Seattle has chosen not to clear city streets of snow and ice, because clearing them would require the use of salt.
The city's approach means crews clear the roads enough for all-wheel and four-wheel-drive vehicles, or those with front-wheel drive cars as long as they are using chains, [Alex] Wiggins said.
The icy streets are the result of Seattle's refusal to use salt, an effective ice-buster used by the state Department of Transportation and cities accustomed to dealing with heavy winter snows.
"If we were using salt, you'd see patches of bare road because salt is very effective," Wiggins said. "We decided not to utilize salt because it's not a healthy addition to Puget Sound."
I am not quite sure how to tell Mr. Wiggins and Mayor Nickels this, because I don't understand why they don't know it already, but here goes: Puget Sound already has salt in it. In fact, Puget Sound is connected to the Pacific Ocean, which has a lot of salt in it. And rivers all over the world are constantly adding salt to the Pacific, naturally. (Some is also being removed, mostly by natural processes, but also by man.) I don't know how to explain these facts more simply, other than giving Nickels and Wiggins water from Puget Sound and asking them to taste it.
But let me assume that they understand me to this point, so that I can give them the rest of this little arithmetic problem. Although we give the Pacific, the Atlantic, and the other oceans different names, they are all connected, all the same ocean. Salt put in the Puget Sound will, through currents and diffusion, eventually spread all over the world ocean. So, when we worry about the damage that salt might do, we have to look at the entire ocean.
For the purpose of this problem, let's use the Wikipedia estimates for the salinity and the volume of the ocean.
Average oceanic salinity is around 35 parts per thousand (ppt) (3.5%), and nearly all seawater has a salinity in the range of 30 to 38 ppt.
. . .
The area of the World Ocean is 361 million square kilometers (139 million sq mi),[5] its volume is approximately 1.3 billion cubic kilometers (310 million cu mi)[6], and its average depth is 3,790 meters (12,430 ft).[5]
For the next step, Mayor Nickels should consult Mr. Wiggins and ask him how much salt would have been required to clear Seattle's streets. With that number, Mayor Nickels should be able to calculate how much the salinity of the world ocean would have increased, if Seattle had used salt to clear its streets. Only grade school arithmetic is required to solve this problem, and I have no objection if the mayor uses a calculator.
Having that number would help us understand just how damage to the world ocean the current Seattle policy is preventing. We could even compare the number to the estimated damage caused to Seattle citizens and visitors by the current policy. (Many in this area prefer not to think about costs and benefits when discussing environmental policies, but I am hoping to gently persuade them to give that approach a try.)
(Mayor Nickels and Mr. Wiggins could alleviate the harm caused by using salt. They could buy "salt credits" by paying some company to remove salt from the ocean. Frankly, I am surprised that they have not come up with that solution already.)
Cross posted at Jim Miller on Politics.
Posted by Jim Miller at December 24, 2008 07:52 AM | Email ThisThe press release also included a paragraph on how it is possible to get through and across Seattle and its hills using public transportation, bicycles and walking. Those in the know cut the paragraph out because they noticed how hard it was to walk and bike and public transportation vehicles got stuck.
Posted by: swatter on December 24, 2008 08:06 AMI'm not saying that salt shouldn't have been excluded from Seattle, and Bellevue, and other localities snow removal plans - but your math, while interesting - is meaningless.
There's a saying that an inch between here and Chicago is irrelevant, but on then end of your nose important.
I think it's important to discern which is which.
Posted by: BA on December 24, 2008 08:07 AMIf it doesn't produce sound bites hizzoner is not interested!
Now through in a Spiro’s Pizza and he will be all over it like flies on a flat faced floogle horn
I wonder how global warming is being justified these days. Sure haven’t heard our rotund one talking about reindeer drowning this year....
Happy Who Holidays,,,,, the Grinch!
Keep those cameras working - the Mayor's next opponent(s) can make inspired use of all those photos of traffic jams, closed streets, kinetic physics problems played out by irresistable forces on wheels (versus immoveable objects embedded in concrete), and weeping victims.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on December 24, 2008 08:12 AMWhere is Al Gore. I want to punch him in the nose.
I see in todays paper that Christmas lights are killing the planet.
Where do they find these nuts. O-yeah, their Al Gore buddies.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on December 24, 2008 08:34 AMAs a fire fighter myself. I know darn well that our EMS system will be over run fast. So if the Mayor and his fools can't even handle this little mess, just ask yourselfs what's NEXT!
Posted by: Medic/Vet on December 24, 2008 08:50 AMThe Seattle version of Sodium Chloride is Nickels Annual Christmas Lobotomy.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 24, 2008 08:55 AMPortland has 2/3 the people and twice the trucks.
Seattle has some 1,500 miles of 'essential arterials' and 27 trucks, for about 56 miles per truck. One can reasonably cover 56 miles in 5 hours in bad weather conditions.
It's been something like 72 HOURS since Sunday morning, meaning those arterials could have been plowed 14 TIMES EACH. You'd think the city could spare a truck or two to plow some of the side streets.
