April 30, 2008
Memo: Your Plan Isn't Working

The idealistic fools at the Sierra Club recently took their "no new roads ever!" pitch to the pages of the Tacoma News Tribune op-ed pages.

The short version of their argument is that Prop 1 failed last fall because voters hate roads and everyone should move into compact, urban neighborhoods because...well...it would just be really nice.

Cute fantasy. Not so good on the implementation.

Example: digest former State Transportation Secretary Doug MacDonald's analysis of the success or failure of regional planning that would give any hope to the "everybody to live in the type of neighborhood we tell you to" theory.

As MacDonald discusses, the Puget Sound area's population is growing, but it isn't concentrating as the no-road zealots would like.

If results to date were on target, 98,000 of the 307,000 new people already added to the region from 2000 to 2007 should have located in those five cities [Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma, Everett, and Bremerton].

Oops. The actual number (discounting annexations in Bellevue and Everett) was 41,000, including Bremerton, whose population actually shrank by 1,500. That's 13 percent of the actual population growth so far, not 32 percent as targeted in Vision 2040

[snip]

What about Vision 2040's 14 core cities -- Auburn, Bothell, and so on? According to Vision 2040, 21 percent of the new population should collect in those cities as a group. If that had happened with the overall 307,000 new people regionwide, 64,000 new people would have joined the populations of those 14 core cities.

Oops. The actual number was 38,500 (taking into account annexations in Federal Way, Kent, Redmond, and Puyallup, and ignoring Silverdale, for which a separate number is not available). That's just under 13 percent of the actual 307,000 regional population gain in the seven-year period -- nowhere near the 21 percent envisioned in Vision 2040.

Where are the actual destinations for much of the local population growth?

Those are outlying cities, generally, whose populations push against rural and natural resource areas, which stretch out our everyday transportation requirements, and which represent the press of growth in the four county region against its edges. As all observers can witness with their own eyes, this is the surge of new development to the north, south, east and west beyond the boundaries of the four-county area.

Thus, even if the Sierra Club and related fanatics got to work implementing every zoning restriction and "sustainable housing" policy they would like, starting tomorrow, the reality stands that buses, trains, and pedestrian friendly communities are not the only answers to the region's gross transportation problems.

I say this as a voter who generally supports transit, loves compact urban neighborhoods, and will no doubt end up living in one after the kids fly the coup (even now I live in a budding "urban village" in the middle of suburbia, just a few minutes walk from a bustling park & ride). Yet, just because I like the choice doesn't mean great swaths of other people will ever choose the lifestyle the Sierra Clubbers are insisting upon.

Thus, by insisting on such solutions the Sierra Club is in fact insisting on not being taken seriously. Their understanding of life seems to stop outside the boundaries of Seattle proper. It wouldn't be a bad thing if their political influence did likewise.

UPDATE: MacDonald's name fixed.

Posted by Eric Earling at April 30, 2008 08:26 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Hi all,

Thanks for the post Eric.

My interest is in uniting conservatives and the Sierra Club and their fellow travelers in the same shot-gun marriage that successfully killed Prop. 1.

Nothing I'm suggesting would require SPers to refrain from such epithets as "idealistic fools," at all.

Every transportation bureaucracy in the country (I'm leaving the boss of our state DoT, Paula Hammond, out of any and all criticisms or disparaging statements, everything I've seen from her is good) is singing the same song, which is "We need a better, different revenue source or sources than the gas tax."

This should concern conservatives greatly.

Tolls and congestion pricing both have severe collection inefficiencies--they involve an intricate new money-raising system and for all practical purposes, a whole new expensive bureaucracy just to collect the money.

They can never be fair. There is always a passenger going from A to B that will be tolled while a driver going from B to C won't be, and it won't really make sense why.

Then there is the constant danger of the raid on the general fund to pay for roads, ala Rossi. When roads are paid by non-user fees, the price signal is muffled and distorted, essentially subsidizing congestion, pollution and sprawl by socializing the cost of roads.

I march under this flag: If the public doesn't want the gas tax raised, then the public doesn't want more roads.

Thanks all, New Left Conservative #1

Posted by: New Left Conservative #1 on April 30, 2008 09:04 PM
2. The assumptions for this Regional Plan is a failure. So can we assume that the plans for light rail fall into the same category. The expected population growth does not exist in the expected areas. So the desire for Light Rail falls apart due to the Population density is not present. Would it not be better for BUs service to service more areas where the growth is actually taking place instead of spending billions on a light rail system that would not even reach the areas with the Greatest population growth.

Posted by: David Anfinrud on April 30, 2008 09:07 PM
3. I am surprised that the TNT would publish this absolute brain dead crackpotism. There is no such thing as 'global warming caused by CO2' so why is anyone reading this nonsense. As for raising the gas tax, apparently some folks were asleep when Dino Rossi said: "The gas tax no longer works to finance roads because as the price per gallon rises the less tax per capita is paid. Tying the 'sales tax' of cars, trucks and RV's to roads can make up the difference WITHOUT RAISING TAXES!"
As for the General fund, there WAS plenty of money in it before Governor Gargoyle decided to go on a wild spending spree leading some to believe the Governor needs THERAPY, and right away before she has anymore BRAIN STORMS.

Posted by: Bob Clark on April 30, 2008 09:20 PM
4. "Sierra Club is in fact insisting on not being taken seriously. Their understanding of life seems to stop outside the boundaries of Seattle proper. It wouldn't be a bad thing if their political influence did likewise."

