That abrasive title is a comparable statement to part of what is now on display at our state capitol, thanks to the wit and wisdom of PR-challenged atheists:
With a nod to the winter solstice - the year's shortest day, occurring in late December - the placard reads, in part, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."The foundation's co-president, Dan Barker, said it was important for atheists to offer their viewpoint alongside the overtly religious Nativity scene and Christmas-style holiday tree.
"Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."
The semi-amusing twist is that the AP coverage via the P-I fails to acknowledge that even a fully decorated Christmas tree is still an utterly secular symbol. Hint: if it's a federal holiday, it's secular. Now the Nativity scene, THAT's religious.
To this, atheists felt the need to make the public statement that religion stinks. I'm pleased as punch they have a free-speech opportunity to express that. Their PR tact, however, seems a little lacking.
UPDATE: link updated.
Posted by Eric Earling at December 01, 2008 08:41 PM | Email This(Heck, the Christians didn't even come up with the "Jesus is the literal Son of God" bit until the Council of Nicea, which was held about 386 CE. It could be that Jesus was simply saying we're all children of God (or the God and Goddess, if you're into Wicca or Asatru).)
But I digress. It just so happens that December 25th was the Pagan Roman holiday of Saturnalia. Also, December 25th was very close to Yule (usually December 21st), the Northern and Western European Pagan holy day marking the Winter Solstice. The early Christians just marketed December 25th as Jesus's birthday to make it easier for the Northern and Western European Pagans to adopt Christianity as their religion.
Of course, if the marketing campaign didn't work, the church could always resort to "conversion at the point of a sword." That was a harsh but effective method of bringing the "benefits" of Christianity to the "barbarians" of the Northern and Western Europe areas.
Posted by: Politically Incorrect on December 1, 2008 10:11 PMWhy should atheists not be able to proselytize without being thought rude too?
Posted by: Giffy on December 1, 2008 10:13 PMThe First Ammendment protects freedom OF religion. Since they are promoting freedom FROM religon they have no standing.
Posted by: joe on December 1, 2008 11:00 PMMay they all rot in Hell, just as scripture says they all will.
Posted by: Independent Voter on December 2, 2008 05:13 AM
Bruce, are you saying having the tree and nativity scene at the capitol is an "establishment of religion"?
Of course the Christmas tree, as pointed out above, was originally a pagan symbol and December 25th (the national holiday) was also a date that was picked to accomodate the pagans.
I always get a kick out of the people who say that the US is a "Christian" nation. What christian religion are they referring to?
The Puritans who set up a church state in New England and tortured, burned to death and drowned what would today be considered evangelical christians? They also drowned witches, pagans and anyone who did not agree wtih them.
With this in mind, the Founding fathers made sure that religion would not be state-imposed. Of course the Puritans came here fleeing....religious persecution in England. How ironic.
Posted by: correctnotright on December 2, 2008 07:43 AMA disconnect from reality? me thinks so.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 2, 2008 08:15 AMDamn it! I am agnostic and now I am doubly offended! :)
As an agnostic, are you sure about that? :)
Posted by: Shanghai Dan on December 2, 2008 08:22 AMSo, there is no atheist celebration here, there is simply "You religious folk are fools" kind of message which offers nothing positive for atheists and provides only negatives for those who do have a religious faith.
Posted by: Eyago on December 2, 2008 08:25 AMAnd by who's power do you call down damnation?
Posted by: Eyago on December 2, 2008 08:35 AMI mean the Hindus don't demand equal time for their religion on Christmas. The Christains don't demand equal time for their religion on Yom Kippor.
And on the 4th of July we don't give equal time to a celebration of Great Britan achievements (despite us being good friends now).
In comparision atheiests insist on getting equal time during other people's religious Holy Days.
It's simply being rude and intolerant. But I forgot, those terms can only apply to Christains now.
Posted by: Cicero on December 2, 2008 09:09 AMThe busybody atheists who whine about Christmas, 10 commandments in the courthouse, etc. are not representative of most atheists and agnostics, any more than Rev. Phelps is representative of Christians.
The vestigal symbolism such as having 'In God we trust' on coins is a trivial concern. The law should not be used to address trivial concerns.