Oh, but our plows are too wide for most streets? Fine. How about we get 20 or $1500 plow attachments for the fleet of Parks and Rec. pickup trucks?
Naaaaah. Too easy. Seattle libs don't do snow.
Posted by: SteveM on December 24, 2008 09:15 AMAnd I am disappointed that you did not solve this little arithmetic problem. Here's another source, with more numbers, if you want to take a crack at it.
H - Of course. But when we say "salt", without qualification, we mean sodium chloride. And you may want to do a search on "magnesium chloride + ocean".
from Wiki:
Magnesium chloride is much less toxic to plant life surrounding highways and airports, and is less corrosive to concrete and steel (and other iron alloys) than sodium chloride. The liquid magnesium chloride is sprayed on dry pavement (tarmac) prior to precipitation or wet pavement prior to freezing temperatures in the winter months to prevent snow and ice from adhering and bonding to the roadway. The application of anti-icers is utilized in an effort to improve highway safety. Magnesium chloride is also sold in crystal form for household and business use to de-ice sidewalks and driveways. In these applications, the compound is applied after precipitation has fallen or ice has formed, instead of previously.
you were saying....
Posted by: Rick D. on December 24, 2008 09:50 AMChief Wiggum is the head of the Springfield Police department on the Simpsons?
Could this be the same guy? D'oh!!!
Posted by: Steven on December 24, 2008 09:51 AMThey could at least attempt to use a substitute for salt that has been proven to have less of a corrosive effect on metal. The clearing of snow off the the city side streets does not appear to be occurring either, which indicates claptrap from the portly Mayor 5 cent. As mentioned, a class action lawsuit filed by a number of residents that experience significant car mishaps against the City of Seattle would bring about something more constructive instead of government by the people for themselves.
Posted by: KS on December 24, 2008 10:47 AMThe operative word there is REPEATED.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 24, 2008 11:12 AMI love it when people are so damn stupid to claim that there is no global warming becuase it snows somewhere. There are few things more humerous than total idiots who like to write stuff like "It's snowing!, so there is no global warming."
I'd like to punch them in the nose too - but unfortunately, since they lack a real brain the nose would be hard to find.
The science deniers, the flat-earthers, the global warming deniers, the cigarettes don't cause cancer idiots and the evolution deniers have a few things in common:
1. An inability to understand science, data and trends. The ability to misinterpret scientific data that is by nature not completely conclusive and come up with the WRONG answers.
2. A severe case of over-loaded ego - where they think they know more than the experts. What they don't know is often more informative than what they do know.
3. Selective view of the facts - picking out only those few outlier facts (or industry supported experts) that support their position and ignoring the vast majority of facts that crush their puny attempts at intellectual argument.
Thanks for the entertainment - no wonder the republican party is going now here in Washington state. With global warming deniers and "free market" advocates - you guys are headed for oblivion. I am so glad I left the putrid mess of the republican party - the corruption drove me away (and the profligate spending) but the lack of intellectual integrity and the right-wing knee jerk bias of the Palin wing will keep me far away from this sorry, corrupt, backward thinking party.
Posted by: correctnotright on December 24, 2008 11:18 AMI'd like to punch them in the nose too - but unfortunately, since they lack a real brain the nose would be hard to find. Me too.
And furthermore: egotists who begin their screeds with "scientists inform us..." have a few things in common:
1. An inability to understand science, data and trends. The ability to misinterpret scientific data that is by nature not completely conclusive and come up with the WRONG answers.
2. A severe case of over-loaded ego - where they think they know more than the experts. What they don't know is often more informative than what they do know.
3. Selective view of the facts - picking out only those few outlier facts (or industry supported experts) that support their position and ignoring the vast majority of facts that crush their puny attempts at intellectual argument.
Foremost among that distinguished company stands the overfed, carbon-spewing, electrical-consuming mega-palace dwelling Albert Gore. Whose incomplete 'education' fetched mediocre grades, but never did include a serious study of science. I understand he did better at pedigree politics...
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on December 24, 2008 11:43 AMPortland has more plows because they have a income tax to buy them with. Every politician in Seattle that talks about snowplows in the off season gets called a loony. Salt the kind they put on roads is 5x more expensive than sand. I sure as hell don't want Seattle to take MY property tax and spend it stockpiling salt so this bunch of whiners can complain about busses they never ride. You sound like a community group taking about how the man keeps you down.
grow a pair and learn how to drive.
Posted by: meanie on December 24, 2008 11:46 AMPeople here would rather complain about the mayor than toss a couple of bags of snow melt on their own street.
Posted by: Vince on December 24, 2008 11:59 AMTells you a lot, doesn't it?
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 24, 2008 12:11 PMBy Al Engler
And as for your insistence that you ever were a Republican... look, I'm all about the GOP big tent, but it's never been big enough to cover scum like you.
And oh, how I wish you could take a swing at me.... idiot.
Posted by: Hinton on December 24, 2008 12:30 PMLOL.
