September 24, 2008
Strike? What Strike?
Is it me, or is the current Boeing Machinists strike the quietest such major, local work stoppage in memory?
Posted by Eric Earling at September 24, 2008
09:15 PM | Email This
1. These union guys are gonna find themselves out of a job. In this economy, slowed dramatically by
a Bush hating biased media, they ought to be
glad they even have a job. Would someone explain
to me what it is that democrats do for union
workers?
2. These various September strikes are like Ground Hog Day... interesting for a day then we weather either spring or more winter. In the end, who cares... ESPECIALLY in these economic times where bloated union begging (and receiving) has destroyed other American industries (the auto industry comes to mind). These unions and their bloated begging are obsolete... we just need to convince them to accept the premise of I-1000!
3. My wife works for an aerospace company that has Boeing as a customer. Her hours have been cut back and our household income has gone down due to the strike.
She won't get strike pay or other considerations. She won't end up with a signing bonus, or back pay, or a large pay raise. There won't be anything added to her retirement account.
Strikes don't affect just unions or management.
There is a lot of collateral damage caused by strikes.
4. I think, and I base this on having various family members employed at Boeing, is that Boeing workers don't have any perspective on how good their benefits are compared to the rest of the work force, and also that they overestimate their value in the employment market. Yes, they are skilled workers...for working at Boeing. In many cases, their skills would not directly transfer to another industry. Again, this is just based on the Boeing employees that I know personally; your mileage may vary.
5. I've known three people that worked for Boeing.
Two of them were idiots and ended up getting laid off, then groused about it for a year and a half while not looking for more work, and then lost their houses.
The truly impressive thing is that the second guy watched the first one do it, and then did the same thing anyway.
I've never seen a unionized workplace that didn't accumulate worthless slackers by the dozen.
6. Well, we have Obama setting us up for a little guy bailout after the Wall Street bailout. We have had promise of lots of Democrats being elected this season translating into more bennies.
However, I still go back to the world economy. We are competing globally. France just got the tanker contract over Boeing (I know, the status is still in limbo but the point isn't), and the rest of the private sector is fighting the world market with one hand tied behind their backs (excessive US regulations and trade barriers to US products).
So, to me this strike seems just weird. I have heard no reason for the strike, which is usually just the opposite on other strikes.
I think everyone realizes the financial danger we are in nationally and we can't pay attention to these guys.
7. Sort of related.
This is a headline ad running on my Yahoo home page this a.m.
'Bush signs housing rescue bill. $300,000 for only $1,727/mo. Fixed. No SSN required. LendingTree Quickmatch'
ANY wonder why we're in the shape we're in?
8. It's actually kind of funny. A lot of the IAM workers showed up for the vote in their RV's, motorcyles and SUV's all packed up to go on vacation. They figured it would be their every third year time off to go play. Boy were they ticked off when Gregoire called the union and asked for another 48 hours in negotiations as they had plane tickets and reservations at resorts and now they had to use sick time for the next 2 days in order to leave.
With the exception of new hires, these guys really have no clue what their worth is outside of Boeing. Leading up to the strike, there was a huge rift between new hires and the old guard. The new guys want the 401k the company is offering as they don't plan to make Boeing a career and the 401k is portable where a pension is not. The new hires are also more vulnerable to losing pay. The old guard averages $27/hr where the new hires average $13/hr.
Everything leading up to the vote was a lesson in intimidation. Shop stewards yelling at new hires to "get in line", daily marches through the factory where new hires were told if they didn't get out and march, their names were known.
Then came the day of the vote. Boeing provided buses for people to go to and from the union hall to vote. Shop stewards stopped the buses and ordered people off as they were to march there with their brotherhood. HR was very bust that day with employees complaining of intimidation.
Then get to the vote itself. Picture a secret ballot where you make yes or no. Then to cast your "secret ballot" vote, you have to walk up to the front of the union hall in front of the shop stewards and union officials. At the front of the hall is a table and on each end of the table is a barrel. One barrel is marked "yes" and the other barrel is marked "no". How many people do you think would be wanting to vote "no" after all the intimidation they had been through and being told they know who you are and then have to vote in front of all the officials?
So now they are at the mercy of the union officials who still haven't bothered to schedule talks. But it's OK... the union officials are still getting paid.
9. P, I've seen it with lifetime workers at Microsoft, too... People who've never worked for anything but an industry-dominating company. They think business is easy, and there's tons of money out there.
