Given that talk about the Legislature's inaction on the Key Arena proposal isn't dissipating , and that other ideas continue to foment, one fact needs to be clarified:
Key Arena is a publicly owned and publicly-run facility. It is not in any way a private, single-use arena.
Ardent opponents of the Sonics never seem to grasp this point. From vocal legislators to local talk radio, they seem to associate Key Arena solely with a now somewhat controversial franchise, rather than understanding the reality it is a facility owned and operated by the City of Seattle.
Now, there are certain grievances that one might disagree with but which are grounds for respectable opposition to a deal to keep the Sonics in town. They include, among others:
1) Being utterly offended by the shabby treatment the NBA has given to Seattle since Clay Bennet & Co. bought the Sonics.
2) Being likewise perturbed by Bennet's loutish behavior in the process.
3) Wanting to make the point of saying "no," period, to any professional sports team after how Safeco and Qwest Fields came to be.
All those are well and good to a point. Though unlike either of those latter facilities, Key Arena is a multi-purpose arena whose operational function is to secure rent and/or lease agreements from a variety of for-profit sports and entertainment performers. Absent success at that, the facility becomes an annual drain on public revenue to operate and maintain.
Thus, saying no to any public money - however distant from general-purpose taxes - for upgrading a public facility of this sort isn't a logical position. Yes, it benefits a private entity at some point. So does just about every piece of publicly funded infrastructure for that matter.
Such an obstinate position amounts to guaranteeing over the long-run that Key Arena will lose money at public expense rather than successfully functioning as a thriving entertainment forum (including by securing an anchor tenant). Serious people can't and won't take such talk seriously.
It is the sort of flawed, feel-good rationale conservatives often deride liberals for using on other issues. It is the definition of poor form.
Posted by Eric Earling at April 02, 2008 07:59 AM | Email ThisYes, and then do it again in 10 years or so because the team owner starts blackmailing citizens with threats to move the team if we don't.
Posted by: NW Denizen on April 2, 2008 08:35 AMIf the city wants to be a landlord of an entertainment venue, but can't do so without losing taxpayer money, sell the venue to someone who can.
Playing landlord to entertainment companies does not strike me as an essential element of a municipal government. There seems to be a thriving private market (as evidenced by the countless cranes dotting the downtown skyline) in developing and managing property - I'm sure there are some folks out there that would love to purchase a piece of property like Key Arena.
Or the city could knock it down and make it a park. One might argue that they aren't doing a terribly good job of managing parks, but it at least seems a bit more in keeping with the proper function of city goverment.
I was no fan of the Bennett deal, which wasn't sincere at all. But the Ballmer group's plan was reasonable, and several teams with troubled finances (Memphis, New Orleans, Charlotte) might have found themselves better off in Seattle.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 08:56 AM"the $300[[$150 private+$150 public] was going to be spent turning the center into a mini-mall complete with private parking, an exclusive restraunt, clubs, bars, and trinket selling. The whole purpose was to give the sonics a subsidy as they went into competition with local small businesses! And who would get the benefit? The Sonics! All money from all events were to be diverted from supporting the Seattle Center and the parks department, and used to subsidize the team. So the $150m gift was a gift to themselves and the team they hoped to own."
Posted by: russell garrard on April 2, 2008 09:11 AMThe public portion of the funding would go toward infrastructure improvements such as a new underground parking lot to the south, improved sound systems for concerts, better loading docks and necessary seismic work. The private contributions, Griffin said, would be earmarked for specific benefits to the primary tenants, such as improved amenities for premium-seat fans in the lower bowl, restaurants and things that would provide better revenue streams.
So the public contribution is not to turn it into a mini-mall. It's for improvements that would need to be paid for anyway in order to have an anchor tenant. The private contributions is what would go towards making it more revenue friendly for the team owners.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 09:17 AMGood for them...remember the people of Seattle said no via the ballot box to taxpayer funded stadiums.
Palouse has no problem going against the will of the taxpayers...as long as it's for something he likes.
several teams with troubled finances (Memphis, New Orleans, Charlotte) might have found themselves better off in Seattle.
So if Microsoft was having financial troubles we as taxpayers should build them a shiny new office tower so they can make money?
Sounds like the NBA is overstretched, maybe they should let a few teams fail or cut back on their expenses (ie player salaries)...after all that's how businesses work in the real world.
That is absolutely not what the ballot measure said. Only that the public would get a return on investment. This deal may meet that criteria. I don't think enough study has been done to determine that.
So if Microsoft was having financial troubles we as taxpayers should build them a shiny new office tower so they can make money?
Not the same thing. Key Arena is a public facility, and that won't change. What will change is that it's going to be a huge drag on tax dollars without an anchor tenant.
Even the tax revenue in this situation is unique, and it's going to be collected anyway because it's already approved. It is not a matter of this revenue stream being used for [insert cause here]. It will either be used on existing stadia, or nothing. It's not going to get returned to taxpayers either.
There's a ton of taxes that go to things that only a few people enjoy - symphony/concert halls, museums, etc. But those things make living in this region better. So does professional sports, in my opinion.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 09:35 AMNo. They didn't.
The Seahawks' funding package was passed by voters state-wide.
The original funding package for a new Mariner stadium was narrowly defeated by King County voters. The package that ultimately paved the way for Safeco Field was different than the original proposal, was approved by the Legislature and was never - I repeat NEVER - voted on by the public.
Posted by: jimg on April 2, 2008 09:37 AMPalouse addressed your point. My bad if that's what you were referring to.
Posted by: jimg on April 2, 2008 09:41 AMToo late now, deal is gone. Good riddance. About time some city stood up to taxpayer funded Pro-Sports teams.
Not the same thing. Key Arena is a public facility, and that won't change.
True, but now it will sit empty all year long. ;)
There's a ton of taxes that go to things that only a few people enjoy - symphony/concert halls, museums, etc.
Those items don't turn around and sign lucrative licensing deals where they get to keep the money. The Museum/Symphony don't threaten to move their assets to another city every few years...or demand that taxpayers give them hundreds of millions of dollars to build them a new state of the art facility.
If a museum is unpopular it folds, if a symphony can't draw in people it shutters, if a pro-sports team can't bring in people they ask for more taxpayer money. SAM was looking to expand, they hooked up with WaMu and got themselves a bigger space...that was a smart deal.
They would if they could. Their product is not conducive to that.
taxpayers give them hundreds of millions of dollars to build them a new state of the art facility.
But taxpayers did build their facilities, right? RIGHT. I don't know what Benaroya cost, or other museums in the area. But the Key is used for more than just basketball. Take the attendance at the Key for all events, and compare that to any one of the other public venues, and then compare the taxpayer contributions to get a more fair comparison.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 09:57 AMYou'll have to forgive Cato. He thinks the GOV owns everything or wishes it did.
Far as I care. Knock it down, plant trees & grass. Quit wasting plubic money on sports period!
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 2, 2008 10:00 AMThat's right. =)
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 10:10 AMYes, with the help of large and small private contributions...they don't call it the Benaroya Hall out of amusement. Mr. Benaroya donated something close to 16 million for the Hall. Also the Benaroya Hall is used for movies, symphonies, speakers, choirs, and big production operas/plays. They also so
The people who play the instruments in the symphony are local musicians and are not paid $10 mil/yr for a 90 min session 3 times a week for 5 months out of the year.
What is wrong with using public funds that come directly from those that use and directly benefit from Key Arena? The Ballmer-Sinegal deal is a win-win for the public. It is a half billion dollar gift to the area, not a handout. Turning it down is insanely stupid. We can easily find a creative solution for the last $75,000,000.
You lefties are demonstrating your hate, selfishness, and stupidity in this thread. You folks rather pay for art at garbage dumps than keep Seattle's public arena economically viable. Open your minds, become more tolerant, and smarten up. If the Seattle area is really as smart as it thinks it is, it can easily come up with a creative solution to this problem.
