But not an ordinary school protest. Here's the story.
For a week, Totem Middle School students met after class in the library, posted messages on MySpace and whispered conversations in the hall. They made signs, painted T-shirts and circulated petitions.
When the clock hit 10:40 a.m. Wednesday, they were ready.
They walked out.
Around 200 students risked suspension and broke school rules to demand more discipline.
I will leave the rest to commenters, especially those who know something about this school.
Posted by Jim Miller at March 06, 2008 03:14 PM | Email ThisBet that principal wouldn't discipline the same students if they walked out to participate in an anti-war protest.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 6, 2008 03:29 PMThe high school isn't much better.
But ain't it cool? More discipline? What a novel idea. That school was a breeding ground for citizen activisism in the 60s.
Posted by: tradersmith on March 6, 2008 03:46 PMJust don't try driving more miles than the liberals want you to. That's real criminal behavior they take seriously.
I need a drink.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 6, 2008 04:28 PMInstead of worrying about these basic deliverables, they worry about the colors of the students, the colors of the teachers, meaningless benchmarks, and on and on.
What a waste. It's really not that hard, unless you are a Progressive and you need to add union layers to everything.
Posted by: Jeff B. on March 6, 2008 05:29 PMWill these students get what they (deserve) want? I sure hope so. Otherwise, these school officials owe them a ticket to the nearest private school so they can be in the safe environment they deserve.
Posted by: Michele on March 6, 2008 05:36 PMThe minute school administrators properly discipline a kid the kid will whine to his or her mommy, and mommy will threaten to take the school to court. And some liberal lawyer will take the case and a liberal judge will rule in favor of the rotten kid and his mom.
Do we need school choice? Uh, I think so.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 6, 2008 05:49 PMMy comment is: It is so amazing/dreadful to see the vast differences between some schools. I'm not talking about your typical stereotype of South Seattle schools not doing 'as well' as the affluent neighbors to the north and east. Some schools can do very well with very little, while other schools have amazing facilities and very little else.
The best school I ever worked at was a school off of Rainer Ave South. The principal, before the performance, gave the kids a brief talk. She said, "Lets be a good audience for this group. Why should we be a good audience? Because we respect our teachers and we don't want them to look bad. Because we respect our parents because they want us to learn. Because we respect our community because we want to be a better place.
It was a breath of fresh air, albeit a tangent,and serves as a benchmark for other schools across the sound.
Posted by: Jeremy on March 6, 2008 05:57 PMJust try telling that to the fawning teachers when their darlings skip class to protest some invented 'civil rights' cause. Oh, the horror, those kids are such moral beacons that they MUST miss classes so that the TV cameras can highlight the chanting and capering.
But asking the teachers to clamp down on students 'exploring their inner thugs'? After the shining examples of all the University Presidents and administrations of the 60s, meekly surrendering to the mobs busting up the classrooms and instantly devoting millions of dollars to promote those sacred Causes - with never a whisper of reprimand, nor any real discipline at all - how can we ask these WEA paragons to break with that holy tradition of enabling thugs and the hell with students trying to learn anything?
These Totem Middle School kids have a socially useful purpose to their demonstration. Unlike the savages who took over the Columbia, Berkeley etc etc campuses.
Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on March 6, 2008 05:59 PM
Remember these folks are paid on head count, so if there are enough of you willing to transfer mid-term, they will have to start laying off staff and then maybe the union will start to take notice and you might get some action.
Posted by: Smokie on March 6, 2008 07:18 PMRemember these folks are paid on head count, so if there are enough of you willing to transfer mid-term, they will have to start laying off staff and then maybe the union will start to take notice and you might get some action.
Posted by: Smokie on March 6, 2008 07:18 PMLet me pull the string on the Michelle Obama doll.
"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of today's youth."
Posted by: Andy on March 6, 2008 07:37 PMThis reminds me more of "Lord of the Flies", which is getting to be a trademark in this culture - sad commentary !
Posted by: KS on March 6, 2008 07:56 PMAnyway, my son is in a private school. Best money I have EVER spent. There are six kids in his class that tried the public school system this year. The kids are back to private because the parents were absolutely appalled being taught, and what was NOT being taught. One parent said that after two months, the kid never opened a book and was redoing the stuff they learned in kindergarten.
Posted by: Guinness02 on March 6, 2008 08:26 PMWhy haven't these parents stepped up? Good thing their children at least know that they don't have to put up with it. Too bad they didn't have some good advice form the adults about an effective way to communicate their complaints.
Speaking personally, the violent behavior here is not allowed in the school I am associated with. The first sign of something going on, the student is expelled. And, yes, students get expelled and it sticks if the administration has the backing of the district and is consistent in application.
Posted by: janet s on March 6, 2008 08:27 PMYou probably don't want to bother, but you are entitled to dispute the suspension. If you rally all the parents of the other kids who were suspended and all of you dispute the suspension and ask for a hearing before the school board (and there are say, more than 25 or so of them) you will probably be able to garner media attention because the at least one of the board members will sympathize with you (the one whose daughter also protested) and their will not be agreement with the board. You probably only have three days to do this; read the back of the suspension notice for the details of your rights.
