have the same problem -- last garbage pickup was 12/12 -- we have several bags on the back porch and rats visiting it on a regular basis. We live in downtown Arlington.

Posted by: Randy on December 28, 2008 09:37 PM
43. Service to the citizens such as public safety and material service like street maintance is the FIRST item on the Charter that created the City Of Seattle. Nickels considers himself a dictator with all the powers that implies and the power to ignore law and customs; the displays of his
phycotic agendas and his need to control the world and all its works, the fake called warming etc(while ignoring the city) are the hall mark of the corrupt "government" in what was Seattle.

Posted by: Sulaco on December 28, 2008 09:57 PM
44. Portland and Seattle are similar in this respect. The problem is that the government will remain under Democrat control for the foreseeable future. Why ? Because the majority of the residents fall into 3 categories; 1) Government workers, 2) Former or retired Government workers or 3) People who do not pay Federal income taxes, because their income is not enough (~1/3 of the population in the USA)

What can be done about this phenomenon ? Not much, until the loyal opposition demonstrates an ability to think outside the box, learns to communicate more effectively and finds its charismatic leaders.

Posted by: KS on December 28, 2008 10:03 PM
45. KS - what you just said is nonsensical. No wonder the GOP is about to die.

Posted by: Crusader on December 28, 2008 10:17 PM
46. Cleanscapes here in Shoreline, hasn't picked our garbage up in 2 weeks. We got a robo call that said they will pick up our garbage next Saturday, and will pick up 3 times our normal amount for no charge! How great of them to not charge us! I feel so lucky.

Posted by: Thom on December 28, 2008 11:04 PM
47. The big lesson of this snowstorm should be that it's just a small sample of how local gov't will handle a major disaster such as an earthquake, terrorist attack, etc.

The moral of the story should be: don't rely on Gregoire, Nickels, and Sims for your life & limb. Have a plan, have canned food, have water and a filter such as are sold at REI. Be prepared to act as your own police, fire, and EMT. Have a gun, ammo, fire extinguishers and first aid kit.

Posted by: russell garrard on December 29, 2008 06:41 AM
48. Russell.

You hit it right on the head. If Seattle can't handle this little storm. Just think what well happen when we get a big shake here.

Instead the fools are worried about plastic bags.

DUMB!!!

Posted by: Medic/Vet on December 29, 2008 07:53 AM
49. Bill Cruchon: Most people here did get along just fine. They never plow our street during snow storms, which is why we own two 4WD vehicles. But we avoided Seattle during this mess, and we usually do a bit of holiday shopping downtown.

How many businesses, already in the midst of a down economy, lost revenue because the streets weren't safe? What about emergency services? How are they supposed to get access to hilly neighborhoods that have iced over roads because the city refused to use salt? This is not just 'whining', it's about priorities of government, one of which is ensuring people can conduct business and emergency services can function.

Posted by: Palouse on December 29, 2008 08:05 AM
50. I'm with Bill Cruchon on this. Stop whining and blaming other people and go out and plow your own street or something.

Posted by: Andrew Brown on December 29, 2008 08:29 AM
51. And continue to pay your taxes and STFU.

Posted by: BrownAndy on December 29, 2008 08:52 AM
52. Your taxes would increase if they provided that level of service. This is why I don't want the government providing said services, because they can't do it as effectively as private enterprise. That's supposed to be [part of] why we're conservatives.

Posted by: Andrew Brown on December 29, 2008 09:30 AM
53. @#50 I have said I think the city should have used salt. As for emergency vehicles, they chain up for this kind of weather.

Could Seattle have done better? I think so. Do we need to go into a total freakout every time in snows? I don't think so.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 09:38 AM
54. Could Seattle have done better? I think so.

Me too. I didn't "freak out", and I don't think anyone else here did either. People here are questioning the priorities of government in regards to clearing the roads. Most people, including me, thinks this should be a basic function of government, whereas the other frivolous things that Seattle spends tax dollars on, aren't.

Posted by: Palouse on December 29, 2008 09:46 AM
55. Some excellent points by Andrew Brown and Bill Cruchon.