The real problem is that we have a leviathan government. As gov't grows ever bigger, religion gets squeezed out of more places due to the First Amendment. Yet many times it is religious leaders who are the first to call for bigger government.
Posted by: russell garrard on December 2, 2008 09:10 AMI find their statement to be sooooo ironic. They run around countering displays of faith by stating their own condition-religion. They are religious because they have rules they must follow that are concrete and immutable. It hardens their heart and traps them into responding to displays of faith out of minds enslaved to being offended.
Where has faith failed and atheism worked? Cambodia, Germany, France, Cuba?
At least they are open to God and are aware of their creator because they do see that faith is tangible and life giving. They just choose a strict set of rules to boost their pride and stay trapped by responding to faith.
Without others faith what would atheists have?
Posted by: Col. Hogan on December 2, 2008 09:19 AMWhere does the childishness end?
Posted by: KW64 on December 2, 2008 09:47 AMThey never stop, and they're never happy.
If they weren't such a mean, humorless bunch I'd almost feel sorry for them.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 2, 2008 10:34 AM@23 There is a bit of a difference between a sign on neutral ground and going to a person place of worship. Mostly just general politeness.
I will happily say right here that there is no Allah.
Posted by: Giffy on December 2, 2008 10:58 AM>Where has faith failed and atheism worked?
Where has theocracy worked? That seems to be what many people here are advocating. Besides Winter Solstice has been around century's longer than Christianity.
A REAL atheist will wear a PERSONAL sign proclaiming his dedication to not being dedicated to God and that he will be happily working on those horrible HOLYdays to prove it.
We'll wait for it.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 2, 2008 11:12 AMBut many of us atheists take the day off because it's a chance to be with loved ones who do observe it, or because our workplace in this mostly Christian nation is closed. Duh.
Posted by: Bruce on December 2, 2008 11:40 AMActually, the whining is coming from the petulant children that feel they need to counter a religious holiday with a placard denouncing it as 'enslaving minds'. Further keeping within the liberal standards of intolerance and bitter, angry toddleresque temper tantrum throwing behavior.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 2, 2008 11:46 AMThe stench of hypocrisy: we don't want YOU to enjoy your HOLYday, but we want all its advantages.
Stinks, eh?
I went to battle with King County Library System a few years ago when they decided it was appropriate to be open on Easter. I checked with my local branch and the folks there were very upset that they had to be open and would not have "a chance to be with loved ones who do observe it". The excuse KCLS gave me was that there were "a few" upset they could not earn that day.
I will grant you hospitals and emergency services. Not much else.
But hey, if you have an office you can be productive THERE whether it's open or not. I'll be looking for your 'PERSONAL sign proclaiming your dedication to not being dedicated to God and seeing that you are happily working on those horrible HOLYdays to prove it.'
Additionally there are plenty of staff members at the non-religiously affiliated hospitals that are religious and again bust their hineys to make it fair to everybody who has to work on those days.
It's all fine to say something like that until you actually come across a reader that works in the field and can authoritatively tell you that you sir are full of crap.
Posted by: MrRcguy on December 2, 2008 12:24 PMWe used to drive through the grounds of the State mental institution every Christmas in the 60's and look at the displays, displays that were all Christ centered.
Not now they are all Winter festival themed. I refuse participation.
And I will add that back then (I lived a stone's throw from Western State Hospital) when psychotic people used to live there and lead a more "normal" and genuine life than they have since. It was not depressing.
Many of the current/retired house keeping, kitchen etc staff used to meet up with me on my walks/actually bike rides around Fort Steilacoom Park and, to a person, they (those who had been there since the early 60's) were sick at heart about what the "reforms" the 60's wrought on people they loved (residents/patients).
I also used to attend daily mass at the hospital in their small chapel and I was a close friend of patients who had not been thrown onto the streets and they too used to wax regrettably about what their "home," that they accepted as such (the hospital), had morphed into.
Christian volunteers of every stripe used to show up daily (taking vacation from work in most cases) to work with patients on their spiritual life. This was abolished long ago, but many still long for it.
They (patients) most regretted the loss of the spiritual basis , kicked to the curb in the late 60's early 70's, of their lives (now limited to mass or church attendance). They were/are crazy, in a clinical sense, but they remember. The ones who counted themselves as lucky that they had not YET been discharged again, that is. They love being normal and being able to once again be able to embrace Christ. Just think how terible it would be to be so f'cked up that YOU were not able to have the opportunity?