You don't have to take this lying down. Surely your daughter's situation (as well of the rest who were suspended) has mitigating circumstances.
Posted by: School Marm on March 6, 2008 08:39 PMSorry to hear about your daughter. I'm sure you reported this to your PTSA and directly to the school principal. I'm also sure that you have a number of additional tales to tell from your many hours of volunteer work at your daughter's school.
It's soooo good to hear from folks who are intimately involved in their child's educational process. Especially from those who are willing to commit time and money to the education of all of our children.
Someone above said to run, don't walk to the nearest private school.
Please don't. That just ignores the real problem of how we educate all our children, not just our own. Because it is ALL our children who will take us into the next generation for better or worse. Not just those who could afford private school,
"Do it for all the kids, not just yours'"
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 6, 2008 10:07 PM1. One of the key determinants to the success of any school is a strong principal.
2. If the principal takes action and kicks the gangs out of school, the next line of defense is the Super and school board have to stand behind the principal and be willing to fight any law suit.
3. All kids have the right to be educated, they just don't have the right to be educated in any particular venue if they are not adhering to rules. The district has to have plans to educate disruptive students at alternative sites.
4. If there is criminal activity going on turn the gang members over to the authorities for whatever appropriate criminal action. The case law varies on locker searches, but that might have to happen. Extra security to patrol the halls is expensive and gives the air of a prison, but that might be a temporary solution until gang members are driven or rooted out.
Dr. Bill Cosby's message on gangs is nicely summarized by Marian Wright Edelman at:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marian-wright-edelman/dr-bill-cosbys-message-_b_83551.html
If the administrators don't have as their first priority the safety and education of the students that want to learn, they and the school board should be gone.
This appears to be a weak administrative situation where administrators are very afraid of not have tough decisions backed-up and the gang members know it. They will threaten a lawsuit and the district has to be willing to fight one. Meanwhile, kids that want to learn are kicked to the curb.
Parents need to find out when the next school board meeting is and they need to appear enmasse to protest any suspensions and ask some very tough questions about what is going on.
A few years ago, she wanted all of us to challenge the voting credentials of all the hispanic surnamed voters in the 2004 elections because they might be illegals. Even Stefan posted to disavow that line of thought as blatantly racist.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 6, 2008 10:34 PMParents need to call the admin office of that school and find out what voluteer opportunities exist so they can personally observe the situation on the ground in that school and make it better.
To just show up at the next school board meeting with "very tough questions" will not make much of an impact.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 6, 2008 10:40 PMTotally disagree with you. Education is one of the most political sectors in the society. School board members run for election. Even though the levy is now a majority, schools have to pass levies. Schools need community support. If the super feels that he/she has lost the support of the school board, contracts don't get renewed. Voluntering is one thing, but parents need to get these suspensions off the kids records.
Parents can both protest and volunter, like chewing gum and walking, I suspect.
Posted by: WVH on March 6, 2008 10:56 PMI wouldn't sent my dog to a public school in this state, it would be animal abuse, and I love my dog more than that.
There are a lot of excellent public school teachers in this state, but the Union and the Democraps are quickly destroying their values.
It is a really really sad situation.
Posted by: GS on March 7, 2008 12:07 AMAnd before you start hurling insulting names and implying things about which you have no knowledge, you should know that I AM HISPANIC. (didn't see that one coming, did you?)
You are entitled to keep your kids in whatever school you want, but back in '96 while Gary Locke was claiming that he would make schools good, it dawned on me that my kids' public school experience really wasn't going to get any better no matter how much I wished it would. We left. It was one of the best things we ever did. My kids said they didn't learn much in public school. I remember the 4th grade teacher asking the entire class to tell him what a consonant was.
Not one kid gave an answer.
I'm not willing to sacrifice my kids' well-being and education on a broken system that refuses to change. It's not really any better, these days, from what I'm witnessing here and elsewhere. The stories coming from local parents are disturbing. We're still paying all the taxes to support public school that we used to. So we have to pay twice to get our kids the education they deserve. It's too bad that those who run the public school systems or have any authority over them (like the state SPI), aren't giving the public what they deserve for the tax dollars they pay.
Where are the parents? Excuse me, they are re-electing liberal democrats.
Posted by: snuffy on March 7, 2008 05:10 AMEarth to Unkl Witz. June Cleaver had time to volunteer in Wally and Beaver's schools. What parent has time to do that now?
Do we not pass school funding levy after school funding levy? Yup, we sure do. And do the schools ever improve? Nope, they sure don't. They just keep whining for more funding.
I don't care how much money we give liberals, "for the children", things never get better. Even my very liberal sister sends her kid to private school.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 05:39 AMNO-WAY, he was huge!
Let teachers teach and the bad kids pay the price.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on March 7, 2008 06:27 AMBy his own admission, that's what happened to him. I suspect that has a lot to do with his own current intellectual capacity.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 7, 2008 06:48 AMA few suggestions...