It's amazing how many of those MS folks left the comfort of One Microsoft Way and started their own company (hiring contractors like me), and then promptly augured their company into the ground, wondering why they can't get others to sit up and jump like they demanded when they were MS.
Most Boeing machinists (and interestingly, most Federal and State employees) simply have no concept of what 99.99% of all companies are like, and what the reality of business is. It's not the monopoly position they currently enjoy, and it's not the power and control over suppliers and vendors that you wield when you have BA or MSFT behind you.
10. hey if the world economy is going to grind a halt, this is going to work out well for Boeing!
11.
I see the strikers every day at the corner of West Valley and 204th Street on the Kent Space Center East site (I worked there for two years).
I'm 100% with the machinists.
There's no point in living in Puget Sound unless you have a high wage job.
The Liberals have driven up the housing prices to the point where no one but the entrenched Old Guard can live here.
Wages need to go up, or people move to better locations. I advocate the latter when possible.
12. Maybe you haven't noticed but the economy is "cratering".
I think that's pretty much dominating the news cycle right now (that and neither Boeing or the Machinists are actually negotiating). Looks like the strike is on the down low for now.
13. Not sure what you mean by "cratering" but I do notice the market has been making some huge gains in steps, and gold is way down again.
14. I think people and the media realizes that it is bad PR for the union to be striking when everyone else is hurting economically. It makes unions and union members look greedy and self-centered.
As a side rant, why do lawyers, who claim to be liberal, don't pay administrative workers a living wage? Why are unions not allowed on law firm ground? Liberals will vilify "corporations" for "obscene" or "windfall" profits, but law firms that make millions off clients, or take 33% of an award regardless of the amount of work are allowed a pass? An example is $688 million paid to plaintiff lawyers. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aakdO2wIq9xU&refer=worldwide
15. On the plus side, one of my fellow motorcycle commuters on the ferry commented that this may be a good time to pick up toys(quads, motorcycles, etc) as the union members sell theirs off to pay bills.
16. I've heard two things in the national news about it. First I read that Jack Welsh, former GE CEO is "proud of McNerny for taking on the unions", at Boeing. This while his protege' at GE is driving that company towards junk status.
Then on CNN's Mad Money, Cramer was talking about diversification of portfolios with callers and he told one guy to stay away from Boeing because of the strike. I don't know if he meant because the Boeing Co. is wrong or the Union was wrong, but just to avoid it. I haven't seen any big drops in Boeing stock as a result of the strike.
My guess is things will heat up as the temperature outside goes down and savings get used up.
17. Worthless slackers. he he.
18. #11 John Bailo:
Except that Boeing will relocate work to the states or countries. The machinists gain nothing long term from this. They should do job retraining to Wal Mart greeter or something!
19. I've always thought the day is coming when Boeing relocates all production to China. The initial transition will be awkward but slowly they get up to speed and perform as the global entity they are.
20. I had occassion to be down where the strikers were earlier this week. Didn't hear the horns tooting from passing cars the way I did when I saw them last strike.
More amusing, I love to read the "rants and raves" section on Craigslist and more than a few posters have been ripping the strikers pretty good.
A sample joke I saw:
Q: What's the difference between a hooker and a Boeing worker?
Well, they both stand on street corners looking for more money....Giving both more money will only mean you're getting screwed harder.... Hmmm, maybe there is no difference.
21. Lets get REAL!.....The Strike is based on a Deal between Boeing and the Union to have this respite, this time out for the Suppliers to catch up to the needs of Boeing. Also, Boeing needs this Strike to relieve them from the sales contracts with delivery schedules that cannot be met, even without a Strike, along with the attached penalties if they are not met. When the Suppliers catch up and Boeing has a good excuse to be late with their deliveries and are excused from the penalties, along with reduced demands from the Union dealing with compensation, the Strike will END!
22. Daniel, that's just completely false. It's been proven wrong.
23. Hey....scott....Your full of CRAP! In No Way has it been proved Wrong! Explain what procedures have been initiated to disprove what has been said. You can't because, your Lying! Companies going into collusion with Unions is nothing new. Case in point: The use to be a Plywood Mill in the Everett area that use to go on Strike every Winter. It was a well known fact the Union and the owners would have this game-play every year for about two to three months because of log shortages, less building in Winter and therefore, less demand for product plus, the need for annual maintenance of the machinery. Apparently, the cost of a Strike was easier for the Company to handle rather than the more clumsy and costly effort of a layoff. For you to make the Big statement that what I posted was completely false is LIE! You must be a Liberal to make such a False statement.