In the 60's and before we had an imperfect system, wherein abuses were common, but we also had a hospital that provided regimentation that worked "miracles" by making people take their meds, take a shower, keep their hair neatly trimmed, work at their job on the Hospital farm or wherever they "fit in." The problems were mainly in wards that VOLUNTEERS worked with patients that were so abusive to themselvs and others that they had to be kept in a vegitative state so as not to harm their selves or others. I said VOLUNTEERED to work, many times one or two days per week was all they could take. I say VOLUNTEERED to work, got it. My best friend's mother was admitted repeatedly and sent home back then and I visited the wards back then when I was a kid. There were wards that had "normal" people who just lived there, these people are all now dead, cardboard sign at the freeway types or street prostitutes. You libs did this, not Ronald Reagan - by the time he was in office the HSH's were emptied. Thanks Jimmy F'n Carter for not doing a Goddamnrd thing about this.
Look, the groundskeepers, kitchen help and housekeeping staff were simply observers of what went on. They lived as my neighbors because they could walk across the Hospital farm to work and remained my neighbors after they retired. Many of them were German women maried to career military men and they were so open and honest with me regarding what they whitnessed that they often broke down with tears because they could recognize what was transpiring but could not affect. I was one of the first that they had confided to because our relationships had just grown from the beauty of the season to our talking about our lives.
For most they had no PHD in psychology, they had no agenda, they were just very smart people who cared so much about their friends (the patients) that they were overcome just talking to someone about it. There were also two PHD's amongst them though. People who had dedicated THEIR LIVES to the crazy. People who.... you get what I am thinking.
They were simply the friends of patients who they saw turned loose with medication (that they almost never took) and without the spiritual dirrection that they lived their lives around.
They were crying about what had happened to their friends (former patients) after they left the institutuion that provided them with a regimented life that "worked" for them. They were just heartsick. They took home much more than a paycheck. They took their friends lives home with them.
You were not there, I was and to have them just open up left me limp for days. Many times they said that I was the first person they had really opened up to, other than their spouse. I, everyday riding my bicycle with my dogs hunting pheasants, was someone all of them, sooner or later, just had to "figgure out." They were walking there and I was riding and then stopping and encouraging my dogs to "hunt em' up." Lady and Annie (my dogs at the time) and I were just unwinding what the world is about and "hunting" pheasants. Riding around the park just unwinding and thinking.
What the hell happened was reform. "Baby out with the bathwater" reform that used all of those with mental problems as societies guinea pigs. Real people being used as Guinea Pigs. Real people who just wanted to ..... just wanted to live out their lives in the comfort and security of KNOWING that Christ loves them.
The people who I used to attend mass with (employees/former employees) used to see patients who had been "discharged" come back "a mess" time and time again. They also spoke of how the spiritual element (Christian) that was no longer allowed to be a focus there - no longer allowed to give these people focus was missing.
You didn't live it - I did, before you tell me that to imerse these limited people in Christianity was an abuse in itself, ask yourself what harm was done in grounding someone in faith that gave them dirrection and purpose and allowed them a focus on which to ground their sometimes childlike life?
Not to say that Christianity is childish, it is anything but - BUT Christ made sure to it that it was available to all. Not all of us are Saint Thomas, but He made Christianity avaliable to both the smartest amongst us and to those of us who are more limited. Like me. Think about the most devout people you know, do they not transcend the intillectual spectrum? Ya' doggoned better believe they do. Christ did not leave anybody out. What is more - how many times has a child, or one with severe limitations, brought you into closer communion with Christ? I'll bet it is a bunch. THAT IS WHY THIS ASSAULT ON CHRISTMAS IS SO DEAR TO THEM.
I could give a flyin' fuck that there was an element of coersiviness to what was happening. The goal was to stabilize people who were not in control of their life and give them purpose and dirrection in a positive dirrection. AND getting them involved in Christ, once they were stabilized, did just that.
The left saw this as a "danger," people frequently with limited capacity were obsesively connected to Christianity, and the "job" they were compelled to do, i.e.working on the Hospital farm. BUT, it's all they talked about, they were absolutely centered on their routine and lived out their lives, albeit in an institution, doing something productive AND something they loved so much that it was all they talked about.
