The reason certain government systems have an atrocious reputation with the general public is because of stories like this. Kids get placed back with abusive parents but a dad - who quite obviously has the popular culture knowledge that one would expect from a bookworm archaeologist - has his kid taken away because he didn't know what Mike's Hard Lemonade, as sold at a sports stadium, is.
Somewhere in this whole scenario is an adult or two who needs a massive reality check and serious disciplinary action in the workplace, for conduct unbecoming a sentient being.
Posted by Eric Earling at April 29, 2008 10:09 PM | Email ThisThe way I see it, we are witnessing the conversion of Ann Arbor's two newest Republicans. Welcome aboard Chris and Claire!
I agree that this particular CPS worker is an idiot, but you said this:
"OK, so this is what happens when a giant statist bureaucracy makes the decisions. And what party is the party of giant statist bureaucracies?"
Just curious, how would you handle suspected cases of child abuse, child neglect, rape of a child, and incest? If a government agency doesn't handle these issues, who does?
As someone who went through the state of Washington's adoption system (along with 6 of my siblings, ranging from 5 to newborn), I can heartily say F&^*( you.
DSHS is a soul crushing, child killing joke.
Go to Google and lookup the case histories of parents who have had their children taken for next to nothing, and then search for the kids who have died in child care - chained up, beaten, neglected, burned, turned back in, given back up, turned loose on the street, starved to death.
Posted by: Aaron on April 30, 2008 02:39 AMThe question I put to Jeff B and you is this:
"Just curious, how would you handle suspected cases of child abuse, child neglect, rape of a child, and incest? If a government agency doesn't handle these issues, who does?"
1.So, what is YOUR solution if government doesn't handle this? What is your answer. F'ing me for asking what is the alternative doesn't change the fact that there is child abuse, child neglect, rape of a child and incest, does it?
2. Ayn Rand defined "statism" as follows:
"Statism--in fact and in principle--is nothing more than gang rule. A dictatorship is a gang devoted to looting the effort of the productive citizens of its own country. When a statist ruler exhausts his own country's economy, he attacks his neighbors. It is his only means of postponing internal collapse and prolonging his rule. A country that violates the rights of its own citizens, will not respect the rights of its neighbors. Those who do not recognize individual rights, will not recognize the rights of nations: a nation is only a number of individuals."
"The Roots of War," Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 37.
2. For a brief look at Rand ideas, the 1964 interview in Playboy is excellent:
http://www.ellensplace.net/ar_pboy.html
So, Aaron, my question to you is this. Rand followers and libertarians seek to be a controlling majority in the republican party. They seek to challenge democrats successfully for public office. Should you win, you have to govern.
What would YOU do about child abuse, child neglect, rape of a child, and incest?
CPS has power to act without a jury trial. That's the problem.
Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on April 30, 2008 07:34 AMI, personally, think that both OJ and Robert Blake were guilty. They were able to hire the best attorneys and specialists. So, we have a case in Pierce County where the wealthy owner of a flying school is charged with abuse of children, not his own. Still, this is a useful example. Whose rights are paramount, the right of the child who relies on others for their care, or the alleged abuser? I agree that the alleged abuser is entitled to all their Consitutional rights, but the law has always allowed for injunctive type relief when there is a great risk of harm.
What OJ and Blake illustrate with the Phil Spector case is that money buys a certain type of "justice." So, a wealthy abuser's children might not get the full protection of the law.
I am not arguing any kind of perfection in the current system. Do you have a better system that is practical to implement and still protects children?
The answer really is in promotion of strong families. This society has an epidemic of single parent households, serial relationships, and all kinds of substance abuse. We now have grandparents raising children, the fallout from the breakdown in the family.
I am sure that libertarian ideas appeal to the followers of Ms. Rand, that very, very, very interesting lady. I don't know if you could govern using her ideas particularly in a society as complex as the US is today.
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 07:49 AMAt one time or another we have all experience statism. We have all experienced the fate that befalls an individual when confronted by a state gang. The experience is so common we have learned to tune it out.
The kids that are suspended from school for drawing rifle or bringing in a toy soldier is a form of statism.
Providing state agencies with unchecked powers invites absurdity and corruption.
Posted by: Snuffy on April 30, 2008 08:07 AMSame question to you, Jeff B, Aaron, and Jonathan. How do you libertarians plan to govern once YOU are in office. Do YOU:
a. Eliminate Child Protective Services
b. Eliminate the foster care
c. Give ALL accused parents the right to a jury trial
d. Do you give parents that can't afford a lawyer a lawyer to help them prepare for a jury trial.
e. Do you increase the number of AGs to argue the state's position in a jury trial
How do you folks plan to govern and still protect children? What is YOUR plan? Since you are always concerned about cost, what do you think the cost of your replacement system is both in terms of operation and the lives of children?
