January 24, 2008
Boring

That's your one word summary of the GOP debate in Florida. With John McCain and Mitt Romney edging out front in a tight Sunshine State race and with time running out on Rudy Giuliani's candidacy, the forum was remarkably tame. The candidates looked visibly tired after grueling weeks on the trail, plus no one probably wanted to stain themselves with the kind of spat Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had at the last Democratic gathering.

If there was any confusion about the subdued tone, the candidates opportunity to question each other revealed all: no one asked questions of the candidate with whom they are competing most closely. Romney asked Giuliani about competing economically with China. McCain asked Mike Huckabee about the Fair Tax. Giuliani asked Romney - not McCain - about the national catastrophic fund. Only Huckabee deviated from script, continuing his quest to be McCain's VP by asking Romney about the 2nd Amendment.

In the end, I'm not sure if anyone moved the needle a lot tonight, though perhaps I'm jaded by debate-fatigue at this juncture in the primary season. McCain will be hounded a bit about his "I don't understand economics very well" quote that he feigned ignorance on to Tim Russert, since both the Giuliani and Romney campaigns promptly emailed out two citations where McCain said essentially that. He may also have not been well served in a closed Republican primary by dwelling on global warming and his related work with Joe Lieberman, though that's hardly new information to GOP voters. Either way, McCain will be asked more tomorrow about his mother's admission that he has problems with the Republican base. Brian Williams queried him on it, but the quotes are just too juicy for reporters to lay off of in the next 24-48 hours.

All that said, I think Romney and McCain did the best. Both men made their points, though Romney at least twice took what was supposed to be a tough question and turned it into a mini-stump speech. Giuliani did ok, but that's not enough right now. Huckabee too was just ok. Not quite his usual jovial self and not engaged by the moderators as much as Romney, McCain, and Giuliani. Speaking of the moderators, I thought the last half-hour was too Romney centric. He did well, but it seemed unfair to the other candidates.

Funny note of the debate (at least for Republicans): Brian Williams seemed to think the New York Times endorsing McCain is bad for Giuliani. Not only did Giuliani answer that well, taking it as a badge of honor for disagreeing with that editorial board so often as Mayor, but someone needs to tell Williams this is an endorsement no Republican wants to trumpet.

The only other point I'd make is that while Romney and McCain both did well, Romney gets a slight advantage because the economy was such a focus at the start. McCain did better tonight on the topic than he's done on the trail the last few weeks, but it's still not a strong point for him by comparison.

What do you think?

Posted by Eric Earling at January 24, 2008 08:00 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Romney the outsider taking money from the De Jure monoplies,and supporting the war just like a Washington insider.What policy is he going to change?

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 07:55 PM
2. Romney did fine, except for that catastrophic fund stuff.

Us conservatives who are trying to decide between McCain and Romney, now that Thompson is gone, will not be swayed to Romney by such things.

Yesterday I was slightly more on Romney's side. Now I am back to being slightly more on McCain's side.

Posted by: pudge on January 24, 2008 08:32 PM
3. speaking of the economy, why do people who don't pay income tax need a tax rebate??? Last time I heard you had to expend money to receive a rebate. These folks did not.

Someone had to say it.

Posted by: Michele on January 24, 2008 09:01 PM
4. Romney the "outsider" will fix a broken Washington by doing everything an insider would do.
What is Romney saying he will do differently than the current Washington "Insiders"
Somebody had to ask it.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 09:19 PM
5. Michele: they need a tax rebate because it's the only way the Democrats would agree to won!

Although, in fairness, most of them they do pay money in taxes, for the payroll tax. But yes, it is not income tax, even though it is a tax, and it is on your income. I don't find much fault with people who don't easily see the difference.

Posted by: pudge on January 24, 2008 09:20 PM
6. Boring?
Naah.

The rest of the world loves listening to candidates who can say "nu-cle-ar."

Posted by: Willard's the one on January 24, 2008 09:20 PM
7. McCain will be less likely to be a hard line in the sand,But he is a contradiction when he says he will be a fiscal conservative.I Finally got my Brother the College gradute to acknowledge that you cant say you are a fiscal conservative spending trillions in Iraq.There is only one true fiscal conservative on the stage and that is Ron Paul.I just wish he where more of a leader of men.
Romney Now says we pay for the war,and Catastrophy fund in addition to FEMA while being a fiscal conservative.That just doesn't add up.
Holy cow these guys are imposters.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 09:36 PM
8. I didn't think it was boring! I loved it when Ron Paul asked McCain what he would do about an economic issue, and McCain totally punted. He said he has a group of advisors for that. We're talking about the economy! This is fast becoming the number one issue, and McCain punted on national television! It just proves he is clueless about economics, which is why he often supports liberal spending and tax positions. It was as bad as in the prior debate, when Romney needed to consult his lawyers about what was in the Constitution.

Ron Paul tackled the third rail of politics: social security. He wants to let the young out of it, because it won't be around when they retire anyway. It will be bankrupt within 20 years. He wants to maintain the benefits of the elderly by cutting spending on US military bases in S. Korea, Japan, Germany and elsewhere. He wants to make social security income tax-free. This is great! It is workable, it doesn't leave any of the elderly out in the cold, and it moves us to a privatized system that will work better for everyone!