24. Earling: It's quiet because you only get your news from the John Birch Society. Why not join the rest of America?
P: Would you compare the value of an aerospace mechanic to a teacher and then say we are overpaid? They have a 33% failure rate. Or a criminal defense attorney (some estimates say more than 10% of convicts are innocent-)? How often do airplanes come down from mechanical malfunction? If anything, we're drastically underpaid.
Ken: You are a LIAR! That is NOT how the election went. I am a 30 year member of the IAM. I voted. You obviously DID NOT! You are a P.O.S. not worthy of living the lifestyle Union struggles have guaranteed!
Yeah, that 401(k) is working sooooooo well. Tell me: Should Americans invest their 401(k) in, take your pick, Bear Sterns, Goldmann Sachs, WaMu, Lehmann Brothers, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc ???????
Now, there can be little doubt that BA management needs some serious time to regroup after pulling the MANUFACTURING BONER OF THE CENTURY by offloading the design and assembly of the MOST COMPLEX and COMPLICATED piece of machinery in everyday use in the world. Neither the Japs, Chinese, Italians, Ozzies, any of 'em have the skill, the expertise, the PROVEN TRACK RECORD of SUCCESS.
Ooooooooooh yeah, I absolutely want to fly on an airplane made in Red China. NOT!!!
Whoever thinks the RED CHINESE, with their glorious history of pet food, baby milk, poisons, death, mutilations and just plain "life is cheap" motto should be in the airplane business, hell, you just go live there! You'd love it. The water tastes like urine for a reason! The food tastes like sh!t for a reason! And their airplanes would be deathtraps.
All the more reason that BA management, as wise as they have shown themselves NOT to be, will send more work there.
As time goes by, airplane disasters will increase from BA management's UnAmerican business philosophy. Now, who wants to celebrate that?
25. Scott @ 16:
BA stock was 15% higher MORE THAN 3 YEARS AGO when McNerney took over from the sex offender Stonecipher. Let's see, factor in inflation and that's like a 25% drop in value.
All for $100 million. Hell, Franklin Raines has got nothing on Jim McNerney. Martin Sullivan @ AIG and James Cayne @ Bear Sterns can't touch him.
Those guys made chump change to ruin their companies. McNerney's making out like the bandit that he is!
Remember: His knowledge is duct tape (3M). Duct tape and airplanes don't mix. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
26. I think the picture on the front page of today's P-I showing a couple of striking machinists says it all.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/380466_boeingstrike25.html
27. cmiklich - stop with your scare-mongering. The Chinese are perfectly capable of building anything we build, probably 100x better!
28. Unions artificially inflate the cost of inputs (in this case labor), and make manufactures less competitive on the global market. Not satisfied with that, the Unions decide to further erode Boeings market position by striking, thus cutting profits -the same profits that pay union worker's wages.
If these workers were truly convinced of their market value they would not need collective bargaining in order to receive a fair compensation and could rely on performance.
www.LessEmotion.com
29. Unions artificially inflate the cost of inputs (in this case labor), and make manufactures less competitive on the global market. Not satisfied with that, the Unions decide to further erode Boeings market position by striking thus cutting profits -the same profits that pay union worker's wages.
If these workers were truly convinced of their market value they would not need collective bargaining in order to receive a fair compensation and could rely on performance.
30. Earth to Keith: The "markets" are broken!
There NEVER has been JUST compensation for the most valued skills. And the most overpaid are the least needed nor desired.
Should all of those CEOs that had a HUGE HAND in ruining the companies they ran be paid $BILLIONS just to leave? Where, oh where, is the "market" there?
BTW, when the BODs at these various companies act just like Unions, do you mean them, too? By restricting the talent pool to members of same, they restrict the pool of knowledge. Stonecipher was on the BOD. Condit, same. McNerney, same. Ooops.
31. It seems to me that the ongoing international economic turmoil strengthens Boeing's hand in several ways. First, they have cut payroll expenses just when working capital is problematic. Second, events undercut the IAM's argument of "BA will be rolling in money, so they can afford a generous contract." Third, some Boeing sales contracts have force majeur clauses that include strikes, thus sidestepping financial penalties for delivery delays. Fourth, under such uncertain international economic conditions, Boeing's customers aren't unhappy with delivery delays anyway. Fifth, a number of Boeing subcontractors were behind on deliveries (and not just for exotic composite components, but even for such basic items as fasteners) and this lets them catch up.