Be careful what you wish for. I don't mind at all when gov't is a little disorganized and ditzy. Or put another way, as Kirby Wilbur says, be thankful that we do not get all the government that we pay for.

Posted by: russell garrard on December 29, 2008 10:05 AM
56. Again. No argument from me that Seattle spends a lot of dough on leftist silliness like toilets as big as condos. Yup I think not using salt was another great example of liberalism gone mad.

No, the city was not "impassible" as some commentors have stated here without naming a single street they were referring to.

Yes, I do think snow removal is one of the proper functions of government. No I don't think that means the hill where you chose to live ought to be plowed the morning after it snows. An no I don't think Seattle, where we have a snow like this maybe every 5-years needs to have an armada of snow removal equipment.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 10:09 AM
57. Crusader- What part of my comment is nonsensical ? How about making more of a substantive argument and supplying evidence of the contrary. Go for it, try and prove it wrong, but I think it won't be a slam dunk like you think.

Do you disagree that one party rule by Democrats in cities like Seattle and Portland will continue for the foreseeable future ?

Posted by: KS on December 29, 2008 10:52 AM
58. The garbage spewed by the verbal gladiators above, playing gotta-have-the-last-word without adding anything to the argument, is rather like a 'debate' in the Seattle City Council.

Those who value their time will be well advised to do something constructive around the neighborhood, and lay off this dreary topic.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on December 29, 2008 11:38 AM
59. Good grief...are you still battling this subject?

Well, it appears you're in good company as Silleattle and the PI have been mocked again!

On an unrelated note, I am proud to say

I'm an embarrassment to Barack!

I only scored 15 on the Obama Test.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 29, 2008 11:58 AM
60. I live on a private road, with a very steep grade off the public road. We deal with it when it snows every three or four years - sometimes it means chains on and off the car for about 10 minutes.

Having just returned from Vancouver BC, where it looked like it snowed more there than here - their major streets were clear (well, after the additional snow on Friday) with cars against the curbs buried. Their side streets were clogged with snow - no different than here.

In between it was no different - Everett, Bellingham, etc - all major roads clear - side streets clogged with snow and ice.

I've lived in the Seattle area my entire life - long enough to experience the...4 or 5 times... in the last 50 years where we've had snow like we just had.

What's different this time compared to before? As near as I can tell only more avenues for whiners to express themselves.

I think these storms are healthy - weeds out those folks that are soft, ill-prepared, or have landed in the wrong geography.

Hopefully some posters here will move away too since their lives were so severely impacted by this event.

Wait until we have the big earthquake...


Posted by: BA on December 29, 2008 11:58 AM
61. Willing to bet my wife and I did more "around the neighborhood" than perhaps you did IS.

If you don't like the comment stream, don't read it. Sheesh.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 12:00 PM
62. Here we are on Monday and garbage that has not been picked up for 3 weeks, but was supposed to be picked up yesterday in my neighborhood, is still out there.

The rats and the raccoons got to most of the bags over the past few nights. Today, the wind has picked up and is blowing garbage everywhere.

I've tried to do my part by picking up what I can, but there is just too much out there blowing around to make a dent in the unholy mess out there.

Posted by: bananaland on December 29, 2008 12:16 PM
63. The "3 or 4 times in 50 years" argument is bogus. It snowed and iced over in downtown Seattle about 3 or 4 years ago, and the roads weren't cleared for days then either. I know because I was working downtown at the time, and slid down one of the hills.

And again, this is not about being ill-prepared. We were, and dealt with it by not going to downtown. Why should we brave unsafe roads just to do some shopping, even if we could make it? It's about governance and their poor response, not just this time, but every time the roads are icy and it doesn't melt within a day or two.

As for not plowing hilly residential streets the next day, I agree. But at the minimum, there should be a way for emergency services to access residential areas within a few days. They closed alot of streets in Seattle because it was extremely dangerous, even with chains, to get there.

Posted by: Palouse on December 29, 2008 12:27 PM
64. I agree BA. I've lived in this area over 50-years and the only difference I notice from this storm is the amount of whining.