Ron Paul is the best! Even if he doesn't get the nomination, I see more and more candidates adopting his positions.

I'll bet after the nomination, the eventual Republican nominee will adopt even more of Ron Paul's positions. Maybe even his Iraq position! That would be the only way to beat the Democrat in November, given the unpopularity of the war, and Hillary's vulnerability on the issue.

I think Ron Paul won the debate tonight!

By the way, Giuliani will be out of the race soon, and so will Huckabee.

It's between McCain and Romney, now, but Ron Paul will still be in the race at the convention, and his delegates will be in play, and may just tip the balance to decide the winner... Should be exciting!

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on January 24, 2008 09:47 PM
9. How does it stimulate the economy by having the government give money to the citizens when the government has no money to give? Additional borrowing hurts the economy, additional printing of money is going to devalue every dollar already in our pockets.

Why do all the candidates but one promote additional government printing, borrowing, spending and artificially low interest rates as a solution to a problem caused by excessive government printing, borrowing and spending and artificially low interest rates?

Why is the one candidate that would fix the economy given roughly 1/2 the time of huckabee and nearly 1/4 of the time of McCain in the debate? Why is this candidate that understand the problems our economy has considered unworthy of proper respect by the media (and local bloggers?)

Posted by: Lysander on January 24, 2008 09:53 PM
10. Boring is right. Eric's coverage of this race is boring. Could we please get someone who doesn't have a crush on Mitt Romney to cover this thing?

Posted by: Interested on January 24, 2008 09:53 PM
11. Bruce,
McCain did look like a stick in the mud on that question.He Almost admitted to using a blue ribbon panel of sorts.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 10:00 PM
12. Once again I was happy with the republicans as a whole, they all did really good, even Ron Paul did good half the time. I thought Russert was going to have a cow, he tried really hard to make them look bad but they did great.

McCain probably won because he likely didn't turn off too many Republicans. As for his question to Huckabee, it looked to be set up to make Huckabee look good - maybe to get some fiscal votes away from Romney and towards Huckabee.

Rudy did real good, gave himself a chance anyhow, we'll see if it works.

Romney did good, but his 'successful' dancing around the money issue in the long term could be a problem. I was surprised it was brought up, but if buying the election ends up being equated with Romney, it won't help him.

Huckabee did nothing to make anyone dislike him, if he ends up in a VP slot, sure would be different than Cheney.

A side note, if Hillary and Obama keep after it and Hillary wins the nomination, wouldn't it be wild to get Condi on the VP slot - maybe the first black and woman President would end up being a Republican!

Posted by: Doug on January 24, 2008 10:10 PM
13. January 23, 2008

Why they Hate Mitt Romney
By Amy D. Goldstein

Have you noticed how all of the Republican candidates can barely conceal their contempt for Governor Mitt Romney? It goes way beyond the typical good-natured competition that usually is the hallmark of Republican contests. Senator McCain has snarled at Governor Romney in debates and Gov. Huckabee has tried to paint Romney as cold and uncaring, while Sen. Fred Thompson attacked Governor Romney right out of the box. This display of hatred usually is the hallmark of the Democrats.


So, why do the other candidates hate Mitt Romney? Several reasons:

1. He can win. Governor Romney appeals to economic conservatives and could appeal to foreign policy conservatives based upon his understanding of the issues. Most non-partisan foreign policy wonks who have briefed the major candidates tell me that Romney "gets it" better than any other candidate -- even better than those who have held high profile office for decades. Moreover, he is the candidate that the Democrats most fear.
2. Jealousy -- from his hair to his appearance to his family to his money - these are all reasons for deep seeded, if unseemly, jealousy. This green-eyed monster makes its appearance in almost every speech or presentation, in the form of a joke, a jab or a veiled reference.
3. He isn't beholden to interest groups. Governor Romney's wealth frees him from any influence that interest groups could apply to others - especially those who lack funds or who are Washington insiders. He doesn't need them, and that scares the interest groups and their allies. He is not of the game and wants to change it - and his personal wealth allows him to do so. He really can change Washington.
4. His brains - not only is he one of the smartest people ever to seek the presidency (having earned a Harvard MBA and JD simultaneously), but he understands the complexities of the issues that America faces and is able to devise workable solutions. Just look at his proposal for an economic stimulus and compare it to what the other candidates are proposing. Romney clearly can lead this country through economic challenges.
5. His wealth -- again. While he has raised more than any other candidate, Governor Romney doesn't need to raise the money in order to continue. Nevertheless, he understands that successful candidates must have people invested in their candidacy in order to succeed. He has learned the lessons of past wealthy businessmen who make vanity runs for the White House. The other candidates have to constantly raise money in order to continue their campaigns.
6. His experience. The rest of the Republican field has been in politics in one form or another for most of their adult lives. Governor Romney came to public service after having a successful career in which he directly created jobs, saved jobs, invested in new companies and turned around failed businesses. He even fixed both the Olympics and the failing state of Massachusetts. More than any other candidate, Governor Romney's experience is most directly applicable to the average American's situation.
7. He believes that America's best days are ahead of it, and not a memory. Governor Romney is a man of the future, not of the past. He sees America as a beacon of freedom for the entire world, and not a country limping toward its last days. His infectious optimism is informed by his business experience, his love of country and his family values. His can-do spirit is the antidote to defeatism masked as "straight talk" or "reality."
8. His beliefs. When all else fails, Governor Romney's opponents attack his religion in the hopes of sowing fear and loathing. Not only is this unseemly, but it is dangerous. We have seen this type of rhetoric before - in the 1920's and 1930's - from the likes of Henry Ford and Father Caughlin and others who sought to disenfranchise whole segments of the American population. Governor Romney believes in the common American faith of democracy and religious freedom, as he so eloquently stated in his speech "Faith in America." These are the values our Founding Fathers codified in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Why do the Republican candidates hate him? Because they don't have any answers to his challenges. They seek to undermine him by using personal attacks more worthy of a middle school playground than a presidential contest. This is politics and Washington as usual, and choosing any candidate that employs these tactics will only get us more of the same. One would hope that Americans could see beyond these base attacks and choose the candidate who is best for the country - Governor Mitt Romney.

