January 31, 2008
McDermott Pays Debt to Society, erm, Boehner

As reported at CQ Politics, Congressman Jim McDermott (D-WA) -- a Sound Politics favorite -- has paid $64,169 in punitive and statutory damages (plus interest) to Congressman John Boehner (R-OH, and now minority leader) for having leaked an illegally wiretapped conversation.

More payments could be coming, perhaps more than $850,000, as McDermott also has to pay Boehner's legal fees.

UPDATE: Sheepishly corrected Boehner's party affiliation.

Posted by pudge at January 31, 2008 09:28 AM | Email This
Comments
1. SWEET JUSTICE...indeed! :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 31, 2008 09:38 AM
2. Soak Baghdad Jim for every red cent the fellow has.
I'd encourage some kind of jail time for this offense if I didn't think that McDermott would enjoy that entirely too much....Got SOAP??!!

Posted by: Rick D. on January 31, 2008 09:42 AM
3. D-OH?

Posted by: Bob on January 31, 2008 09:45 AM
4. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Posted by: Chuck Berlemann on January 31, 2008 10:11 AM
5. I invite all Seattle/King County area Republicans and conservatives to join my efforts to get rid of the embarrassment of Jim McDermott.

In my 2006 campaign against McDermott, I debated the far left Democrat congressman three times, received extensive media coverage, and created enthusiasm among grassroots Republican and conservative activists. I'm likely to run again in 2008, and if I do run my campaign will be committed to supporting our troops, reduced government spending, stopping illegal immigration, social conservatism, and promoting a positive moral vision of America's future.

For more information, go to www.berenforcongress.com and www.steveberen.com (donations are always welcome!).

Also, last fall, Rico Halo of ThatPoliticalBlog.com interviewed me on the war against Islamic terrorism, stopping illegal immigration, moral values, global warming, and the 2008 elections. Part 1 of that interview is available online at http://tinyurl.com/yvjqco

Posted by: Steve Beren on January 31, 2008 10:13 AM
6. Too bad it doesn't drive him into bankruptcy.

Posted by: Norm on January 31, 2008 10:31 AM
7. Steve @ 6
Sadly enough, it probably won't make any difference. If McDermott were caught trafficking drugs and pornography, the barking mad liberal loonies would still vote for him as long as (D) was next to his name

Posted by: ronin on January 31, 2008 11:46 AM
8. Ronin, you're spot on. The left is all worried about flags comming up on calling terrorists and scream about the Patriot act. Meanwhile, ole Jim gets away with distributing the actual recording of a phone call.
Hey Pudge, did the perps with the recorder get any fines or penalties?

Posted by: PC on January 31, 2008 12:00 PM
9. McDermott will be punished in his next election. He will probably receive less than 70% of the vote.

That'll show him.

Posted by: SouthernRoots on January 31, 2008 12:03 PM
10. Someone needs to investigate where McDermott is getting the money to pay off this judgment?
Is he receiving illegal contributions?
Is he paying Income Tax on whatever "contributions" he accepts???
Remember, McDimwit feels we need lots & lots of rules for everyone BUT HIM!
Where is the money coming from??

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on January 31, 2008 01:35 PM
11. Hmmmmm...could it be Baghdad?...thought he was their tourism director. :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 31, 2008 01:40 PM
12. #10 I read in the news some time ago that his supporters were holding a fund raiser to help him pay off his legal fees. It's just like the left to cough up huge bucks to help bail out one of their scumbags. Seems to me that this ought to be considered some form of aiding and abetting, but then I am just dreaming.

Posted by: NW Denizen on January 31, 2008 01:44 PM
13. pudge, Boehner is an R, not a D. Obviously you know that, but it's marked wrong on your post...

Posted by: David Hoffman on January 31, 2008 01:53 PM
14. David, I don't know what's funnier, that I messed that up, or that you are the first to catch it! :-) Thanks.

Posted by: pudge on January 31, 2008 01:58 PM
15. No worries man. And actually I have to point out that Bob @ 3 caught it earlier, but hey, who's keeping track? :)

Posted by: David Hoffman on January 31, 2008 02:03 PM
16. Now, is that pronounced 'Bow-ner' or 'Bay-ner'?

Posted by: Duffman on January 31, 2008 02:11 PM
17. off-topic, but:
pudge/eric/don: why is it that we can't respond to Stefan's posts?