Turn off the TV. Put the cork in the bottle. Quit making excuses about how busy you are. Then get off your fat rump and get down to the school house to see what needs to be done.
Lots of other parents find time to volunteer. It's a hallmark of any good school, public or private. You can do it too. It will provide you with a great sense of satisfaction that you are part of the solution rather than the problem.
Then when you do go to the board meetings, you'll probably sound like someone who knows what they're talking about rather than just another Bible thumping wacko.
The issue was some old, lazy ivan type WEA rep who was demanding money for salaries that weren't available. The representative refused to come to the table.
The district spokesperson was someone who made six digits as public affairs communicator (off topic, but I was and am jealous at the wage for someone to give press conferences).
The district was also having trouble with superintendents- keeping them. The teachers/WEA didn't like the one they had so they struck in what was the longest strike in state history.
So, the upshot is that there is history with this school district, though their reputation is getting better.
Posted by: swatter on March 7, 2008 07:24 AMFor those 44 years they have been paid more, did less and now you have what you voted for. Higher taxes, students at risk in school and teachers who just need to be paid more and then they will do the job right.
Its has to be one of the best jobs in this state. Get paid more for less results and blame in all on your low pay last year.
Wake up parents, next time do not vote for more money until all this stops. What is going to happen, will it revert to like it was before? When kids were safe in school and could compete in college or in jobs, right out of high school.
Posted by: Sam on March 7, 2008 07:46 AMSince your lib biddies have been running our schools we can see what has happen.
Yeah you of such higher IQ.
PS. UNK
Only a fool would make a remark about someone who they do not know.
Haven't heard from you in a while. Where you been? Can't say I missed you. There you go doing the lib, er I mean progressive, no I mean the dummy line again.
You, and those who think like you, are a broken record. You equate spanking with being beaten with a club. You should have had some of that in your formative years and maybe you wouldn't be the fool you are today.
If you squelch a disciplined society you will get a mostly undisciplined one. We see the results. It's just the tip of the iceberg to what is yet to come. You may yet live to regret it.
Posted by: REBEL on March 7, 2008 08:31 AMFWIW, I know almost nothing about this particular school and so I am not ready to blame anyone in particular. I have heard from callers on talk radio -- who are sometimes right -- say that there is a problem with the superintendent in that system.
That seems plausible to me, but before I blamed anyone for the problems in this school, I would want to know a LOT more about what is happening there. And I hope commenters can fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge.
(If you would like to email me privately with info on the school, please feel free to do so.)
Incidentally, I found comment #11 from Jeremy fascinating for what it tells us about the schools in this area. And there is a broader lesson in it since the schools he has seen are governed by the same state laws and -- I would guess -- have the same teachers union. But some manage to do much better than others.
Posted by: Jim Miller on March 7, 2008 09:39 AMWhoever you are, I'm not going to participate in name calling contests with you. If you want to discuss the issues on this thread, fine.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 10:29 AMI mean COME ON, any dog trainer knows that there has to be consequences for bad behavior! How much more when the we are talking kids who have more potential than dogs!
Am I stepping on any toes by making this connection? Oh well. I say name all the kids who are disruptive. And lets get the names of the administration that gives them only a slap on the wrist.
Posted by: Mark - Meneltarma on March 7, 2008 11:23 AMI met up with him, a wonderful gentleman who has since passed away. He told me, "Bill, things now are nothing like when you were growing up".
I was told much the same thing by many other educators I met up with, (I'd rather not be reminded of when one of my guys crashed through a ceiling just as I was proudly demonstrating to a principal what we'd done). They talked about the challenges they faced dealing with a mushrooming number of kids that come from single parent families and that unlock the door of an empty home every afternoon.
Liberals mock "family values" and happily promote single parenthood. When the predictable social disaster results they sneer at you, call you names, and ask for more money.
I've said it here and I'm going to keep saying it. As conservatives we should make liberal Democrats demonstrate where any of their ideas or programs have been successful. I do not believe they will be able to do so.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 11:23 AMI don't know of anyone that promotes "single parenthood". I think we all agree it is not the ideal circumstance in which to raise children. But we also should agree that it does exist no matter what we do. So we resist the temptation to demonize single parents and stigmatize their poor children who had nothing to do with their unfortunate position.
We see the term "family values" as thinly veiled code words for homophobia and religious intolerance.
We're also puzzled by a group who will spend hundreds of billions of our tax dollars and the lives of our best and brightest on a pointless war in Iraq, while resisting any and all attempts to adequately fund our public education systems.
Violence, and the threat of violence is not a family value.
Maybe I should have brought up abortion.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 01:19 PMBut I would avoid the sweeping generalizations you make in saying things like liberals say this or liberals believe that. Let's talk about what you said, and I said.
Again, I don't want to get into a name calling contest. If you aren't able to meet the challenges posed here then just simply admit it and move on.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 01:44 PMWhen he can't win. Time to talk about something else. If that doesn't work, then he'll throw out a insult!
What a loser.
Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on March 7, 2008 01:53 PMAs for the rest of your comment... I honestly can't figure out what you are trying to say.