In come the 60's and we have "advances" (getting rid of Christianity) that can allow SOME to live outside the institution and the left uses this to gut the Christ centered program that had been useful for so many. I focus on the regimentation element and on faith, because I heard it so often, many patients (residents) who were "set free" from the institution, kicking and screaming, that they wanted to stay in.
I'm sure there were successes in freeing SOME (a small minority), but so, so often - patients were only to come back a total mess (add street prostitution to what these people had to deal with before being turned loose).
When they returned they ALL (every Goddamned one of them) sat and "pill rolled" day in and day out (pill rolling is - pretend you have a little pebble in your palm and are sitting staring at your hand rolling a peble aroung in your palm with your fingertips. I'm serious do this, DO IT, and you will instantly recognize what you have seen "crazy" people doing on our streets today.
DO IT, pill roll. They mostly went from institutionalized wards of the State who were living out their days just plodding along worshiping Jesus Christ - to living a life of victimizing society or of being the "cheapest piece of ass on the streets," or both.
Totally drug and alcohol and drug addicted human garbage. What a Goddamned life!! Some compassion. Well "they are living their own life as they want to live it" says the left. Fuck you. Fuck you ten times over. To let the wolves prey on these people is not compassion any way you slice it. To say so is such total nonsense it is ludicrous - to take what has worked for so long and then just scrap it in response to a few "hard cases" as ludicrous and an abuse in itself.
OKey the Hospital farm had to go because people were being "forced" to work on it, Christianity had to go because it was involuntary "coersion." In fact the "work" and the spiritual part was the highlight of most of every patient's day and I have to believe their sincerity, once their condition had been stabilized THEY made it the center of their life, for MOST but not all of them was not so involuntary. To think otherwise is to discount the value of antipsychotics in restoring rational thought to every other aspect of their lives. The
The people who destroyed the mental health institutions, as they existed at the time, sang hosannahs to the value of antipsychotics for every other aspect of their lives. They absolutely went insane about mental patients being imersed in something (work and Christianity) that gave them dirrection and a sense of hope/fulfilment.
Look we were a Christian nation and WE KNEW about the power of having God in one's life. WE LIVED IT OURSELVES. Atheists were so Goddamned hate filled that they took this work away from the people who had accepted Christianity and spirituality and used both to live the best life they could because of their abject hate for God, Christ and all that it promises. Atheists are nothing, if not hatefilled human beings. They also took it away from those who it most benefitted here in this world. Atheists are aligned with Lucifer and if nothing else will convince you of this this shouild. To take away hope and love is the work of satin.
I really could give two hoots and a holler about those of you that will say "you were going to DAILY mass and the people you were talking to were likewise DAILY MASS attendees therefore predisposed to reach the same conclusions you did. Yes some were, a minority. BUT most of them were simply people who saw me in Fort Steilacoom Park walking my dogs and stopped to chat. Some of them were PHD's who had retired from the State Hospital, but most of them were simply retired WSH staff. They went to work each day and simply (as oposed to the "know it all" crowd" were just observing").
They are not dumb, they had nothing to gain, they are the "you and I's" who know a lot more than we are given credit for.
And YES, you can ask my brother, I used to attend daily mass before jumping on my bike with Annie and Lady and going "hunting" for the pheasants I had released in the park (the old Hospital farm) for our entertainment (we found them some of them and flushed them every day). Then I went home and showered and changed before going to class at Fort Steilacoom College (now Pierce College).
Here is a clue dimwit, mental institutions emptied out due to government policy after two main causes:
1. More effective drugs for schizophrenia ( I hope you are taking yours), depression and other mental disorders.
2.Many mental institutions were invetigated and found to be abusing patients or peopel without real mental disorders were being committed to them involuntarily.
Blaming the advent of effective drugs on liberals is just plain stupid and if you think so highly of said mental institutions, you are welcome to GO BACK to one.
Posted by: correctnotright on December 2, 2008 12:45 PMHad they truly felt the need to ACT upon their beliefs (non-beliefs???) they would hold a national press conference explaining that since they did not recognize any God and therfore could not recognize the day/season of His birth or any day/celebration having to do with a God, they would prove themselves by opting out of the equation and showing up for their jobs. And if their job was dependant upon a public that honored the HOLYdays for what they are, then they would be productive in another way such as cleaning public bathrooms, picking up litter...
