November 30, 2007
Great Column By Nicole Brodeur

No, really.  Here are the first two paragraphs.

You don't want to go down there. Not even in broad daylight, and certainly not alone.

That was the warning I got from some Seattle Parks and Recreation employees the other day.  And they were right.  On a tour of several homeless encampments Thursday with a group of parks people, I could have been stabbed, raped, infected, or fallen to my death.

You will want to read the whole thing.

If you read my report on the homeless in downtown Seattle parks, you will not find any great surprises in the column.  But it is good to see a "mainstream" journalist facing facts, often unpleasant facts.  Including the fact that some are homeless because they want to be.

The column isn't perfect.  Brodeur does not admit that she has voted for many of the politicians who helped produce this mess.  But it is a fine start.

Posted by Jim Miller at November 30, 2007 01:39 PM | Email This
Comments
1. We need to get away from calling them "homeless" and start referring them to "bums" like we used to. Cleaning up their image doesn't do anybody any favors.

Posted by: John Galt on November 30, 2007 02:56 PM
2. That you would choose to refer to these folks like that is telling; you must be a 'senior'. Gen X and Gen Y'ers will appreciate that we're all human beings and God's children and that a human being need not be 'tagged' by terms like that.
Shame on you! 'Favors' is not what it's about; focus on the value of human life is the omni-important virtue. But for the Grace of God go you and I - exactly what part of that don't you understand. How cruel, heartless and 'uppety' to make reference to the mentally challenged like that. You should really be ashamed of yourself.
Retreat to your room, get on your knees and say (at least) 50 Hail Marys' and an Act of Contrition.

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 03:33 PM
3. Gen X and Gen Y'ers will appreciate that we're all human beings and God's children and that a human being need not be 'tagged' by terms like that.... focus on the value of human life is the omni-important virtue.

I don't know your position on it, but those words are at odds with the liberal love and defense of abortion and the sacrifice of living embroyo's for other "more valuable" lives.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 03:38 PM
4. Ragnar: You beat me to it! And Duffman, those challenged people are the ones that our very liberal, progressive government in WA state threw out of state funded facilities on their asses with a monthly check and no support to keep them safe, help them make good decisions, keep them healthy, make sure they take their meds. Boy, that's my kind of compassion! We used to take care of our most vulnerable. Not any more. Now, we give them tent cities, where they are more vulnerable than ever. Well, at least we're not sucking their brains out...

Posted by: katomar on November 30, 2007 03:45 PM
5. RD: if you haven't picked up on this previously, I'm a bit of a wierd duck in that respect. You see I'm an 'independent' who typically votes Democratic. I'm generally against abortion and any ending of human life (there are exceptions, of course).
I would rather not be 'tagged' as a 'liberal' or 'conservative'; just as I think 'tagging' a mentally challenged individual who happens to live on the streets as a 'bum' is wrong.

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 03:46 PM
6. "I felt his frustration. I went into this with an eye to the plight of the homeless. I've come out knowing that many of them are out there because they choose to be."

And there is the lesson that many on the left driven purely by their compassion should heed. Much of our homelessness problem is not forced upon many of the homeless, but a choice made by the homeless who want that lifestyle. Rational choice, maybe not. But all the homeless cities out there, supported out of compassion by compassionate people, are but invitations to some people who are then allowed to feel even more comfortable with a lifestyle choice that society should not be endorsing.

Posted by: MJC on November 30, 2007 03:50 PM
7. Duffman the Hypocrite, TAG your it.

The Labeler

Posted by: Huh? on November 30, 2007 03:54 PM
8. For an expanded look at the issue of homelessness and the industry of homeless advocacy, read "The Reclamation of Skid Row" by Heather MacDonald in the current issue of City Journal. It is an eye opener.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_skid_row.html

Posted by: Amyzzon on November 30, 2007 03:55 PM
9. "I don't function well in a controlled environment."

Kinda says it all, doesn't it? Unless of course managing his debit card and welfare checks get to be a problem too. Then he'll see his state-funded financial adivsors.

Posted by: John425 on November 30, 2007 03:57 PM
10. The San Francisco drunk check approach obviously doesn't work. I don't have a clue what does unless the person is motivated. I know that from volunteering a one of the missions, that sometimes several attempts at sobriety are necessary. Also, among the homeless are families, children, vets, and the elderly. Some are there because of job loss, medical bills or some other unplanned event. It is unfair to lump people who had a tough break in with people who want to use alcohol or drugs and won't get their act together or mentally ill people who often can't get their act together. This is a diverse group.

Posted by: WVH on November 30, 2007 03:58 PM
11. #7 Oh, thank you Huh?. BTW: you have an appropriate moniker because you give the impression of not having a clue. Keep searching my son; hopefully you will find reconciliation and peace. Labeling and name calling gives one a temporary sense of 'gotcha', but as I'm sure you know...wears off ever so fast and then leaves one empty and 'ever-searching'.