Another rousing success for liberalism.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 01:59 PMI don't recall anyone in LBJ's administration campaigning to promote single parent households as somehow preferable to more traditional lifestyles, but what the hey... my memory isn't what it used to be. And it was never all that good.
Now back to the local public schools Bill. Are you part of the solution? Or just another handwringer with a lot of "ain't it awful stories?
"Dear Ms. Albertson,
I realize you have a tough job. I have several family members that are in public education and my brother is a HS principal in Tacoma. I have several close friends that are teachers.
I am disheartened to read your comments regarding the protest by students at your school asking for more discipline. I would hope that a public school administrator would embrace students that want a safe, quality education. Those students were engaged in a noble cause that unfortunately broke a school rule. It should be a teaching moment to point out that this was an example of civil disobedience. But rather than punish the 'protesters' you should do everything in your power to rectify the problem for which they walked out. You will only weaken your authority at your school not only with those that fought for an honorable cause but will show weakness and acquiesce to those that continually disrupt the education at Totem Middle School. Please carefully consider where the problem really is and take the appropriate steps to deal with the real problem."
Posted by: James D. Kellett on March 7, 2008 02:35 PMO.K. let me start by being the first to point out that the left, and especially self styled "progressives" give less money, give less time in fact they give less of everything except for lip service to charitalbe causes. (that would be tax deductable charitable causes, we are not talking about donations to the DNC or the ACLU here) This is documented FACT, the research has been replicated and is peer reviewed research. So you are not living in the real world.
Actually you ar as full of sh*t as the guy on the radio who was going on and on about the "contradiction" between the attacks on eachother by Clontoon and the Obamasiah camps. "Oh it is such a contradiction to what liberals stand for to have this kind of attack, as everyone knows we are not about that and it is so out of character and bla, bla, bla and yada, yada, yada, and Jimmie cracked corn and I don't care and on and on it went for fifteen without the host of the program saying "ya know you are so full of crap." And as for your "good intentions?" Whoopdi damn doo about your intentions.
If you were so all concerned about childeren you would say; "No, all lifestyle choices are NOT equally valid when there are childeren involved and furthermore either one subordinates their own ego to do what is in the best interests of their childeren or one does not and the way that decision shakes out is a fair assessment of where a person's priorities lie."
Posted by: JDH on March 7, 2008 02:44 PMOnce again, I can't really follow your last two paragraphs. Sorry, but they just don't make sense to me. Perhaps if you shorten up your sentences into a single thought each.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 7, 2008 02:55 PMI don't expect so. The game liberals play is that the education system is a constant failure, but it's always because they don't have enough money.
Liberals play the same game with every program they dream up. The program's failure always boils down to how liberals haven't managed to suck enough money out of people who actually produce goods and services and are employers.
The problem is a bit deeper, don't you think?
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 03:31 PMBut you do go on to say: "The problem is a bit deeper, don't you think?"
Yep, I sure do. And money alone won't solve it. What's required is a lot more parent involvement, both at school and at home; e.g. volunteer work. And, it would be huge if the boomers who no longer have children in the system gave of there time and effort too.
Who has time you ask. A lot of folks do, and they come and help out by teaching programs like Junior Achievement, coaching or asst coaching sports or academic teams. Helping coach or judge in programs like DECA. The list goes on and on.
Show me a good school, either public or private, and I'll show you a whole bunch of dedicated adults who contribute their time and effort.
Maybe J is right, I'm just full of s''t. But I really don't think it's a lib vs conservative problem at all. And I get weary of people using it and our children as a football in those arguments.
Tell ya one thing though: It's a problem we had better solve and solve for all the kids, not just our own, or we're well on our way to becoming a second rate economy.
Look. I largely agree with your last comment. I think the best answer is to provide vouchers for parents to have the option of either public school, private school, or home school. I think the worst option is what Democrats want, taking tax money and giving parents no option other than a failed public school system.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 04:18 PMWill his car get keyed? I'd say more than likely. Leave the car overnight and there is a good chance it will get paint thrown on it.
Which side is a magnet for angry, violent people? It's really not that hard to figure out.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 05:46 PMMy problem with vouchers is that it really doesn't fix anything. It just dislocates the market by encouraging parents to chase around looking for the best deal. Which is not a whole lot different than what we have now. The poor kids with apathetic parents get left behind in marginal or substandard schools. They fail, or drop out and presto, same problem; crime, out of wedlock children, apathy and a heavy burden on all the other social support systems including prisons.
Why are there all these "marginal or substandard" schools? We've been pouring money into them year, after year, after year.
Where has all that money gone? You liberals never have any results to show. All you do is ask for more money.
Again, not too sure what that has to do with this topic of discipline in public schools.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on March 7, 2008 06:23 PMHow does that relate to discipline in our public school system??
You just cannot bring yourself to drop the "you liberals" stuff and your ironclad, but totally offbase perception of my position on this issue.
More money is not the answer. OK?