That's why Snohomish County Commissioner Reardon needs to start paying more attention to how his constituents are getting hosed. Tomorrow Reardon will be chairing the Sound Transit Finance Committee. He'll be handed a new contract to sign, with the Seattle Tunnel Project, LLC on the other side getting the open-ended contract.

What, you never heard of Seattle Tunnel Project, LLC? It is new. That contract Reardon is going to approve is for a minimum of sixty million dollars, and there's nothing in place now to prevent future Snohomish County taxes from having to cover all of that.

That money would go to construction consultants, for a really short stretch of deep light rail tunneling. The smart growth Snohomish County residents want is not helped by these Sound Transit plans for King County, in any way. From Snohomish County's perspective, light rail is nothing but an insanely expensive Seattle vanity project from its downtown to the UW football stadium.

In my opinion, Reardon shouldn't approve that contract. There is too much that's open-ended for his county's people about that King County light rail extension project. His constituents could end up paying really dearly for nothing, and just a few Seattle property developers are the ones who'd benefit.

Posted by: Everett Dills on April 30, 2008 09:56 PM
5. These Sierra Club types are the Democrats' dream!

Posted by: Michele on April 30, 2008 10:12 PM
6. But most Seattlites vote for Sierra Club types... They deserve to be screwed!

Posted by: FreedomLover on May 1, 2008 12:48 AM
7. New Left Conservative #1:

When we cut spending to the teachers unions I'll be all for diverting that money to building roads. But I guess not, since the WTU is a sacred cow more important then building roads for everyone.

Posted by: FreedomLover on May 1, 2008 12:57 AM
8. BTW, I'm glad for the existence of this blog. I tried over at Horse's Ass, but all I got was a lot of name-calling from some guy named "Roger Rabbit". A real charmer that one.

Posted by: FreedomLover on May 1, 2008 01:02 AM
9. New Left Conservative,

The reason people do not want higher gas taxes is two fold.

First the price of gas is on the rise and probable will be for sometime.

Second the revenue from the gas tax is not spent wisely. Can you tell me any projects that have been fully funded by the 9.5 cent gas tax? Not to mention the fact that the gas tax is being skimmed into the general fund as it stands now by charging sales tax on the construction material paid for by the gas tax.

Posted by: TrueSoldier on May 1, 2008 04:38 AM
10. The Sierra Club, Audubon Society, etc., in Washington state were targeted for infiltration decades ago by members of the communist party. Yes, Virginia, there still are communists, they still meet in cells, and they still want to, inter alia, shutdown our infrastructure through sub rosa environmental guerrilla warfare, e.g., let's destroy our hydroelectric power and crop irrigation for some fish few of us eat, let's abandon nuclear power because it's "scary," let's stop logging because some owls might be forced to relocate, and certainly let's reduce the human population to please other species. "No new roads ever!" sound like insanity? It's not. It's war.

Posted by: The Pirate on May 1, 2008 07:16 AM
11. I'm not a detail person, so I may be wrong, but isn't or hasn't one of the problems been that gas tax moneys were not obligated to roads so it went into the general fund? Or was this another of the myriad taxes that went into the general fund and not into what it was intended?

Why are we still inisisting on rail? The first rail proposal was shot down, the second barely passed (only at the last minute was money promised to Snohomish County/Everett) and the last failed miserably. Buses are more mobile.

All these environmental groups. First there was the Sierra Club; then the WEC (Washington Environmental Council); then the Audubon; then the list goes on and on and now we are back to the Sierra Club. Same players, BTW, different names.

Posted by: swatter on May 1, 2008 07:27 AM
12. The Sierra Club forgot an important factor, the cost of homes. Another factor is people don't want to live crammed up against each other. You would think outdoor enthusiasts would understand this point.

Posted by: tc on May 1, 2008 07:34 AM
13. Just today we have an excellent example of the News Buffoon engaging in political campaigning read this article about vandalism at the golf course and notice how it morphed into just another a "vote for Ladenburg for State office" piece.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/349108.html

OK, you are still not convinced that the News Buffoon is nothing but a "house organist" who plays only the tunes that Tacoma/Pierce government calls (until another scandal erupts and then they "were not aware").

The Pierce County annex is located on S 35th Street and handicapped do not have access to the building from the bus stop accross the street. This is the building one visits to pay one's taxes, get a mariage lisence, secure a building permit (like for if you need to add a wheelchair ramp to your house), etc.

The County under John Ladenburg (who rec'd email corespondence from me diurring the time construction was happening) developed the parcel adjacent to the PC annex and City cevelopment regulations specify that "frontage improvements" be done concurrent with property development unless the developer (in this case the County under John Ladenburg) applies to the City (who I emailed durring the time this development was taking place) and requests and is granted a waiver of deferral. Deferral's or waivers are supposed to be granted only in exceptional circumstances (in other words they are to be the exception rather than the rule) and granted only when it has been shown that the waiver or deferral will not impact the public in a significant way.

By the way I have in my possession email corespondence to the News Buffoon suggesting that as the local paper of record (yea right, what they are is the defacto local Democrat campaign headquarters) they might want to consider looking into this.

So there you have it folks, DEMOCRAT Ladenburg and the DEMOCRAT Tacoma City Council actively denying people with handicaps that effect their mobility teh opportunity to access to essential govennment services by denying access to an identified population.