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 04:01 PM
12. It is a diverse group, but it is also peoples choices that have put them there: the choice to use drugs or drink AS WELL AS the choice to live on the edge, pay check to paycheck. Is it everyone? NO of course not. But it is far too many that have been misled into believing they have no responsibility beyond the immediate moment; that someone will rescue them. How many times do we hear interviews about people that are just shocked to find themselves in that position? Hello??? Personal responsibility, PARTICULARLY if you have children dependant on you being a grown up and making grown up decisions.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 04:06 PM
13. I was under the impression that the mentally challenged only made up a small portion of the homeless population and that most were bums.

Get the mentals some help and throw the bums out; that also means those temporarily disadvantaged get help.

Posted by: swatter on November 30, 2007 04:07 PM
14. The term 'bum', much like the 'n' word need not be used henceforth; it's un-called for. Brothers and sisters we are all human beings, some work harder or are more educated or are just plain luckier than others. When all is said and done we all leave this planet as equals (as we have entered...aside from preconditions). Those of us who 'choose' (for whatever reason) to 'be lazy' (a very subjective observation) or not be so virtuous as to 'show the world' our 'work ethic'...really, what does it matter in terms of God's eyes.

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 04:18 PM
15. I don't care if these people choose to live their lives outside of four walls, as long as they don't break the law.

How is it that these vagrants are allowed to camp in public parks and green belts? Isn't that against the law?

Why aren't these people rounded up for a "three hots and a cot" vacation at the county jail?

As long as the police are going to turn their heads while this is going on, it will never end.

Posted by: Smoley on November 30, 2007 04:25 PM
16. What does it matter in God's eyes? You tell us. Once again would you approve of paying a teacher to leave class with children in tow to protest abortions at the clinic on school time without permission of the administration? Come on Duffman you can do it YES or NO. We already know that you approve of the teacher and children leaving to protest the Iraq war without permission.

Posted by: Huh? on November 30, 2007 04:32 PM
17. Duffman:

Clearly you and I believe in VERY different concepts of God. As I recall, Jesus wasn't exactly "non-judgmental," and while I definitely CAN'T judge another person's value (since I am not God), I most certainly CAN judge their behavior. And when that behavior sucks, I'm going to say so. Some behavior isn't okay, no matter how much you want to pretend.

Posted by: John Galt on November 30, 2007 04:34 PM
18. Sorry duff, but I for one am sick and tired of people changing the subject by trying to control the language. I am sick to death of PD BS.

Dictionary.com kiddo.. the definition of BUM

I have no doubt you will pick and choose those you like and whine about the ones you don't but neither will change the FACT of the definition.

**


Your Political Correctness Offends me

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 04:39 PM
19. nicole was born and raided under the cabbage leaves.

the under belly of society, rural or urban has never been pretty

but, these folks need basics ... three cheers for the missions

Posted by: Raphael on November 30, 2007 04:40 PM
20. *PC BS

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 04:40 PM
21. And actually Duff, we whom you call "senior" remember when those who were bums had dignity: they would work for food and be courteous and thankful for help.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 04:43 PM
22. the real scum post a lot here

nicole was born in the cabbage patch and still goes there to think

bad ass stuff exits in every society, rural or urban

people who are in that down and out predicament need some help and understanding ... and a better way out

three cheers for the mission

and the rest of the pricks here, hope your christmas is horrible

Posted by: Nate, formerly under the bridge on November 30, 2007 04:44 PM
23. Give a fish vs teach to fish... that's the philosophical dividing line here, Nate.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 04:47 PM
24. Oh my Gosh, you mean we should no longer have understanding for the homeless because they are crack adicts who have family who can take care of them and we tax payers foot the bill?
How insensitive...

Posted by: tg on November 30, 2007 04:52 PM
25. I don't know which was more shocking in today's Local section--Turnbull referring to undocumented workers as "illegal immigrants," or Brodeur's coming-of-age column. Must be some re-educatin' going on over at the Times. Looks like Boardman is ceding the loonie left to the PI, and pandering to the conservative block of newspaper readers.

Posted by: Organization Man on November 30, 2007 05:00 PM
26. It's Bill Clintons fault. He was so busy adding
100's of thousands of new police, he forgot the
homeless...

Posted by: mark on November 30, 2007 05:13 PM
27. What is a "home"? A home is a shelter to return to, be it made of cardboard or fir framing with a shingled roof.

Let us not judge others by our own definition of home.

The fellow humans we are speaking of have made thousands of choices leading up to their ultimate decision to choose the naked heavens as their roof.

Please eliminate our judgemental labelling of our fellows and call these wanderers, "The Star People".


Posted by: Bart Cannon on November 30, 2007 05:53 PM
28. I'm tired of all the excuses being made for the bums, the homeless, the addicts, the mentally challenged or whatever you want to call them.

Most of them have made life choices along the way that has resulted in their present situation. I am not in favor of tent cities, so they can play act their way into the good graces of the do-gooders at the various churches while they thumb their noses behind the backs of the do-gooders.

I am not in favor of apartments for the alcoholics such as was built in Seattle recently, where they can drink to their hearts' content.

I am not in favor of the police rounding up the worst & taking them to Harborview to dry out or come down from whatever high they are on.