About 15 years ago, a local scion decided to tackle this problem by pledging a large amount ($1,000,000) of his personal fortune to improve a desperately poor, and failing elementary school in Seattle (TT Minor). The results were not encouraging.
Please, one last time, clean out your ears and put on your glasses and read what I'm saying. Read it aloud if necessary. Ya gotta lose the "four legs good, two legs bad" mentality and start thinking outside your ideological box.
Schools prosper and fulfill their mission when lots of caring adults (especially the parents of the attending students) volunteer their time to assist in mentoring the students.
I simply cannot put it any more plainly than that.
You are more than welcome to disagree. But please explain why and what your solution is. And, as so many of my teachers said; please show your work.
It doesn't Unkl Witz. But nice dodge from answering my questions at practically every instance. Particularly at #71.
I honestly think the fun starts when liberals are confronted with their record of achievement. It's awfully pathetic.
Tell us all, Unkl Witz, what liberal idealism has accomplished in the last 40 years.
A huge increase in single parenthood? Abortions without parental notification? Rapists and murderers let out of prison so they can prey on innocent citizens?
I'm thinking maybe Hillary or Obama might have some answering to do.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 06:49 PMSee above at #74. Looks like we were both composing at the same time.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, especially since you admittedly want to discuss issues that are off topic and ignore my responses that are on.
Again, Unkl Witz, I am not going to play "let's exchange insults" with you. I try hard not to say anything here that I would not say to someone on the next bar stool.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 07:05 PMMakes the middle school topic of this thread have some real meaning.
In my distant memory I believe at some point I compared liberals to 14 year olds. I can't imagine why.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 07:23 PMSo instead you resort to ad hominem attacks and made up "insults"
You called me a "bible thumper" and then have the gall to talk about "insults". I can only laugh.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 07:46 PMI do think we conservatives ought to start asking liberals just exactly what liberal policies in the past four decades have accomplished.
Lots more single parent families? That's sure worked out well. Letting felons out of prison early? Liberals seem to think that's ok.
That's just for starters. It's an election year. We need to ask these questions.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 7, 2008 08:16 PMFurthermore, we can discuss the harm done to REAL PEOPLE when Catholic charities are stymied in their prenatal care efforts when the left's interests attack their acceptance of funding because it is not comprehensive. I will be happy to also say that groups that offer the same services have been attacked unfairly from the right because they offer services that are not condoned by the right. That being said, when the Catholic charities money is freed up so that it can be used for evangelizing the left's unencumbered money is also freed up to be used for abortion or condom distribution - It is the big Catch 22 and it begs the question; how about if taxpayers did not come into play and were rebated to the taxpayers to place as they see fit? Right wingers don't need coaxing or compulsion to donate, the left really does. And that is my assessment of why the left is so wedded to government (compulsive) charity. They simply don't give unless compelled to, and they assume nobody does. That is understandable, but please be fair.
The right naturally assumes that compulsive charity isn't necessary. Furthermore, the right HONESTLY sees giving without demanding a behavioral change as only perpetuating the situation that spawned the situation in the first place. Let's assume they are sincere in their belief.
Now you may argue "first cause" or "root cause" but please accept that the right also accepts this dynamic, they only differ on how to affect it in a positive way. And they differ from you on what the root cause is, to the right it is personal behavior they want to affect, to the left it is a change in society. Now you tell me which is the easier to change? Which will have more lasting effects? You really can't, can you.
So now let me offer up one of my famous analogies for you to consider: I had a friend who was dumped by a girl who took up with a guy who she said was "exciting" and "dangerous." He was devastated, here he was responsible and all agreed that he was somewhat booooorrrriinnng. Little miss excitement made her bed (her choice) and then had two kids neither her or Mr dangerous could hope to support with the lifestyle he lived. And my friend's taxes went to support this "valid" family. That is until they got back together and he voluntarily married her and now voluntarily supports them and a couple more. Let me tell you this, I listened to a man who resented what he was compelled to support, but now that resentment is not there. Now this is not a perfect analogy, by any means. He got what he wanted (her) but it does illustrate why compulsion breeds resentment. He loves those kids too and his financial commitment is much higher, but not resented. First off it was not compulsory, secondly he has the opportunity to help instill values HE believes will lead to actual betterment of all his kids (4 now including the first two) lives.
Now don't get me wrong, all kids deserve a chance to excel. But get this straight, it isn't just money that helps in that endeavor, it is values as well and so long as it was a few cents of his taxes he resented it as money thrown down a rat hole when it became money plus a chance to instill values HE believed would give the kids a chance to actually excel.... well he was no longer resentful.
Once again, this a VERY flawed analogy. But I too want my money to be used for the greatest good and I believe that charity that allows and fosters perpetuation of what I see as destructive behavior, which I see most government charity doing, I really do resent it.
It is simply a conflict of two visions - you believe with the right people, government (with unlimited power) will do the most good for the most people - I do not see that as being in the cards.
Now this is really going to get your goat, but it is what I SINCERELY believe. The people at the top on the left needs and thrives on having people who have made a mess of their lives and NEED them. That is where you and I differ, you think that the leaders on the left want all people to lead truly free and independent lives. I am more of a cynic than you in that regard. I don't believe the leaders on the left's rhetoric and I sincerely question their motives. That is all.