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 08:19 AMAs anyone with a history of managing people can attest, some people take following the rules to the extreme. You can't teach people common sense.
Unfortunately, liberalism attracts people without common sense like jam attracts flies.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on April 30, 2008 08:25 AMCalling an alcoholic beverage "lemonade" is a calculated way to get "kids" to drink it. The dad fell for the marketing scheme, as many 15, 16 (and probably 12 and 13 year olds) do.
Posted by: John Bailo on April 30, 2008 08:31 AMThat's a question you should pose to your candidate Christine Gregoire. How many children have to die under Governor Gregoire's watch to have some accountability from the state and the DSHS??
What number is "acceptable losses" to you WVH, Gregoire supporter? eh, just keep your head in the sand and wave your pom poms around for the Queen of the Evergreen......afterall, ignorance is bliss.
How many times has group been sued for MAJOR mistakes.
Government looks to grow, not to fix problems. Because once they are fixed, government is no longer needed.
That answer your question.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 30, 2008 08:45 AMBoth candidates will be asked that question in debates all over the state. So, the question will be posed to Senator Rossi as well.
A couple of questions, first doesn't Senator Rossi in his transportation plan fund a portion of it through the general fund. So, what cuts would be necessary?
On the last Robert Mak program, he says in an answer to the budget problem that he would cut some state programs, so would children's programs be included.
Part of the problem with CPS systems all over the country is:
a. High case loads
b. Lack of training
c. burnout of front line workers
Both candidates should be asked these questions, including Senator Rossi.
So, in terms of how many child deaths are acceptable? NONE.
You and the boys still haven't answered what you would do better and how you would do it.
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 08:49 AMLet's deal with reality, not libertarian theory. Some kids are brought into this world by parents who are unable to care for them in an appropriate manner, for whatever reason. Here is the goal: design some mechanism for caring for children who may need:
a. temporary care and after a time may be reunited with their parents
b. long-term care
c. a process to have the rights of adjundicated abusive and neglectful parents terminated permanently so that the child may be placed for adoption
Now, you design a system you feel works and describe it.
Hint, the best system is the family, but if that fails what do YOU do?
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 08:57 AMThe short version of it is "we can't afford to just build more prisons". But magically we have been able to afford hiring idiot liberal social workers who don't think anyone is a criminal.
It's pure simple common sense. There will be less crime if criminals know they'll be locked up a long, long time if they're caught.
Having to explain this basic stuff just illustrates how far down the road of stupidity liberalism has taken us.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on April 30, 2008 09:09 AMLet's worry about Washington state for the moment shall we? Quit giving a pass to the negligient Governor by putting a national spin to this.
"Both candidates should be asked these questions, including Senator Rossi."
Posted by WVH at April 30, 2008 08:49 AM
The time for questions are over.Has Christine Gregoire been a "Candidate" for the past 4 years or Governor of the State of Washington with Oversight of a dysfunctional DSHS system that has let children die on her watch?
Answer: Supposedly the Governor
"So, in terms of how many child deaths are acceptable? NONE."
Posted by WVH at April 30, 2008 08:49 AM
Perhaps you should start telling your Canidate for Governor that. So far her record isn't reflecting that she's even aware of a problem.
Posted by: Rick D. on April 30, 2008 09:25 AMYou and your fellow libertarians can personally attack me all you want. I have asked YOU and the boys as to what YOUR plan is. The only plan YOU have is to attack anyone who asks questions. If YOU and the libertarians have a better plan which would do the following:
design some mechanism for caring for children who may need:
a. temporary care and after a time may be reunited with their parents
b. long-term care
c. a process to have the rights of adjundicated abusive and neglectful parents terminated permanently so that the child may be placed for adoption
Now, you design a system you feel works and describe it.
Dude, if you have a better plan, put it out there. Voters all over the state, INCLUDING ME, would vote YOU boys into office.
TELL US WHAT YOUR PLAN IS?
Oh, I know what your plan for the next elction season is, it is just a plan of attack, attack, smear, threaten and harass. Maybe that is why that permanent majority government takeover thing appeals to libertarians and Rovians so much. You can't win elections, but you can sure name call.
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 09:27 AMWe're not paid to have a plan, but the Governor is. She supposedly has the intelligence available and the resources at hand to enact a plan so....Tell us what Your Candidate and current Governor Christine Gregoire's plan is, WVH?
Well, besides sitting idly by while children die under her watch that is. That's not a plan, since anyone drawing breath can do that, even a "seminar Troll".
Posted by: Rick D. on April 30, 2008 09:51 AMOk let's start here. Remove it from a gov run systems. I've lived in this state since 1995 and the history from then to now has been out right 'shity'
Make the people who run it in charge and if they screw up they should pay and not moved on to another job with in the system with a DAMN pay raise.