But we all know that's not going to happen because it's not about not "believing". It's about harassing those who do using their freedom of speech.
Too bad they don't have the courage to just be honest about it.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 2, 2008 01:40 PMDone it many times.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on December 2, 2008 01:43 PMI love these fools. Ok, mr smart guy.
Look up 1970's & ACLU suit!
The court case closed these places down, and states were more then happy to agree.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on December 2, 2008 01:52 PMIt wasn't that at all. It was a lovely time of decorated trees, presents, and most of all a time when families gathered together.
I think the "war on Christmas" is really more of the left's continuous war on the traditional family.
I didn't grow up in a religious home, however Christmas was always the most magical, warm, family day of the year.
Sad indeed are those who want to ruin Christmas for everyone. How empty their hearts must be.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on December 2, 2008 02:13 PM@47 militant athism is indeed a hate filled creed. It is not neutral or disinterested, it is pure hate.
Posted by: JDH on December 2, 2008 02:46 PM@47 militant athism is indeed a hate filled creed. It is not neutral or disinterested, it is pure hate.
Posted by: JDH on December 2, 2008 02:47 PM�Atheists felt the need to make the public statement that religion stinks. I'm pleased as punch they have a free-speech opportunity to express that. Their PR tact, however, seems a little lacking.� Okay����. How about that little symbol that so many Christians like to wear around their necks and place on top of their buildings? That�s the old Roman state execution tool. The modern �crucifix� would be a firing squad, or a hangman�s noose. Want your kids to walk by an ornamental hangman�s noose everyday on the way to school? In many ways religion does stink.
More innocents have been killed, mutilated, imprisoned, oppressed, and generally bothered in the name of religion than in the name of atheism, and you know it. We are evolving, get with it. The future has no gods.
Hats off to Bill O'Reilly for fighting back against those pompous jackholes. More churches should stand up against this crap.
The atheist/ACLU argument of separation of church and state is constantly being erroneously used out of context - the Constitution does not address it.
ALL gods exist.
In the living minds of their human hosts.
End of story.
Honor your tribe's religious beliefs.
They were designed by humans to facilitate cooperation. That SHOULD include productive interaction between the religious and the atheists.
Just before the last human becomes dust, all gods will vanish, though life on earth will continue.
That is MY belief. Pray for me if you like. I will be thankful for your concern until my last conscious moment.
Bruce, #38 - I've been told by people who work in essential services, that the trading of religious holidays works both ways. Jews (and others) work the Christian holidays, and Christians offer to work the Jewish, Buddist, etc. holidays. The mutual respect seems to work well, except for the angry athiests.
Heard part of an interview with the athiest wife. IMO she has some kind of faith, it just isn't Christian...and pissy about it too.
Posted by: dl on December 2, 2008 11:45 PM
Dear Governor Gregoire,
Last night I sat in disbelief while I watched Bill O'Reilly of Fox News broadcast an embarassing story regarding a highly offensive atheist display at our state's capital building. While I can acknowledge the many beliefs of people, I do not understand why you as our Governor would allow such an offensive display in our state's Capital building. You are accomodating a very small segment of people with atheist beliefs while offending and embarassing the majority of Washington citizens and others. You allowed Washington State to look like a bunch of far left weirdos with no concern and respect for other people's beliefs. The Christmas tree and decorations displayed at the Capital do not in and of themselves make any offensive statements against another group's beliefs. The atheist display was offensively over the top.
Shock and awe in our state's Capital is not what the people of Washington State represent. You as a Democratic Governor would be better respected by refusing to pander to every special group out there. Where will you draw the line now? Your decision to display this disgusting and offensive sign at the Capital building disrespected every non-atheist citizen. Congress should just send you a bag of coal this Christmas rather than the millions you need for our state's deficit!
It is my hope you have the good judgement to remove this display immediately.