Totem is one of the worst in our school district and next is the high school. The high school split up unto six learning communiyies this year. Guess what they did? They hired administrators for each learning community like it is six different high schools. Now they are complaining they do not have enough money. But they added almost a million a year in overhead. They are talking about closing the pool at the high school to save about $300,000 a year.
The Herald had a study out a couple of weeks ago that showed Marysville had the highest increase in school taxes.
James
Posted by: James on March 7, 2008 08:41 PMIf it was a conservative policy, again a success, or failure?
For education (full disclosure, my kids attended both a private school and one of the best public schools in the state. I served as a trustee on the board of the private school, and was highly involved in our kid's public school education.
My observations:
1. Private schools have one very important characteristic absent the public school system - they can kick out the student, and just as important, kick out the parents, forever. Give that authority to the public schools and watch the improvement.
2. Parental involvement is absolutely key - be it the classic two parent family or the struggling one parent family. It is embraced in the private school setting because of economics - it is often seems to be denied in the public schools, though not by excellent teachers and responsive adminstrations and boards.
3. It is expensive to provide quality education - repeat, it is expensive to provide quality education. Anyone writing paychecks knows what it takes to support a single employee in revenue, supporting a teacher in the classroom is no different.
When you see a private school with inexpensive tuition there is a subsidy coming from somewhere, be it institutional, supported by considerable fundraising, or in the wages of the teachers.
4. High standards, demanding curriculium, and accountablity is not contrary to establishing strong self-esteem and confidence in students. Occasional failure is OK (don't we mostly learn from more from our failures - more than from our successes?) I still remember a teacher from my youth that said "show me a 4.0 student and I'll show you a student that passed on a challenge or two."
5. This liberal vs. conservative B.S. is just that - a bunch of hot air by folks that are not focused on educating our kids at all - instead using this as a means to express their superficial, ill-thought out, and ultimately irrelevant (as to any effective improvment in education) opinions.
This situation in Marysville is tragic - my kid's will have to employ and manage this group of children cheated out of a quality education.
Who's to blame?
The parents and citizens of Marysville. They elected the Board, they pay the bills, if the kids can organize themselves, the parents can too - faster, with more bodies, stronger voices and more authority.
Posted by: BA on March 7, 2008 09:10 PMI bet even the "stupidest" of neighborhoods could kick butt on the District, and with a fourth of the money that the schools with State and federal money have.
I mean TOTAL neighborhood control. But get this while the "poor" neighborhoods will show a marked increase the "gap" between rich and poor neighborhoods would be the sticking point the Unions would use to demonize the "rich" as exploiting.
WATCHA wanna bet. I would bet every thing I have and every thing I will ever have at 10:1 odds in their favor. Seriously. It isn't about uplifting, it is about leveling - even if it is in leveling DOWN. Just take a look at where the elected officials send their kids on a State and national level. It is ti PRIVATE schools that have, on average, a fraction of the financial commitment per child. They understand what they are doing and they DON'T want their kids to suffer but they will trade YOUR kid's education for their power.
Posted by: JDH on March 7, 2008 09:14 PM
There is precedent for a thing called "merchantability". Basically, if you buy a phone you expect to talk to another person with a phone. If you buy a chair it should safely hold you off the floor when you sit on it. Buy a can of spray paint and there should be paint in it that sprays out and covers things in the proper color. Etc., etc. If the product or service can't do its basic function than the purchaser deserves their money refunded or a proper functioning product or service supplied. I have used this before with the phone company and others when a product or service doesn't reach a low, basic standard.
I'm thinking that the kids and parents should sue the school district over the merchantability issue. As consumers of public education, they should expect to get an education in a clean and safe environment. If that can't be supplied, than remedy must be made.
It's simply a merchantability issue. Simply supply what you said you will.
I would not say that voluntary single-parenthood is the preferred choice. If you don't believe me, do a stint as a voluntary guardian ad litem, they need them. I quit, I couldn't stomach the attempt to microwave the baby and knowing that the kids would eventually go back to the mother and her boyfriends. Unless, you are Paris Hilton, single motherhood means that you will probably have serial multiple relationships, that your children will probably live in poverty, that they probably won't finish school and are likely to be parents at a young age. Some lifestyle choice.
Dr. Bill Cosby has stated what he wants for all children and I agree with him. He wants them raised by committed couples who enforce discipline and give them values and who support them in the discipline to get a good education and become productive members of society. Lately, he has been aiming his message at Blacks, but it is universal. If the dems come out with a platform that espouses single parenthood as a lifestyle choice, I might have to switch my vote from Nader to Mc Cain. Senator Moniyhan, also an accomplished sociologist wrote about the demise of the Black family and that demise has been replicated throughout society, most recently with the thugs terrorizing this school. I, like Dr. Bill want the best for all children, but it you want your tribe to glory in single parenthood, we just have to part company.