Would those few bucks be better spent on improving Hwy 2? Seems a lot of people here feel it needs improvement. A few bucks a year could go a long way towards saving the lives of a few Washington State citizens rather than funding a sports team that's going to threaten to leave again in 2016?
And Mr. Ballmer and co is donating $150 million to the Key for improvements that can be used for more than just basketball.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 10:28 AMAs explained previously, this is a non-sequitor. Those tax revenues CANNOT be used for other purposes.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 10:30 AMThey could all ride Sound Transit. =P
It is a half billion dollar gift to the area, not a handout
It is a handout...the teams as good as gone. If they got a new team they'd just demand more money in the future. That's how Pro-Sports works. Rather than creating a functional business model they exploit the taxpayers of major cities.
We can easily find a creative solution for the last $75,000,000.
Hate to tell ya, the team is as good as gone.
You folks rather pay for art at garbage dumps than keep Seattle's public arena economically viable.
That garbage dump was paid for by the US taxpayers (ala Patty Murray). Seems to be a major tourist attraction to the region. I bet the owners of The Old Spaghetti are happy it's there. I didn't see any private businesses clamoring for that land.
AP, if you want to support private companies with public funds that's your choice. People of Seattle overwhelmingly voted for I-91, the stat legislature is respecting that.
If the Seattle area is really as smart as it thinks it is, it can easily come up with a creative solution to this problem.
If the Sonics were really as smart as you think they are they would cut salaries and improve the stadium themselves. Taxpayers should not be forced into supporting private companies with flawed business models.
If you feel the law is hindering you, change the law.
Posted by: Cato on April 2, 2008 10:41 AMLike what, another pro-sports team with a flawed business model? =P
T-Birds are moving to Kent, the Sonics are moving to Oklahoma, who's left? Nobody. I really have no desire to spend $75 a seat and see Dave Mathews play in a venue with god-awful acoustics.
"You lefties are demonstrating your hate, selfishness, and stupidity in this thread. You folks rather pay for art at garbage dumps than keep Seattle's public arena economically viable. Open your minds, become more tolerant, and smarten up. If the Seattle area is really as smart as it thinks it is, it can easily come up with a creative solution to this problem."
HUH! Now you're just being silly. Lots of lefties like sports. In fact, one of the most rabidly liberal individuals I know loves the Sonics so much that he is considering voting for Rossi if Gregoire doesn't keep the team here. If that's what it takes to get rid of Gregoire, I say DOWN WITH THE KEY!!! LOL : )
Posted by: NW Denizen on April 2, 2008 11:08 AMAmazing.
Posted by: Andrew Brown on April 2, 2008 11:20 AMAll of what you mention is true...and all can be experienced at college games (IMO, even more so)! :)
Posted by: Duffman on April 2, 2008 12:01 PMAgreed, you can also buy College Basketball tickets at much more family friendly prices.
A single ticket in the lower level section for tonight's game is $160 plus a "Convenience Charge" of $10.80. Yikes!
Cato,
The team will only be gone because of closed minded idiots like yourself. Also, I am calling the transfer station the dump, not the Olympic Sculpture park. They are also putting art in the over half billion over budget Brightwater sewer plant. Typical leftist ideas; refuse a half billion gift (Ballmer & Sinegal buying the team and donating $150,000,000 to Key Arena) and instead chase the team away only to turn Key Arena and Seattle Center into a money pit. No wonder we are about to lose the Sonics, aren't fixing U.S. 2, etc.; because of closed minded pinheads like yourself!
If the Democrats in Olympia can find public money for private interests such as Cabelas, strip malls in Bellevue, private ethanol firms, etc, they certainly should be able to craft a creative solution to save public Key Arena and keep alive one of the greatest PR assets to the region. The NBA is expanding to Europe shortly. Losing the Sonics hurts Seattle and its image. Pissing away a half billion dollar gift and a solution to Key Arena is shortsighted and stupid.
Posted by: AP on April 2, 2008 12:23 PMMore evidence:
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/june-0607/mexican-immigration-will-solve-itself
"As the debate over illegal immigration from Mexico rages in Washington and across the country, and as the administration’s reform bill hangs by a thread, few Americans are aware that this problem is on track to decline, and will eventually become a vague memory.
There has been a stunning decline in the fertility rate in Mexico, which means that, in a few years, there will not be nearly as many teenagers in Mexico looking for work in the United States or anywhere else. If this trend in the fertility rate continues, Mexico will resemble Japan and Italy—rapidly aging populations with too few young workers to support the economy."
Come on, let's be fair. You can get a Sonics ticket for $10. The seat is out in the parking lot however, and you need the Mt. Palomar telescope to see any of the action. Of course you could buy the best ticket courtside...for 2 grand. And don't forget to add 40 bucks if want a beer and a dog. It's a joke.
Posted by: NW Denizen on April 2, 2008 12:30 PMI have no idea what this means, but here's the facts. The tax revenue being generated from hotels, car rentals and restaurants cannot be used for Hwy 2, or any other project you deem worth funding. The taxes will go to either Safeco, Qwest or to the Key (if the legislature had acted). And they will be collected anyway, with or without the Sonics here.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 12:42 PMThat is a fact too.
Posted by: BA on April 2, 2008 12:45 PMThe team checked out last year when Howard Schultz sold them to some investors in Oklahoma.
The real close mindedness comes from the belief that you can take a money loosing pro-sports team from a large market with a median income of 45k, and move it to a much smaller market where the median income is 37k and expect to make a profit.
Typical leftist ideas; refuse a half billion gift (Ballmer & Sinegal buying the team and donating $150,000,000 to Key Arena)
Not really, even if they got the 150mil there is no guarantee anything would change. The Key gets upgrades, Sonics still leave. You could move the Trailblazers up here but then Portland would be out a fully functional Stadium...so your just passing the buck onto someone else.
they certainly should be able to craft a creative solution to save public Key Arena and keep alive one of the greatest PR assets to the region.
Oh yeah, that's a great reason to save a Stadium. I guess I failed to realize exactly how much revenue a PR asset will bring to the region. =P
The NBA is expanding to Europe shortly. Losing the Sonics hurts Seattle and its image.
I'm sure people will still be buying million dollar condos downtown with or without the Sonics here. People move to the Seattle area to get jobs, they don't move here to support pro-sports teams with flawed business models.
A handout is a handout...if the Sonics want to stay they can cut overhead and reinvest their savings into improving the Arena themselves. It's not the taxpayers or local billionaires jobs to bail Pro-Sports teams out when they get themselves into financial trouble.
Pissing away a half billion dollar gift and a solution to Key Arena is shortsighted and stupid.
AP wake up and smell the reality...THE SONICS ARE AS GOOD AS GONE...no billionaire bailout is going to keep them here.
Or the tax revenue could all go to me, if the law were changed. That's also a fact.
Posted by: Palouse on April 2, 2008 12:47 PMThe ugly question in the room is why they haven't participated in the time honored manner of showing confidence and raising capital: STOCK.
The uglier answer is because cowardly governments keep capitulating in fear.
Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on April 2, 2008 01:23 PMDo they have the parking to handle your idea? (other then pay to park)
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on April 2, 2008 01:23 PMThat idea seems to work well for the Green Bay Packers...=)
"...keep alive one of the greatest PR assets to the region."
Haaaaaaaa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Someone on this board was calling Seattle a cowtown the other day. Boy, have we got PR. : )
Posted by: NW Denizen on April 2, 2008 02:22 PMEric is right, it is an important fact that Key Arena is a government-owned facility. To solve the problem, we need to strike at the root. We need to SELL IT.
A private developer will run it at a profit, and will provide services that people actually want to pay their own money for. As long as the government runs it, it will tend to provide subsidized services, that people will only buy when they are subsidized.
I'd be VERY surprised to learn that Key Arena has, to date, provided ANY net revenue to the government. Anyone know better?