And that my friends is Tacom/Pierce County Government in a nut shell and the News Buffoon is part of the equation tha tperpetuates this.

Posted by: JDH on May 1, 2008 07:39 AM
14. Sierra club just wants to help the seattle D's set up the apple cart in the city and save money for the blue pages.
They have to pay rent like anyone else.Greg Smith's money sure is going a long way to help the fill in mantra.
Greg Smith=Sierra club,Futurewise.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on May 1, 2008 07:46 AM
15.
Many people here in Kent spend their time in "compact" sul de sacs in which their suburban homes nest.

And what about Southcenter mall? That is more of a "city" than many sleepy neighborhoods even close to Seattle's down town.

Try and free your mind -- you can see urbanity in many nooks and crannies of exurbia!

Posted by: John Bailo on May 1, 2008 08:28 AM
16. I wonder how many Sierra Club people live in small homes and drive eco cars.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 1, 2008 08:41 AM
17. I know a 'Sierra Club' person. Every time she comes over I purposly wear my 'Pave The Planet' T-Shirt...she (seethingly) tolerates me! :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 08:51 AM
18. And Duff, how big is her house and what type of car?

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 1, 2008 09:30 AM
19. Here's the Sierra Clubs plan for the world.

Little Boxes
by Malvina Reynolds

Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of tickytacky
Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes all the same
There's a green one and a pink one and a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses all went to the university
Where they were put in boxes and they came out all the same,
And there's doctors and there's lawyers, and business executives
And they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course and drink their martinis dry,
And they all have pretty children and the children go to school
And the children go to summer camp and then to the university
Where they are put in boxes and they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business and marry and raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

Posted by: scott on May 1, 2008 09:40 AM
20. #18 Ha...Well she does maintain: lives in a down-town condo and drives a Subaru (when not riding her bicycle)....yeah, one of those types. :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 09:43 AM
21. Funny thing about that song, it was a liberal railing against "the establishment". NOW the liberals are pushing us into this kind of world with all their land use laws and conservationist extremism. They've relagated human existence to living in boxes and high density communities where you are basically forbidden from living any lifestyle that is different from anyone else. Next phase will be that you'll need a "Pass" to leave the little community of boxes and visit the "country" where animals are of supreme importance and awful humans are not allowed to tread.

Posted by: scott on May 1, 2008 09:56 AM
22. Frankly, I'm not too impressed with the mileage on some of these "high" mileage cars. Back in the 70s, I drove a 30 mpg (actual) Datsun in peak hour traffic. No, I didn't dodge around horses and carriages.

Posted by: swatter on May 1, 2008 10:00 AM
23. Yes, the Sierra Club can be extreme... (Keep in mind, though, they're activists with a mission and donors, not politicians who have to represent.)

But no one is trying to dictate where people live and where they spend their money. So get over the Liberals trying to run your lives mantra.

Gas tax monies only go to roads. Period. It's in the state constitution, actually.

You want to move out to rural areas to build your cheap McMansions, etc. Fine with me. Just don't ask me to pay for it, then. Your CHOICE to move further outside the City comes with having to pay for your own extensions to roads, sewers, electrical lines, etc. You want to drive more on the roads, then pay more in gas tax or create a tax based on miles driven, or pay expensive tolls.

But stop telling transit supporters we're raising your taxes and stealing your money to fund transit, when we've been subsidizing your gas-guzzling culture for years by building and maintaining your roads and keeping your gas prices subsidized.

It's not a commie plot. And it's got nothing to do with whether or not global warming is caused by mankind or not. It's simple economics. Some of us transit advocates are simply asking drivers to pick up a more equitable percentage of the real costs to society of our auto-focused culture.

Posted by: Mickymse on May 1, 2008 10:05 AM
24. You know Mickey...with all due respect it's the 'we-v-they' attitudes that (at least to some extent) tend to stymie real progress in this State.

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 10:12 AM
25. "Mickymse" begins commenting by saying,"So get over the Liberals trying to run your lives mantra "

Later we read this, "we've been subsidizing your gas-guzzling culture for years"

If you liberals want to pretend you're open minded and reasonable you've either got to become better actors, or better writers.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 10:24 AM
26. "11. I'm not a detail person, so I may be wrong, but isn't or hasn't one of the problems been that gas tax moneys were not obligated to roads so it went into the general fund? "

Per RCW, State gas tax used in road vehicles must be used for road purposes. The State fudges on this all the time and every decade or so the Supreme Court has to spank them. Gas tax paid for use in farm vehicles and boats gets refunded. Gas tax paid for use in offroad vehicles is for the most part stolen by the state and directed to non-motorized recreation funding thanks to the Sierra Club's legal and lobbying efforts.

Posted by: Tod on May 1, 2008 10:35 AM
27. 25 says; Yes, the Sierra Club can be extreme... (Keep in mind, though, they're activists with a mission and donors, not politicians who have to represent.)

But no one is trying to dictate where people live and where they spend their money. So get over the Liberals trying to run your lives mantra.

Oh REALLY? What do you call this then?

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/18389174.html

Little old lady just trying to live out her life in her home of 50 years. Along comes the county beaureaucrats to slap her with a $7000 tax bill. Even when taxpayers vote for an Initiative to stop this kind of state sanctioned theft, some liberal judge comes along and declares it "unconstitutional".

