Check out this ad from the Washington Democrats. It tries to draw a link between Rossi and organized crime by playing the theme from The Sopranos.
If you don't get it, ask yourself: if Ron Sims were running for office and an ad ran against him playing the Geto Boys' "Damn it Feels Good to Be a Gangsta," would that be acceptable? Of course not. It's racism.
This is beyond mere racial insensitivity: it is trying to play off stereotypes of a racial group to create a negative image of someone in that group. That is racism. And it is astonishing to see it coming from the Democratic Party.
After writing this up, I was told that the Italian Club of Seattle has issued its views on the subject, and unsurprisingly, they agree: "Whether the State Democratic Party thought it clever to link Rossi to Italian-American criminals through the use of a popular mobster TV show is irrelevant; it is distasteful, and it is racist."
Cross-posted on <pudge/*>.
Posted by pudge at June 25, 2008 03:43 PM | Email ThisI can’t see any racism in that ad.
They call BIAW's ad rock bottom, and I am not sure what's below the rock bottom because this one is below everything.
Posted by: DopioLover on June 25, 2008 03:53 PMWould you see the hypothetical Ron Sims ad I mentioned as racist? I would. If you would, too, then the only way this couldn't be racist is if you think bigotry against Italians is more acceptable than bigotry against blacks.
Forget Ron Sims and the new high sensitivity that's been set by the Democrats with Obama at the head of the ticket -- the Sopranos soundtrack being used in any ad is reprehensible.
And, correct me if I'm wrong my friends, it's also illegal. Fair use doesn't cover stealing the entire soundtrack. The RIAA or HBO should be all over the Dems, and sue their pants off.
Posted by: SonicsFan33 on June 25, 2008 04:02 PMI keep thinking of Romney. Part of the aversion, I believe was his ready-cash and the thought of buying the nomination. For some reason, I see the same thing happening here. Most of the electorate is pretty independent, especially in this State. I don't see anyone buying this 'junk' except the nut jobs on the liberal side. Even sensible liberals can't believe a lot of this stuff.
Or do they? (Ed Note: I have nightmares they don't these days)
Posted by: swatter on June 25, 2008 04:25 PM
wine will not get Rossi elected. You'd think you'd have learned that last time.
Wow.
Posted by: pudge on June 25, 2008 04:40 PMSince when are the Italians their own race?
What generation is Dino anyway?
How dare compare this to Ron Sims and a Ghetto Boys song? Last I checked the Italians did not face hundreds of years of slavery, decades of Jim Crow, and lingering discrimination.
Posted by: BWL17 on June 25, 2008 05:38 PMAt least I can stop at one of Gregoire's casinos and do some tribal gambling and support her re-election by giving my money to the tribes.
Waiting on my table will be a waitress who graduated but couldn't pass the math WASL
It looks like it's going to be a long season of Christine Gregoire trying to change the subject away from her record as Governor.
Posted by: Andy on June 25, 2008 05:43 PMThe Dems will run Washington right into the ground, unapologetically. Good luck, everyone. You're gonna need it.
Posted by: Larry on June 25, 2008 06:04 PMFor example, when discussing Obama, it one says that Obama is inexperienced, that's racism. Whereas if one were to say that George Bush hates black people, as Kanye West did, well then it's just a little passion in his remark.
For the Progressives, the first commandment is always:
DO AS WE SAY, NOT AS WE DO.
Posted by: Jeff B. on June 25, 2008 06:15 PMBecause, let's be honest, when was the last time the building industry resorted to violence to get it's way? The same can't be said about the SEIU. And who traditionally has had ties to organized crime? The building industry or unions? Why, the unions. What also has had traditional ties to organized crime? Casinos. Who happens to be two of the biggest, far bigger than the BIAW, contributers to the Democrats? Why unions and the casino operating tribes.
So, for the Democrats to imply that the Rossi/BIAW link is somehow sleazy is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.
Posted by: Mike H on June 25, 2008 06:33 PMRacist? Since when are the Italians their own race?
Wow. Just wow.
Posted by: pudge on June 25, 2008 06:38 PMLogical fallacies won't win you any points here.
If you don't think it is racist, fine. I do. They are playing off of negative racial stereotypes to make people think poorly of someone of that race. That's racism to me.
In my lifetime I have seen a lot of racism against Italians (I grew up in Massachusetts, where there is STILL significant Irish-Italian racial tension today), and if I remember correctly, Dino has said his dad had some trouble because of his name. This isn't something that doesn't exist today, there are still negative stereotypes, and the Democrats used those nasty stereotypes to attempt to harm Rossi.
But regardless of what we call it, it's pretty bad.
Do you even know the nasty meanings of those slurs? Are slurs only one way streets in your world view: only allowed against anyone who isn't an enlightened liberal?