I speculate that the IAM's strike timing will be collateral damage from the global economic storm. How much of the IAM's misfortune was bad judgment and how much was bad luck?
I further speculate that this strike won't be settled -- whether sooner or later -- as a tactical IAM victory.
32. cmiklich, I wasn't intending to compare Boeing machinists to workers in other professions which is an exercise in futility. All I'm saying is their skills may not directly translate to other industries and therefore may not be as valuable as they might think in the open market. And once again, I'm just basing this on the workers that I know personally; knowing that they were unskilled prior to being hired by Boeing and were trained by Boeing to to a particular job that is useful to Boeing. But maybe not so much to other employers.
33. I forgot to mention, I never actually said I thought they were overpaid, so please don't try to read my mind. You're not any good at it.
34. Daniel, you are an idiot. Come back when you grow up and we'll discuss it like adults.
35. For the adults on this blog, here's a pretty good breakdown of what the strike is costing Boeing. Pretty easy to see that Boeing would not want a strike and certainly wouldn't collude with the IAM to cause one.
http://www.smartmoney.com/breaking-news/on/index.cfm?story=ON-20080919-000592-1104
36. What a Simpleton you are scott. There is nothing to discuss. As you can see, TFO at post # 31 agrees with me as well. Bottom line....Your a Lying Blowhard Liberal who's credibility is ZERO! Nuff Said.
37. Daniel, I am more conservative than YOU EVER WILL BE. I have also forgotten more about Boeing than YOU WILL EVER KNOW. You should shut your face, as Clint Eastwood would say, until you have something cogent to say.
38. By the way, you one or two people who have me fingered as supporting Boeing in this need to read my posts again. I have not supported either Boeing or the IAM. I was stating facts. YOU are the one's reading things into my comments that I didn't say.
If you want to talk about why Boeing's stock fell in the last year mostly, it pretty obvious isn't it? Late on the 787. That's not good. Big DUH! there. Why are they late? Because of poor performance of suppliers, because of a world wide shortage of fasteners, because it's a new technology, and lots of other reasons.
Nobody is blaming the IAM for it, that's a fact. I know a lot of IAM people, they're good people. They know their stuff. Same with SPEEA. None better in the world.
But I'd like to invite Daniel or anyone else to go out to any Boeing picket line and run your little theory about the Union bosses being in collusion with Boeing brass to screw them out of a couple months pay. Get back to me andlet me know how that goes!
39. YOU just don't Get it.....scott! Your thinking is on a simplistic 2D level rather than a 3D level. First of all, your statement that your more Conservative than, I'll ever be is patently Ridiculous as it is Childish. You have no way of knowing my Full positions and principles. However, by your postings, you show yourself not to have the depth and understandings of a Conservative. You ramble on common ground of common consensus and understandings and think that you postulate something of unusual awareness. The Bottom Line is......Boeing needs and is using this Strike to it's advantage to provide the respite, the timeout, to get it's house in order. The Strike is a convenience to Boeing to accomplish this task along with the benefits aka dismissed penalties and solving the supply delays. Is this too difficult for you to understand? And....Yes, both Boeing and the Union are aware of the positives working to Boeing's favor. Naturally, they don't tout this mutual understanding to the Union membership. They both know what Boeing is willing to afford and when the time is right and when all the ducks are in place, Boeing will make an offer that the Union and Boeing have already agreed to. The Union will tell the membership that this is an acceptable offer and the membership will accept it and the Strike will be over.
40. Daniel, if you had presented even ONE SHRED of evidence to support your position, an article or leaked company or union document, you may have a BASIS for your arguement. But so far all I've heard is "you're full of CRAP", and some wood products company once did it. Not a real convincing arguement there Dan.
I on the other hand, I put up a site which outlines an expert estimate of the costs Boeing is absorbing for this strike. WAY more than penalties for late planes, it's already over a Billion. By the way, no airlines are giving up their spot on the firing order for the 787.