OOO-yeah. Threats over the net, makes me so scared!
Be careful who you insult there bud. Some just may not be so nice to you afterwards.
Don't ya just love kids.
Posted by: Medic/Vet on December 24, 2008 02:23 PMWe have 30 years of satellite data to look at for climate changes. How much has the temperature changed over that time? The answer is ZERO net temperature change over the last 30 years. So can you tell us how "global warming" is actually happening, since the most accurate measurements we have don't support your conclusion?
Meanie dribbled out:
Portland has more plows because they have a income tax to buy them with.
Wrong. Portland does NOT have an income tax; the State of Oregon does. Seattle is ahead of Portland in that Seattle has a Seattle-only sales tax; Portland does not have its own dedicated income tax.
The reason Portland has more snow plows is because the leadership in Seattle is ignorant, and unwilling to do the minimum. For $1500 you can get a snow plow attachment for every city truck and SUV (even the one the mayor rides around in). For less than $1 million - the cost of a few automatic toilets that we tossed - we could easily quadruple the number of snow plows we have on the streets.
It's incompetence, and of course enablers like you simply help keep those idiots in power...
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 24, 2008 03:04 PMI've tried hard to not say anything that I wouldn't say to a person on the next bar stool. I don't think I've been perfect in that regard.
If someone wants to come and try sticking a fist in my face it's easy enough to find me.
We always had to use our names when we wrote letters to the editor. It was a requirement. I get why people might wish anonymity particularly if they have children. But if I were king everyone posting on a blog would have to use their own name. It might change the tenor of the discourse a bit.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 24, 2008 03:06 PMPlease refer to my comments about internet threats I just posted less than an hour ago at #34.
For heaven's sake, it's Christmas Eve.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 24, 2008 03:30 PMThe alternative is that Seattle is dumping, on average, THREE FEET of pure water into Puget Sound every year, reducing the salinity of Puget Sound! Perhaps Nickels should be salting the roads year round?
Spokane uses liquid de-icer (which is a different type of salt, calcium chloride or similar) because this does not cause as much corrosion to the underbody of automobiles.
Seattle's explanation of deliberating creating danger to people and an unusable transportation system is the work of politically correct morons.
Posted by: Ed on December 24, 2008 03:35 PMThe air temperature has bounced around freezing for a week. Any patches of bare pavement get covered with black ice overnight. If we'd scraped the roads clean of snow, ice, and the top layer of pavement, the salt would have washed away, and we would have had black ice every morning. I live on Capitol Hill, and I work six miles from there. My biggest problem in descending the hill every morning was the black ice. I finally took to wearing my heavy, waterproof, eight-inch-high boots for my commute, and I deliberately chose the patches of untrodden snow, for safety.
I'm glad to see my city did not play the sucker's game, of trying to outperform a storm. Plowing and salting the roads would greatly increase the upcoming repaving bills, and storing equipment against a ten-year storm would waste money for nine years. As for our possible performance in an earthquake, I hope President Obama can clean the corruption and incompetence out of FEMA, because a huge earthquake-- especially after a week of soaking the soil, like this one -- would completely overwhelm whatever we locals could do. We'll need smart, prepared, coordinated help from outside the area, not some fool playing with a cake and a guitar while we struggle.
Glad to see that you tough-guy glibertarian GOP types immediately become weepy bags of slop when confronted by the slightest of challenging conditions, and go running to your big nanny state for solutions. (If we visit the exterior of your residences, do we see every paved surface clean of snow and ice, and salted/sanded to perfection?) I put in a full week at work, and even did some overtime.
Go move to some Deep South, red-state sinkhole of poverty and corruption, and leave the tough winter weather to we liberals who can handle it.
Posted by: tensor on December 24, 2008 03:45 PMSpeaks for itself.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 24, 2008 03:57 PMHeck, we haven't had a bit of trouble getting around with just my wife's old front wheel drive Corolla. I've got good tires on it and we've been able to go anywhere we need to. I saw no reason to mess with chains.
I just heard on the news as I type this that people in Seattle are saying that "environmental issues are overblown" over the salting controversy. Liberalism and reality often don't mix particularly well. Which only makes me continue to wonder why anyone would choose to be a liberal.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 24, 2008 04:21 PMHere is the most accepted methodology for determining average global temperatures:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/
or
the correction to the McKitrick papeer - that has been debunked here:
http://timlambert.org/2004/04/mckitrick/
Denny Way is closed, from Olive Way to Stewart Street. I saw an impromptu snowboard ramp set up, near the bottom. Good fun!
Um, Bill, read several recent posts on SoundPolitics. Are they liberals?
I'm going up to the mountains on Boxing Day. See you on the slopes, the snow should be divine!
Posted by: tensor on December 24, 2008 04:45 PMEd - Thanks for doing those calculations. Everyone, but especially Mayor Nickels, should follow your example.
(Oh, and a few people should review my ignoratio Elenchi post.)
Posted by: Jim Miller on December 24, 2008 06:37 PM