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on April 2, 2008 03:25 PMWhat happens in 10 years when the tunnel get's clogged like the S-Curves at rush hour? Build a bigger tunnel?
I think that our region should make investments in areas that bring entertainment and vibrancy (for lack of a better word.) It helps build the local economy and establish a tax base. But is professional basketball really the best investment?
I travel around the country a lot, and I never hear much about the NBA anymore unless I travel to San Antonio, LA or Arizona, and even in LA I don't hear about the Lakers nearly as much as I did years ago. It just seems like the momentum for the NBA is gone. It's a brand in decline.
I know that there are revenue figures that show some growth but I wonder how much of that is ticket prices for corporate uses rather than real local market support. I've heard attendence is up a bit in some markets, but overall it feels like the NBA is not really a healthy business from a customer demand standpoitn. Certainly not something I would make long term investment in versus other opportunities out there.
Personally, I think that Seattle needs to think about investing in other forms of entertainment that are truly family oriented and that will bring in more tourism dollars from outside the state. It doesn't have to be large theme parks like So Cal, but I think there's something to be learned from places like the Edmonton Mall, Mall of America's and the new Great Wolf Lodge complex that is opening soon south of Olympia. (Too bad it's so far from the city.) Those types of venues seem like they could bring long term tourist dollars to the region with less investment and provide a more stable tax base.
Compare the cost of building an indoor destination tourist venue/retail destiantion or local with the cost of a sports franchise and it's easy to see which would help our local economy more in the long run. (Especially now that the weak dollar is encouraging out of country tourists like no other time we can remember.)
If we believe that it's appropriate to invest state/local money in ways that make the city more vibrant and attractive, the Sonics just aren't a good way to go versus other things we could do.
You can read a summary of the study at the UIUC web site.
*** QUOTE ***
"The net economic impact of professional sports in Washington, D.C., and the 36 other cities that hosted professional sports teams over nearly 30 years, was a reduction in real per capita income over the entire metropolitan area,"Humphreys and Coates noted in the report.
The researchers found other patterns consistent with the presence of pro sports teams. Among them:
As it turns out, those workers most closely connected with the sports environment who were not professional athletes saw little improvement in their earnings as a result of the local professional sports environment."
Humphreys, who plans to present data from the report at a Nov. 29 hearing in Washington, D.C., said it is fairly common for city officials - blinded by bright visions of dollar signs - to pose as cheerleaders for projects aimed at attracting pro teams.
*** END QUOTE ***
Can inaction "dissipate"? I don't think so. It's like saying that nothing isn't disappearing.
Posted by: ram on April 2, 2008 04:14 PMHave a bake sale.
Hey! It's not a stupid as some of the crap Ron Sims and his cohorts have pulled.
A new venue can be profitable if it has enough sizzle and draw.Seattle center had sizzle and draw but lost it somewhere in the late 80's.
That is about when we started selling parking lots.
The waterfront investments will have longer lasting effect than investments at Seattle Center ever will.
Seafair becomes a real Seafair,and not Seafair at a lake.May thru september will bring more money for a longer duration of time and will justify public ownership.
I could create 25,000 jobs down at the waterfront based on waterfront events.Nickels wants 25,000 residents.We need to decide 25,000 waterfront jobs or 25,000 waterfront snobs.
Posted by: Publicbulldog on April 2, 2008 05:01 PMDemocrats in glass houses ought not lecture others about going against the will of the people "as expressed at the ballot box". Lest they be reminded of 1995 when they held the governor's mansion and the Senate, held a special session of the legislature (something only the Democrat Governor could call) and overruled the will of the people by using a phoney emergency clause to force the subsidy of billionaires onto the backs of the people.
Posted by: pbj on April 2, 2008 07:45 PMIt is too bad a Ron Paul style candidate is not running for the GOP governor nomination.
Posted by: Lysander on April 2, 2008 09:38 PMI think Key Arena and Seattle Center will be worse off if the Sonics leave.
Posted by: Agent99 on April 2, 2008 09:38 PMWhat business has the government with such facilities anyway? If the various venues that are held at Key Arena taken together are money making operations, then a private entity should own Key Arena and operate it. The taxpayers don't buy Microsoft buildings with their taxes. Microsoft pays for their own buildings because what they do is profitable.
What it comes down to is a bunch of millionaire hogs suckling the public teet. Time to shake off the piglets and send them out on their own. In the marketplace, businesses succeed or fail according to their abilities and demand for the product. Government should get out of the way, isn't that what we always hear from otherwise market oriented conservatives? Time to practice what we preach.
And for the hypocritical Cato, who will undoubtedly cackle about Rossi, stop your Democrat schilling, because in 1995 your Democrat Party forced the Safeco field upon us. No Republicans in the state house at that time had ANY ability to call a special session. No Republicans at that time had the veto power that Democrat gov Mike Lowry had. n the contrary, Democrat Lowry called a special session to enforce the override of the will of the people.
Posted by: pbj on April 2, 2008 10:13 PMThe City not only owns and operates Key Arena, it owns and operates the entire Seattle Center.
Is that the best solution? Probably not. But the entire ownership structure of the Seattle Center sure isn't going to change just because of conservatives/libertarians screaming "Privatize It!"
This is Seattle we're talking about. There are no "market oriented conservatives" sitting in relevant public office to implement what you propose.
That's why Olympia ignoring this latest offer was so fantastically stupid.
But, if you want to keep sitting on the sidelines hollering about ideas not even getting the time of day in Seattle then be my guest.
Posted by: Eric Earling on April 2, 2008 10:34 PMThere are no conservative free market politicians in office to begin the process of privatizing stadiums/arenas (which most people even in liberal seattle agree should be done) because the GOP keeps promoting liberal 'leaders' like your Dino Rossi. I would not be on the sidelines shouting for privatization if you and other GOP leaders were actually pushing conservative ideals rather than pushing for continuations in taxes and government owned entertainment facilities.
Posted by: Lysander on April 3, 2008 06:23 AMSo you're saying that if we just put up some real free-market conservatives and ran them in Seattle that they would get elected?
Sorry pal, I appreciate your passion but that's living in a world of make-believe to think that's the problem in Seattle proper. There's a reason Republicans haven't won a City Council or legislative seat in that city for decades. And it has nothing to do with what Republican candidates do and do not stand for.
Posted by: Eric Earling on April 3, 2008 08:12 AMThe only problem is, it's not a real free market, but no one gets the chance to argue that part.
Posted by: Andrew Brown on April 3, 2008 09:20 AM1) Safeco field makes money, too bad the taxpayers who build it will never see a dime of it.
2) You should learn how to count. If you notice the Legislative vote count that you gave me (House: 66-24; Senate: 25-16) it clearly indicates that members of the GOP clearly voted to overturn the will of the people for Safeco. Back then the both side of the legislature were held by a one seat majority...66 > 46 & 25 > 21.
3) Instead of pointing fingers you should be happy the Dem's are not raising your taxes to subsidize this failed venture. Nor will they be overriding the will of 75% of the Seattle voters who said they wanted fiscally sound sports venues (which apparently Dino Rossi is against).
Even worse. Your Democrat Party voted to subsidixe the profits of millionaire. So much for that party being for the average person and not the select club of millinaires.
"2) You should learn how to count. If you notice the Legislative vote count that you gave me (House: 66-24; Senate: 25-16) it clearly indicates that members of the GOP clearly voted to overturn the will of the people for Safeco. Back then the both side of the legislature were held by a one seat majority...66 > 46 & 25 > 21."
Was the Democrat governorship held by a one seat majority? The Democrat party is the one that calls itself the party of the people, for the common man etc etc etc. How many common men are millionaires?
Apparently you never learned the structure of state government in your NEA backed school education. The Democrat governor called a special session....A SPECIAL session for the express purpose of screwing over the little guy. For the express purpose of ensuring the little guy had to pay for to subsidize the profits of millionaires.