Posted by: Duffman on January 31, 2008 02:22 PM
18. Duffman, come on. Stefan isn't allowing comments because he'd know what they'd be. This is his blog...and he's decided for him, it's not about conversation, discussion, sharing of ideas. It's about proseltyzing his beliefs with no room, no ability, no desire for debate.

How awful would it be if this view were typical of US politicians in charge?

All the more reason to consider Stefan's posits with signficant skepticism. Any idea, belief that can't stand the light of democratic discussion is suspect at its core.

Rommney? No thanks.

Posted by: Bill Anderson on January 31, 2008 02:39 PM
19. Now, is that pronounced 'Bow-ner' or 'Bay-ner'?

I believe it's the latter :)

Like JJ Putz (he pronounces it Pootz), the phoenetic pronunciation isn't exactly ideal.

Posted by: Palouse on January 31, 2008 02:49 PM
20. Oh heh, I misinterpreted Bob @ 3. I read it as Homer Simpson's exclamation, "D'oh!"

And yes, Bay-ner.

Posted by: pudge on January 31, 2008 02:51 PM
21. Thank you Palouse...you wouldn't happen to know the answer to my other question on why we can't respond to Shark...would you?

Posted by: Duffman on January 31, 2008 02:53 PM
22. I don't have any inside info or anything, but my guess is that it's part of the "break".

Posted by: Palouse on January 31, 2008 03:09 PM
23. Yeah... good to have him kinda-sorta back, but monitoring comments is time-consuming, so that's a good assumption.

Posted by: TB on January 31, 2008 03:17 PM
24. According to the Associated Press:

full report at http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i2iq-WpmHNvRKBX2M881UiIl_Q0wD8UH5CLO0

The exact amount McDermott owes in the case is the subject of a separate legal dispute being heard in federal court. A ruling on the fees is expected in the next few weeks.

Kevin Smith, a spokesman for Boehner, called it ironic that the payment from McDermott's legal defense fund will go to Boehner's campaign account.

"Mr. McDermott is the biggest contributor" to the account, known as "Friends of John Boehner," Smith said Thursday.

The money "will be used to defeat fellow Democrats of Mr. McDermott," he said.

Mike DeCesare, a spokesman for McDermott, called the payment a sign of "the process moving along," adding that McDermott hopes to get the matter behind him and move on to other issues.

A report filed with the House clerk shows McDermott's legal expense trust fund took in about $56,000 in the final three months of 2007, for a full-year total of just over $100,000.

Posted by: Steve Beren on January 31, 2008 03:43 PM
25. That's one EXPENSIVE intrusion of privacy.

GOOD FOR BOEHNER for dogging McDermott on this to the very end.

Posted by: Michele on January 31, 2008 04:40 PM
26. One more detail about this case that has fascinated m from the beginning: The conversation that the two activists recorded illegally and passed on McDermott, who gave it to the New York Times, was innocuous.

But all involved in the crimes, including a New York Times reporter who was -- correctly -- given a vulgar name by then candidate Bush, thought the Republicans leaders were plotting something awful. Even though much of the conversation was about how to follow the agreement.

But that's our McDermott. He trusted Saddam and hates Bush and other Republicans so much that he can't see them clearly.

Posted by: Jim Miller on January 31, 2008 05:01 PM
27. It is good to have hime back, he's resting up for the next November Election boondoggle in the Kan't County Erections department!

Posted by: GS on January 31, 2008 06:49 PM
28. Good to see justice done, but its not over until he pays back every bit of it. When are he and Sean Penn going to visit their buddy Chavez ?

Posted by: KS on January 31, 2008 08:11 PM
29. #10 hit it on the target. Where is the money comming from....and that scumbag should have to report it on his federal income taxes as income. It will be interesting if the IRS investigates this matter. It would be nice that if he fails to report it as income, he'd then be filing false returns...jail time could be in the future. Lets hope so.

Posted by: Allan Rothlisberg on February 1, 2008 07:48 AM
30. Why is it when R's are shamed they are forced out of congress, i.e. Newt, Livingston, etc. and BD Jim doesn't even consider doing the "honorable" thing and just retire?

Posted by: Tom Shepherd on February 1, 2008 09:25 AM
31. I guess all the republicans in this forum would have appreciated being lied to and like underhanded unethical tactics so long as no one knows about them. I guess it is best to stick your head in the sand and then kick the person who pulled it out of the dirt so you could see sunlight. It is kind of like that good ole boy mentality. No ethics, just group think and group protection.