If they are drinking in public, buying or selling drugs, urinating in public or anyone of the usual behaviors seen around Pioneer Sq. & other areas of Seattle, put them in jail & give them stiff sentences until they get the word that their behavior won't be accepted. Don't release them for a later court date; throw them in the slammer immediately & maybe they will take the hint.

If they have mental problems, put them back in institutions where they can get some help. Mainstreaming the meantally ill isn't and won't work; they need to be segregated from the rest of society until or if they learn socially acceptable behavior. If they can't or won't learn it, they stay institutionalized where they can't harm themselves or those around them.

In trying to be compassionate, caring & concerned, we have let the inmates run the place & it's time to take back control.

Posted by: Clean House on November 30, 2007 05:53 PM
29. Your arguments to 'labeling' someone a 'bum' are wanting and it's obvious. You have a 'need' that no one has yet recognized? My people: come forward and be cleansed, take that immense weight off your shoulders and rest. Do you not see that to be enlightened you must 'tolerate' and thus be 'tolerated'. It's so simple, yet you fight it thru innuendo, half-truths and 'labeling' and 'tagging' of others. SIMPLIFY and rest and judge not for we all will be judged at the proper time - and you know what?...it WILL BE 'equally'.

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 05:59 PM
30. There are closed miltary bases sitting idle and unused all over this country. They should be used to house the "homeless" and for that the "homeless" should be required to earn their keep by growing and raising their own food. If they are folks on the cusp, homeless because they didn't plan ahead they should be given the opportunity to work in the community as well as contribute to their keep and taught to be self-reliant again. For otheres there is community work that always needs to be done in return for the housing.

There are ways to be compassionate without being stupid. There are ways to help others that actually do help them beyond the moment you've patted yourself on the back.

However, it is also a 2 way street, and there is never any thing as a free sunch... or dinner.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 06:01 PM
31. Wow! Nicole finally got a clue without actually being raped or mugged. Very rare for a liberal.

Posted by: Doc-T on November 30, 2007 06:11 PM
32. #30 RD: I detect a heart and an equal sense of compassion...what you suggest is fair...God Bless You! :)

Posted by: Duffman on November 30, 2007 06:29 PM
33. Re: #2 Duffman

Sorry, your "But for the Grace of God go you and I" isn't the correct phrase. The difference between you and I - and those who choose to live like that is - they gave up, we haven't. And they are being supremely aided by the coddling of the state.

Posted by: ClearView on November 30, 2007 07:14 PM
34. The Church Council of Greater Seattle sponsors the Homeless Coalition, among the findings for King County:

COMMITTEE TO END HOMELESSNESS
AND TEN-YEAR PLAN....

· More than 8,000 people are homeless each night in King County
· This includes approximately 5,200 single adults, 2,500 people in families and 450 youth and young adults
· Approximately 24,000 King County residents experience homelessness annually (i.e. people move in and out of homelessness, but 24,000 experience it every year)
· This is a regional problem - see figures on North and East King County Fact Sheet.
· Homelessness is expensive. The 40 highest users of the sobering center and Harborview cost over $2,000,000 annually. Supportive housing is much less expensive. Similarly short term rental assistance or intervention for families is much less costly that taking a family into the homeless system and then trying to re-house them.

Among their suggestions:

· Prevent homelessness with rental assistance, better discharge planning from health facilities and jail
· Increase availability of affordable housing
· Develop wrap-around system of social services combined with housing to allow people to succeed in long-term housing....

Regarding the mentally ill homeless in King County:

King County has a special court to deal with mentally ill offenders and they make up a significant population of the jail system and homeless population. The following article published by the American Pyschological Association discusses courts specializing in mental illness.

http://www.psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/52/4/477

The population of homeless includes different segments including long term substance abusers.
There should be solutions directed at each segment. I suppose some could label a homeless child a bum.

Posted by: WVH on November 30, 2007 07:58 PM
35. I suppose some could label a homeless child a bum.

Nope, but I would have no problem labeling his irresponsible parents as such.

No one becomes "homeless" overnight or by surprise. I will grant you that those mentally incapacitated or incable of understanding may be taken by surprise, but those of normal cognitive abilities are not. They chose not to reconize or chose to ignore their downward spiral and the took helpless children with them.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 09:14 PM
36. Now, we are getting somewhere. I suppose that you could make a judgement about some people and how they have conducted their lives. There are many that are homeless because of medical expenses, some because of longterm job loss. Many women become homeless because of the breakup of a relationship or death of a partner. I understand that the foreclosure rate is even up in King County and in other areas of the country people are suffering because of the mortgage thing. I suppose everything is at one point or another a choice. At least, the child isn't considered a bum. Since most children aren't emanicipated and until they are, they require a parent to care for them, I wonder if labeling the parent is productive.

I do understand the anger though. I live in Seattle and love it. I ride Metro and often take the bus on Third Avenue. I know more about street life than I care to. The people who live here with the assistance of the bicyle security and really great bus drivers try to make the city more civil. Even though I agree with the tough love approach of Rudy to making a city liveable, I still wouldn't call anyone a bum.