Now, I'll add another piece of evidence. I was in a meeting with Cynthia Cole and Ray Goforth, the top two leaders of SPEEA last Thursday. This very question came up; "is it in Boeing's favor to have a strike so they can catch up". The EMPHATIC answer from both of them was "absolutely not". They said the "costs of a strike are far worse than late penalties". So, do we believe YOU based on NOTHING, or them based on their leadership with SPEEA and their knowledge of the company's position? Anyone else who wants to google the question; "what is the strike costing Boeing", can easily disprove your theory.
I don't really see why you are choosing to show yourself such a fool as to keep on defending this line of thinking. Apparently you just can't stand losing an argument.
41. Scott......Lets use some Logic! Lets deal in depth of thinking which Liberals have great difficulty in doing. Most of those COSTS are there whether, the Strike occurred or not. However, the COST would be far greater if Boeing did not go on Strike. Boeing is behind schedule for a number of reasons but, the greatest reason is because of the delay in getting all the pieces and systems together to proceed with the assembly of the 787 and other projects in an orderly fashion and on time. Again, the need to have relief from Boeing's commitments, financial concerns, reputation and the excuse that buyers would have the option of canceling any order without penalty because of extended late delivery plus, the penalty Boeing would pay for late delivery. The Strike prevents these added COSTS. These cost would be high and would be added to the COST already occurring with or without the Strike. Of course, the leaders of the IAM or SPEEA are not going to admit the game-play between Boeing and the Union. Those two individuals you talked to, if what you say is true and I strongly question it, are probably lower functionaries and may not know the Truth of the game-play. The Union has to protect it's reputation at all cost and therefore, such collusion would be flatly denied. Bottom line is this......Both Union and Boeing know that Boeing must remain healthy in order to compete, provide jobs and be able to provide quality wages. The Union knows that without Boeing, the Union would have great difficulty surviving along with the tremendous lost of Capital aka members dues, to the point the Union would collapse. So, the Union is willing to work together with Boeing so they can both survive. Make Sense?
42. There is an obvious omission to the above post. That omission would be this......It would be very COSTLY to Boeing to have thousands of Workers with their hands in their pockets doing basically nothing to produce product while waiting for things to come on line.
43. So Daniel, at which college did you take Logic 101?
BA is NOT delivering any 737s, 747s, 767s, 777s, F-22 Components, Sea Launch components, etc, etc, etc during the strike.
They are losing $Billions. That's $Billions. With a "B". Much of that money is going to be extremely difficult to recover once the strike is over. Some can just be postponed, but much of it can not.
Trying to explain logic to you, or someone like you (management @ BA) is an exercise in futility.
But for the rest of the folks, let's just say that somehow, miraculously, against all odds the airplanes actually do get designed and built. Simply an act of God. No other explanation.
Especially given that fellas who just fell off a turnip truck are all that work @ BA (excluding management, of course).
Now, during the strike, no doubt BA management is trying to recover their head from their rectal orifice regarding the DEBACLE that is the 787. But, just as soon as they see perineum, they're gonna stuff it right back in there.
Because the management that is running BA today has as much knowledge about aerospace manufacture as Barry Hussein has about military service.
44. cmiklich......You first class Liberal IDIOT! Boeing hasn't lost any Sales! Perhaps, some deliverys will be delayed but, the Sales and the money is Still THERE! So the Billions and Billions have not been LOST whatsoever! What a Dufus Moron Liberal you are!
45. The 787 is very near first flight. It can't put itself to gether. It needs workers. The main thing Boeing needs to do is get that thing in the air and start the certification process. So while it sits there in a hangar, Boeing is burning through about $100 million a day. It is also paying every other employee not in the IAM. Most are doing something useful, but is still not the same thing as when everyone is working.
Let's talk about stock value. The reason Boeing's stock is down is because of the 787. It will probably be of great interest to investors to see a 787 flying, going through testing, and getting nearer to delivery. There are also more airplanes that need to be put together. The parts are here. What good is it to have them sitting around not being put together? NONE!
Ok, I'm done with this subject. I guess facts and common sense and simple math don't matter to Mr. Type "A" who has made up his mind not to listen or understand, but is here just to throw flames.
46. Boeing is proceeding forward with various structural tests on the 787 even with the Strike. The completion of these tests and others are necessary before the first flight of the 787. It is not necessary to have the IAM on hand to complete these test. The Parts are NOT all here as you stated which makes you , once again, Full of CRAP! Boeing along with the Union is in control of the events and when, the time is right and the delay on the supply chain is no more the Strike will END!