Getting all hacked off because your bus didn't show up in the snow, or your favorite $4.00 coffee shop couldn't open just amazes me. But we are talking about liberals. These are the same people that have a conniption if their yoga instructor gets sick and can't show up for class.

What I get upset about is when conservatives act the same way, getting bent out of shape and exaggerating about how our dumb mayor handled the storm. He could have done better, certainly. However we've had commentors claiming that roads were clear elsewhere while Seattle was virtually shut down. That wasn't true at all. It was pretty much the same everywhere as you report.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 12:27 PM
65. Bill, you may have learned that liberals have no corner on whining and complaining.

Posted by: BA on December 29, 2008 12:47 PM
66. It's as I said earlier BA, we are becoming like liberals and perhaps we don't even realize it.

The other piece here I think was a desire to point out liberal incompetence. Pretending that conservatives would have made the snow vanish so that emergency vehicles could move just makes us look ridiculous and vindictive.

Liberals look ridiculous under the best of conditions. A big snow where Seattle did just as well as anyplace else isn't the place to make the point.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 01:00 PM
67. Palouse - bogus?

Let's see - big snow in 1967, again about 1977 or 78, during the 80's there was a year with snow and temperatures for a week down in single digits - 1984 or 85 I recall.

Then, early to mid '90's a snow with significant northerly winds (we lost three cars crushed in a wind storm during that storm), now this one.

I count 5 - a couple of inches doesn't count.

I've been in NY for meetings where 2" sends people home and shuts down offices - I wonder if they complain as much as we do?

Posted by: BA on December 29, 2008 01:16 PM
68. You probably didn't read my comments sparky.

Your certainly must not have. Our garbage was picked up yesterday morning.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 01:23 PM
69. Yes BA, bogus. You don't need a huge snow storm for the city's response to be sub-par. The snow/ice a few years ago wasn't a "50 year storm" and their response was equally poor. It just didn't receive as much attention because the storm wasn't as big. Still no excuse for poor governance.

Posted by: Palouse on December 29, 2008 01:23 PM
70. The trash gets picked up every night in skanky bars.

Posted by: PC on December 29, 2008 01:24 PM
71. By comparison, which is worse: A little salt added to the ocean, or a lot of garbage rotting, spreading and being washed into the sea?

Posted by: Larry Sheldon on December 29, 2008 01:36 PM
72. Bill C,

You speculated that most streets were fine after a reasonble lenght of time. Whatever that might mean.

Roosevelt Avenue NE is a major aterial. It was a sheet of ice with no sand for 4 nights and 3 days.

I know the snow treatment history of Roosevelt. I have lived a half block from Roosevelt since 1978. Most snow events in the past were immediately sanded as the snow was coming down.

You claim that complaining (whining) about an ineffective City Government is more typical of liberals than conservatives. That is complete nonsense. Complaining about a silly, ineffective government action or policy is the job of any citizen, liberal or conservative, and I think more typical of conservatives in this city.

It is not whining. If it IS whining then you are as guilty of "whining" as anyone with your illogical rant against this thread.

I will acknowledge that ranting on the thread is much less useful than ranting to the Mayor and the City Council. And why not do a little complaining to Waste Management while one is in the mood.

Now to garbage. This morning's windstorm has knocked over my neighborhood's overstuffed re-cycle bins and garbage cans. Litter is more common than snow patches. Garbage trucks would have found my alley passable for at least the last five days.

Waste Management has been collecting income at the same time as they have avoided collecting the trash that they are being paid to collect.

Anyone want to get into the false premise of re-cycling?

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 29, 2008 01:36 PM
73. Palouse, none of these are "50-year storms" - they're maybe 10-year storms.

What can be learned from this by (as near as I can tell - every local jurisdiction) to apply to the next storm?

1. Use salt early.

If water quality is an issue in certain watersheds then modify what's used. Downtown Seattle drains into saltwater, parts of Seattle drain into fish-bearing freshwater streams - different circumstances require different solutions.