Personally, if a democrat, republican, unaffiliated, or independent politician was making unethical devious decisions to manipulate the public perception of unethical behaviour for political purposes after being explicitly told not to, I think we should know about it. All McDermott did was show how underhanded Boehner was. Knowing that the ethics committee is broken (don't think so? Ask the numerous Pages who were preyed on by Craig and Foley, etc. - swept under the carpet by your favorite pals in office) I would have appluaded McDermott's behavior even if the Boehner was a Democrat.

Posted by: Kim on February 1, 2008 02:59 PM
32. Also...I love the irony of the name vs the comments. The comments are full of hate and are anything BUT "sound".

Wha! I hope he goes to jail! boo hoo I hope the IRS get him Wha! The poo poo showed me what a jerk Boehner is and I want him gone! Boo! hoo! I wish my head was back in the sand - that darn McDermott! How dare he show me how unethical my leaders are. He should be out so that my unethical leaders will be able to lead me right where I want to be - in the dark. Wha!

Posted by: Kim on February 1, 2008 03:22 PM
33. Kim: wow. You lecture anyone on ethics, while excusing the purely illegal behavior of McDermott, and misrepresenting what was in the phone call?

Contrary to what McDermott's press office dishonestly says, there was no "mandate" from the Ethics Committee for Gingrich to not have such a conversation. There was nothing underhanded here. There was nothing incriminating in the phone call.

And even if there was, there is no justification for breaking the law.

Your "logic" here is terrible: you honestly want us to believe that it is OK to break the law in order to uncover some people engaging in a perfectly legal conversation. On no level does this make sense, unless you're an anarchist.

Gingrich, Boehner, and the rest broke no law. McDermott did. And you want to blame everyone BUT McDermott.

You are the one who is guilty of "no ethics, just group think and group protection."

Posted by: pudge on February 1, 2008 03:23 PM
34. I find it fascinating that a public official, discussing public policy with other public officials, has a right to privacy. (So much for concern about honest and open government. It's not a conservative ideal, I guess.) Plus, you really should think twice about allowing a powerful government official use the courts to punish critics. Or do you trust in the decency of a President H. R. Clinton?

As usual, it's impossible to tell whether Jim Miller & pudge are lying or just ignorant. Rep. Boehner and his fellows were discussing how to help their then-leader, Rep. Gingrich, swindle the Ethics Committee. McDermott broke no law, as anyone who knew anything about this matter would know. Boehner, on the other hand:

As a member of the former House leadership, Rep. Boehner is likely under federal investigation for taking Jack Abramoff's bribes. The money McDermott pays Boehner would then go to Boehner's felony defense fund. His fellow Republican, Robert Ney of Ohio, defended himself until his own money ran out. Then he miserably pleaded guilty to bribery, and the judge in the case forced him to admit to every shameful breach of our trust. Get used to that pattern; you'll be seeing much more of it.

Meanwhile, to clear up any confusion, Seattle is a very wealthy city, and we love our congressman. Paying money to the likes of Boehner may hurt a bit, but we'd rather do that than allow Boehner to silence any of his richly-earned criticism. If Boehner did take Abramoff's bribes, then McDermott's money will only prolong Boehner's agony. Is that what you wanted?

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2008 11:14 AM
35. tensor: nonsense. Of course you have some right to privacy when discussing public policy. You obviously have never really studied Government in Sunshine laws, and philosophy of same, significantly.

And you are lying when you say this is about "using the courts to punish critics." It is about using the courts to punish lawbreaking.

McDermott broke the law. You are the one who is lying, or ignorant. What McDermott did is illegal, and the courts ruled it that way (in the words of the U.S. District Court judge, he "participated in an illegal transaction when he accepted the tape"). No one else (except the people who recorded the tape, of course) broke any laws.

You can't spin this. He broke the law. Boehner and Gingrich and all the other Republicans didn't.

Love your Congressman all you want. But don't lie for him.

Posted by: pudge on February 2, 2008 11:31 AM
36. Having read Lee "Thehim"'s various takedowns of you, pudge, I don't really expect you to understand anything about this matter, but here goes.

"It is about using the courts to punish lawbreaking."