Amy D. Goldstein is an occasional contributor to American Thinker.


Posted by: HW on January 24, 2008 10:29 PM
14. Lysander,
The R's are trying to buy votes.what I mean about Ron Paul is His message is sound but he lacks the charisma that some people need to follow him.He does not have the Teddy Roosevely Aura that can wave people over the hill.Notice how the others are trying to sound fiscally conservative too while holding on to the war.
I wish we had someone with Ron Paul's policies but delivered with more charisma.I hate to say it like that, But I still think his policies are superior to the imposters that now claim to be fiscal conservative while trillions go out of the country,and now are talking about adding a catastrophy fund on top of FEMA.,which is like adding Homeland security to the State national Guard.I want a fiscal conservative,and I don't really see any other choice for me other than Ron Paul.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 10:32 PM
15. Gosh, HW. You and Amy Goldstein must be hearing different media than I am. Seems to me everyone from Rush Limbaugh to Chris Matthews has nothing but great things to say about Romney.

And nobody hates him. They just don't trust him. For good reason, I might add.

Posted by: Interested on January 24, 2008 10:46 PM
16. Interested said they ?? don't trust him, for good reason that is what?

Posted by: HW on January 24, 2008 10:53 PM
17. Lysander/Travis,

You said:

"Why is this candidate that understand the problems our economy has considered unworthy of proper respect by the media (and local bloggers?)"

1. Aside from his very obvious issue with supremecists, he

2. Has about as much chance of winning as me and Dog.

3. I admire his fundraising prowess and wish suckers would send me money on the Internet, since people sending him money aren't going to get a presidential candidate who can win the office.
I would use the money of you suckers to get Dog into rehab and fund a really lavish lifestyle for myself. So, suckers send your money to me.

Posted by: WVH on January 24, 2008 11:09 PM
18. WVH,
Go get some more cats.
LOL

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 24, 2008 11:28 PM
19. Now Dog,

Are you saying like Sherman:

"If nominated, I will not accept; if drafted, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve."
William Tecumseh Sherman quotes (American Civil War General and a major architect of modern war)

Dude, it is not about running to actually win office. Every president I can remember looks like hell after only a few years in office.

We simply want to fleece these suckers who donate to lame political candidates on the Internet. Heck if we take in only 1% of what Paul does over the course of the campaign season, you have luxury rehab and I have Ferragamo and Jimmy Choo.

Think about it, fleecing these Internet idiots is nothing to be LOL about.

Posted by: WVH on January 24, 2008 11:47 PM
20. In my view, Romney came across as the most 'Presidential' appearing candidate. He's very telegenic and has quick response. He definitely looks the part - straight out of central casting. But, trying to view it as objectively as possible, I did not think that any of the candidates portrayed a sense of 'change', and that's what America wants. Except for 'Paul' (who doesn't have a chance) they all seemed like 'good 'ol boys' - typical belt-way politicians.

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 05:05 AM
21. I see McCain is still stuck on the Global Warming junk. See he really does like taxes after all.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on January 25, 2008 06:31 AM
22. Duffman when you talk about change when it comes to the DEM's ( Hillary) they offer what?
Out of Iraq.
Higher taxes.
Lot's more gov control.
and billy boy playing with the girls.....(LOL)

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on January 25, 2008 06:38 AM
23. Why are all the candidates adopting the global warming junk? No one is willing to stand up and say, "we'll do something, but these latest cold temperatures has me concerned and before I commit, I want to do a detailed analysis. The future of the US economy is at stake and we can't make a mistake."

Yes, indeed, Doug, the 'good' McCain showed up last night as compared to "Butthead" McCain and his Snidely Whiplash chuckle.

I agree with the Libertarian poster here that Ron Paul was outstanding. His slam dunk of the Social Security issue was great. IMO, one of the big failures of SS reform is that the Rs have done a rotten job convincing the older folks that any reform is not on their well-earned retirement.

The wife, who is not so engaged, was absolutely impressed with Romney last night. If the guy had only showed up earlier in the campaign to sell himself like he did last night, the race wouldn't be so muddled.

Huckabee looked like a weak sister to me. His charm, smarminess and wit were as riveting as past debates.

I thought Romney's question to Giuliani was outstanding. And the answer was likewise. It showed to me the adults were back in town as compared to the D field.