Posted by: Valentina Heart of Valentina on December 3, 2008 11:31 AM
Dear Governor Gregoire,
Last night I sat in disbelief while I watched Bill O'Reilly of Fox News broadcast an embarassing story regarding a highly offensive atheist display at our state's capital building. While I can acknowledge the many beliefs of people, I do not understand why you as our Governor would allow such an offensive display in our state's Capital building. You are accomodating a very small segment of people with atheist beliefs while offending and embarassing the majority of Washington citizens and others. You allowed Washington State to look like a bunch of far left weirdos with no concern and respect for other people's beliefs. The Christmas tree and decorations displayed at the Capital do not in and of themselves make any offensive statements against another group's beliefs. The atheist display was offensively over the top.
Shock and awe in our state's Capital is not what the people of Washington State represent. You as a Democratic Governor would be better respected by refusing to pander to every special group out there. Where will you draw the line now? Your decision to display this disgusting and offensive sign at the Capital building disrespected every non-atheist citizen. Congress should just send you a bag of coal this Christmas rather than the millions you need for our state's deficit!
It is my hope you have the good judgement to remove this display immediately.
Posted by: Valentina Heart of Valentina on December 3, 2008 11:32 AMReplace the word 'religion' in that sentence with any other protected class (homosexuals, African-Americans, handicapped persons, etc.) and mention that this class of people has "hardened hearts and enslaved minds" and see what sort of trouble it causes.
The fact that the Governor is allowing this to sit on State property is a lawsuit in the making and guess who's going to have to pay the court costs?
I guess I didn't realize how lucky we were when the rest of the country ridiculed us over the moonbats who were focused solely on the welfare of owls and fish.
Posted by: Smoley on December 3, 2008 01:39 PMYou said: "Most "Science" these days is pure philosophy since almost all of what they say is out of the realm of observance or reproduction in a lab, for example "Super String Theory". You have to suspend the laws of physics in order to make the math work..."
1. Incorrect: The sciences you speak of (physics, chemistry, etc.) are only desribed by the math. You don't necessarily suspend any science just because of human perception of the world. Physics is the practice of describing the laws of the universe (though I've also heard it called the science of everything else.)
To describe the universe, we use models - usually mathematical - and they don't necessarily reflect our perception. The first pictures you saw of atoms were only models. The don't exist that way. We now can also describe them using molecular orbital calculations and there are components of the equations that have no physical analog. That is often viewed as a 'cloud' of electrons. Other models: electrons tunnel, Einstein's relativity model that replaced Newton's,light is both a wave and light a particle. (That was Einstein's discovery and how he earned his Nobel prize. If you know a little about this, then you know that even a moving bowling ball can be described as a wave.) On and on.
2. I agree that atheism is hard to prove but would go further - it is provably impossible to prove it. If God didn't exist, then there would be a complete lack of any evidence whatsoever that you could use to prove or disprove. A single verifiable artifact or sign is enough to prove existence.
Christians and other religons have 'things' from God that they can point to. They still can't prove that they are from God but they at least there's enough evidence for faith to exist.
Posted by: mykela on December 3, 2008 02:03 PMYes she has... but sadly, as represented by Seattle, IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE, and it reflects her attitude and governing perfectly! Everything about Olympia is a slap in the face to the citizens.
The mindset of Seattle (the attitudes, the smugness, the loony liberalism, the nuts of every stripe and the general licentiousness) is an absolute anathema to the rest of mainstream America... all while Seattle likes to think it's normal.
It's NOT.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 3, 2008 02:17 PMIn this culture, it is linked to Christmas, which is the second most important holiday of the year to Christians.
To say that a Christmas tree is secular is like saying that those who try heroin don't tend to try alcohol and marijuana first. The Christmas tree is an entry way to talk about what the holiday is supposed to be "about." And that is the birth of Christ, among other things.
Look, I totally agree with the message and the tactics of the atheists. Their point was to prove that if you allow one kind of display on the topic of religion, you must allow others. This only leads to conflict. Their goal is the elimination of any such displays on government land.
The best thing to do is to not have ANY displays on government land. If you want to have such a display, put it on private land.
This is the truce that the Founders of this great nation hit upon when they wrote the first amendment.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on December 3, 2008 04:20 PMIn its letter, the ACLJ said the Supreme Court has clearly indicated that governmental bodies are free to celebrate the holiday season with symbols of the season. In a 1989 decision, the high court said: "The Christmas tree, unlike the menorah, is not itself a religious symbol. Although Christmas trees once carried religious connotations, today they typify the secular celebration of Christmas." Furthermore, the Supreme Court and numerous lower courts have held that nativity scenes and menorahs may be displayed on government property without violating the constitution.