Cite the federal statute he violated, the court in which he was indicted, and the jury's verdict of his guilt. You can't, because none of those things ever happened. This was a civil case; the grand jury investigating the criminal case disbanded in the 1990s. If you don't understand the difference between civil and criminal law in this country, you probably can't understand anything else about this matter, either. (The opinion of a judge in a civil case does not carry the weight of a jury verdict in a criminal case, as almost 1,000 years of Anglo-American legal tradition hold. 'Tis pity you know nothing about that.)

I know you guys hate McDermott, and therefore love Boehner's abuse of the legal system to hurt his critic. Please keep right on defending Gingich, who still holds the record for paying the largest ethics fine in the history of our Speakership; it shows your morals plainly. You are endorsing the use of the courts to punish criticism of the powerful, a position you will instantly abandon should any Democrat ever use it. Have fun hiding from President Clinton next year.

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2008 12:39 PM
37. BTW, Rep. Boehner was recently on television, arguing that telecom companies who broke actual federal privacy laws should not be sued for it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301632,00.html

"And because they did voluntarily, I believe that they deserve immunity from lawsuits out there from typical trial lawyers trying to find a way to get into the pockets of the American companies."

He's referring to telecom companies, entities which violated the privacy rights of their own customers because the Bush Administration asked them to. They broke the law, and they don't want to pay for it in court. And your great man of privacy protection wants to help them get away with it.

I'm so glad my hero is Jim McDermott, not John Boehner.


Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2008 01:26 PM
38. tensor:

Please stop being retarded. I never said he was convicted. I merely stated the facts that he broke the law, and that a judge held that he broke the law. You cannot argue against those facts, no matter how much you try. You just end up looking as stupid as thehim.

Posted by: pudge on February 2, 2008 02:11 PM
39. pudge, the only way to determine that someone broke the law is to have a trial by jury. That's been a defining characteristic of our legal system since 1215. Your opinion, or a civil judge's opinion, counts for absolutely nothing.

Now that Rep. Boehner has come out for telecom immunity, we know his case was about punishing a critic, and nothing else. You've implicitly endorsed his abuse of the courts, so don't come crying to us liberals if your phone company secretly recorded your conversations; your hero Boehner has reserved privacy as a privilege to be bought with payments to trial lawyers, not the right of an American. You must be so proud.

Posted by: Tensor on February 2, 2008 09:55 PM
40. p.s. pudge: thanks for the comparison to Thehim; I appreciate the compliment.

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2008 10:00 PM
41. Tensor, no, you're wrong. The only way we can hold someone criminally liable for breaking the law is to have a trial by jury. However, we do not need such a thing for a logical determination. Your wanking about the Magna Carta is irrelevant here.

The facts are not in question. The law is not in question. McDermott, through his actions, broke the law. His defense wasn't even "I didn't break the law" but that he had a First Amendment right to break the law. It's called an affirmative defense. McDermott even ADMITTED he violated the law. As the circuit court ruling said in 1999: "At oral argument, McDermott conceded that, on the facts alleged in the complaint, his delivery of the tapes to the newspapers brought him within  2511(1)(c)'s prohibition against anyone who 'intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose' the contents of an illegally intercepted communication."

However, he argued that "2511(1)(c), as applied to him, violated the free speech clause of the First Amendment." So, again, he admitted he broke the law, but claimed that he had a right to break the law.

You're wrong: he broke the law. HE EVEN ADMITTED IT.

Posted by: pudge on February 2, 2008 10:23 PM
42. "The only way we can hold someone criminally liable for breaking the law is to have a trial by jury."

Glad I was able to educate you on that. Thehim may be jealous.

"Your wanking about the Magna Carta is irrelevant here."

You've heard of it! Now note that your two sentences contradict each other. Since McDermott was never tried by a jury, he cannot be guilty of anything. You can still call him guilty all that you want, of course; you used to have a First Amendment right to make criticisms of political leaders, and I doubt McDermott will bother using his newly-minted power of the courts to punish you. (He has important work to do in the Congress, after all.)

By the way, YOU have 'intentionally disclose[d]' the contents of the tape (although your recounting of the conversation contained therein is so wrong as to be risibly worthless). You're as 'guilty' as McDermott, and Boehner -- who, by his own admission, cares absolutely nothing for telecom privacy -- can sue you. Better keep your criticisms of the powerful confined to targets who lack your man Boehner's intolerant vindictiveness.

Posted by: tensor on February 2, 2008 11:19 PM
43. note that your two sentences contradict each other.

False.

Since McDermott was never tried by a jury, he cannot be guilty of anything.