2. Buy more plows - say one for each heavy truck owned by the local government, with the gear to mount them. A thousand more plows for Puget Sound might run $10m - hardly worth talking about spread across all the jurisdictions.

3. Publish the roads that will be cleared first, and coordinate between transit agencies so that snow bus routes match the routes that are plowed. Then, plan for the fact that thousands of drivers become transit users when it snows.

4. Let folks know that their street will never be plowed. I know mine won't be (we neighbors don't own a plow), so we know what to do, and don't wait for others to help us.

5. Finally, blame government - but don't try and change anything because then you'd have to find a new thing to complain about - and that takes some effort.

Posted by: BA on December 29, 2008 01:38 PM
74. Bart, if you've lived near "Roosevelt Ave NE" since 1978 surely you know that the street has always been named Roosevelt Way. And if you're talking about that very steep section between NE 90th St and Northgate Way, only a fool would try to navigate that in the snow, sand or not. It's a very steep hill for heaven's sake and if you've lived there long enough you ought to be smart enough to navigate around it. Excuse me if I suspect that perhaps you are exaggerating.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 29, 2008 01:50 PM
75. As a lifelong liberal who has lived in this city for over 15 years, I must say the current administration in city hall has to be the among the worst.

Liberals pay taxes too and have every right to demand at least the basic services such as snow removal be handled adequately.

It doesn't do the progressive cause any good to pretend that the response from the city to the snow was anything other than a failure. This liberal doesn't need to make excuses for what is obviously a failure of leadership. Pointing out the failures is the first step in correcting them. The mayor failed.

Posted by: Proud and Liberal on December 29, 2008 02:06 PM
76. BA@76,

Great ideas. Now why is it so wrong to ask that the mayor's office come up with something like that? What that took you all of 15 minutes to put together? You are better qualified than hizzhonor.

Posted by: Common Sense on December 29, 2008 02:11 PM
77. Bill C,

Congratulations! You are correct. The street I have lived next to since 1978 is actually Roosevelt Way NE. Though the street sign and stop sign are usually obscured by branches and leaves.

I don't think my error nullifies my comments.

I am fully aware of the navigation diffuculties of that arterial during snowstorms. The City knows this situation as well, but doesn't seem to care.

Snow on Roosevelt is sport for me. I have a 1969 Jeepster Commando with a Power Lock (no spin) differential. I am only concerned for those who are not so lucky.

Here's a tip. If you're sliding downhill on a steep icy street in a 4x4, slip your transmission into reverse and adjust your elevation on the street by increasing or decreasing your engine speed, but don't put the brakes on at the bottom of the street. Better to "hover" to a stop.

If you would like a ride up or down Roosevelt during the next storm, I'd be happy to oblige.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 29, 2008 03:04 PM
78. @58 KS - I've learned to stop caring and obey my Democrat overlords. Learn to be a good slave like me.

Posted by: Crusader on December 29, 2008 03:16 PM
79. @78 Proud Liberal - learn to be good slave to your Democrat overlords and you will be much happier. The slave mindset is less stressful then trying to be a free man with futile results.

Posted by: Crusader on December 29, 2008 03:31 PM
80. Grew up in New England. Cities like Boston have posted snow routes. If they activate them, then any parked vehicles are towed, and the road is plowed repeatedly, to keep things moving. Works. Everybody expects it, and so unless you have a humongous blizzard, things just keep moving along.

Posted by: Fritz on December 29, 2008 03:37 PM
81. Or street out here in the burbs was really covered and getting into it was a real chore. On the moring of the 24th I started to shovel the street in front of my house. After a short period of time, every neighbor on the street was out with a shovel, a broom, a roofing remover (for scrapping hard ice), whatever they had, and we all worked together to try and make the street passable. In less than 45 minutes the street was clear. The same happened in the big snow of '96.

The point is that you shouldn't depend on the government for anything beyond basic services in average weather or occurrence. So why didn't the home owners of Ballard (which I drive through regularly), on any particular street, do what we did out in the evil burbs? The problem would have been solved in mere minutes.