"3) Instead of pointing fingers you should be happy the Dem's are not raising your taxes to subsidize this failed venture. Nor will they be overriding the will of 75% of the Seattle voters who said they wanted fiscally sound sports venues (which apparently Dino Rossi is against)."
They might at any moment. We know Democrat governors in the past have called special sessions to subsidize millionaire sports teams with bogus "emergency" clauses to override the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box. So anything is possible. Watch out common man, first Democrats tax your bag in which you carry your groceries, then your containers from which you east your food. Meanwhile, they subsidize trolley's for billionaire's interests. Party of the people my ass. Party of the rich people is more like it.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 11:45 AMWho says it has to be the Seattle Center? Please, the straw man that it MUST be the Seattle Center is just that, a straw man.
Once again, if the market will support a team and it can be made profitable, then the market should pay for it. This doesn't mean that it must be the Seattle Center any more than saying in order for Microsoft to be successful it must be at the Seattle Center.
"But, if you want to keep sitting on the sidelines hollering about ideas not even getting the time of day in Seattle then be my guest."
They are called principles Eric. You abandon them, that is why people say there isn't much difference between Republicans and Democrats.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 11:55 AMIsn't it ironic that the so called "party for the common man" never once held a special session to end homelessness or poverty of the common man. Isn't it instructive that the "party of the common man" never once used an emergency clause to say, help the common man keep his home from foreclosure. And isn't interesting that the party of the common man gives subsidies to billionaires in the form of trolleys and such while taxing the commons man's bag in which he carries his overtaxed groceries to subsidize the billionaire's trolley? He can't afford to cook any food because his energy has a global warming tax. And when the poor slob common man goes to the fast food place because he can't cook at home because his bags were taxed, he gets taxed on the food containers in which the fast food place serves him his food.
Party of the people indeed! Party of the filthy rich people is more like it.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 12:10 PMWow, so did your party dumbass. Guess who was the biggest supporter of Quest Field? The 8th Congressional Dist. which hasn't voted a Democrat in since it was created. Get a clue already.
Was the Democrat governorship held by a one seat majority?
Nope, but that Governor was gone as soon as his term was up. =P
SPECIAL session for the express purpose of screwing over the little guy.
Still doesn't make up for the fact the House and Senate both voted for it by overwhelming majority's. In order to do that some supposedly low-tax GOP members would have had to sign off on overruling the voters voice. It was a bi-partisan hack job, in which you conveniently place on one party. This to me clearly indicates you lack the skills necessary to do simple math.
We know Democrat governors in the past have called special sessions to subsidize millionaire sports teams with bogus "emergency" clauses to override the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box.
Hey, if you want to do it that way you can elect Dino Rossi. He's more than happy to run headlong into a deal to give a taxpayer bailout to a private company with a flawed business model. I thought the GOP was supposed to be the party for Small Govt., free market, lower taxes. It's clear by Rossi 's statement that he does not agree with any of these supposed Republican philosophies.
Party of the people my ass. Party of the rich people is more like it.
Bailing out the Sonics is not a partisan thing, it's a common sense thing.
Didn't Jesus say "The poor you will always have with you" (Matthew 26:11)? Seems to me he is saying we will always have poor people no matter how much we spend. You don't want to go against Jesus' teachings do you?
He can't afford to cook any food because his energy has a global warming tax.
More likely his food is being bought up in a free market economy to make alternative fuel sources. Sounds to me like your arguing for socialized food distribution to counteract the free market policies we cherish in this country. PBJ, the closet socialist. =P
when the poor slob common man goes to the fast food place because he can't cook at home because his bags were taxed
Hmmm, runaway inflation in a recession economy or taxing bags he gets at the grocery store store (which he can avoid paying by bringing his own bags). Which is worse for the poor slob? I'm going to go with runaway inflation.
How many Republican governors ever held a special session to force the people to subsidize millionaire sports teams and override the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box?
Now if you make some shit up, I will call you on it. I want links and sources. Oh and the links ought to actually work, not like the non-working one you posted on the "name that party" link a while back.
"Nope, but that Governor was gone as soon as his term was up. =P"
As it was followed by another Democrat governor who bamboozled the voters. They are like ticking time bombs those Democrat governors. You never know when they will hold a special session to override the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box.
"Still doesn't make up for the fact the House and Senate both voted for it by overwhelming majority's. In order to do that some supposedly low-tax GOP members would have had to sign off on overruling the voters voice. It was a bi-partisan hack job, in which you conveniently place on one party. This to me clearly indicates you lack the skills necessary to do simple math."
The Democrat Party had the chance to stop this travesty, this injustice, this this "override of the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box". And what did the Democrat governor choose to do? Instead of defending the common man, he stabbed him in the back with an emergency clause con job.
"Hey, if you want to do it that way you can elect Dino Rossi. He's more than happy to run headlong into a deal to give a taxpayer bailout to a private company with a flawed business model. I thought the GOP was supposed to be the party for Small Govt., free market, lower taxes. It's clear by Rossi 's statement that he does not agree with any of these supposed Republican philosophies."
That will probably work against Rossi for sure. I know he won't get my vote and neither will the Democrat candidate. We do know however that the Democrat governors have a history of placing the interests of millionaires above that of the common man don't we?
"Bailing out the Sonics is not a partisan thing, it's a common sense thing."
I agree. It is common sense that millionaires can damn well pay for their own sports stadiums. This is called a "market solution". Say it Cato... maaaarkeeeeeet soooooooo - looooooo - shun.
I only wish the Democrat party agreed. Seems they are just itching to throw truck loads of money at billionaires such as Paul Allen and his toy trolley to name one example. Oh and his nice new stadium as well.
I'm going to be guessing one if Dino ever gets elected. =P
As it was followed by another Democrat governor who bamboozled the voters.
I don't recall him forcing people to subsidize public stadiums. He's innocent.
he Democrat Party had the chance to stop this travesty, this injustice
So did the the GOP dimwit, look at the math. 50% +1 is a majority, the numbers clearly say that if the GOP had actually did what they claim in principle to stand for Safeco Field would not exist and the M's would be in .
You never know when they will hold a special session to override the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box.
Dino Rossi has already expressed his desire to do so. I highly suspect your going to vote for him regardless.
We do know however that the Democrat governors have a history of placing the interests of millionaires above that of the common man don't we?
This Democratic Governor seems to be staying put, along with the Democratic supermajority in Congress.
Geez PBJ, just think if we had Republicans in power we'd not only have a fancy new publicly funded NASCAR track but we'd be bailing out the Sonics too. Good thing we have got a sensible Democrat controlled legislature this time around.
I agree. It is common sense that millionaires can damn well pay for their own sports stadiums.
Sure they could, they have to change their business model like any other private company looking to make a profit. Heck, Ragnar suggested selling stock. Sounds a lot better that screwing the taxpayers over once again.
Yeah, trolley is lame. Not exactly overturning the will of the voters since they didn't vote for it.
Oh and his nice new stadium as well.
Hate to tell ya dimwit, Qwest Field was approved by 51% of the voters (hmm, 8th Dist. had highest percentage of "Yes" votes in the state, so much for GOP principles). I voted against it at the time but deal with it because I respect the will of the voters.
That would tie them up with the Democrats now wouldn't it?
"I don't recall him forcing people to subsidize public stadiums. He's innocent."
Did he do anything to change the situation? Nope. He is about as innocent as a copy who looks the other way while a drug deal is going down in Belltown.
"So did the the GOP dimwit, look at the math. 50% +1 is a majority, the numbers clearly say that if the GOP had actually did what they claim in principle to stand for Safeco Field would not exist and the M's would be in ."
He bonehead, a majority in the HOUSE is not a majority in the SENATE or the Governorship. No matter how much you try to spin this, that won't change the fact that the Democrat governor went out of his way to undermine the will of the people.