False. He merely isn't found guilty by a court. That is a different thing from actually being guilty of breaking the law ... as he admitted he is.

You're not very good at this.

Posted by: pudge on February 2, 2008 11:54 PM
44. So, President Bush is guilty of violating FISA? He's admitted to it. That's a felony, and he belongs in jail. Somehow I think you'd insist on a jury trial first.

You can keep moaning about McDermott's 'guilt' all you want; servicing hatred is all the modern right-wing movement ever does anymore. We'll pay Boehner's legal defense fund, but the outcome is irrelevant: Having never been convicted of anything, McDermott stays in Congress, as a member of the majority party, and Boehner, when not facing criminal charges, will remain a member of a small and dwindling minority. All Boehner has done is set a very bad precedent, where a powerful government official can punish a critic for telling the truth about his unethical actions. That you've implicitly endorsed such vindictive punishment shows just how far our modern right-wing movement has slithered from American concepts of justice.

Posted by: tensor on February 3, 2008 09:09 AM
45. tensor: So, President Bush is guilty of violating FISA? He's admitted to it. That's a felony, and he belongs in jail. Somehow I think you'd insist on a jury trial first.

You are wrong on several levels, as I have come to expect.

First, no, Bush never admitted violating FISA. You are lying.

Second -- and why you keep getting this incorrectly I can't fathom -- there's a difference between saying someone violated the law, and saying they have been found guilty in court and therefore being criminally liable. You keep acting like the two are the same. They aren't. Please try to understand this fact.

Third, building off the last point, a law that is illegal (or illegal to apply in a given context) may legally be violated. This is the case that McDermott tried, and failed, to make, and it is one of the several defenses Bush could use.

Fourth, even if Bush did violate the FISA and any affirmative defense he has isn't recognized, that doesn't mean he should be "in jail," any more than Clinton should be in jail for his similar violations, or any other President for theirs.

Fifth, I have ALWAYS maintained since the wiretapping claims first surfaced that Bush's actions probably DID violate FISA and have no justifiable affirmative defense. So your argument here has no bearing on me anyway. I am unsure, because the legal precedents on Bush's side (including a ruling by the FISA Court of Review itself, not to mention many actions by past Presidents) are strong, but the bottom line is that I can find no justification in the Constitution for it.

Sixth, no jury trial is necessary; what IS necessary is a SCOTUS ruling. This is a legal dipsute between the Congress and President, about proper interpretation of the prevailing law and the Constitution. The only body that can resolve that legal dispute is the SCOTUS.

Seventh, and finally, even if I was right all along and Bush was wrong and broke the law, it does not follow that Bush should be in jail, any more than it follows that McDermott should be in jail for breaking the law. I am not saying he should be in jail. I am simply stating absolute and unquestionable facts: he broke the law, Boehner and Gingrich did not break the law, and you and the left are defending him.


You can keep moaning about McDermott's 'guilt' all you want

You're lying again: you are the one who brought up 'guilt.'


servicing hatred is all the modern right-wing movement ever does anymore

Shrug. That's all YOU are doing.


We'll pay Boehner's legal defense fund, but the outcome is irrelevant: Having never been convicted of anything, McDermott stays in Congress, as a member of the majority party, and Boehner, when not facing criminal charges, will remain a member of a small and dwindling minority.

So why are you bitching?


All Boehner has done is set a very bad precedent, where a powerful government official can punish a critic for telling the truth about his unethical actions.

You're lying again, of course. And again, doing it on multiple levels:

First, Boehner did nothing that was unethical. Period. If anyone did anything unethical (other than, obviously, McDermott), it was only Gingrich, since the agreement to not organize a response was only binding on Gingrich, not anyone else.

Second, McDermott was not punished for telling the truth, but for breaking the law.


That you've implicitly endorsed such vindictive punishment shows just how far our modern right-wing movement has slithered from American concepts of justice.

That you reframe punishing a lawbreaker as punishing a "hero," and dishonestly call Boehner's perfectly legitimate actions "unethical," shows just how far the modern "progressive" movement has slid backward to its crypto-fascist roots, a la Henry Wallace.

Posted by: pudge on February 3, 2008 09:47 AM
46. "First, Boehner did nothing that was unethical. Period. If anyone did anything unethical (other than, obviously, McDermott), it was only Gingrich, since the agreement to not organize a response was only binding on Gingrich, not anyone else."