Posted by: WVH on November 30, 2007 09:43 PM
37. That's fine, I understand your position and it's one I have not experienced. However, I stand by my assertion that one does not have a home one day and is suddenly homeless the next. I stand by my assertion that those people had choices and options and most importantly with children the RESPONSIBILITY to pursue them to head off impending disaster.

Foreclosesure doesn't happen overnight, medical financial disaster doesn't happen overnight and even women suffering the fallout of horrendous relationships or widowhood doesn't happen overnight. And because those things don't occur like spontaneous combustion, because there are always warning signs, people have choices and options to heed those signs and to prevent becoming homeless... particularly with children.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on November 30, 2007 09:59 PM
38. Duffman is exactly wrong. Labeling is how we distinguish between different things. Hot and Cold, Good and Bad, etc. Judgement is a value. We label bottles so we don't end up pouring poison in the wrong place. And to be human, is to have the ability to make judgments. We all make key judgement every day. This is the human gift for survival, the ability to reason.

These bums choose to live in a manner that is the opposite irrational, and is often dangerous to the rest of us. If your neighbor starts playing inappropriately with fire, it's in your best interest to judge him and get him to stop.

It's sad testimony to the world that Progressives have dumped upon us, such that we can no longer even confront people with severely suicidal behavior without being reprimanded by political correctness.

A culture that tolerates such an inhuman morality of self destruction is far worse than a culture that's willing to confront and demand that people either seek help, or at least commit their suicide in a facility where no others will be endangered.


Posted by: Jeff B. on November 30, 2007 11:06 PM
39. Be judgmental if you want. But that won't solve anything.

Put the homeless in jail? Are you prepared to pay for that many more jails? Wouldn't it be far cheaper to give them apartments? And do you really think a night (or month or year) in jail will cause most alcoholics and drug addicts to quit?

Put the mentally ill in institutions against their will? Sorry, that's unconstitutional. You can force someone into an institution if they're a serious danger to themselves or others, but sleeping in a park or other "socially unacceptable behavior" doesn't qualify.

The above points are pretty obvious to anyone who gets past rhetoric and thinks for a few seconds. Is that too much to ask?

Posted by: Bruce on November 30, 2007 11:15 PM
40. After reading Duffman's material for the past few weeks, I have come to the realization that what he writes here is performance art. He is playing the part of a wacked out lefty for the benefit of those of us who get his joke.

Thank you Duffman, you have made me laugh, and in times like these, that is important.

Posted by: Moondoggie on November 30, 2007 11:46 PM
41. This is a most interesting discussion. We seem to have distilled it down to many people make terrible choices which lead them to ruin and therefore they are bums because they made terrible choices and their life is in ruin. I think I first heard this concept in a sermon by Billy Graham. It is usually OK to mention Billy Graham to a secular audience because many of those who hate God still like him. The concept is this, to hate the sin, but not the sinner.

In the context of the powerful and the powerless, many of the powerful make really bad decisions that lead many astray and are often of greater cost to society than the wrong decisons made by the powerless. Are both groups, the powerful and the powerless both to be labeled as bums?

Posted by: WVH on November 30, 2007 11:59 PM
42. WVH, Yes, I would rate Enron executives as bums and also the Clinton's Attorney General who attacked Microsoft costing billions in pension funds.

Posted by: Walters on December 1, 2007 07:41 AM
43. #28 Clean House; I wholeheartedly second every point you made. Society needs to get the mentally ill off the streets and into institutions where they can get some real help. They cannot help themselves and places like Tent City do not help anyone get counseling, take meds regularly, etc., the type of help they need. I would like to see my tax dollars spent for this purpose.

Posted by: Terri H. on December 1, 2007 09:00 AM
44.
I am so glad you are focusing on this issue of the homeless; and that you are doing it with digging and facts. One thing I will say, is that although the problem is concentrated in these urban "green belts" in downtown, it's really just one end of a spectrum that stretches from downtown, all the way into South King County, to Tacoma and beyond.

The poverty, the aimlessness, the homelessness, the meth. Washington is painted as a high tech wonderland, full of happy systems analysts.

The Washington I see is more like the Ozarks. A hidden substrate of people who were slammed headfirst into a world in which they can barely cope.

When I watch the news and see Jeff Renner spending a full five minutes on the "ski report", it seems that the leaders of the Puget Sound are afflicted by Rip Van Winklism. No, it's not the 80s, when Seattle was basically a well off middle class suburb. This is 2007/8 and the Puget Sound is a polluted, festering, traffic ridden, crime ridden, hell whole with islands of robber barrons, wealthy Bellevue-ites with starched blonde hair socialites driving Mercedes convertables, crooked bullying bosses, drunk-driving politicians, unfettered bureaucracy, and McMansions.

It is everything that we hoped it would never become.

Posted by: John Bailo on December 1, 2007 09:46 AM
45. Speaking Of PC
:)

Posted by: Duffman on December 1, 2007 09:47 AM
46. Duffman,

You are being a brat. Now, don't get me started with the war against Christmas and Christians, that is a whole other thread. Got anything further to say about the homeless and how they are treated?