Posted by: WVH on March 8, 2008 12:10 AMThere is a lawsuit winding its way through the New Jersey courts on exactly that issue. I am convinced that the reason to water down WASL standards is they are trying to prevent exactly the lawsuit you describe. Lots of data is collected in the WASL process and that is data a plaintiff could use.
Posted by: WVH on March 8, 2008 12:14 AMVouchers are one element of a competitive education market. Usually, they have been limited to students who are coming from demonstrably failing schools. The real issue with progressives is not the market but indoctrination of kids with the secular progressive message. Case in point, the recent California case restricting homescooling to parents who have teaching certificates. It is about mind control, not education and many secular progressives wouldn't care if kids can read their diplomas as long as they vote the correct way.
Posted by: WVH on March 8, 2008 12:20 AMA bouquet of virtual roses to you this morning WVH.
You and I have had lots of disagreements, but your last two posts here are right on the money in my opinion.
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 8, 2008 08:41 AMDarned right we do! And after that, we'll use the rack. If that doesn't work...the comfy chair!
Posted by: Bill Cruchon on March 8, 2008 09:35 AMYou can be the most involved parent in the world, but if your kid has a teacher that can't teach, your kid won't learn and it will be up to you to teach him. Over 50 years of behavioral research tells us that attention getting bad behaviors are signifigantly reduced when kids are learning and feeling successful in the classroom.
Bad behavior, especially at the elementary level when the kids are young, is not the cause of failure to learn and achieve. But failure of the teacher to teach and the student to learn and be successful ABSOLUTELY IS the cause of bad, disruptive behavior.
The problem kids at the middle and high school level are the ones who were not successful in their early, elementary years. It is not the honor society students who are the disruptive ones.
If the Marysville School District was smart, they'd look at the kids who their fellow students are reporting as being disruptive and have a look at their files. It is a safe bet that vast, vast majority of those causing the problems are the ones who don't read and do math at grade level. If the Marysville School District decided to make available a remedial summer program taught with proven, effective remedial programs (such as Corrective Math and Corrective Reading, for example), they would see a signifigant reduction in the behaviors the other students are complaining about.
Folks it's simple: Shoddy instruction begets bad behavior. It may not be the only cause of disruption, but it is the biggest cause -- and it all starts at the elementary level.
Posted by: School Marm on March 8, 2008 10:46 AMAs for the school protest, we have become far too much of a permissive and me-ist society, similar to the way Rome did just before their fall. Liberalism is a mental disorder and it appears that the school administrators suffer from this sickness and the kids who protested do not respect them.
I would really consider situations like these before voting in November - we desperately need a change in this state, which means voting the incumbent Democrats out of office and making this a two-party state.
Posted by: KS on March 8, 2008 11:41 AMConservatives want to brainwash all children to believe in their reactionary ideology and religion. This is evidenced by how many pull their children from the school system and attempt to home school them, often with disastrous results.
Conservatives hate the public school system because it provides information and knowledge in an unbiased fashion and encourages students to think creatively for themselves. That's why they criticize it fiercely and attempt to destroy it at every turn.
The research indicates that there are a number of elements which must be present for a strong school and a good education outcome for the child.
Given all these these elements being present, on average, more likely than not, the child will receive a good basic education. The elements are:
1. A strong principal who is backed by their superiors. The principal sets clear education objectives, set clear standards for discipline and behavior among students and staff. I know teachers don't make much money in the beginning, but it is a simple thing, but particularly among low income boys of color, how teachers and particlarly male teachers dress is important for the message it conveys. Shirt and tie please and I know that I will get jumped on for that last statement. Despite what kids think, they will not all be sports stars and rap moguls. Some places do casual Fridays, but at least get them to the point if they aim for the top job, they are comfortable in even the most conservative environment.
2. Teachers who have to backing of a strong principal to innovate for their particular group of kids. They teach basic curriculum and skills, set clear standards, keep parents and guardians apprised of progress. They keep their political agenda out of the classroom. In my opinion, we need basic skills like reading, writing, and math first. Whether some one is going through some identity crisis of some sort is best handled through private counseling and therapy. Whether you are straight or gay is too much information, but I am old school. I'm not asking, so please don't tell me.
3. Parent Involvement is the next ingredient and that is key. Turn off, the tv, texting, ipod and do certain things like monitor homework to see that it is completed. Many libraries are open on weekends, weekly or every couple of weeks actually take the kids to the library. I know that many families have crazy schedules, but studies have shown that actually eating a meal together like dinner or breakfast on a regular basis helps family members to connect or find out what is going on in each others lives. Some families are very clear about the type and amount of tv that their children can watch. Similarly, using a computer with certain lock features is key.
Kids will hate you, but monitor their friends, know who and what their peer group is up to. Try to meet the parents as the movie trailer says. If your child is impressionable, their peer group can have a stronger effect than a good family and value system and make put the child in the wrong place at the wrong time.
All elements must be in place for most children to have a good outcome. Some kids are resilient and could be raised by Rasputin and still come out fine. Most aren't.
Posted by: WVH on March 8, 2008 12:15 PMAgain, you are talking about older kids.