"Dino Rossi has already expressed his desire to do so. I highly suspect your going to vote for him regardless."
Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources. And don't try to Obama us - CHANGE the topic and HOPE no one notices.
"This Democratic Governor seems to be staying put, along with the Democratic supermajority in Congress."
So they can continue to reward the billionaires I expect.
"Geez PBJ, just think if we had Republicans in power we'd not only have a fancy new publicly funded NASCAR track but we'd be bailing out the Sonics too. "
All hearsay on your part. I call bullshit. Never in the history of this state has any Republican governor ever called a special session for the express purpose of overriding the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box. Remember, if you try to make up some bullshit that they did, I will require links and sources and those links had better work and not go to a porn site or some other such OBAMA (CHANGE the subject and HOPE no one notices).
"Good thing we have got a sensible Democrat controlled legislature this time around."
Sensible and Democrat are a contradiction in terms. The giveaway of Safeco to the fat cats isn;t the only knife the Democrat Party put int he back of the common man. The Paul Allen Trolley, Qwest field (blowing up the King Dome while still owing millions on it), the million dollar automated toilets/crackhouses. And to top it off, the Democrat mayor now wants to tax the little guy's bags so he cannot get groceries. And if the schmuck decides to get prepared food, well the Democrats will get him there too. What is is with you Democrats and the war on the little guy? Will you not stop until his last crumb has been confiscated? Hell, even the Grinch left the last crumb in Whoville.
Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources, and they had better work too, not like that phony link you provided in post 48 of this SP thread.
With one Democrat Governor, yes.
Did he do anything to change the situation? Nope.
Are you seriously telling me the Governor can reverse the funding for a Stadium that's already fully funded by the time he's elected to office? If so maybe we can have the Governor come up and part Puget Sound to solve the 520 Traffic problem.
No matter how much you try to spin this, that won't change the fact that the Democrat governor went out of his way to undermine the will of the people.
No matter how much you try to spin this, that won't change the fact that the Republicans in the State Legislature went out of their way to undermine the will of the people. Simple math destroys the heart of your moronic argument. Passing the blame gets you nowhere.
Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources.
Click on the link back in #86 dumbass. Not my fault if you can't figure out how to use the internet.
So they can continue to reward the billionaires I expect.
Oooh, Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources. Let's jump up and down and get angry just like you. =)
All hearsay on your part.
So if it doesn't get built but has wide GOP support it's all hearsay? Gotta love your childish line of reaosning here.
Sensible and Democrat are a contradiction in terms
So you want the Dem's to be suckered into bailing out the Sonics rather than closing shop and not doing anything about it? What a hypocrite you are.
Democrat mayor now wants to tax the little guy's bags so he cannot get groceries.
Hmmm, maybe you should give him a job so he can buy his own reusable bag. Stop blaming the mayor for your lack of effort on behalf of the little guy.
I personally think it's a silly idea but the Mayor's opponents last election was a nutball. He comes up for reelection soon, maybe you should run since you like to whine about the city leadership so much.
"(hmm, 8th Dist. had highest percentage of "Yes" votes in the state, so much for GOP principles)"
It's called a newspaper, go read it sometime. I bet if you went to the library (a waste of tax dollars?) you could find the vote results yourself.
Oh yeah, I forgot PBJ...John McCain is NOT wearing an American Flag lapel pin. I've completely lost all my faith in his ability to lead us as President. =P
Simple math has nothing to do with the fact that Democrat Governor Mike Lowry held a special session to overrule the will of the people.
"Click on the link back in #86 dumbass. Not my fault if you can't figure out how to use the internet."
From you own link:
"It is important for residents statewide to understand that the state will not be paying a dime for the new arena, but will be gaining millions in revenue," said Rossi.
Looks to me like Rossi believes no taxes will be used. Maybe he is under a misconception, quite a different thing from the 1995 Democrat Gov Mike Lowry who KNEW it would be a tax and voted to overrule the people anyway.
The worst you can say about Rossi is he is confused on the matter unlike the clear thinking Deviant Democrat Mike Lowry in 1995.
"Oooh, Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources. Let's jump up and down and get angry just like you. =)"
Unlike you I can provide links. Perhaps the billionaire wants a SLUT? No problem, Democrats give him a SLUT. Does the billionaire want 12 acres of prime city real estate for a song? No problem, Democrats deliver. Would the millionaire sports players like a new baseball stadium? Seattle Democrats deliver. Oh and Locke was on the original team for the Safeco debacle to that makes TWO Democrat governors for undermining the will of the people to NONE of the Republican governors.
"So if it doesn't get built but has wide GOP support it's all hearsay? Gotta love your childish line of reaosning here"
Wide GOP support? BS you haven't proven that.
"So you want the Dem's to be suckered into bailing out the Sonics rather than closing shop and not doing anything about it? What a hypocrite you are."
Given their past history on such projects I wouldn't be surprised. Is it any reason I question your use of sensible and Democrat in the same sentence?
"Hmmm, maybe you should give him a job so he can buy his own reusable bag. Stop blaming the mayor for your lack of effort on behalf of the little guy"
Well maybe he could have gotten a job at the grocery store bagging groceries if the Democrat mayor hadn't made it so expensive that the grocery store cannot afford to pay him.
"He comes up for reelection soon, maybe you should run since you like to whine about the city leadership so much."
Perhaps you should run. I am not a Democrat.
"I bet if you went to the library (a waste of tax dollars?) you could find the vote results yourself."
Gee I see you figured out how to create a hyperlink - FINALLY. I looked but the stats don't back up your argument. Sorry.
"Oh yeah, I forgot PBJ...John McCain is NOT wearing an American Flag lapel pin. I've completely lost all my faith in his ability to lead us as President. =P"
No he has already proven his loyalty unquestionably. He served in the military. Has Obama ever served in the military, putting his life on the line for his country? NOPE. Big difference there. Hell, I bet you'd question Audie Murphy's patriotism too. How typical of yellow belly's like yourself too cowardly to serve.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 05:19 PMI see so it's OK then if we keep charging people the same taxes for something that's not really a problem except for one overly whiny private company with a flawed business model. That makes perfect sense.
Wide GOP support? BS you haven't proven that.
Rep. Gary Alexander, a Republican who represents parts of Lewis County, said after the announcement that his county was still interested in a race track.
Is it any reason I question your use of sensible and Democrat in the same sentence?
Maybe it's because you can't do basic math?
Perhaps you should run. I am not a Democrat.
You don't have to be, just be good at lying which is something your quite skilled at.
if the Democrat mayor hadn't made it so expensive that the grocery store cannot afford to pay him.
There are lot's of jobs at Grocery Stores, but Starbucks pays better and gives you health insurance/stock options.
looked but the stats don't back up your argument. Sorry.
Oh, do share..that site only goes back to '98 and the vote was in June '97 so I know your full of crap. =)
Has Obama ever served in the military, putting his life on the line for his country?
Hmmm, here are a whole bunch of SP'ers dissing McCain despite his patriotic record...look down at #38, you will see a someone who served in 'Nam saying he doesn't like McCain.
Did you vote for Kerry or Gore? Both served in the military and went 'Nam, I doubt you voted for either of them despite their patriotic endeavors for their country. I bet you voted for the guy who proudly defended Texas form those darn Mexican communists and his VP who never served a day in his life. Hmmm, I guess that makes you a hypocrite.
Come to think of it Dino Rossi has never served. Now tell me in how many of these official campaign photos is Mr. Rossi showing his support for our proud US troops in the Middle East by wearing a American flag pin? (Answer: None)
Oh look, you are down at #52 saying:
"For me the anti-McCain moment came from McCain himself." and then you sorta/kinda compare McCain to Benedict Arnold...nice!!
And here's a great link courtesy of Ragnar. So much for consistency.
I almost feel sorry for Washington State Republicans, you are stuck with two liberals masquerading as conservatives one at the national level and one at the state level, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it.