Posted by: G Jiggy on December 29, 2008 03:43 PM
82. Looks like we may have more of these bad snow days.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/23sep_solarwind.htm

Posted by: Medic/Vet on December 29, 2008 04:17 PM
83. There is one way to solve the snow/ice o n the streets and roads in King County and especially in Seattle.

For every day the government doesn't clear the snow and ice, so that the private sector can go forth and create wealth and taxes, office bound government employees are docked one day's pay. If three days go by and no snow/ice removal, the elected officials are fired and removed from office.

Posted by: barrackslawyer on December 29, 2008 04:37 PM
84. Hmm, there is a snow/ice plan for the City of Seattle, which shows the first tier arterials to be plowed and sanded, secondary arterials that are worked if possible and what isn't touched.

The emphasis is on getting to and from freeways, some transit coordination and accessing hospitals.

Given a plan, it wouldn't be hard now to decide first if it was the right plan, second if there were enough resources to execute it properly, and third what has been learned to make improvements.

Presumably a similar exercise was conducted by FEMA after their less than stellar "good job" in New Orleans.

Look for the plan at the City's website - there are large areas of real estate that don't get a plow.

Posted by: BA on December 29, 2008 05:33 PM
85. If three days go by and no snow/ice removal, the elected officials are fired and removed from office.

Yes, you'll do anything to void those horrid "elections", which never seem to agree with your votes, right? Democracy should be invalid if it does not agree with you! (Just ask Dino Rossi in 2004, or G.W. Bush in 2000.)

I give Seattle an 'A' for our government's response to this storm. And I'll keep that in mind at our city's next election. Meanwhile, please choke on your own garbage; you've tried to inflict it on us for years.

Posted by: tensor on December 29, 2008 06:02 PM
86. 89. If three days go by and no snow/ice removal, the elected officials are fired and removed from office.

Yes, you'll do anything to void those horrid "elections", which never seem to agree with your votes, right? Democracy should be invalid if it does not agree with you! (Just ask Dino Rossi in 2004, or G.W. Bush in 2000.)

I give Seattle an 'A' for our government's response to this storm. And I'll keep that in mind at our city's next election. Meanwhile, please choke on your own garbage; you've tried to inflict it on us for years.
Posted by: tensor on December 29, 2008 06:02 PM

Conservatives, learn to eat the shit sandwich tensor just gave you. This is your fate in Seattle.

Posted by: Crusader on December 29, 2008 06:32 PM
87. Dudes, you can buy rubber garbage cans which stack inside each other; empty, they take up little more room than one empty can. They have closure handles, which you can easily convert to locking handles, in case natural selection has equipped your neighborhood raccoons with opposable thumbs. That way, you can store a month's worth of garbage, if needed. (I'd suggest looking into ways to reduce your garbage output, but you'd just scream about hippie environmentalism.)

Cripes, the snow washed away a few days ago. Stop whining.

Posted by: tensor on December 29, 2008 06:42 PM
88. tensor - just shut the fuck up already.

Posted by: Crusader on December 29, 2008 06:55 PM
89. Tensor wrote:

Dudes, you can buy rubber garbage cans which stack inside each other; empty, they take up little more room than one empty can.

But those rubber garbage cans are made with petroleum and contribute to global warming! Are you suggesting we purposefully buy extra Big-Oil products to be hoarded and used once every 10 years? Is that environmentally responsible?

Before you do that, ask yourself What Would Nickels Do?

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 29, 2008 07:08 PM
90. @93 Dan - never try to ask for consistency from disease-minded liberals.

Posted by: Crusader on December 29, 2008 07:52 PM
91. snow was maybe a case of "RROT" --reverse return on taxes;

Tent City surroundings and free drunk apartment areas were likely plowed, melted & shoveled first; the balance of the sheep quietly paid taxes and just bleated; they'll likely follow the line quitely at the next election;

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 29, 2008 09:04 PM
92. But those rubber garbage cans are made with petroleum...

Rubber is made from the sap of a tree. It is a wholly organic, carbon-neutral product, at least at the point of collection.