Liberals are responsible for this, but so are spineless Republicans for not at least putting up a fight. Liberal judges and liberal politicians are forcing people out of their homes and "mandating by tax assessment" that land has to be leveled out and condos built on any free space that isn't part of the "protected" county land which prohibits home owners from using their own land. There's not enough room for the ducks you know...

So this little old lady is going to have to sell or have her land confiscated by the county. Some developer will swoop in and buy it for the amount of taxes owed, and the county will have successfully stolen this lady's land. They can't even leave her alone long enough to die happy and THEN steal the land from her family.
This is our world. The Sierra Club would be proud.

Posted by: scott on May 1, 2008 10:39 AM
28. Miickymse is a good little Socialist. Good little Socialists know more than people who actually work and try to live their lives independently.

Good little Socialists take over the local governments, then tax the "rich" (anyone with a house) and divert thoses taxes "fairly" to the losers who make bad decisions in life and then resent those who make good decisions and aren't on the government dole in some way.

Mickymse, do you know that per capita, Puget Sounders are using less gasoline for transportation since 1966?

How are the workers out there in suburbia who can only afford a house in Bonney Lake or Arlington but can only find a job Downtown supposed to support your Socialist decisions? Remember, if the masses don't do the work, your good little Socialist agenda can't be fulfilled.

Posted by: zDawg on May 1, 2008 10:43 AM
29. Why do the lefties think the Sierra club and their ilk are "experts" on the environment and transportation, but the energy companies don't know squat about bringing us more energy and auto makers don't know what we really want in cars?

Posted by: PC on May 1, 2008 10:55 AM
30. I agree scott. I don't think liberals deliberately set out to throw elderly people out of their homes. I do think liberals are routinely slaves to their failed ideology, the consequences of which you well illustrated.

Liberals do massive amounts of damage when they take over places like Seattle, San Francisco, and Detroit. Or Russia. But I digress.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 10:58 AM
31. Mickymse says, "But stop telling transit supporters we're raising your taxes and stealing your money to fund transit, when we've been subsidizing your gas-guzzling culture for years by building and maintaining your roads and keeping your gas prices subsidized."

Baloney.

Three tenths of one percent of the sales tax rate goes directly to transit systems in any area that is part of a "Public Transportation Benefit Area." That's why you see mostly empty buses running way out to the sticks. Extending routes out there extends the PTBA and increases the revenue.

So, Mickymse, you might drop the conceit.

Posted by: David Onkels on May 1, 2008 11:04 AM
32. Swatter @22:
I agree. Back in 1984, first year out of college, I bought a Chevy Sprint, all three-cylinders and all. I remember taking the Olympic loop (101) and getting over 50 mpg. I regularly averaged in the mid to upper 40's.

I recently traded my Honda Odyssey in for a Civic Hybrid. While, I did double my mileage (20 mpg to 40mpg average now), and it is a lot nicer vehicle than the Sprint ever was, it still averages lower mpg. I can get close to fifty on commute drive from GH to Seattle, it is the city driving in GH with all the hills that kill the mpg. It is nice, however given where gas prices are today, to get 400-420 miles on a tank and only put in 10 gallons. The Odyssey, which was the best performing mini-van with its Variable Cylinder Management engine, would take 16-18 gallons to only go 325-350 mile range. On long trips, the Odyssey would get 23-24 mpg. Still also owning a four-cylinder Accord, which averages 30 mpg, the hybrids don't necessarily provide that much more performance.

Posted by: tc on May 1, 2008 11:06 AM
33. The biggest issue with "regional planning" like this is that they have not provided an integrated plan from the local city gov't to county to inter-county cooperation and state vision. First, many cities do not want to grow at the necessary and expected rate of "2040" where the density in these "small towns" will have to change their mentality. Bellevue should be getting denser faster than it currently is, and the best way to do this is to go vertical. Obviously the further up the building the more the developer can charge for the views, but you could also integrate low, middle and upper-income into one building so that you don't get only "rich" towns, but get the diversity that "we so desperately desire." I am not saying have uncontrolled and unmitigated growth, but if you limit the number of units that can be built within an area, you will artificially inflate prices, thereby creating a bubble effect. Gov't should not be involved in the artificial creation of value by "laws and ordinances". It should be purely a guiding force. How many limits does Seattle have on growth...developers see a need...let the market take care of itself...Supply the area with more homes than it demands and the the supply will slow, demand will grow with time and the cycle shall repeat. Nuff said.

Posted by: eric on May 1, 2008 11:07 AM
34. Our Ford Focus, tc, is American all the way (including profits) and gets a little over 30. It was obvious choice for the wife's transportation rig.

Mickey Mouse, the troll of the day, doesn't realize that the more I drive, the more gas tax I pay. If you are in the burbs (like I am) our traffic is not as heavy and we don't beat up our roads like you city folks. So, yes, we are indeed subsidizing you for the roads and the full buses disguised as empty seats on the buses.

Posted by: swatter on May 1, 2008 11:20 AM
35. eric says, "The biggest issue with "regional planning" like this is that they have not provided an integrated plan from the local city gov't to county to inter-county cooperation and state vision."

My god. Is it possible to read this statement more than twice and not get a headache? Perhaps eric isn't a government bureaucrat, but he certainly writes like one.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 11:23 AM
36. Don't forget you are not paying any more, in inflation adjusted dollars, than your parents were and their Vista Cruiser or Country Squire wasn't getting any more than a dozen mpg.