Posted by: swatter on January 25, 2008 06:45 AM
24. Yeah AM/V I admit, with Mrs Clinton is more of a 'perceived' change (i.e. being a woman and all) and folks believe she will bring a new perspective to the office. My main reason for supporting her is that I believe the most important thing for our country is health care. I really believe that Mrs Clinton is the one most likely to get this done and have it as her legacy. She takes a beating from many on a variety of issues but still plows ahead. I admire her determination and passion and admitedly it comes down to that subjective 'blind trust' in her. Bill? Well, I really think that after getting caught, and after his heart surgery, etc., et al - he has learned his lesson and can be an incredible diplomat and aide to Mrs Clinton in re-gaining the respect of the world. I know you (& probably most others) on this board fiercly disagree but that's where I'm comin from. :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 06:49 AM
25. But, but, but what about Dr. Paul. Oh here is one of his supporters being given free reign on the Gunny Bob radio show. You have to copy and paste the whole damn thinginto your brouser.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KOA-AM/CBA%201-22%20Angry%20Caller.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=668&STATION_ID=KOA-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Gunny_Bob_Newman&PCAST_CAT=Spoken_Word&PCAST_TITLE=The_Gunny_Bob_Show

Posted by: JDH on January 25, 2008 06:59 AM
26. OOOOOOO duffie, you should know better than thinking the GOV health care is better for us.
Go spend some time at a VA hospital ( as i have)
Yes we have problems, but. The Gov fix will always be worse.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on January 25, 2008 07:35 AM
27. I appreciate that. For those who are 'covered' it's not bad, I agree. Thankfully because my dad retired from the military my mother has very good coverage from DOD, but in comparison (for instance) the coverage afforded to 'congress people' it pales. Don't know if you've ever examined their coverage but it is frickin incredible...EVERYthing's covered! I'd like to see it better equalized across the board. Hopefully with a combination of private/gov't plan that will obviously need a lot of formulation in it's design.

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 08:00 AM
28. Yes I have Duffman. They suck because if we did have Gov health care YOU'LL never get that type of 'free' care! LOL.

I was working as a medic in San Diego back in the 70's when insurance health plans were talking off ( thank you gov)
So for myself I want the whole dang GOV out of health care and yes even some of the insurance comp. If anything is free, watch the waste come pouring thru.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on January 25, 2008 08:17 AM
29. Oh and the Gubmnt is going to send you some "spending money" says the paper this morning. Oh goody, goody.

Posted by: JDH on January 25, 2008 08:27 AM
30. HW,

Yeah "They". As in every single one of us who are concerned about Romney's lack of consistency on anything.

By the way, you and Amy Goldstein are so cute the way you defend a candidate that spends millions of dollars and several months attacking others and then call him a victim of negativity. Sounds like another pair of "Slick" politicians we all know...straight out of their playbook.

Posted by: Interested on January 25, 2008 08:28 AM
31. Some impressions, although I didn't catch the entire debate.

1. I personally liked the portion of the debate where candidates got to ask the other candidates questions. Although I agree each went easy, at least we got into some areas that he media don't seem to ask. The media gets to focused on a couple of areas and questions the candidates to death in these areas trying to create controversy, instead of probing the candidates on a wide range of topics.

2. Some personality traits were demonstrated that candidates need to work on. For Guiliani, he needs to not bare his front teeth in a grimace after the panel moves onto another candidate. Guiliani did it repeatedly and it isn't a pleasant image. I am sure his campaign winced each time he did it. McCain needs to open his mouth more when talking. At times, its like he is trying to throw an ventroliquism act on. Ron Paul needs to not glance right or left at the other candidates when answering the questions. He looked like the nervous interviewing wondering if the others on stage approved of him or not.

3. My favorite question and answer was in the end portion (fluff portion) when Russert (I believe) asked Huckabee about Chuck Norris' quote that McCain was too old and why at the time Huckabee didn't disagree. Huck threw it back with humor and stated it was because Chuck was standing right next to him and when you have someone who could put his opposite foot on your opposite cheek without you being able to do anything about it, you don't disagree. Of course it was a complete blow-off, but Huck does have a way of coming up with these on the spot and it did lighten the mode. Of course, it was a total nonsense question by Russert. Where was Fred to put Russert in line?

4. I do think Romney helped himself in Florida with the debate. When he stays on the change platform and the private experience platform, he does sound a lot more confident. He needs to forgoe is attack ads and focus more on what he can do based on his experience instead of pointing out the nits and nats of the other candidates.

Posted by: tc on January 25, 2008 08:38 AM
32. I thought Romney won the debate last night. I don't think any of the "Big 3" hurt themselves, but that may not be good enough for Giuliani. Giuliani is my second choice after Thompson dropped out, but I'm not sure if he is going to finish strong enough in Florida to pull it off. Hopefully he will, as he said, be like the NY Giants and pull it off. We'll see.

I think Romney is going to win in FL. He seems to have a slight surge in the polls and last night may help him with some of the undecideds. I don't think McCain helped himself by talking about Global Warming, as someone else said.

It will be an interesting finish in Florida...

Posted by: Bill H on January 25, 2008 08:42 AM
33. tc, I agree with your comments. I also noted Giuliani's "grimaces". I'm not sure what that is about--maybe he has a problem with his eyes? I mentioned this to my wife earlier today--it did not make him look "presidential".