1. Walters, glad that you are at least fair in the labeling. I really would call the Enron weasels and others like them evil more than bums, but they do qualify as bums. Some of the homeless population are in fact evil predators, many are not evil, however.

2. Terry H., many years ago the state developed a policy of de-institutionization which was supposed to go with group homes. The group homes were never funded and many mentally ill are on the street or in jail. A thread about funding social services ought to provoke fireworks.

3. John Bailo, I agree with you. According to the Church Council and others, a lot of the problem is hidden in the burbs. The homelessness is there, just not as in your face as Seattle. One might have a divorced woman who is technically not homeless because she has managed to hang on to the home, but there is no heat and the kids are malnourished, she is barely a step up from homelessness. I sure that some here will say she has made bad decisions and is still making bad decisions, though.

Posted by: WVH on December 1, 2007 10:53 AM
47. I sure that some here will say she has made bad decisions and is still making bad decisions, though.

No, but we will say she can make constructive CHOICES rather than let her children starve.

She can ASK for help from churches and other organizations.

She can get a job.

She can babysit children of people that have jobs.

She can go back to her lawyer who can explain to the judge why she can't take care of her children on what he deemed daddy should pay.

If you are not mentally incapacitated there is no good reason to allow yourself to fall that far. Lazyness is not a reason. The decisions of OTHERS are not reasons. It's called personal responsibility.

A story: During the depression my mothers father died suddenly. He left a widow who barely spoke English, and did not read or write a word of it. He left a widow who was virtually alone in America. He left her with 4 children under the age of 10. On top of all that, they suffered a tornado and lost most of the roof of their home. NOT ONCE were they homeless, nor did they depend upon the government. IT'S CALLED PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. It's called doing without extras to survive. It's called pride and self reliance. It's called understanding that America offers opportunity not grab bagfs full of goodies. It's calle ingenuity and industriousness.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 1, 2007 11:16 AM
48. I am sick to death of the pity poor me attitude of the takers and those that enable them.

Boo hoo hoo.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 1, 2007 11:19 AM
49. Ragnar,

Without knowing the individual circumstances, you are judging. First, woen still make about 60-70% of what men do. A homemaker who has been out of the workforce will not make a substantial amount upon return to the workforce in most cases. The reason many women hang on to the home is to keep their children in a good school. Churches and food pantries do help, but donations are down. The Salvation Army had a kettle taken in Spanaway and that hurt the Pierce County group. Last year this time, they had 4200 toys for donation, this year they have 60. Perhaps, people don't have your skill of always making brilliant choices, often situations at the individual level are a bit more complex than you care to acknowledge.

Posted by: WVH on December 1, 2007 11:37 AM
50. I do acknowledge all that WVH.

The point is that people don't suddenly find themselves in dire situations that make them warm and cozy one day then cold hungry and homeless the next.... again, not including the mentally incpacitated.

They have signs and warnings. They can choose to heed them or ignore them. Those that ignore them, who blithely continue on thinking their savior is around the corner are the ones that frustrate and yes, anger me. There is no reason to be that immature and dependant. NONE.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 1, 2007 11:45 AM
51. Here's an analogy WVH. You are an educator.

When you are teaching a class a kid doesn't suddenly fail. You have signs of grades going down. HE knows his grades are going down. You don't run to him and say 'here, let me give you an A to get you out of the depths of failing'... at least I hope you don't. You say, 'hey I noticed you aren't doing too well here, what are you going to do about it and how can I help?'

You don't GIVE him good grades, you offer him the tools to get them himself. He can CHOOSE to ignore the warnings and your offers or he can TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

It's the same principle.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 1, 2007 11:55 AM
52. Duffman and his lib buddies so righteously insist on putting our money where their mouth is; how about leaving me to my choices, and putting YOUR money where YOUR mouth is Duffster?

I do my charitable giving where I want it to go, not where you tell me it should go (taxation substituting for charity).

Get Lost Duffman.

Posted by: Hank on December 1, 2007 12:13 PM
53. Wrong sir...you'll put your money where we (the ruling party), thru tax structure tell you to put it. Period!
It's going to get so much more interesting under Mrs Clinton (& our current Governor...once she gets a clear and overwhelming mandate)...and it WILL happen. Hang on to your wallet as best you can; but we will decide how you spend. :)

Posted by: Duffman on December 1, 2007 12:25 PM
54. Gee, another dilusional liberal.

The fact that a majority of adult Americans will not vote for Hillary under any circumstances, and right today she loses easily to any Republican candidate, does not transalate into a sure thing, unless of course you are contemptuous of facts reality and history.

As to the re-election of Comrade Christinovitch, who is running scared in her soiled dainties lately, we shall see, my election stealing socialist loser friend........

Posted by: Hank on December 1, 2007 12:36 PM
55. Ragnar,

I think your analogy for the kid in school is apt. I am on the board of an agency that helps homeless kids and foster kids get their GEDs and get into college. You are correct that if there is early intervention to prevent homelessness or prevent the reduction in life circumstances, that is the optimum. Sometimes that intervention doesn't happen and then people get into survival mode where decisions are made simply on what it takes to get them through the day. Day by day the motto for sobriety has real reaonance with the kids. Many people in survival mode simply don't make good decisions.