Actually compare the rise in what you pay for government, including the cost of groceries (that is a tax you pay when government decides to put food in the tank of your car) to motor vehicle fuel and gas is cheap by comparison.

By the way, I had a '92 Geo Metro from '91 to '95 and put 130,000 miles on it. A solid 52mpg on the hwy, 40+ around town. $6,229 out the door w/tax and license. I used to go to Montana for the weekend if I didn't have anything else to do. Filled up before leaving home and again in Missoula on my way east. We have Prius' at work and they are not all that much different than the metro. I would buy a low milage Metro if I came accross one, but we have a GTI.

Posted by: JDH on May 1, 2008 11:40 AM
37. I find it to be somewhat funny that our liberal 'friends' think that a 19th century technology called rail is such a great idea. And they call themselves (nobody else does) progressives.

The incompetence of the so called leaders in this part of the country is glaring in how they choose 'light rail'. If these fools (I'm trying to be kind) had any brains they would have brought us mag-lev trains, you know state of the art with some 21st century technology in it. They could use the eminent domain laws that our supreme court recently foisted on us to confiscate the land required to do this. These trains would run from Edmonds to Olympia using the I-5 Corridor with stops all along the way to pick up happy passengers who wouldn't have to drive to work. Also it would have intersecting train stations for trains running between Bremerton to Redmond. This one would go through Bonney Lake, Enumclaw, Maple Valley and Bellevue.
The existing bus services would all be rerouted to meet at the large parking areas at each of the terminals along the way. Tacoma would have a major terminal at the intersection at I-5 that would allow passengers to switch to the train going in the direction they wish to go. The trains would come every 15 minutes during hours between 4 AM and 8 PM. They would slow to every half hour until 11 PM then run every hour till 4 AM. A real leader with guts would stop all current transit boondoggles and rerout the funds to this plan. He would have the person who came to him and suggested a Blue Ribbon Commission to study this arrested.

Just think, they could create tons of jobs just building the damn thing and then they would have to have government employees to run and maintain the thing. Why, the jobs they could create, all beholden to the government they saw as their benefactor (democrats), would be huge.

But as I said they are incompetents. Any lib reading this ought to be enraged at their favorite politician for not championing something like this.

Posted by: REBEL on May 1, 2008 11:59 AM
38. Well then, I'm going to send the Lib's in a tizzy fit. I drive a 1994 Land Cruiser that get's 16mpg on the freeway. Plus it's lifted with a huge wench on the front.

Let the crying begin.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 1, 2008 12:03 PM
39. Let's knock off another silly meme about the "empty buses in the suburbs," shall we? You'll notice the buses are running at capacity in many of the suburban areas, where we need and want MORE buses (or light rail, or monorail, or anything faster). However, all new revenues for KC Metro now divert the majority of funds to outside of Seattle because suburbanites demanded their "fair share" of bus hours.

Now, I'm all for better distribution of bus lines and wider coverage, but this seems like a plot by pro-roads folks to set up the scenario y'all are decrying, don't you think?

I also might point out that many of those empty buses are empty at the ends of their routes into the suburbs, and are not that way during all times of their use.

Posted by: Mickymse on May 1, 2008 12:05 PM
40. #38 Doesn't she ever complain 'bout having to ride on the front like that? :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 12:08 PM
41. Doh! Too quick on the trigger. That should be "running at capacity in many of the URBAN areas..."

As for my "good little Socialist" choices... Yes, I have to hear people call me an elitist rich person for living in the City.

The fact, however, is my husband and I chose to live in a condo rather than a townhouse so we could afford to live closer in. We have only one car, lower insurance, less gas and repairs costs, etc. in order to support that choice. And we looked for places that were close to good bus routes so that I could get to work and other activities.

Those are the choices we made in order to live where we do. Sure, I would have loved a bigger house, but if it required us buying a second car and my time wasted commuting back and forth on the freeway, would we really have saved any money at all?

Posted by: Mickymse on May 1, 2008 12:12 PM
42. 13 - I heard about that tree vandalism at Chambers Bay, and it really made me angry. Who would do such a thing to a beautiful landmark? I hope he's caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent for that.

As for Ladenburg, I'll take your word for it on his politics, however he scores big points with me for getting that course built. I've played and enjoyed watching golf since I was a kid, and building that course and getting a US Open here was very welcome news to me. For a $21 million investment (that alot of people opposed), that course is going to bring well over $100 million in economic activity to that area in 2015. Not to mention the US Amateur a few years prior. My family and I will be attending both events. I can't wait.

Posted by: Palouse on May 1, 2008 12:20 PM
43. "I hope he's caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent for that."

..why you assume 'he', grasshopper..

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 12:25 PM
44. ..why you assume 'he', grasshopper..

Just don't believe there are ax wielding female vandals. Could be wrong on that, but I doubt it.

Posted by: Palouse on May 1, 2008 12:32 PM
45. And how many people with kids Mickymse find public transit convenient?

I recall a debate I once had with my very liberal sister during which she lectured me that we all "need" public transit. When I asked her how often she and her young daughter used public transit she flew into a fit. She, of course, had a far too busy lifestyle to utilize public transit. Which, unfortunately for liberals brings up the point that in the world they've created where every mom has to work public transit is only convenient for young single urban dwellers. Or perhaps liberals can explain how easy it is to take their kids to soccer practice on the bus.