Posted by: Bill H on January 25, 2008 08:47 AM
34. Thanks, guys, for getting back on topic. I really like to hear others' impressions.

Like Eric, Michelle Malkin thought it was boring, too.

Posted by: swatter on January 25, 2008 09:01 AM
35. Yeah "They". As in every single one of us who are concerned about Romney's lack of consistency on anything.

Interested, sorry to inform you but they is not us! Unless you are related to "The Clintons".
Interested said,
"By the way, you and Amy Goldstein are so cute the way you defend a candidate that spends millions of dollars and several months attacking others and then call him a victim of negativity. Sounds like another pair of "Slick" politicians we all know...straight out of their playbook.

Interested, sounds like you are trying another "Clinton" attach and divide "commie" tactic.

"they" don't have any answers to his challenges. "They" seek to undermine him by using personal attacks more worthy of a middle school playground than a presidential contest. This is politics and Washington as usual, and choosing any candidate that employs these tactics will only get us more of the same. One would hope that Americans could see beyond these base attacks and choose the candidate who is best for the country - Governor Mitt Romney.

It is obvious you did not hear well so here is a link so you can become more informed.
http://www.mittromney.com/homepage

Check out the "issues" This is what he will do when elected the President of the United States of America.

Regarding his wealth, we are all born equal, Mitt Romney is an obvious achiever.

Posted by: HW on January 25, 2008 09:30 AM
36. Is change simply for change's sake simply to be desired or should there be actual substance? A lot of what is wrong with education is that there has been change simply for change's sake. A real grounding in the basics would have better served most students and this society.

A lot of financial products represented change for change's sake, like derivatives and the current mess with Societe General which may have started this economic uncertainity. That was change for change's sake.

Regarding Billary, a lot of lame women and appartently Duffman think she represents change, really. What is change about sticking with a horndog sex addict who sticks it to you and everyone else around? She stuck with a male who greased the skids for her ascent so she could realize her political ambitions. Even now, Bill is taking care of poor little Hillary's problem by being the attack dog because the guys are being mean to her. Could she have done it on her own, I don't know, apparently she thought she couldn't. How Jane Austen, and that is change, Duffman? A lot of people are voting for her simply because she is a woman, not that she has any particular qualifications other than she was close to power.

On the issue of healthcare, she screwed it up first time around and Congress saved her and us from disaster.

Paul is the only candidate that would have even made me consider voting for her. Now, that he is out, I will vote against her. This is a crucial election and we can't afford eight more years of Billary. Romney is right, we don't even want to consider Bill walking around the house with nothing to do. Truly, lock-up the interns.

Duffman, I know you were gone, but this is the other reason not to vote for Paul, other than he can't win:

Angry White ManThe New Republic Angry White Man by James Kirchick The bigoted past of Ron Paul. Post Date Tuesday, January 08, 2008 ...
www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

Selections From Ron Paul's NewslettersJan 8, 2008 ... The Newsletters: Since at least 1978, Ron Paul has attached his name to a series of newsletters--Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul ...
www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=74978161-f730-43a2-91c3-de262573a129 - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 09:49 AM
37. "..a lot of lame women.."

A pretty broad and unfair statement there WVH; obviously I disagree with you, and you know what - I think most voters will, also. :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 09:56 AM
38. Romney is the one R that could lose to Hillary. She'll be able to run behind the flip-flop scenario, the slick charge, the rich guy thing and the Bible belt is very problematic because of the Mormon label. The world will think she is running against the Mormon church/cult before the campaign is over. If we can't have Paul, then McCain is the only winning ticket for the Rs as far as I can tell.

Posted by: Rocketdog on January 25, 2008 09:56 AM
39. Duffman,

You and I probably talk to lots of people of both sexes. Honestly, how many women have you talked to who say first, I will vote for Hillary because it is either time for a woman president or we want a woman president? Now fess up. I want a woman president as well, but I want one that is fully prepared for the job, not one that will give Dr. Phil and other shrinks fodder for their columns and papers because people are delving into redemption theories and how people who have suffered great embarassment can go on. I want a woman and person of color to be president, I just want someone that is qualified and that we can trust with the job. Billary would create more problems than THEY ever could solve.

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 10:16 AM
40. Well, I must admit my wife can't stand her (she's a Bush fan), but I would say that out of the 25 or so women that I work around probably 20+ say they are voting for Mrs Clinton. 'Sticking by her man' the way she did seems to come off as a positive with most of the women I talk politics with (except my wife, of course). I'm goin with her, and I think so will the country.

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 10:23 AM
41. Duffman,

I am not a Bush fan, but I think I like your wife.

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 10:30 AM
42. RE: Hillary and women vote
I think women do gravitate towards her candidacy because she stands a good shot of breaking the glass ceiling of politics, and because they liked Bill (for some reason or other). Her problem though, and women need to consider this, is she may actually set back the cause. There are other women politicians that are alot more qualified than Hillary. If she happens to be elected (choke) and doesn't get anything accomplished because of her (and Bill's) divisive nature, or because of her micro-management style (ala Carter), then the country may rethink electing a future qualified woman in the future for a long time.