Get over it.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 3, 2008 04:30 PM..which is why we see them 365 days a year in churches and cathedrals worldwide, right?
Tell me you aren't this mindnumbingly retarded to actually post that, Bruce.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 4, 2008 09:57 PMA small fir tree in a forest in June is not a symbol. But cut it down and decorate it in November with lights and ornaments and it is obviously a Christmas tree.
And I coach Special Olympics, and I have a lot of friends who are developmentally disabled, so let's not call each other "retarded" OK? :)
A Christmas tree is a religious symbol. It first symbolized eternal life, before the Christians adopted (co-opted it) to stand for the survival of the soul in heaven and the supposed resurrection of Jesus.
How can you not see that?
Atheists and Jews who put up Christmas trees do so in spite of the religious connotations.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on December 4, 2008 10:20 PMThat said, I think you're way off on this one. The palm leaves and ashes used during Ash wednesday has a direct connection with a religious ceremony and thus is indeed a religious symbol.
An evergreen cut down, decorated with garland, lights and ornaments hardly qualifies as being in the same league. Even most secularists agree that the Christmas tree is a secular symbol which is why until the nativity scene was introduced to the Capital (which can be argued is indeed a religious symbol) then the tidal wave of competing forces began flooding the capital with their requests, Menorah, Atheist hate speech placard, etc.
Personally, everything but the tree should be removed because we move down this slippery slope that we're seeing now if we let every nutjob in to display their particular message, i.e. Satanists, KKK, Nation of Islam, etc.
The tree should be grandfathered in because:
A) It's a tradition
B) It's secular
C) It does not promote any religion
I could think of others, but I don't want to dawdle on this before work. Can't we just back to having this be a joyous and wonderful season that you grew up with? Celebrate by exchanging gifts, visiting family you ignore all year, volunteer at at the VA, retirement home,homeless shelter, etc. Don't suffer from the Paralysis of analysis of "Christ-mas" and just do your own thing for these next few weeks.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 5, 2008 06:45 AMThe court found that the "Christmas" tree and Menorah on display at the rotunda were overtly religious, as pointed out and aptly explained here by Bruce Guthrie.
You're free to disagree. But you're ultimately asking the courts and the government to split a pretty fine hair. If the government acts to create a forum for the expression of religious ideas, even if some of those ideas are culturally confused, then they have no choice but to grant access to all interested parties.
Posted by: ROTCODDAM on December 5, 2008 04:40 PMWelcome to SanFranSeattle values folks...where the only thing considered normal is perversion.
Posted by: Rick D. on December 5, 2008 06:03 PM
Really?? It is non religious people that have caused the most of this..
do you want me to show you how many deaths and brutal tortures are done by non religious people comparatively? you may try to weasel out with the wording that atheists do not kill for their faith ..then why do they Kill and Torture more people than all religion combined no matter how self righteous you think you are at least God believing people know we need one!
Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong, Pol Pot produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 75 million people.
why not go back from the start of religion and count up all the death tolls and compare it to just these 3 atheists.
"It is true that Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot, were all atheists. But the primary influences that led to their atrocities were not atheism per se but their dogmatic Marxism and communist ideas"
this is how some atheists respond to the evidence by simply trying to side step it I can side step also but I will not because the death toll is way more against the atheists than believers of God even though there are way more believers in God ..ya this world would be way better off without religion what a joke!
oh and the salem witch trials that so many people scream about, Over 150 people were arrested and imprisoned, with even more accused who were not formally pursued by the authorities. The two courts convicted twenty-nine people of the capital felony of witchcraft. Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged. One man (Giles Cory) who refused to enter a plea was crushed to death under heavy stones in an attempt to force him to do so. At least five more of the accused died in prison ..
this is the story the death count was small but because it was religious it is sensationalized
yes of course it was Bad, however,
what you get the murders committed by God believers are sensationalized and all the others by non religious people barely spoken of ..
Posted by: larry D on December 8, 2008 10:36 PM