Once again you employ the Obama maneuver (CHANGE the topic and HOPE no one notices). No, Rossi's position may be flawed, but it isn't because he KNOW it will use tax monies. He is under the impression it will not. In contrast, Democrat Mike Lowry (and his accomplice Gary Locke) both KNEW taxes would be raised to support Safeco Field.
"Rep. Gary Alexander, a Republican who represents parts of Lewis County, said after the announcement that his county was still interested in a race track."
Since when is Lewis county, one of the least populous counties "wide GOP support"? Only in cato land where serial obfuscation is the main occupation.
"Maybe it's because you can't do basic math?"
Once again, you employ the Obama maneuver (CHANGE the topic and HOPE no one notices).
"You don't have to be, just be good at lying which is something your quite skilled at."
So you are basically saying that Seattle, which by all accounts is composed of a majority liberal constituency, are a bunch of idiots who believe the best lie they are told. WOW. For once you have been truthful with us Cato. Well done!
"There are lot's of jobs at Grocery Stores, but Starbucks pays better and gives you health insurance/stock options.
The number of grocery stores in Seattle are in decline. Once the Democrat Mayor's plan goes into effect , expect even more to close.
Starbuck is in decline. It seems even snobby Seattleites are cutting back on the overpriced brew. Its stock has taken a beating as well. Links can be provided if you are in doubt on this.
"Oh, do share..that site only goes back to '98 and the vote was in June '97 so I know your full of crap. =)"
Well YOU provided the link after I called BS on your assertion. It isn't MY fault YOUR link doesn't go back far enough. The original BULLSHIT on your accusation stands.
"Hmmm, here are a whole bunch of SP'ers dissing McCain despite his patriotic record...look down at #38, you will see a someone who served in 'Nam saying he doesn't like McCain."
#38? That would be look UP. ANd here is post 38 above:
38. Duffman: That's why I don't get to go to games very often, but when I do, it sure beats TV! :) Posted by katomar at April 2, 2008 11:58 AM
Says NOTHING about McCain. Once again you are caught in a lie.
Did you vote for Kerry or Gore? Both served in the military and went 'Nam, I doubt you voted for either of them despite their patriotic endeavors for their country. I bet you voted for the guy who proudly defended Texas form those darn Mexican communists and his VP who never served a day in his life. Hmmm, I guess that makes you a hypocrite.
Once again, you employ the Obama maneuver (CHANGE the topic and HOPE no one notices).
Come to think of it Dino Rossi has never served. Now tell me in how many of these official campaign photos is Mr. Rossi showing his support for our proud US troops in the Middle East by wearing a American flag pin? (Answer: None)
Has anyone brought this up with him? Did he say he refuses to wear it or simply forgot?
We are stuck with McCain because of liberal crossover voters. McCain won't get my vote but at least he doesn't refuse to wear the pin when asked as the Obamanation does and McCain puts his hand over his heart when the national anthem is played, unlike Obamanation .
So when you find a GOP politician who 1) States he refuses to ever wear a flag pin, 2) Refuses to put hand over heart during national anthem 3) has a wife who is ashamed of America and 4) is running for president, then maybe you will have a point.
Posted by: pbj on April 3, 2008 10:01 PMDo you use rental cars and local hotels on a regular basis? Seems to me the economy is still thriving in this area despite the raised taxes. They certainly don't stop people from coming to town.
Seems to me your living in the past here, crying over spilt milk. Because of Safeco Field/Quest Stadium voters in Seattle approved I-91 by 75%. Rossi apparently wants to invalidate those voters voice in much the same way Lowry did.
"Maybe it's because you can't do basic math?"
Your in denial that you can't count? Let me show you those BIpartisan numbers again...66 > 46 & 25 > 21.
Since when is Lewis county, one of the least populous counties
What are you talking about? Talk about changing the subject.
The number of grocery stores in Seattle are in decline.
Source? "Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources."
They're looking into building a PCC near my neighborhood, a Whole Foods is going up in Interbay. Last year a Whole Foods opened downtown. Last time I checked those were grocery stores. Where do you get your blatantly false information?
Starbuck is in decline.
Let's break this statement down, you talking in Seattle specifically, Nationally, or maybe Internationally? All the ones I pass by locally have Help Wanted signs on them.
It seems even snobby Seattleites are cutting back on the overpriced brew.
Maybe it's because their coffee tastes like it's been burned to a crisp? There are plenty of other coffee places that have far better coffee which will pick up the slack in Seattle.
Even better you should thank your DUI buddies in the White House for screwing up the national economy and putting the country into an economic recession. If people don't have jobs it makes it really hard for them to buy luxuries like Starbucks Coffee.
The original BULLSHIT on your accusation stands.
I proved you to be a big liar. You said "looked but the stats don't back up your argument". Since you never saw any "stats" you're A BIG FAT LIAR. =)
Maybe you should try #38 here... dimwit. Look like #38 is written by a Army M/V. Are you going to deny Army M/V's fine service to this country?
Has anyone brought this up with him? Did he say he refuses to wear it or simply forgot?
I dunno, you tell me.
McCain won't get my vote
Thanks, I will continue to ignore you and your ill informed opinions on the Presidential political process. You can continue to support your racist buddy Ron Paul.
Stupid link...#38 here dimwit. You know the thread where you said McCain was Benedict Arnold. I guess you'll try to weeasel your way out of that one. Proud serviceman/war hero vs traitor to his country. Yeah, good one.
Stupid link...#38 here dimwit. You know the thread where you said McCain was Benedict Arnold. I guess you'll try to weeasel your way out of that one. Proud serviceman/war hero vs traitor to his country. Yeah, good one.
I posted what Rossi wrote. Once again you are employing the Obama maneuver.
"Your in denial that you can't count? Let me show you those BIpartisan numbers again...66 > 46 & 25 > 21."
I think it it you, the serial obfuscator that is in denial. 1 Governor > Senate + Houe= Democrat special session to override will of the people as expressed at the ballot box.
"What are you talking about? Talk about changing the subject."
Saying it doesn't make it so. I am talking about your contention that some rep from Lewis County constitutes a "Majority of GOP". Sorry Cato, you Obama maneuver failed once again.
"Source? "Bullshit. Prove it. Links and sources."
They're looking into building a PCC near my neighborhood, a Whole Foods is going up in Interbay. Last year a Whole Foods opened downtown. Last time I checked those were grocery stores. Where do you get your blatantly false information?"
I have friends that live on Capital Hill. The number of grocery stores there has been in decline according to them.
A capital Hill blogger writes:
I know that we've all been hurting some since we lost City People's Mercantile on 15th Av, and then again when Fred Meyer pulled out of the Broadway Market.
"Let's break this statement down, you talking in Seattle specifically, Nationally, or maybe Internationally? All the ones I pass by locally have Help Wanted signs on them."
Starbucks Corp., the world's largest chain of coffee shops, dropped before a report that may show consumer sentiment declined to a 16-year low.
"Maybe it's because their coffee tastes like it's been burned to a crisp? There are plenty of other coffee places that have far better coffee which will pick up the slack in Seattle."
Apparently their coffee was good enough for several years to catapult them into the fortune 500. All of a sudden liberals say it is burned? Talk about flighty libs. He he.
"Even better you should thank your DUI buddies in the White House for screwing up the national economy and putting the country into an economic recession. If people don't have jobs it makes it really hard for them to buy luxuries like Starbucks Coffee."
First off that link does NOT say we are in a recession. By definition, a recession is a decline in a country's real gross domestic product (GDP), or negative real economic growth, for two or more successive quarters of a year. That has not occurred. Stop your lying.
"I proved you to be a big liar. You said "looked but the stats don't back up your argument". Since you never saw any "stats" you're A BIG FAT LIAR. =)"
Oh you must think yourself a real cleaver boy. Yes I saw stats. There were plenty fo states at your link. There just weren't any for the time period you claimed there were. So it is indeed true that the stats on that link didn't back up your argument. Have you been doing some bad dope lately or what?