Posted by: tc on January 25, 2008 10:51 AM
43. I wish we had better options than McCain or Romney. We're doomed.

Posted by: Heckuva on January 25, 2008 11:05 AM
44. #42 I somewhat agree with you, but the question is (as I just heard discussed on the Dave Ross Show) how does a woman get 'positioned' to have the chance that Mrs Clinton has now. I think you will have to admit that is not an easy task when you're up against the good 'ol boy fraternity. Fact is (regardless of how it happened) she (Mrs Clinton) has worked her way into a very opportunistic spot and she's running with it. I say you GO girl...and more power to her. We may find that she is not the right choice but I'm convinced she is and will be as good a politician as she needs to be and lets see what kind of POTUS she is. As you well know, we've had some doozies! :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 11:23 AM
45. #41..what's not to like; she's extremely hot! :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 11:38 AM
46. Duffman: Most women think Hillary's great for "sticking by her man"? Wow. Sticking by a man who put her through really excruciating private marital humiliation, and absolutely the worst public humiliation, and, as is speculation, had been doing it for years! I'd call Hillary and the women who find that admirable just plain stupid, matter of fact, dumb as dirt. And as long as women are that stupid in their logic, that old "glass ceiling" just ain't gonna shatter, at least as far as POTUS is concerned. We ladies need to be a little more selective in our role models if we want to succeed in the big boys' world.

Posted by: katomar on January 25, 2008 01:22 PM
47. Gee katomar could not each case be unique; we really don't know their circumstances do we. Admitedly, 'on the surface' it didn't look good, but if all of our lives were blown out of proportion by the media might we too be depicted in an unfair light. I've been married 'many' years to one woman; I'm very fortunate and lucky to have found just that one - but you know every relationship is different. Can't we give them that.

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 01:29 PM
48. The only "change" Mrs Bill Clinton is going to give you is what is left from a dollar, "change"

Posted by: HW on January 25, 2008 01:33 PM
49. ...and katomar, you took me out of context; I didn't say 'most women' in general, I said most women I talk to among the 25 of so in my work-place. :)

Posted by: Duffman on January 25, 2008 01:34 PM
50. WVH:

You seem to really have something against Paul but what I have not seen is one single vote in his 20 years of voting in congress that you disagree with. Care to let us in on what policies paul has supported that you disagree with? Maybe a link to a bill he sponsered or voted in a way you disagree with. Or maybe a policy he has given in any of the debates that you think is a bad policy?

Posted by: Lysander on January 25, 2008 04:07 PM
51. @38, I grew up in the Bible Belt. Romney has nothing to fear from Hillary.

Ron Paul would beat Hillary in the Bible Belt.

If Hillary were at the top of the Republican ticket running with our Lord and Savior in the VP slot, and the Democrats nominated the corpses of Lenin and Stalin, the dead Russians would beat Hillary in the Bible Belt by a landslide.

She. Has. No. Chance.

Which is nice. :)

Posted by: ShillBull on January 25, 2008 04:24 PM
52. Take a listen to this Ron Paul supporter going around the bend, you will laugh your @$$ off.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.dhttp://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/DENVER-CO/KOA-AM/CBA%201-22%20Angry%20Caller.mp3201-22%20Angry%20Caller.mp3

Posted by: JDH on January 25, 2008 04:25 PM
53. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxXgnA1DUCk

A better link

Posted by: JDH on January 25, 2008 04:27 PM
54. Duffman: Unfortunately, we DO know the circumstances, as testified by Bill Clinton and Monica during investigations. A case of too much information, I'd say. Would rather not have known. It was a rather unique case, though, I'll give you that. Even JFK was never caught in any picadillos in the Oval Office. What a wonderful Legacy Bill has left. In fact, I saw a bumper sticker the other day that just about sums up the "ridiculousness" of Hillary's bid for the white house. It said: "Monica's ex-boyfriend's wife for President".

Posted by: katomar on January 25, 2008 04:46 PM
55. Both that was pretty funny, but not really appropriate to play in front of my kids. You should give warning in the future on that. But it sure was funny how mad that guy was.

While we are posting links to funny (but also sad) websites, check out this Mccain video showing his 'Straight (read 'double') talk'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI

Posted by: Lysander on January 25, 2008 04:48 PM
56. Lysander/Travis:

You said:

'You seem to really have something against Paul but what I have not seen is one single vote in his 20 years of voting in congress that you disagree with. Care to let us in on what policies paul has supported that you disagree with?"

What part of David Duke, racist loving bigot do you fail to get?

If you are that clueless, there is really nothing I can say.

Do you personally disavow David Duke and others like him?

Do you personally disavow the KKK and groups like them?

Just curious.

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 05:16 PM
57. Lysander @ 55: great video!

Lysander @ 50: WVH's baseless, ad hominem attacks are best left ignored. She only makes herself look worse by making them, and responding in any way only encourages her to continue her slander. I've told her I will not respond until she apoogizes for calling me names in the past, and that when she does that and can demonstrate that she can engage in civil discourse, I will respond to her again. She is trying to "bait" us, and rising to the bait would be as much a mistake for us as it usually is for fish.

Let's keep it positive, and respond to the rational, civil debaters like pudge, swatter, cato, Michelle and others.