It's always thus, whether it's Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, or Barack Obama. You little people need to do what we say...and don't ever pay attention to what we actually do.

Can it not be more obvious? Liberals are like untrained puppies, creating messes their adult owners eventually have to clean up.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 12:34 PM
46. But no one is trying to dictate where people live and where they spend their money.

Really? You might want to familiarize yourself with the Growth Management Act. For it, indeed, does dictate where people can live and at what cost.

Posted by: jimg on May 1, 2008 12:35 PM
47. #44 ...you must be careful grasshopper, lest you appear sexist.. Axe-wielding female PLUS

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 12:38 PM
48. I wrote ax wielding vandals, not ax wielding murderers, there *IS* a difference. ;)

Posted by: Palouse on May 1, 2008 12:40 PM
49. ..touche' grasshopper...you good sport :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 12:44 PM
50. LOL, I wondered if you would catch that Duffie...

Yeah she hates it.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mick.

Are you kidding the city I live end we have flex buses and they are never full.(not even half) I'm on the street all the time and see these huge waste of taxpayers money.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 1, 2008 01:00 PM
51. Aaah, the Mouse again. She found it convenient and was able to find a condo to where she can enjoy her lifestyle. The Mouse should rethink and thank the heavens that she had the option to move in close to transit and her other favored amenities. In a couple of years, it will be difficult to find those rarities if more and more people choose this route. Supply and demand. Right now, there is a lot of supply and no demand; increase the demand and what Ms. Mouse.

Sorry, also, Mouse, but where I sit, the buses are empty pretty much all day. Yes, you get them filled during rush hour but they still have to run on off-peak hours and contrary to your opinion, my eyeballs see through the disguise.

Posted by: swatter on May 1, 2008 01:00 PM
52. I recall a debate I once had with my very liberal sister during which she lectured me that we all "need" public transit. When I asked her how often she and her young daughter used public transit she flew into a fit. She, of course, had a far too busy lifestyle to utilize public transit. Which, unfortunately for liberals brings up the point that in the world they've created where every mom has to work public transit is only convenient for young single urban dwellers. Or perhaps liberals can explain how easy it is to take their kids to soccer practice on the bus.

It's always thus, whether it's Al Gore, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, or Barack Obama. You little people need to do what we say...and don't ever pay attention to what we actually do.

Can it not be more obvious? Liberals are like untrained puppies, creating messes their adult owners eventually have to clean up.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 12:34 PM

Just love it how libs fly into fits anytime someone challenges them. It's like automatic!

Posted by: FreedomLover on May 1, 2008 01:08 PM
53. I expect there will be a noticeable absence of liberal comments this afternoon. They likely will be attending their annual communist celebration demonstrations. It is the first of May. Oh how they must miss those annual parades of missles in front of the Kremlin.

You'd think leftists would take this day to reflect on their vast record of accomplishment. Could they even come up with one?

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 01:18 PM
54. Sierra Club and the like are the biggest opposition to us being energy and oil independent. It's time to tell Sierra Club and the Environmental lobby to STFU (with all due respect) about no more nuclear plants, oil refineries and drilling in ANWR. They are helping us finance Al Qaeda and Iran because of our dependence on foreign oil. The collective Sierra Club shows their collective stupidity and phoniness with their self- indulgent lobbyists who have hijacked too many politicians. It's high time that they get their heads out where the sun don't shine and live in the 21st century.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for energy conservation, cleaner environment and alternative fuels (not biofuels though - because they don't cost less and increase the cost of food). At this time, no presidential candidate has spoken out about this, which is a sad state of affairs.

Posted by: KS on May 1, 2008 01:19 PM
55. #53
"You'd think leftists would take this day to reflect on their vast record of accomplishment. Could they even come up with one?"

One 'small' one (right off the top) - they've distroyed or reduced to ineffectiveness the Republican Party in the State of Washington! :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 1, 2008 01:25 PM
56. The "Little Boxes" song again proves true for Mrs. Mouse, who appears to believe everyone else is or should be just like her and her husband (no kids?) and move to the city, have one car they never drive, and find jobs near enough to walk to. For you, Mrs Mouse, that works great. For me with 3 kids it would be totally unworkable. Maybe I'll do that when I retire, but certainly not now. Kids change everything. But the REAL point is people have free will and a right to "pursue happiness" however that legally manifests itself. When Progressives try to change what "legally" means, we have a problem. At least half of us don't want to live that way. When Progressives get control of courts and government and then force people via taxes, land management acts, and ordinances to live like THEY want us to live, that's going to tear the country apart...a result which is clearly underway as we speak.

Posted by: scott on May 1, 2008 01:26 PM
57. No, scott... I didn't say you had to do the same as me. But the opportunity cost of your choice to live outside the City means you will spend more money on gas and maintenance and spend less time with your family. If that is worth it to you to have the bigger house, then that's great; but if you did it because you thought the costs would be lower, then consider whether that added cost if included with your housing costs would be equal to living closer in, or not.

And using children as an excuse is setting up a false comparison. People all over the world, and here in New York, Chicago, or San Francisco, regularly raise children in the City. The trade-off of a huge room or backyard for smaller homes or apartments is being walkable to schools, stores, museums, etc. and utilizing parks and beaches and community centers for parties and recreation.