"Maybe you should try #38 here... dimwit. Look like #38 is written by a Army M/V. Are you going to deny Army M/V's fine service to this country?"
YAWN. Yet another phoney link from the phoney Cato.
"I dunno, you tell me."
Why? You will just argue if you don't like the answer even though you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
"Thanks, I will continue to ignore you and your ill informed opinions on the Presidential political process. You can continue to support your racist buddy Ron Paul."
I don't support Ron Paul either. And the only racist I see running for president right now is Obamanation. Keep going though and I may just be forced to vote against the Obamanation.
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 12:24 PMBULLSHIT. Your link doesn't work much like your brain. Perhaps if you didn't sit on it all day, you'd see better results.
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 12:28 PM"Take 3, #48 at this link...this time it should work. "
You drug addled idiot! That is a post by PUDGE! You are so frickin wasted on your dope, you can't even keep up straight. Dopey druggie.
A bailout by any other name is still a bailout.
I think it it you, the serial obfuscator that is in denial.
You still can't count can you. Let me repeat it more slowly so you can understand: 66 > 46 & 25 > 21.
I am talking about your contention that some rep from Lewis County constitutes a "Majority of GOP".
Uh huh, who watches NASCAR...it's likely not Seattle Democrats.
"Shifting the track to Lewis County won't improve the politics and won't help the economics" - Frank Chopp (D)
That has not occurred.
Hey Dumbo, it's happening now, you think loosing 80k jobs in one month is going to improve the GDP this quarter? You are more decisional than your DUI buddies in the White House.
This convince you?
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said the U.S. economy may dip into recession in the first half of 2008.
I know that we've all been hurting some since we lost City People's Mercantile on 15th Av, and then again when Fred Meyer pulled out of the Broadway Market.
Hahah, when was the last time you were on Broadway? Clearly you haven't been there in a LONG TIME. The QFC merged into the Fred Meyer in Broadawy Market, is was a good deal because they're both owned by Kroger. It's quite a nice grocery store, complete with Meat, Seafood, Deli and Bakery sections. Let us not forget there is a Farmers Market behind Noah's Bagels every Saturday. Not to mention Trader Joes, City Market, Safeway, QFC up on 15th.
Here, let me help ya out...Grocery stores near Broadway.
Starbucks Corp., the world's largest chain of coffee shops, dropped before a report that may show consumer sentiment declined to a 16-year low.
You neglect to say how many of those are in Seattle.
Seems to me there are 126 Starbucks within 5 miles of Downtown Seattle (98101) in addition to the other 197 coffee shops within that same 5 miles radius. That's 323 coffee shops within a 5 miles radius!! No wonder Starbucks is suffering, they're serving an inferior product.
Apparently their coffee was good enough for several years to catapult them into the fortune 500.
Good for them...just because PF Chang's has hundreds of locales across the US it does not mean they serve quality Chinese food.
Yes I saw stats. There were plenty fo states at your link.
"Fo states"? We were talking about the Voter stats for that particular election. You said you saw them, you lied. =)
Comment #38 is written by Army M/V, you doubt his service to this country? Maybe you should take that up with him.
Oh yeah, here's you at #52 on McCain:
"And for the record, Benedict Arnold served too"
You're disparaging a great American Hero by comparing him to a traitor of his country. Nice job...just goes to show that a man sufferers five years in a prison camp for his country and just like that you would turn your back on him and imply he's a traitor to this country. You're a sick person PBJ and a disgrace to this site.
A moron by any other name is still a moron. Idiot, dumbass or drug addled dopey - you are still a moron Cato.
"You still can't count can you. Let me repeat it more slowly so you can understand: 66 > 46 & 25 > 21."
You still can't comprehend. Democrat gov has VETO power and yet called a special session to undermine the will of the people.
"Uh huh, who watches NASCAR...it's likely not Seattle Democrats."
"Shifting the track to Lewis County won't improve the politics and won't help the economics" - Frank Chopp (D)
Changing the subject won't make your failed assertion suddenly valid.
"Hey Dumbo, it's happening now, you think loosing 80k jobs in one month is going to improve the GDP this quarter? You are more decisional than your DUI buddies in the White House."
Once again, the drug addled symian brain of Cato has difficulty comprehending the definition of recession. Please post the links and the sources that say we have had two comsecutive quarters of negative economic growth. Until such time as you can, I suggest you put down the drugs and get clean, get a job and move out of your momma's basement.
"Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said the U.S. economy may dip into recession in the first half of 2008."
Wow, an actual working link. Congratulations. Now try reading comprehension. "May dip into recessison". And you "MAY" get clean of your drug habit too. ANything is possible I guess. When there actually IS a recession, be sure to let us know. Oh and if you ever get that drug monkey off your back, let us know that too, though I think it will be obvious as your posts will probably start having some semblence of sanity to them.
Hahah, when was the last time you were on Broadway? Clearly you haven't been there in a LONG TIME. The QFC merged into the Fred Meyer in Broadawy Market, is was a good deal because they're both owned by Kroger. It's quite a nice grocery store, complete with Meat, Seafood, Deli and Bakery sections. Let us not forget there is a Farmers Market behind Noah's Bagels every Saturday. Not to mention Trader Joes, City Market, Safeway, QFC up on 15th.
Admittedly I only go there on occassion. I am glad there are still stores in the area. Too bad people will now have get taxed for their bags and their takeout containers.
"You neglect to say how many of those are in Seattle.
Seems to me there are 126 Starbucks within 5 miles of Downtown Seattle (98101) in addition to the other 197 coffee shops within that same 5 miles radius. That's 323 coffee shops within a 5 miles radius!! No wonder Starbucks is suffering, they're serving an inferior product."
"We were talking about the Voter stats for that particular election. You said you saw them, you lied. =)"
Go look at that site. Those stats don't back up what you say.
"You're disparaging a great American Hero by comparing him to a traitor of his country. Nice job...just goes to show that a man sufferers five years in a prison camp for his country and just like that you would turn your back on him and imply he's a traitor to this country. You're a sick person PBJ and a disgrace to this site."
Nice try Geobbels, but you left a few things out. Let's look at the ENTIRE post shall we???
52. For me the anti-McCain moment came from MCCain himself. When he stood up in front of the Senate and said Americans are too lazy to pick lettuce for $50/hr that is when he was crossed off my list. Yeah he served his country, so did I. Kudos for his service but it isn't a free ticket to the white house. And for the record, Benedict Arnold served too, though I am not comparing McCain to Arnold - at least not on strictly military related issues.
Illegal immigration is an invasion of this nation. It is a national defense issue. If our borders are so porous that illegals can get in, what's to stop AQ with WMD?
Posted by: pbj on January 28, 2008 11:13 AM
So I take it that means McCain has your vote then? After all, you wouldn't reject a "great American Hero " now would you?
So you think that loosing 10k jobs a month is good for the GDP of this country?
Here are the facts...Jan - 22,000 jobs lost, Feb - 63,000 jobs lost, Mar - 10,000 jobs lost. So if 96,000 people loose their jobs in 3 months were not technically in the middle of a recession? Yeah, you keep keep telling yourself that as you ship those fine hard working jobs overseas you tin star patriot.
"May dip into recessison".
We're already in the middle of it you nimwit...here you are suggesting the President and Congress just twiddle their thumbs for another two quarters of massive American job losses just so we can "officially" define it as a recession. Sticking your fingers in your deaf ears while swearing up and down we're not in a recession doesn't help anyone. Of course you don't care.
When there actually IS a recession, be sure to let us know.
Again, let's follow your grand advice and twiddle out thumbs waiting for the recession to be "official". Meanwhile the American economy will still be failing and you will sit idly by while our great country suffers due to your ignorance.
Admittedly I only go there on occassion.