And homework really has no place in the early elementary grades. Homework should only be given once the child knows how to do homework. But this is typically not what we are seeing, even at the lower elementary levels. Instead we see mom and dad having to teach the kid how to do his homework. Homework should not be relied upon to teach the students. Homework supposed to be practice of a skill already taught at school -- and key here: learned by the child while at school.
If young children under the age of ten are putting in a full day of learning and practicing, they should not require any homework to in order to meet learning requirements.
Contrary to popular belief, we are not expecting enough out of our school systems. There is no excuse for the vast majority of children, irrespective of their SES, not learning how to read at the third grade level by the end of third grade.
And living close to libraries and being read aloud to also does nothing to teach kids how to read -- another popular liberal, feel-good, blame it on the parents, myth.
Posted by: School Marm on March 8, 2008 01:37 PMSo let's just agree to disagree.
My dissertation was on the subject of effective schools. Sorry to burst your labeling little bubble.
1. If you look at successful kids they often put in more time than the school day. Why do you think many upper class and middle income parents who struggle pay for Sylvan and Kumon? It is called extending the school day. So, you can pay now or pay later. If you don't want to pay for Kumon and Sylvan or can't, then you put in the time. Regarding the comment that kids got all their education during the school day. I seem to remember my folks taking me different places like theater and museums, that was simply learning outside the classroom. Studies show that parents will have to put in time either reading, conversing, or other activities, If you chose to dispute studies, go ahead. Your cites for your opinions are?
2. I just love people who label without having a clue what they are talking about, is your next comment I am an "empty suit?" You said:
"Contrary to popular belief, we are not expecting enough out of our school systems. There is no excuse for the vast majority of children, irrespective of their SES, not learning how to read at the third grade level by the end of third grade.
And living close to libraries and being read aloud to also does nothing to teach kids how to read -- another popular liberal, feel-good, blame it on the parents, myth."
a. Whose popular belief says we are not expecting enough out of school systems, yours? Guess you haven't been listening to Bill Gates, Steve Balmer and a chorus of others, have you?
b. Regarding parents reading to children:
This is a five second google search:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 5,900,000 for effect of parents reading to children. (0.26 seconds)
Reading Is Fundamental | Parents | Reading AloudReading aloud helps your children develop the language skills that they will use in school and ... Kid Reading Icon Parents Choice: Read Aloud Together List ...
www.rif.org/parents/readingaloud/default.mspx -
[DOC] The Importance of Parental Involvement in their Children's ...File Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
Early reading experiences with their parents prepare children for the benefits ... Although parental involvement has the greatest effect in the early years, ...
www.literacytrust.org.uk/familyreading/ParentalInvolvement.doc
Advice for families on reading with childrenDepartment for children,schools and families The Family Reading Campaign is ... Parents are their child's first educator so parents and families have an ...
www.literacytrust.org.uk/familyreading/parents/index.html
Parents Reading with Their Children: Effects on Reading Ability.ED395283 - Parents Reading with Their Children: Effects on Reading Ability.
www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/recordDetail?accno=ED395283
Caring for kids: A parent's guide to promoting reading in childrenTry not to interrupt unless the mistakes will affect a child's ability to understand the ... If children see their parents and family members reading books, ...
www.caringforkids.cps.ca/behaviour/Reading2Kids.htm
Put Reading First -- Parent GuidePut Reading First. Helping Your Child Learn to Read. A Parent Guide Preschool Through Grade 3. Success in school starts with reading. When children become ...
www.nifl.gov/partnershipforreading/publications/reading_first2.html
The Effect of Family Literacy Interventions On Children's ...There seems to be evidence that shared book reading as well as listening to children read are two parent-child activities that can have positive effects. ...
www.nifl.gov/partnershipforreading/publications/html/lit_interventions/index.html -
NEA: Help for Parents - NEAReading aloud to children is the most important activity that parents can do to ... begins in a child's educational process, the more powerful the effects. ...
www.nea.org/parents/
ALA | Recommended ReadingOne key to children's reading success is making their reading experience ... Classics" ALSC created this list of classics that parents and children can read ...
www.ala.org/ala/alsc/alscresources/summerreading/recsummerreading/recommendedreading.cfm
Reading Rockets : Reading Comprehension & Language Arts Teaching ...On Read Across America Day, Parents Spread the Word About Reading The Post-Crescent (WI) ... Learning to write well helps children to be better readers. ...
www.readingrockets.org/
©2008 Google - Google Home - - Business Solutions - About Google
I don't even want to list the academic journals.
Seems, like you don't want to be labeled as a lame parent, although you ar more than willing to label others. I tell you the same thing I tell parents of all income levels and flavors, if you aren't prepared to put the time in for your kids, maybe you should make an appointment at Planned Parenthood before the next one. Kids are not accessories to your life and if the situation where you are placed doesn't meet their needs, guess what, girlfriend, you just have to step up to the plate.
But if you know more about this particular school, I would love to hear from you by email.
Posted by: Jim Miller on March 8, 2008 02:57 PM