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on January 25, 2008 05:20 PM
58. WVH:
1. So i will take your standard diversion to racism smears to mean their are no policies Paul supports that you want to publically disagree with him on?

2. Yes I will take the oh so bold and appearantly necessary step of personally disavowing David Duke, others like him, the KKK, and groups like it. Not sure what this has to do with my question I posed however. Maybe I should repeat it one more time to see if maybe this time it will get a response...

Do you care to let us in on what policies paul has supported that you disagree with? Maybe a link to a bill he sponsered or voted in a way you disagree with. Or maybe a policy he has given in any of the debates that you think is a bad policy?


Posted by: Lysander on January 25, 2008 05:23 PM
59. I personally have a list of hundreds of bills he voted against that he should have supported as well as voted for that he should have voted against - HUNDREDS. It really would be a waste of time to go through them all, but then you weren't asking me.

Posted by: Doug on January 25, 2008 05:40 PM
60. WVH.
Lysander is waiting.Hurry up with your cats.

Posted by: Publicbulldog on January 25, 2008 08:08 PM
61. Okay doug, Ill ask you... Just name one.

Posted by: Lysander on January 25, 2008 08:29 PM
62. Lysander @55, that was a good anti-McCain video. Did you also see the one out today that merges the Miss Teen South Carolina video (the one that gave the confused answer as to why people are unable to locate the US on a map of the world) with McCain's confused, rambling answer to Ron Paul's economic question from last night's debate. It's pretty funny. You can view it here:

Miss Teen SC Meets John McCain

Posted by: Bill H on January 25, 2008 08:51 PM
63. Lysander/Travis,

1.Apparently, you and the rest of Bruce G.'s homies don't want to answer the following two questions:

Do you personally disavow David Duke and others like him?

Do you personally disavow the KKK and groups like them?

Just curious.

2. Now, I have called individuals idiots based upon:

a. their lack of capacity for reasoning

b. their ignorance of facts and issues

You and the rest of your homies are idiots, that is not a statement against Caucasians, atheists, or any other groups. Just you as individuals.

Now, this is your bro in action:

Angry White ManThe New Republic Angry White Man by James Kirchick The bigoted past of Ron Paul. Post Date Tuesday, January 08, 2008 ...
www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca - 59k - Cached - Similar pages

Selections From Ron Paul's NewslettersJan 8, 2008 ... The Newsletters: Since at least 1978, Ron Paul has attached his name to a series of newsletters--Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul ...
www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=74978161-f730-43a2-91c3-de262573a129 - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

So, you idiots support a racist bigot and you are wasting your time attacking me as I wasn't voting for him anyway. You are the last people on earth whose opinion I would value. Besides, you and the other homies don't need to buy a vowel, you need to buy a clue. Why don't you homies convince TNR to run a spread on how he doesn't kick puppies, particularly the black ones?

You, the rest of the homies, and Tom Cruise are drinking the same type of Kool-aid. When is your space ship supposed to pick you up?

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 09:20 PM
64. Lysander/Travis and Cydney:

I forgot to acknowledge Lysander/Travis that you have done something that Paul and the others don't seem to want to do which is personally disavow the supremicists. Lest you think I am only on your Dude, I am waiting to hear about how Huckabee plans to respond to Huffington's post about links to the White Citizen's Council.

Paging Cydney for a response.


If you or your candidate don't get it, then you will never be mainstream in any political party, except that of David Duke. Birds of a feather flock together and most candidates don't want ties to racists of any color be it Farrakan or Duke.

Posted by: WVH on January 25, 2008 09:44 PM
65. Bill H @ 62: I've seen that video. It is a little ad hominem, but the basic idea is correct. McCain was clueless about this important economic policy commission. His answer was that he delegates economic thinking to others like Jack Kemp and the Treasury Secretary. Not very good for a candidate in a race where the economy is becoming the most important issue to voters.

If Ron Paul's aim in asking the question was to show the viewers that McCain was not going to be a good leader with regard to the US economy, he asked a great question!

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on January 25, 2008 10:33 PM
66. I hope that McCain wins in Fla. and Rudy pulls out a second place ahead of Romney. Romney cannot win - Republicans wise up and go with McCain, unless you want to see a Dem in the White House after Jan. 2009. Even though I am not pleased with McCain's stand on the border, hopefully he will continue to come around and understand the will of the people. (I'd give Romney the edge there, however it won't matter because he can't beat the Democrat nominee). Bottom line - McCain's stand on the borders (his weakest link) is still better than any Democrat.

Stop swallowing the Rush, Hugh Hewitt and Mark Levin -Romney kool-aid ! Romney is too polarizing and will lose to either Hillary or Obama. Look at the polls on this scenario if you don't believe it.

As for the Democrats; they might as well be called the minions of George Soros - he has poured millions into the DNC and their Presidential campaigns, so that they will advance his agenda of weakening the US economy and helping Mr. Soros and his hedge funds fatten his portfolio and move toward a borderless US and a global economy that plays into the hands of Soros, by merely moving forward the Democrat platform, that includes Universal Health Care. Whoever the Republicans select would be wise to inform the American people what is actually happening, with Soros - the puppetmaster in control of the Democratic Party. The RNC would be well advised to put out campaign ads with this information that will warn the naive average Joe or Joanne that the economy will be in peril if a Democrat is elected President - for the reasons stated above.