Once again, I'm fine with those who choose the suburban lifestyle for their families. I'm just saying that there are costs as well as benefits to doing that for your family -- both monetary and emotional/physical. We don't talk enough about that. And we seem to pretend that millions of people around the world don't raise perfectly normal, healthy children inside cities.

Posted by: Mickymse on May 1, 2008 03:21 PM
58. Scott @56 puts it so well.

Who are liberal "progressives" really? They are control freak nazis. Or to put it another way they love doing what commies always love to do. Boss everyone else around. Indeed, liberalism is a mental disease.

As Duffman, (who fell right into the trap I set), admits, leftists can't point to a single accomplishment except keeping Republicans out of office.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 03:51 PM
59. Just to put things in perspective, a 45 passenger diesel bus gets 2.5 miles per gallon.

A bus with five passengers isn't very fuel-efficient, is it?

Posted by: David Onkels on May 1, 2008 04:00 PM
60. Don't try making sense David. There are liberals reading these topics and you might offend them.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 04:08 PM
61. Mickymse,
Did you read MacDonald's article?
I found one comment to be interesting, by Dmorrill, who describes himself as a geographer demographer. Here are the last two paragraphs, but the whole article and the comments, especially this one, are all worthy of a glance:

"The metropolis does have a fairly high, and increasing share of singles, childless couples, empty nesters and educated professionals who are a good market for denser urban living, but they are NOT a majority, and do not have an ethical right to impose their preferences on everyone else. It is simply predictable, then, that the goals of vast population growth in Seattle and other core cities, or that the urban growth boundary will not need to be reevaluated before 2040, will not occur. Folks will rebel, many businesses will relocate, and a significant share of the assumed growth may be displaced to other counties and other states.

I would point out that those denser cities we want to emulate, like Boston or New York or San Francisco, in fact have vast and extensive suburban single family zones, and our more "perfect" neighbor rival[s], Portland and Vancouver BC, are in fact very much like us."

Posted by: David Onkels on May 1, 2008 04:57 PM
62. Is it possible to beat the bleating feature article in today's P-I?

Oh yes, UW researchers have discovered that many living in Seattle neighborhoods have no access to grocery stores within a 30-minute bus ride.

Fitting in nicely with the P-I's usual story line is a lengthy sad narrative featuring guess what? A single mom. Only in the twisted world of liberalism would the very people who encourage single parenthood blubber about its inevitable consequences.

The poor woman has to trundle 30-pounds of groceries home on the bus a couple times a week. If her two 18-year old daughters ever provide any help it's not mentioned.

The best part of the article however was when the P-I whined that living in such remote city locations, "makes it hard to combat climate change and create a more liveable city".

You don't have to make this stuff up.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 05:19 PM
63. #62 - The P-I demonstrated that they are in the tank for a fantasy world, and have zero facts to back up their premises. However, it probably felt good to write because it supported their cause in the name of creating a better nanny state, ruled by the liberal elites.

Worthy of being a fish guts wrapper, but not a fish wrapper !

Posted by: kS on May 1, 2008 05:40 PM
64. The Sierra Club was once dedicated to getting people into the mountains to appreciate the beauty of the alpine landscapes.

Somewhere back in the 60s they started their campaign to close down the mountains to public access. I've been fighting against them for years in order to keep the few mountain roads open. I lost. Note "Wild Sky" got through Congress.

Now that the Sierra Club has closed down the mountains the only way for their lawsuit happy business to continue is to start suing the cities and city dwellers.

The local Sierra Club's wizard of Oz, Charlie Raines is now telling land owners in his sights which trees they can cut down on their own property. If you disagree he'll make you get an EIS before you cut that tree or dig a hole.

His associates are telling us how we should get from point A to point B on our highways.

What next? I'm worried about the possilbe "landmark" sequoia in my backyard. It keeps tilting toward my house.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on May 1, 2008 05:44 PM
65. Bart, I say dump these Sierra Club loonies into the forest of any county in Washington with a couple days rations and see how long they last.

It cracks me up how liberals constantly act as if the last piece of untamed land is about to be gobbled up by "developers". Give me 90-minutes and I can drive any of these knotheads to places where if they ran out of gas they would end up as skeletons.

That narrative goes away when someone disappears in a plane, or on a hike. Suddenly as if by magic, we have people "lost in the wilderness".

I am so sick of these people.

Posted by: Bill Cruchon on May 1, 2008 06:04 PM
66. Remember two things about transportation in this region and you will never go wrong:

1. It's the fuel that's the problem, not the cars
2. Doug MacDonald is and always will be an idiot and an a**hole

The problem lies with the local government folks at County level and city of Seattle. They all think that forcing people out of their cars is the answer. Did you know the Seattle City Council actually has a policy to try to discourage people from driving into town to shop? And they wonder why Bellevue is getting all the good jobs and retail!

And why exaclty are cars bad anyway? Because of pollution? Great! We are going to have new fuels. Already Hybrids are reducing emissions by 50% or so. When we have 'plug-in hybrids' --- hybrids that use electricity first and gas second --- you're talking 100MPG or so. Everybody wins.

But I know that won't be good enough. Just wait...the leftists will start talking about why cars aren't the answer even when the fuel is clean. I can't wait to hear the twisted logic...but I bet the word obesity comes in...or runoff Just watch.