Please stop this only the gov can fix it. Their record sucks.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 30, 2008 10:22 AM1. Bill C
You are so tired with that liberal, communist, socialist, now troll b.s. Truth is your ideology is empty and voters wouldn't elect you clowns to dog catcher. As you sit in your north Seattle neighborhood, Meadowbrook or something like that. What do you think the chances are of any electoral victory for you shruggies if you can't make a coherrent argument on a lame web site. You are going to call ALL potential voters, liberals, socialists, communists, or trolls? Nice outreach. If Senator Rossi is stupid enough to put you and the boys in charge of voter outreach, Governor Gregoire will win by double digets.
All you can do is label. So, Bill C, want me BANNED? Typical response from a free speech libertarian.
2. Rickie,
You are right, neither of us has to come up with a plan, but both gubernatorial candidates do. By, the way, Senator Rossi gets his tittle from being a state senator. I don't know if you had carpetbagged your way into the state during his term, but he has some reponsibility for the current system. So, I am waiting to hear his plan.
3. Medic,
Your plan is to get government out. OK, who:
a. investigates child abuse allegations
b. who arranges for care for the children
c. who monitors the children's care
If government is out of the plan, who are the stakeholders in YOUR plan? So, what are some basic details of YOUR plan?
Posted by: WVH on April 30, 2008 11:17 AMIf you are not allowed to sit at the table, how can you offer solutions? Or, take the case of Geoff Simpson of Wash. Leg. fame- he came in here and demanded what specific government programs should be cut. You see, his game, and no one played, is for you to list a program that needs cutting or reduction and then he will pounce. Forget that the government is a connoisseur of wasteful spending. He is looking for you to mention a program to cut with its multitudes of special interest groups and employees. He is baiting you (as you are baiting everyone here) so he can pounce. And he will win because behind all the waste, every single government regulation once started out pure in spirit and with good intentions to solve a common wrong. Unfortunately, most of these programs get carried away.
Posted by: swatter on April 30, 2008 11:48 AMWrong. One of the "candidates" has been in the position of top law enforcement officer in the state of Washington, has oversight of the DSHS and has taken little or no action in remedying the inherit problems within this agency. Stop with your ignorant "Everyone's responsible" as it smacks of blatant partisanship which we both know you are despite your claims of "indie" status.
"By, the way, Senator Rossi gets his tittle(sic) from being a state senator. I don't know if you had carpetbagged your way into the state during his term, but he has some reponsibility for the current system. So, I am waiting to hear his plan."
Posted by WVH at April 30, 2008 11:17 AM
So you want to hear an alternative plan to Governor Gregoires plan of "DO NOTHING AT ALL"? Anyone with an IQ over room temperature recognizes that this current Governor is a failure (with the exception of a few diehard ignoramuses)
also, how do you know I'm not a native Washingtonian? YOu don't, do you Wilda.
..." OK, who:
a. investigates child abuse allegations
b. who arranges for care for the children
c. who monitors the children's care"
Posted by WVH at April 30, 2008 11:17 AM
Obviously not Christine Gregoire. She's asleep at the wheel and Washington state is veering off the road badly. How many deaths of children are acceptable to you Wilda? You said none, but your candidate doesn't agree by her actions. Hope you ask her at the next rally....we'd be interested when the day will come when we don't turn the page of the newspaper and read about the death of yet another child under the watchful eye of Christine Gregoire.
I wonder what a "shruggie" is...but then WVH is above name calling.
And does it not get any more revealing when WVH labels SP as a "lame web site"? As I've said, I don't know who WVH is but I sure know what she is.
And why would anyone other than a leftist waste so much time and energy infecting topic after topic on a "lame" web site?
Someone being paid by left leaning activists, or perhaps even the DNC? Just a wild guess.
Since I am not afraid to post under my real name I can't help noting that WVH has taken the trouble to actually research where I live. She's a bit off though. I live in Lake City.
I'm proud to perhaps be the first to have outed WVH as a leftist troll. She's followed the script so well. First she's an "independent" and then later comes the name calling, the incoherent rants, and most recently unstopping references to Karl Rove. And ultimately she gets furious and dare I mention it, just a bit mean. I guess maybe WVH is just giving us an example of what liberals mean when they say they want to engage in "dialogue".
Didn't read what I wrote did you WVH?
I said remove it from Gov run. Make the people who run the new system in charge and if they goof they pay. Something Gov never does!
I hear you scream day after day for our kids in school. Well lady, the schools have been run by dem's & the big gov brother.
So please, will all your great ED back ground. Why is it our kids are failing more and more. Even worse many can't even do simple math.
So what is your answer? MORE GOV MESS.
DSHS gets it budget based on the number of kids in care. They WANT to be overburdened so that they can scream for more money. The first rule of expanding a bureaucracy is to create a crisis.