Posted by: KS on January 25, 2008 10:54 PM
67. The last president that we had the professed to know everything about all aspects of running the country was Jimmy Carter - he did great with the economy. I only hope to God that no matter who becomes president that they won't make the economic decisions by themselves, or think that they are qualified to. I'd rather them have a group of advisors that are economic geniuses. Last thing we need is a President with a 120 IQ (if any of the candidates have it) making a decision when we could have a 175 doing it.

Posted by: Doug on January 26, 2008 07:54 AM
68. Bruce Guthrie said "I've seen that video. It is a little ad hominem, but the basic idea is correct."

Yes, a little ad hominem...but funny!

Posted by: Bill H on January 26, 2008 07:54 AM
69. OK, OK, I agree, Bill, it was hilarious! :)

(See 62 above for link)

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on January 26, 2008 09:28 AM
70. For you Conservatives preaching gloom and doom - here is an excerpt written by Peggy Noonan yesterday.

"On the pundit civil wars, Rush Limbaugh declared on the radio this week, "I'm here to tell you, if either of these two guys [Mr. McCain or Mike Huckabee] get the nomination, it's going to destroy the Republican Party. It's going to change it forever, be the end of it!"

This is absurd. George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, by which I mean he sundered it, broke its constituent pieces apart and set them against each other. He did this on spending, the size of government, war, the ability to prosecute war, immigration and other issues.

Were there other causes? Yes, of course. But there was an immediate and essential cause.

And this needs saying, because if you don't know what broke the elephant you can't put it together again. The party cannot re-find itself if it can't trace back the moment at which it became lost. It cannot heal an illness whose origin is kept obscure."

Pay attention here. Actually, I am pulling more for Guilliani to get a second place in FLA. Seems like Rudy may be the best person to unite the Republican party (a number of talk show hosts disparage McCain but hail Rudy as an effective leader during the War on Islamofascism and can live with his centrist/liberal stands on other issues - there is not that much difference between he and McCain). I just don't believe Romney can win in the General election - and that is what it needs to be all about. And if the Dems win the White House - it will be detrimental to our economy and we can thank Bush for his weak leadership and his big government Republican actions - stupid is as stupid does !

Posted by: KS on January 26, 2008 11:05 AM
71. #62 - the link was kinda funny and believe that McCain gave a reasonable answer - he is willing to listen to economic experts, then make a decision. Ms. South Carolina's clip along side it was cute, but just a lame attempt to equate McCain's answer with hers - too bad that they didn't listen to what he said.

I don't have the audio link, but Bob Brinker made the statement on "Money Talk" last Saturday that Ron Paul is evidently ignorant about how to effectively deal with our economy as exemplified by his radical proposals without taking into account how it will affect our economy. So Mr. Paul may have been nodding his head, but I would shudder to hear his response to the question that he asked Sen. McCain.

Posted by: KS on January 26, 2008 11:16 AM
72. KS @ 71: Ron Paul has published his "stimulus package." Here it is from his website:

"1. Tax Reform: Reduce the tax burden and eliminate taxes that punish investment and savings, including job-killing corporate taxes.

2. Spending Reform: Eliminate wasteful spending. Reduce overseas commitments. Freeze all non-defense, non-entitlement spending at current levels.

3. Monetary Policy Reform: Expand openness with the Federal Reserve and require the Fed to televise its meetings. Return value to our money.

4. Regulatory Reform: Repeal Sarbanes/Oxley regulations that push companies to seek capital outside of US markets. Stop restricting community banks from fostering local economic growth.

Congressman Paul has written or co-sponsored numerous bills to enact the policies in his plan. In Congress, he has been a champion of lower taxes and limited government.

Congressman Paul is the ranking member on the House Financial Services Committee's Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade, and Technology. In Congress, Dr. Paul has never voted for a tax increase or for an unbalanced budget."

Sounds pretty good to me! :)

By the way, I predict that Giuliani will be the next to leave the Republican race. This is a shame, since he was a distant second choice for me. Huckabee will hang on, but will really be hoping for a VP slot. Ron Paul is raising more money than Huckabee, and will be in the race all the way to the convention where he will be in third place. The race started out with 11 candidates. It is down to 5 and Ron Paul is one of them.

I think that Ron Paul is the answer to Peggy Noonan's request above @ 70 for a return to the basic principles that made the Republican Party successful under Reagan. I agree with her that it is GW Bush and the Neocons who have wrecked the Republican Party coalition by driving out the limited government types and the fiscal conservatives and those who do not want America to be the world's policeman.

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on January 26, 2008 03:34 PM
73. WVH:

You forgot to answer my question. I will ask it for a fourth time. What specific policies has Dr Paul voted on in his 20 years of serving as an honorable congressman do you disagree with?

Posted by: Lysander on January 26, 2008 06:49 PM
74. Lysander/Travis:

How about he is engaged in a liplock with David Duke, you remember David Duke, don't you? Birds of a feather, flock together. Guess Paul made it to fifth in Florida. How is the fundraising going? I sure would love a cut of that swindle from Internet idiots, I could plan my next trip to Europe.

Posted by: WVH on January 29, 2008 11:12 PM
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