Tell us the line you libs won't cross... but don't mention the other color of barry or his angry haridan wife.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on June 25, 2008 06:53 PMChristine Gregoire, Jun 18, 2008
Meaning Christine Gregoire hit ROCK BOTTOM!!!
Hillary define the new course and standard for white female politicians: Anything goes against any man of any color or ethnic origin because white women (according to Hillary) are victims of patriarchal sexism.
Posted by: bananaland on June 25, 2008 07:41 PMComplaining about what they're doing isn't going to get us anywhere, and being nice and taking the so-called high road ain't gonna cut it.
Figuratively, they need to be punched in the face. Multiple times. They're playing for keeps. It's long past time we did the same.
And if they don't like it, they can stick it.
Posted by: jimg on June 25, 2008 08:03 PMSorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. It's not like I am sitting here and just complaining. I am doing a lot of things, and one of those things IS punching people in the face figuratively, and some of those punches ARE exposing them when they do stuff like this.
It degrades Italians, therefore it is racism. Newsflash: Racism is not based solely on color. That stunt probably lost at least 133 votes for Queen Christine. Did the Daily Kos/Moveon.org advise her on that or was it ACORN ?
Posted by: KS on June 25, 2008 08:29 PMRemember Biden commenting how Obama may have a chance at prez because he was "clean"? Would he have said that about a white guy? No way.
Howard Dean was the one who said the only blacks at the R convention would be the ones cleaning the room. It wasn't true, but he had no problem with saying it. Let's not forget the Jessie Jackson "hymietown moment. It's there, alright. They just want to club everyone else for it.
Yep, racsim's there, alright, in Democrat world.
Posted by: Michele on June 25, 2008 09:14 PMFirst off, racism is a bi-partisan enterprise. Both sides of the aisle suffer from this affliction. So to say that the D's are somehow more guilty of it than the R's is just flat not so.
Bigotry of any stripe is not cool. And if that's what you are calling this ad, I will accept your concerns. But to call it racist is way overblown. Italians are not a racial category, I don't care where you grew up, nor are they a protected minority. They are white Europeans just like most of the rest of the ruling cast. And they have certainly had their bite of the apple.
Please, crying wolf over this type of thing does nothing to move your cause forward.
I think the libs were pretty supportive of Nancy D'Alesandro, (AKA the Speaker of the House Pelosi).
What's the big deal about Italian Americans?
It's one thing to use the race card to deflect attention from Rossi's cozy dealings with the BIAW, but it is another thing to get race and ethnicity confused in doing so.
Posted by: Daniel K on June 25, 2008 10:26 PMWho hasn't filled out a form that asked you to check the box for "race" and lists the following choices:
Caucasian
African American
Asian
American Indian
Italian
Posted by: BA on June 25, 2008 11:03 PMFirst you resort to both the tu quoque logical fallacy (GOP is racist too!), and the straw man fallacy (something about me implying the Democrats are worse than the Republicans, which I never did).
Then you throw in a pair of red herring fallacies (whether they are a "protected minority" or have "had their bite of the apple" have no bearing on the point whatsoever).
You added nothing to the discussion: just fallacies.
Moving back to the assertion that Italians are not a race, and that therefore it isn't racist. It's nonsensical on its face. A race is nothing more or less than a way of separating out, by biological characteristics, a group of people. Even if Italians are not considered a race by most people most of the time, as soon as you separate them out by trying to link them specifically to organized crime, they become a race. That is how race works.
And you really show your ignorance when you say "they are white Europeans like most of the rest of the ruling cast [sic]." Italians were widely discriminated against in just the last century, similarly to blacks. Irish were in a similar situation, which is why they often hate each other to this day: they were fighting it out for the bottom of the class heap.
Racism is what CAUSED a lot of the Italian mafia to be able to take hold in the United States: because they were so discriminated against, they had to make their own way. If the Italians were treated like "white Europeans like the rest" the Italian mafia wouldn't have existed.
You can deny the racism all you want, but it's there, and it's palpable, and the Democrats were pushing it and encouraging it.
White
Black or African American
American Indian and Alaska Native
Asian
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander
Some other race
Two or more races
Italian
I've got to agree that he's right on this one folks.
Posted by: BA on June 25, 2008 11:11 PMHey loser. You got fired from Virginia Mason. Still doing pot?
Posted by: RightWinger on June 25, 2008 11:18 PMWhy the hell is it controversial to consider Italian a race, for the purposes of this discussion? This is ridiculous. As some have already pointed out, Italians faced considerable discrimination in the past; it's only recently that they've been "lumped" into some more nondescript category of "white European". It was considered a milestone when Scalia was appointed, since he was the first "white ethnic" Supreme Court justice. It was also a big deal when Mario Cuomo floated a presidential run, for the same reason. Ditto with Rudy Giuliani.