Now, either take responsibility for your own property -- which includes every last bit of trash you generate -- or admit that you're a socialist at heart.

tensor - just shut the fuck up already.

Only after you pick up every bit of your trash, sir, and not a moment before!

Posted by: tensor on December 30, 2008 01:34 AM
93. Tensor,

You're simply wrong. I happen to be a part owner in a rubber tree farm in Thailand (in Chaiyapum) and that rubber is used for natural latex in medical equipment. Natural rubber is extremely fluid and best suited to uses where high compliance are required over a variety of temperatures, like gloves, dental dams, seals on medical equipment, etc.

Now, industrial rubber - as you get in garbage cans - is usually a C5/C9 copolymerized hydrocarbon petroleum resin mixed with petroleum rubber or a small amount of natural rubber because it is considerably lower in compliance, better at retaining a fixed shape, handles higher stress loads, and readily accepts other additives. Not to mention being considerably lower cost than natural rubber.

I will guarantee your rubber garbage can is NOT natural rubber; it is a product of petroleum, and I'm surprised your hero Nickels hasn't banned these yet, as they (like rubber tires) are predominantly oil products.

Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 30, 2008 07:22 AM
94. He heh! Dan, tensor probably doesn't know that his computer, camera, cell phone and countless other things he uses every day are petroleum products.

Reminds me of the liberal who ranted here a couple years ago about how we are "destroying forests" with our yearly addiction to Christmas trees. I figured explaining to that guy that Christmas trees are a crop no different than corn wasn't worth the effort.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 30, 2008 12:25 PM
95. I bow to your superior knowledge. I don't use plastic garbage containers, but large metal ones, which I keep locked when not accepting garbage. Enough capacity exists to survive a week or two without collection, which just happened.

I happen to think using petroleum for plastic beats using it for motor fuel, which is why I've never owned a gasoline-powered vehicle.


Posted by: tensor on December 30, 2008 08:38 PM
96. 97 Sha. Dan--love the intelig. posts--

happy, safe, VERY prosperous '09 to you--i'm told a gold colored coin in a red envelope is the thing, right?


Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 30, 2008 09:31 PM
97. This was forwarded to me. I don't know the author.

'Twas the night before Christmas, and next to the Sound
The streets were still frozen, with snow on the ground
The Greyhounds quit running, no matter what fare
And the garbage men said they couldn't be there;
The children were driving Queen Anne in their sleds
While roofs were collapsing on old people's heads
And mamma in her boots and I in my cap,
Were stuck in the snow it was such a trap,
When at the Home Depot there arose such a clatter,
I left my car there to see what was the matter.
A group of sad souls was waving their cash
They couldn't buy shovels they were gone in a flash.
The tires were spinning and just couldn't go
And chains lay broken in old dirty snow
Then what did my eyes look over and see?
Eight representatives of SDOT
With a politician so lively and quick
I knew in a moment it was Mayor Nick.
More rapid than gun bans his excuses came,
To save our environment the roads stay the same,
On Broadway! On Boren! On Yesler and Denny!
To clear off these roads would cost such a penny!
Sliding down Thomas and over the wall!
The busses hung over and ready to fall!
He still insisted it wasn't his fault
As the world's greenest mayor he couldn't use salt
So snowy Seattle continued to stew
And Mayor St. Nick did not have a clue.
Then later that morning, I heard on the set
That people got sick while de-icing a jet
And that others couldn't get on the ferry
And the city had decided to close down Cherry.
And an accident closed the I-90 bridge,
And that people couldn't drive up on Finney Ridge.
That shovels, and salt had just flown off the shelf,
And I laughed when I heard it in spite of myself;
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
He tried to convey we had nothing to dread;
He spoke many words, but did little work,
I knew that I never would vote for this jerk.
And thumbing his nose at his citizens' woes,
He arrogantly walked on the path that he chose.
He went to his limo and refused to yield,
And left to get solar panels placed on Qwest Field.

Posted by: James D. Kellett on December 31, 2008 01:42 PM
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