I also love it when they find birth relatives of a child who do not qualify to be adoptive parents, but place the child there anyway. Again not giving the child an opportunity to have a safe and stable family.
You want a plan for improving the system? There it is. Find homes for kids while they are still young enough and undamaged enough to be adoptable. Right now about half of all non-step parent adoptions are international. Most of the reason that families go overseas for kids is because the kids can't be pried out of DSHS's clutches.
DSHS needs to be, and easily can be, much smaller. At the same time it can provide more and better services to children. Virtually no changes need to be made to the existing system. All you have to do is tighten up termination timelines and conditions on abusive families.
But guess what, that isn't going to happen. The Dems want the poor to be their friends. So they keep the druggies and alkies happy by letting them keep their kids, and providing lots and lots of services to keep dysfunctional families dragging along. Start taking kids away from the crackheads and that underclass would rise up in righteous wrath.
Sucks.
So yeah, this story makes perfect sense. Snatch up the kids whether they need it nor not. Push services on the families whether they need it or not. Keep the kids and families in the system at any price, even if that means screwing up the lives of good parents, and leaving kids trapped in foster care limbo who have bad parents.
Hairy
Posted by: Hairy Buddah on April 30, 2008 02:53 PM1. Bill C. you reported that you attended your caucus for the 46th, I believe on a prior thread. Investigate you, no, your are not that important and that is something you boys do. Now as for labeling, I have been called a communist, liberal, socialist and now a seminar troll, that is a new one, what is that? You outed yourself as living in North Seattle. Do you ever expect to see a representative from that area with your ideology?
I thought "shruggie" is kinda cute. The glue that cements you you boys is a love of Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead. How many are you, at least six? I am just a private citizen who began recently researching Ms. Rand, that very, very, very intereting lady. It struck me as curious that so many of the concepts you boys use seem to be the same. By the way, the lady is fascinating. The ideology is bit on the order of that dungeons and dragons thing, so I can see why the boys like it.
2. Medic
I did in fact read your post. If govenment is totally removed, what are you proposing, a private system run by private companies to handle the issues currently handled by DSHS? Is this system contracted out to who, Boeing, General Electric or Who? What about accountability and oversight. My point is the solution is not as simple as you seem to think.
3. Rickie,
I am going to shock you. I would vote for a candidate who could do better. I don't think Senator Rossi can because here is the problem.
The best institution for raising children is an intact healthy family. Once that institution is in crisis, as it is now, the fix is not going to be easy of cheap.
I thought Jeb Bush was a good governor, but he had problems with the Florida equivalent of CPS. I admired Governor Jeb Bush for pushing vouchers for kids in failing schools. I think Senator Rossi is a bright guy, but he would have problems as well:
Under Fire, Florida Chief Of Child Welfare Resigns
Published: August 14, 2002
The head of Florida's child welfare system resigned under pressure today, four months after the state agency gained national attention with the disclosure that a 4-year-old girl in its care had been missing for more than a year before anyone noticed.
Kathleen Kearney, secretary of the Florida Department of Children and Families, was chosen by Gov. Jeb Bush four years ago to carry out his campaign pledge to fix the troubled child welfare system. For months since the department announced in April that it had lost the Miami girl, Rilya Wilson, Mr. Bush had defended Ms. Kearney amid other disclosures of mismanagement and child endangerment.
Mr. Bush, a Republican who is seeking re-election in November, continued today to defend Ms. Kearney while also announcing her resignation, effective Sept. 3...."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DE1D91E3AF937A2575BC0A9649C8B63
This is will be difficult to solve no matter the party or ideology of the governor.
4.Hairy,
Totally agree with you on the issue of adoption and the kids have to be removed from abusive parents before they are too damaged.
State trails in paying foster parents
But U.S. study's conclusions are questioned
P-I STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES
Raising a child is expensive, especially in the high-cost Seattle area. But the amount paid to foster parents in Washington falls far behind actual living expenses, with the reimbursement rate ranking among the worst states in the country, according to a national study released Wednesday.
The survey analyzed regional living expenses state by state and recommended a minimum monthly rate. Washington was among states that would have to raise rates 76 percent to 100 percent to meet the recommendations, making it one of the 14 states falling furthest behind. The state has on average about 10,000 children in foster care...."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/334045_foster03.html
The child was not harmed after the dad unwittingly bought a hard lemonade at a sporting event. The number of government employees involved to resolve this otherwise harmless situation - more than 20, including the arresting officers, CPS, Medical staff and countless others that played a role. Cost to Ann Harbor for this rude interruption of an otherwise pleasant family afternoon $__________________.
And now some twit challenges me and demands a plan. My plan is for government to not overreact to minor, possible infractions. You don't use a sledge hammer to kill a butterfly. If the twits of the world don't get it, let them get arrested for jay-walking.
Posted by: Snuffy on May 5, 2008 09:50 AM