Applying some rigid anthropological definition of race here is beside the point. It may be the only time this election cycle, but I (mostly)agree with Pudge.
Posted by: Zeeb on June 26, 2008 01:46 AMSimply because "Italian" is not a race.
Just because a group of people can be discriminated against doesn't make them a race. Women are not a race, fat people are not a race, gays are not a race, etc... yet they face discrimination all the time in various forms.
I've never watched The Sopranos, so the musical connection was not there for me on this ad, but if it offended Italian-Americans because of some insinuation then fair enough, but that would not have been due to a racial stereotype, but an ethnic or nationalistic one. Pudge and others are being too loose with the use of the terms race and racism, and that's important because misusing and throwing around fake claims of racism is a serious matter in itself.
Posted by: Daniel K on June 26, 2008 08:00 AMAs Pudge points out in his definition for race:
"A race is nothing more or less than a way of separating out, by biological characteristics, a group of people."
I myself don't know what defining biological characteristics separate Italians from all other white folks, but I trust that Pudge does.
Posted by: BA on June 26, 2008 08:05 AMIf Rossi had a German last name and they ran an add with theme from Schindler's List, would that be racism? Because one is from another country does not make them another race.
Second, people, mainly libs, throw the "racism" word around like it's some sort of generic term. We all understand why. "Racism" carries a very negative connotation.
Okay students, time for English class:
Racism: "beliefs and practices that assume inherent and significant differences exist between the genetics of various groups of human beings; that assume these differences can be measured on a scale of "superior" to "inferior"; and that result in the social, political and economic advantage of one group in relation to others."
So, this would suggest that some of you believe Italians are genetically to be mobsters. Is that what you think? Ergo, this "ad" is not racist.
Bigotry: intolerance of any differing race, creed, belief, or opinion.
Prejudice: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
So, if we had to apply a definition to this "ad" it would likely be "prejudice".
I would also submit that 90 percent of the time when libs use the word "racism", they likely mean prejudice.
For example, if one refuses to vote for Barry because he is mulatto...er....I mean "black", that would mean you are prejudiced, not racist. Unless, of course you believe mulattos are genetically predisposed to not carry out the office of President.
Posted by: Dave on June 26, 2008 08:34 AMYawn.
The Italians may be their own culture, heritage or nationality, but their own race? You can go stick your "wow, just wow" you know where.
Posted by: BWL17 on June 26, 2008 10:35 AMDoes anyone know Dwight Pelz's ethnic origins, perhaps we can find something derogatory to associate with his ancestors, not of course in a disparaging way, simply to point out the truth inherent in stereotyping.
Posted by: dan on June 26, 2008 10:46 AMSeriously, read a book or something.
If that's the case, make sure you tell Merriam and Webster.
Great, powerful and true ad. If you don't like what you see, change Mr. Rossi's alliances.
Get over yourselves. Unbelivable.
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 12:44 PMIt is unclear whether you actually believe what you are saying. Assuming you do, self-examination is in order.
If there were an ad like I described about Ron Sims, and he said it was racist, would a reasonable response to say "it is only racism if blacks think they are the only people who are gangstas?" Of course not.
No one is buying what you're selling.
If not the word sleazy, what is there about the ad that correlates to gangsters?
Umm, pudge sounds like a name you would use to describe a fat person. Are you fat? Shall I make that assumption?
Is this what constitutes issues discourse on SP?
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 12:53 PMUm. I actually did address your comment, as anyone -- apart from you, obviously -- can plainly see. You said it wasn't racist unless Italians themselves think the stereotype is not only true, but exclusive to themselves. I tried to point out that if you made this same argument about a black man, that it wouldn't make sense.
If you did not understand it, there's not much I can do. Perhaps if I were a better communicator I would be able to say it in a way you can understand. I plead insufficiency.
That said, there is no doubt that what you said was illogical: the issue is not what Italians think of themselves, but what the common stereotype of Italians is, and whether this ad was intended to leverage that stereotype into creating a negative reaction to Rossi. We cannot know for certain what their intent was, but the appearance is obvious.
What constitutes discourse on Sound Politics is logic, and your argument -- racism only exists when the targeted racial group thinks the stereotype is true -- was clearly illogical.
The point I read is that Rossi and the BIAW are in bed together. You disagree? Don't you care about political influence?
I've simplified these questions so that I might actually receive a clear answer. Your tendency to analogize is murky at best and ignorant at worst.
Seems we might have a case of hypocrisy here? Nah.
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 01:21 PMWhat do you see in the picture of Rossi that correlates to the one you decribe of Gregoire? The ad you describe can be run exactly the same way the Dems ran the Rossi ad right now.
Instead of looking at what Pelz ran, you dress up your opposing ad in all sorts of costumes and stuff. How does that even compare?
Influence? Yes. Absolutely fair to put on microscope on influence and that's exactly what this ad does. And it is exactly what you guys will do.