Posted by: WVH on December 1, 2007 12:40 PM
56. If the plighted Star People (homeless) spent the same energy addressing their condition as the people on this thread have, they would have found many symapathetic ears in city and county government.

Ending Starpeopleness (homelessness) within six years is among the highest priorities of King County and Seattle government officials.

You Star People sympathizers should scour the downtown streets and hand out the e-mail address of county councilmemeber Bob Ferguson to every Star Person you can find. Our libraries have free internet access. Bob will help them. Using my meager savings.

And isn't this thread about Nicole Brodeur's excellent newspaper columns? My favorite was the one where she interviewed the Fat Tuesday killer of Cristopher Keim and at the end of that column she confessed, "Ya know, I kinda like this guy".

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 1, 2007 02:02 PM
57. Aw Hank, ain't life grand...and then we die.
I like turtles! :)

Posted by: Duffman on December 1, 2007 02:27 PM
58. And there we have the liberal, progressive group think and ambition, as Duffman so eloquently explained it.

"Wrong sir...you'll put your money where we (the ruling party), thru tax structure tell you to put it. Period!
It's going to get so much more interesting under Mrs Clinton (& our current Governor...once she gets a clear and overwhelming mandate)...and it WILL happen. Hang on to your wallet as best you can; but we will decide how you spend."

They have been seduced by the prospect of the power to decide how other people live, think, earn, and spend their earnings. A sense or right or wrong is not in the equation at all for them. The only important factor is the lust for power and control, establishing themselves as an elitist ruling party. Keep strutting your stuff, Duffman. Voters need to hear this, loud and clear, over and over.

Posted by: katomar on December 1, 2007 02:35 PM
59. When you subsidize something, you get more of it, and when you tax something, you get less of it.

So when government provides benefits to the homeless, it tends to increase the number of homeless people. And when government taxes income, property ownership, or retail purchases, it tends to get less of all those, and the result is lower productivity, less job creation, and more poverty, which also could lead to homelessness.

When people give food or money to beggers standing at I-5 off-ramps, they tend to encourage people to live that unproductive and self-destructive lifestyle. Don't give to them. It HURTS them. It prevents them from solving their own problems.

Private charities have some success in helping the homeless without creating dependency. Give to them if you like, instead.

But people have a right to make bad decisions, as long as they are not hurting someone else. I think that people have a right to be homeless, but they have no right to expect help in their self-destructive choice by individuals, organizations, or the government.

The mentally ill often find themselves in the streets. The peaceful among them have a right not to be forced into an asylum. They have rights, and just because they seem "odd" to us, does not mean we have the right to lock them up and medicate them against their will.

I have heard that about 75% of the homeless are funding a drug or alcohol problem. This is self-medication for many of them, but it is one more reason never to give cash to a street begger. Most of the time it will be fueling a self-destructive addiction.

Are you compassionate about the homeless? That's up to you, but if you care about them, don't give them food or money. It may look like it is helping them, but in the long run, it HURTS them.

The government needs to admit defeat on this issue. The politicians know they can keep power by persuading soft-hearted but weak-minded folks that they can help the homeless with their and others' taxes. Well, this is mostly a lie. The politicians hate to admit that private charities work better, because it threatens their power. They need us to believe that they can fix anything, and that therefore we should grant them more power and money and control over our lives. Well it is rubbish. It is all about their power, and more of the voters need to be educated about it.

It all comes down to the government. We need less of it. MUCH less. We need more private initiative and personal responsibility, NOT collectivism.

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on December 1, 2007 04:50 PM
60. Bruce G. @ 59,

That is an EXCELLENT comment.

Posted by: Bart Cannon on December 1, 2007 05:08 PM
61. Bravo Bruce!

But people have a right to make bad decisions, as long as they are not hurting someone else. I think that people have a right to be homeless, but they have no right to expect help in their self-destructive choice by individuals, organizations, or the government.

They also have no right to pee wherever they choose and defecate in doorways - that harms others.

They have no right to harrass passers-by - that harms others.

They have no right to prevent access to walkways, parks and buildings - that harms others.

Posted by: Ragnar Danneskjold on December 1, 2007 05:21 PM
62. Right you are, Ragnar @60.

And some of the folks above are right about labeling. Calling them bums may be accurate, but winds up being counter-productive. Bruce is right @39.

So let's work on solutions. The underlying problems include:

Slow economic growth
inflation
substance abuse
mental illness
street handouts
government handouts
failing government schools
government barriers to job creation
government zoning, growth management, and other government programs that make housing more expensive

Other than mental illness and street handouts, I think all of these are government created or at least govenment aided causes of the homelessness problem.

Liberals and other big-government fans, care to respond to those accusations?

Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on December 1, 2007 05:33 PM
63. Ragnar, you are right that no one has a right to pee outside, harrass people, or prevent access to public places. If a police officer sees someone doing one of those things, he/she can arrest the person, but given the cost/benefit, the officer is more likely to tell the person to stop. Is arrest really the solution? And no one homeless person "prevents access" to any place; a large number of homeless people certainly have that effect, but you can't arrest someone for offending public sensibilities.

The real question is: What should we do about this? You get extra bonus points if your answer is constitutional.

Posted by: Bruce on December 1, 2007 06:59 PM
64. Here's three things we can do that are constitutional:

1. Stop issuing SSI checks for being a drunk.

2. Make panhandling illegal.

3. Make living on public property illegal.

We have a bum problem because we enable them.

Posted by: Organization Man on December 1, 2007 07:56 PM
65. Rudy was a successful mayor because of the theory of taking care of the little things such as removing graffiti and swegee guys. NYC improved. I don't think there are many of any political persuasion that actually live in urban areas that will disagree with his approach.

Regarding homelessness. There are two major works that look at an economic model which explains homelessness. I am not a lameotarian, so I am not familar with the lameotarian theory. The recurring theme seems to be just eliminate government. Just curious, in your world is there any government of any type? The researchers are:

1. Brendan O'Flaherty
Published 1998
Harvard University Press
Homelessness

ISBN 0674543432

"Mentally ill people turned out of institutions, crack-cocaine use on the rise, more poverty, public housing a shambles: as attempts to explain homelessness multiply so do the homeless--and we still don't know why. The first full-scale economic analysis of homelessness, Making Room provides answers quite unlike those offered so far by sociologists and pundits. It is a story about markets, not about the bad habits or pathology of individuals.One perplexing fact is that, though homelessness in the past occurred during economic depressions, the current wave started in the 1980s, a time of relative prosperity. As Brendan O'Flaherty points out, this trend has been accompanied by others just as unexpected: rising rents for poor people and continued housing abandonment. These are among the many disconcerting facts that O'Flaherty collected and analyzed in order to account for the new homelessness. Focused on six cities (New York, Newark, Chicago, Toronto, London, and Hamburg), his studies also document the differing rates of homelessness in North America and Europe, and from one city to the next, as well as interesting changes in the composition of homeless populations. For the first time, too, a scholarly observer makes a useful distinction between the homeless people we encounter on the streets every day and those "officially" counted as homeless.O'Flaherty shows that the conflicting observations begin to make sense when we see the new homelessness as a response to changes in the housing market, linked to a widening gap in the incomes of rich and poor. The resulting shrinkage in the size of the middle class has meant fewer hand-me-downs for the poor and higher rents for the low-quality housing that is available. O'Flaherty's tightly argued theory, along with the wealth of new data he introduces, will put the study of homelessness on an entirely new plane. No future student or policymaker will be able to ignore the economic findings...."

2. Quigley and Raphael of University of California

"The quantitative analysis suggests that relatively small changes in housingmarket conditions can have substantial effects upon rates of homelessness.Consider, for example, a reduction in the rate of homelessness by one-fourth. The quantitative results suggest that this could be achieved in thesehousing markets by a 1 percentage point increase in the vacancy rate (froman average of 8.4 per cent) combined with a decrease in average monthlymedian rent-to-income ratios from 17.5 to 16.8 per cent. Given the natureof the underlying data, the accuracy of these precise estimates is open toquestion. Nevertheless, the calculations suggest that modest changes inhousing market conditions can have substantial effects upon the incidenceof homelessness.These consistent statistical results and simulations contrast with the con-ventional wisdom regarding the causes of homelessness. In particular, theresults suggest that a simple economic model of the tough choices faced byhouseholds and individuals in the extreme lower tail of the income distri-bution goes a long way towards explaining the problem. Most importantly,our ndings suggest that homelessness may be combated by modest supplypolicies combined with housing assistance directed to those for whomhousing costs consume a large share of their low incomes. Homelessnesscan be reduced by attention to the better functioning of housing markets.John M. Quigley and Steven Raphael,University of California, Berkeley, CA, USAe-mails: quigley@econ.berkeley.edu; raphael@socrates.berkeley.eduACKNOWLEDGEMENTSA previous version of this paper was presented at the Keynote Session at theAREUEA/ENHR Conference, Gavle, Sweden, June 2000.NOTES1In general, the housing price function need not be linear, and homelessnessdepends solely on the maximum of d(H, Y). For simplicity, however, we depictlinear price functions in Figures 2A and 2B.2Equation (1) implies 0 = UH2 UCBHor BH= UH/UC. The RHS is the absolute valueof the marginal rate of substitution. With diminishing marginal utility, B increasesin H at a decreasing rate.3To see this, differentiate (1) with respect to Y, yielding UC|C =Y= UC|CRudy was a successful mayor because of the theory of taking care of the little things such as removing graffiti and swegee guys. NYC improved. I don't think there are many of any political persuasion that actually live in urban areas that will disagree with his approach.