Gingrich's agreement with the ethics committee prevented him from organizing a public response to their fining him for his blatantly unethical conduct. (They allowed him merely to pay the largest ethics fine in the history of the Speakership, when they had standing to remove him from the Speakership.) The very existence of this telephone call violated the spirit of that agreement, and the actual conversation violated the letter of it.
McDermott, as a member of the swindled ethics committee, had a moral obligation to expose this wrongdoing when evidence of it was handed to him.

"Second, McDermott was not punished for telling the truth, but for breaking the law."

You poor fool. Boehner has already admitted he wants immunity for the real perpetrators of exactly such acts of lawbreaking, and he's pushing legislation in our House to prevent anyone else from doing as Boehner did to McDermott. Boehner's lawsuit was to punish his critic, for exposing Boehner's eager violation of our House's ethical standards. If a telephone company recorded your private conversations, Boehner wants that company to have immunity from your lawsuit. I'll give you a little tip here: outside of the stagnant, narrow depths of modern Republicanism, "do as I say, not as I do," is not recognized as the highest of all possible moral principles.

'That you reframe punishing a lawbreaker as punishing a "hero," and dishonestly call Boehner's perfectly legitimate actions "unethical," shows just how far the modern "progressive" movement has slid backward to its crypto-fascist roots, a la Henry Wallace.'

Been up late, reading on-line excerpts of Jonah Goldberg's magdumb doughpuss, have we? You really, really, really don't want to introduce such terms into our civil discourse, trust me. One constant characteristic of fascists is their endless pronouncements of their own moral purity, whilst engaging in the filthiest of acts themselves. Kinda like Larry Craig, Newt Gingrich, Mark Foley, Henry Hyde, Strom Thurmond, Rev. Haggard, etc. -- the Republican list is endless.

Well, my tonsils are no longer the size of golf balls, so it's time for me to get some fresh air. I have to decide how much money I want to contribute to Bohener's felony defense fund. Any suggestions? He really doesn't want to go to jail, so aim high!

Posted by: tensor on February 3, 2008 11:05 AM
47. The very existence of this telephone call violated the spirit of that agreement, and the actual conversation violated the letter of it.

Regardless of how accurate this statement is, it has nothing to do with Boehner, who was not subject to that agreement.


Boehner's lawsuit was to punish his critic for exposing Boehner's eager violation of our House's ethical standards

Boehner violated no ethical rules/standards. You are lying.


I'll give you a little tip here: outside of the stagnant, narrow depths of modern Republicanism, "do as I say, not as I do," is not recognized as the highest of all possible moral principles.

I'll give you a tip: bringing that up as an argument in favor of McDermott is the "tu quoque" logical fallacy. I am not here to defend Rep. Boehner (whom I would have voted against to be minority leader). I am here to state the facts: Boehner did nothing wrong whatsoever in this episode, and McDermott broke the law.


Been up late, reading on-line excerpts of Jonah Goldberg's magdumb doughpuss, have we?

Nope. Never read it. Don't know much about it, and nothing he's written there has had any impact on anything I've thought or said on the matter.


You really, really, really don't want to introduce such terms into our civil discourse, trust me.

You say this as though you either have truth on your side, or that you are somehow superior to me in rhetorical skills. You're wrong on both counts.


One constant characteristic of fascists is their endless pronouncements of their own moral purity, whilst engaging in the filthiest of acts themselves

If you are trying to show that progressivism is not littered with fascists and fascist tendencies, this is not the argument to use, since that is one of the most obvious characteristics of progressivism: proclaiming some high moral purity and then doing the worst thing you can do in a democracy -- destroy someone's liberty -- in order to enforce it.

It is clearly the progressives who want to control us the most, who have the most fascist tendencies. Think "universal health care." That's fascism in its purest form. You even have textbook propaganda to go along with it: the "us" versus "them," an immoral act (theft) presented as a moral imperative, and so on.


Kinda like Larry Craig, Newt Gingrich, Mark Foley, Henry Hyde, Strom Thurmond, Rev. Haggard, etc. -- the Republican list is endless.

As is the Democratic list: Obama, both Clintons, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy ...

(Note also that Clinton was found by a court to do something worse than what Gingrich did: Gingrich was found to have, in essence, lied to the ethics committee, while Clinton was found to have, in essence, lied to the court. Neither was found to have done anything else wrong, and lying to a court is far worse than lying to the ethics committee. Just giving you some much-needed perspective here.)

Posted by: pudge on February 3, 2008 11:40 AM
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