Hehe, to do what? Go play hide the sausage with your "friends" in volunteer park?
Too bad people will now have get taxed for their bags and their takeout containers.
Too bad for your side of the argument the ordinance has not passed...since neither City Council or the voters have endorsed it.
And for the record, Benedict Arnold served too, though I am not comparing McCain to Arnold - at least not on strictly military related issues.
Oh look, to pbj McCain = Benidict Arnold. You should have more respect for your fellow servicemen. Your sense of fake patriotism becomes more and more apparent every time you post. PBJ - America Hater!
After all, you wouldn't reject a "great American Hero " now would you?
I'm not the one calling him a traitor to this country, that would be you. I have tremendous respect for Sen. McCain, his service to his county, and all his flip-flop voting record in Congress.
I don't support Ron Paul either.
Uh huh, this sounds just like something the Aryan Nation would say..."Illegal immigration is an invasion of this nation.". Who said it, you did. Your Aryan Nation buddies support Ron Paul, I fail to see any proof you don't.
And yet the definition of recession says nothing about lost jobs, now does it?
"We're already in the middle of it you nimwit...here you are suggesting the President and Congress just twiddle their thumbs for another two quarters of massive American job losses just so we can "officially" define it as a recession. Sticking your fingers in your deaf ears while swearing up and down we're not in a recession doesn't help anyone. Of course you don't care."
Massive job losses? HAH! You haven't lived under Jimmy Carter. Try 21% interest rates, 7.5% unemployment and 12% inflation.
Words have meaning. And there is no obfuscation you can put forth that changes the fact that we have not had a single quarter of negative GDP. Has growth slowed? Yes, but that isn't a recession.
"Hehe, to do what? Go play hide the sausage with your "friends" in volunteer park?"
You were the one that was an expert there. Please don't tell us all what you do up there. Keep it to yourself as we are not interested.
"Too bad for your side of the argument the ordinance has not passed...since neither City Council or the voters have endorsed it."
And I hope they don't. Yet you are here defending it. You probably hope it passes.
"Oh look, to pbj McCain = Benidict Arnold. You should have more respect for your fellow servicemen. Your sense of fake patriotism becomes more and more apparent every time you post. PBJ - America Hater!"
Listen yellow belly. When you grow a pair then come talk to me about patriotism. Cowards like yourself are only able to be tough on the internet.
"I'm not the one calling him a traitor to this country, that would be you. I have tremendous respect for Sen. McCain, his service to his county, and all his flip-flop voting record in Congress."
So he will look forward to your vote then.
"Uh huh, this sounds just like something the Aryan Nation would say..."Illegal immigration is an invasion of this nation.". Who said it, you did. Your Aryan Nation buddies support Ron Paul, I fail to see any proof you don't."
*YAWN* PLINK. The sound of the straw man falling over.
Illegal invaders take jobs and burden the social programs. That is a fact. I know several LEGAL immigrants, I have helped a few people apply LEGALLY. They have to wait years to get in here. They pull their own weight. Unlike scum like yourself, they don't live off their parents well into their 30's with a doobie in their hand.
Posted by: pbj on April 4, 2008 10:59 PMNot only can you not count, you can't see the simple relationship between people having jobs and economic growth. Go take Econ 101.
You haven't lived under Jimmy Carter. Try 21% interest rates, 7.5% unemployment and 12% inflation.
Carter is not the President, Bush is. You saying Bush is as bad as Cater? Sure looks that way.
You were the one that was an expert there.
I am, seems like your the one who "goes there on occasion". Does your wife know your a closeted homosexual bigot like your buddy Jim West?
Yet you are here defending it.
I'm not defending it at all, I'm just pointing to the clearly obvious point that if you bring your own bags you don't have to pay an extra fee. It seems pretty simple and like the Latte Tax, it's likely DOA.
When you grow a pair then come talk to me about patriotism.
I've got a very nice pair, thank you.
You doubt my0 patriotism? You who on the ferry thread showed that you were willing to sell out hard-working American jobs (in an recession economy no less) to China faster than Benedict Arnold sold out Washington's army to the British. Where's your patriotism now you two-bit hypocrite.
So he will look forward to your vote then.
I dunno he's said things like this which make me doubt he'd be good for the economy:
"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated." - John McCain - WSJ interview.
In this recession economy I'd prefer to have my candidate be educated on the economy. These are hard economic times, John McCain seems like he'd be a great Secretary of Defense, not such a great President.
Illegal invaders take jobs and burden the social programs.
You mean like those $50/hr jobs picking lettuce in Yuma? I'd take that job.
I have helped a few people apply LEGALLY
Do share? Did you slip them a forged green card under the table? Was it done while you expertly rode the ferry across the Puget Sound?
They have to wait years to get in here.
I know lot's of people who've waited far longer than that, but the Bush Administration seems to be holding up the process. I guess that's what you get when you place unqualified people in leadership roles, sorta like that Mike Brown guy over at FEMA.
They pull their own weight.
So do I, but I love my country unlike you who wears your patriotism on your sleeve and puts it away when parading around on weekends with your jack-booted buddies.
You are the one that needs to take Econ 101 and learn the definition of a recession. The ecnomy loses and gains jobs all the time that doesn't make it a recession.
"Carter is not the President, Bush is. You saying Bush is as bad as Cater? Sure looks that way."
Not even close. You really need to put down the bong.
"I am, seems like your the one who "goes there on occasion". Does your wife know your a closeted homosexual bigot like your buddy Jim West?"
You are the one presuming the only thing they have of capital hill is homosexuals doing the nasty. Your the homophobe. I bet you have never even been there and avoid it because you are a homophobe bigot.
"I'm not defending it at all, I'm just pointing to the clearly obvious point that if you bring your own bags you don't have to pay an extra fee. It seems pretty simple and like the Latte Tax, it's likely DOA."
The latte tax was DOA because it affected yuppies. This one likely doesn't affect yuppies who eat out at fancy restaurants and don't takeout. The common man who has no power in the liberal billionaire wish granting club is the one who will get screwed. I bet it will pass because it is a feeeeeeeel good tax for liberals.
"I've got a very nice pair, thank you."
Well you wife has your very nice pair. I am sure you get to view it on the mantle.
"You doubt my0 patriotism? You who on the ferry thread showed that you were willing to sell out hard-working American jobs (in an recession economy no less) to China faster than Benedict Arnold sold out Washington's army to the British. Where's your patriotism now you two-bit hypocrite."
Unlike you, I have faith the American worker can compete against the best in the world. It is you who feels they need protectionist policies because you think they are too inferior to compete globally.
Yes, I doubt your patriotism twerp.
"I dunno he's said things like this which make me doubt he'd be good for the economy:
"I'm going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated." - John McCain - WSJ interview."
C'est la vie
"You mean like those $50/hr jobs picking lettuce in Yuma? I'd take that job."
Well I doubt you'd leave momma's basement. But give Johnny a call, see what he says.
"Do share? Did you slip them a forged green card under the table? Was it done while you expertly rode the ferry across the Puget Sound?"
I thought you had a screw loose. I guess in your world, legal encompasses forging green cards. Thanks for telling us that. So how many green cards have you forged?
"I know lot's of people who've waited far longer than that, but the Bush Administration seems to be holding up the process. I guess that's what you get when you place unqualified people in leadership roles, sorta like that Mike Brown guy over at FEMA."
Well the people you know all ended up in court for running accross the border. I said LEGALLY Cato. THat means you applied and were accepted BEFORE you came to this country. Perhaps if the people you tried to get into the country weren't drug mules, they'd have made it.
"So do I, but I love my country unlike you who wears your patriotism on your sleeve and puts it away when parading around on weekends with your jack-booted buddies."
You pull your fat ass up off the basement couch every 6 hour to take a crap, and get sme fritos. That's about it. You hate your country. You are too cowardly to defend it on the battle field. You sit around in a cloud of MJ smoke talking about Marx