The group who put the plan, VISION 2040 out, is the Puget Sound Regional Council. They are not the problem. I work with a lot of them. They are about the best follks out there in local gov't. In fact, MacDonald's piece was a load of BS when he attacked their work. Because he compared current state to desired future. Of course it isn't going to be the same! That's why you adopt plans --- to try to change status quo!

Death. Taxes. Doug MacDonald's an idiot and an a**hole. The sooner the entire region realizes these things, the better off we'll all be.

Posted by: GovtMole on May 1, 2008 08:49 PM
67. Here in Tacoma, the buses are not that full for a city. Good point above that a bus with only a few passengers isn't solving any problems, just wasting tax dollars. And there's not a lot of difference between a buss with 1 or 2 passengers in Carnation vs. a bus with 5 to 10 passengers in Tacoma. Both are underutilized and example of the waste and inefficiency of government. We should privatize transit, and only offer subsidy of that cost to ride for truly deserving low income, disabled, etc. The government should never be in the business of providing a service. If the government must intervene, it should only offer a payment for the services of an otherwise competent and private business that is forced to compete or fail.

The best idea I've seen is van pools. Essentially small private buses run by the companies that fund them for their employees. Driven by an employee volunteer who gets free transportation as a benefit. Private, so they will be managed and not used on days when there is no justifiable ridership, unlike our empty buses.

The lefty fools believe in their Utopian Dense Urban vision and that the Earth needs saving, etc. They act on emotion and not reason. All those condos built with subsidy are going to have a nice bottoming out in a few years. Same in Portland. There are a lot fewer urban dwellers than the social planners would like to admit, but they'll cover that up and deny it when it comes to pass. Notice all of the radio ads for condo showings?

I've said many times before, the best way to guarantee the our mass transit dollars pay off, and to regulate future frivolous mass transit expenditures is to mandate that all bureaucrat employees must use mass transit to commute to and from work. If you are going to be a net drain on the economy, then you should not get any perks. Perks are for private citizens who generate the wealth that finances the government. Don't like to be a blight? Get a real job in the private sector.


Posted by: Jeff B. on May 2, 2008 12:03 AM
68. Jeff I totally agree, and not one of the Liberal Spiritual mass transit leaders, not the so called governor, not the mayor of Seattle, not the King County Executive, not a one of them, rides transit to and from work every day.

They are all Al Gore Co2 Belching phony's.

Do as I say, not as I do!

To hell with all of them, I'll drive my car too!

Posted by: GS on May 2, 2008 02:09 AM
69. 'As Duffman, (who fell right into the trap I set), admits, leftists can't point to a single accomplishment except keeping Republicans out of office.'

#58 What we have here ('Bill') is a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE! Haha....can we say 'spin control'; we could use you on the Clinton campaign. :)

Posted by: Duffman on May 2, 2008 05:13 AM
70. Morning everyone. Here's a tid-bet that should make your Friday morning.
Tell me the fools in Congress don't think they are special!

http://wcbstv.com/seenon/car.lease.us.2.713776.html

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2008 06:25 AM
71. Good stuff AM/V...no gas worries there, eh? :)

Did you catch Rev Wrights' mansion (that he's about to move into) and the two Rolls Royces that he has - on the news last night? - suppose his parishioners can come live with him?

Posted by: Duffman on May 2, 2008 06:49 AM
72. Sounds like the discussion focused on ideas. A couple of years ago I got hammered on SP for suggesting some of that transportation money should be spent on matching people up with people who have the same work schedules so they can carpool.

The difference between my idea and the status quo is that the transportation groups should be more proactive in getting people matched up.

Posted by: swatter on May 2, 2008 06:53 AM
73. Swatter...

They hate good ideas. So back to your corner. (-:


Duffie.... No I didn't see it and really don't care. If his people wish to give him that.. Be my guess, it's not coming out of my pocket. But I'll tell you, if my Church ever asked me to give my Rev something like that. I would leave a path of *^&^#$#@ words as I left that church forever.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 2, 2008 08:03 AM
74. Count me, and all of my many friends, as folks who voted against Prop 1 BECAUSE OF THE TRANSIT PORTION. If it was roads only I would have said YES in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Seabecker on May 2, 2008 10:23 AM
75. Cost isn't the reason people live in the burbs. It's crime, crowding, lifestyle, schools, community, hundreds of other things people find unpleasant about citeis.
But as long as we're talking about what suburbia is costing government, let's not forget to level the playing field with all those costs unique to a city. Such as the high rate of inner city crime, schools, bridges and streets, bus stations, etc. And what about all that cash flow FROM the suburbs TO the city for things like stadiums, county buildings, transit... I don't claim to know what all the costs are for either cities or suburbs, but I don't think cities are somehow crutching the suburbian lifestyle at all. I'd bet it's the other way around.

Posted by: scott on May 2, 2008 01:02 PM
76. Cost isn't the reason people live in the burbs. It's crime, crowding, lifestyle, schools, community, hundreds of other things people find unpleasant about citeis.
But as long as we're talking about what suburbia is costing government, let's not forget to level the playing field with all those costs unique to a city. Such as the high rate of inner city crime, schools, bridges and streets, bus stations, etc. And what about all that cash flow FROM the suburbs TO the city for things like stadiums, county buildings, transit... I don't claim to know what all the costs are for either cities or suburbs, but I don't think cities are somehow crutching the suburbian lifestyle at all. I'd bet it's the other way around.

Posted by: scott on May 2, 2008 01:02 PM
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