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 01:32 PMWhat is there about the ad that correlates to either "gangsters" or "Italian?" Can you answer?
I frankly feel ashamed to answer such a question, because the answer is so completely obvious: THE MUSIC.
The point I read is that Rossi and the BIAW are in bed together. You disagree? Don't you care about political influence?
Shrug. Gregoire has gotten much more money from the tribes and the WEA and so on that Rossi has gotten from the BIAW. If you want to get rid of all special interest money, fine, but Gregoire will lose a LOT more from the deal than Rossi will.
BTW, does this mean that the Italian Club of Seattle thinks The Sopranos is racist and that they collectively tried to remove it from the air? and that none of them watch it? or enjoy it?
First, I couldn't care less if the Italian Club is hypocritical. I do not speak for them, nor they for me, and my post was written before I knew they had anything to say about it.
Second, no one said The Sopranos is racist. You're not quite getting it. The point is taking a stereotype of Italians, and applying it to an Italian. That is where it becomes racist. There is nothing racist about the Geto Boys, but applying their music to Ron Sims, to try to link him to the black gangsta steretype, would be racist.
Third, many Italians DO find The Sopranos to be an offensive perpetuation of stereotypes. I used to work in New Jersey, for several years, and a good Italian friend of mine worked with a local NJ Italian-American group to protest The Sopranos. I am not sure if they kept it up until the end; I do know that the show in the later seasons talked quite a bit about how the Sopranos family was not representative of Italian-Americans in general, perhaps as an attempt to defuse some of the anger.
The ad implies that they engage in nothing but illegal activities and Rossi is their mafia's Don
Corleone.
Might as well picture him with a feathered head dress.
Posted by: dan on June 26, 2008 01:40 PMI would not have thought of that. I don't watch The Sopranos, however.
Might as well picture him with a feathered head dress.
Ah, evidence of a silly argument getting sillier.
For me, it is purely a great ad that points out in a very powerful way the relationship between Rossi and the BIAW.
As for western WA being blue...perhaps. Seems to me we had a pretty close vote for gov the last time around. But, you want to default to that cry that there's more of us than there are of you, I'm not going to complain. Unfortunately, I haven't found any location with an equal numbers on the left and right yet. I do think it is a tired argument at this point.
Parts of King County very blue. The whole county? Surrounding counties? The whole state? Not according to the last statewide election.
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 01:52 PMI am offended by this ad, as offended as I was when your people, (the left) threw oreo cookies at Michael Steele. This ad points out the relationship between Rossi, the BIAW, and the mafia. You go ahead and put as much lipstick on it as you want, it's still a pig.
Posted by: dan on June 26, 2008 02:05 PMPudge, you're off topic. We are talking about the ad. It is about influence. And it works.
shrug... I agree. May the best ad win.
So, this is all about gangsters for you. Of course, doesn't matter if they are Italian or Black or...
Well, I guess you can't explain or predict the associations every person will make with popular culture. I can tell you that the whole purpose of marketing is to make a point.
The point made with me is one of influence.
Apparently, your point of reference is gansta music and The Sopanos.
I've always wondered how you guys on the right explain your politics.
Oh, to address your point about a lot of Italians finding The Sopranos unrepresentative of them, please tell me what in TVland is representative of most of us? Maybe your life is a sitcom but mine isn't. And any intelligent person knows that The Sopranos is not reflective of Italians in general.
I'm glad to hear you're protective of people's public images.
I've had a good laugh here and appreciate the talk. Signing off for now.
BTW, dan, there's no reasoning with unreasonable people who deteriorate to emotional attacks. Have a good day and I hope you feel better.
The ad works and that's why you're mad. You are a good Republican. I can tell.
Posted by: joanie on June 26, 2008 02:10 PMPosted by: Democrat on June 25, 2008 04:21 PM
Democrats? Embarassed? Where? When?
And Das Barone, the embarrassment is when people use other people's words and don't give credit. Even a first grader knows that.
Dave, my point exactly. No there there unless in your bigoted little minds. Prejudicial? No, obviously I don't think so. But then, he's not my guy. The ad says sleazy; I say smarmy.
You're source for your "original" quote, pudge, is Henkes and is first said by his character, Lilly, in Lilly's Purple Plastic Purse.
Incorrect, both in fact, and in punctuation. That book was published in 1996. I've been using that phrase since the 80s, and surely other people were using it before that.
Oops on you!
I have no dog in this hunt, either. It just annoys me whenever there is anything that is remotely related to someone's race, people scream "racism", when clearly they are ignorant of the definition.
Without the music I would agree with smarmy. However, even though not overtly stated, ithe ad does ask the view to make the connect. At least those viewers familiar with what the song is associated.
Posted by: Dave on June 27, 2008 05:00 PM