Regarding homelessness. There are two major works that look at an economic model which explains homelessness. I am not a lameotarian, so I am not familar with the theory. The recurring theme is eliminate government. Just curious, in your world is there any government of any type? The researchers are:

1. Brendan O'Flaherty
Published 1998
Harvard University Press
Homelessness

ISBN 0674543432

"Mentally ill people turned out of institutions, crack-cocaine use on the rise, more poverty, public housing a shambles: as attempts to explain homelessness multiply so do the homeless--and we still don't know why. The first full-scale economic analysis of homelessness, Making Room provides answers quite unlike those offered so far by sociologists and pundits. It is a story about markets, not about the bad habits or pathology of individuals.One perplexing fact is that, though homelessness in the past occurred during economic depressions, the current wave started in the 1980s, a time of relative prosperity. As Brendan O'Flaherty points out, this trend has been accompanied by others just as unexpected: rising rents for poor people and continued housing abandonment. These are among the many disconcerting facts that O'Flaherty collected and analyzed in order to account for the new homelessness. Focused on six cities (New York, Newark, Chicago, Toronto, London, and Hamburg), his studies also document the differing rates of homelessness in North America and Europe, and from one city to the next, as well as interesting changes in the composition of homeless populations. For the first time, too, a scholarly observer makes a useful distinction between the homeless people we encounter on the streets every day and those "officially" counted as homeless.O'Flaherty shows that the conflicting observations begin to make sense when we see the new homelessness as a response to changes in the housing market, linked to a widening gap in the incomes of rich and poor. The resulting shrinkage in the size of the middle class has meant fewer hand-me-downs for the poor and higher rents for the low-quality housing that is available. O'Flaherty's tightly argued theory, along with the wealth of new data he introduces, will put the study of homelessness on an entirely new plane. No future student or policymaker will be able to ignore the economic findings...."

2. Quigley and Raphael of University of California

"The quantitative analysis suggests that relatively small changes in housingmarket conditions can have substantial effects upon rates of homelessness.Consider, for example, a reduction in the rate of homelessness by one-fourth. The quantitative results suggest that this could be achieved in thesehousing markets by a 1 percentage point increase in the vacancy rate (froman average of 8.4 per cent) combined with a decrease in average monthlymedian rent-to-income ratios from 17.5 to 16.8 per cent. Given the natureof the underlying data, the accuracy of these precise estimates is open toquestion. Nevertheless, the calculations suggest that modest changes inhousing market conditions can have substantial effects upon the incidenceof homelessness.These consistent statistical results and simulations contrast with the con-ventional wisdom regarding the causes of homelessness. In particular, theresults suggest that a simple economic model of the tough choices faced byhouseholds and individuals in the extreme lower tail of the income distri-bution goes a long way towards explaining the problem. Most importantly,our ndings suggest that homelessness may be combated by modest supplypolicies combined with housing assistance directed to those for whomhousing costs consume a large share of their low incomes. Homelessnesscan be reduced by attention to the better functioning of housing markets.John M. Quigley and Steven Raphael,University of California, Berkeley, CA, USAe-mails: quigley@econ.berkeley.edu; raphael@socrates.berkeley.eduACKNOWLEDGEMENTSA previous version of this paper was presented at the Keynote Session at theAREUEA/ENHR Conference, Gavle, Sweden, June 2000.NOTES1In general, the housing price function need not be linear, and homelessnessdepends solely on the maximum of d(H, Y). For simplicity, however, we depictlinear price functions in Figures 2A and 2B.2Equation (1) implies 0 = UH2 UCBHor BH= UH/UC. The RHS is the absolute valueof the marginal rate of substitution. With diminishing marginal utility, B increasesin H at a decreasing rate.3To see this, differentiate (1) with respect to Y, yielding UC|C =Y= UC|C --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Homelessness is not my area of research. I suppose there are plenty of arguments pro and con regarding the role of the Fed, government, and government policy in housing.

Posted by: WVH on December 1, 2007 08:12 PM
66. Sorry for the double insert.

Posted by: WVH on December 1, 2007 08:14 PM
67. Organization Man, get real:

1. Stop issuing SSI checks for being a drunk.
I didn't think we did that. Please explain what specific procedure you are proposing here.

2. Make panhandling illegal.
That's been found unconstitutional (free speech) unless the panhandler harrasses.

3. Make living on public property illegal.
Define "living". And, more important, what should we do? Arrest those people and put them in jail? Which jail? For how long? And then what?

Posted by: Bruce on December 1, 2007 08:24 PM
68. WVH: Good stuff. And common sense tells us that Growth Management restrictions, along with repressive property taxes, have pushed housing prices so high that lower-middle-income families cannot afford a home to begin with. Then when they get sucked into adjustable rate mortgages, eventually they find they can no long longer afford their mortgage payment when interest rates go up. And seniors can't afford property taxes on thier homes as the values are artifically inflated to unaffordable tax levels. Fix those problems and we might see fewer families without a place to live. Start actually taking care of the mentally ill and developmentally disabled rather than paying them off once a month and forgetting about them, and we might actually see fewer of them sleeping on the streets, or dead because they can't take care of themselves and are instant victims.

Posted by: katomar on December 1, 2007 08:45 PM
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