November 05, 2007
What Should You Do If You Want To Reduce Congestion?

Vote against Proposition 1 (Roads and Transit), which will do almost nothing to reduce congestion.  Intentionally.

Vote for a Republican for governor next year, in the hope that he (or she) will change the state policy of encouraging congestion in this area.

It really is that simple.  Oh, I suppose that it is possible that a Democratic governor could fight the dominant groups in their own party, could work for transportation solutions that pass ordinary cost/benefit tests, but the record of last two decades gives us no reason to expect that to happen.

Posted by Jim Miller at November 05, 2007 02:21 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Why not charge people who use the roads like they do in the East Coast with tolls on I-5? If you need to drive to work alone that is fine, just pay for it and factor it into your compensation plan. If you ride mass transit or don't contribute to the congestion, then why should you really have to pay for it?

What do you think a good solution is to reduce congestion?

Posted by: Matthew Miller on November 5, 2007 02:33 PM
2. I saw the words "Sound Transit" on Prop 1 and voted no immediately.

Far as I can tell, they have basically spent millions and accomplished nothing. Certainly haven't accomplished anything that affects most drivers anyway. The problems have gotten worse, not better.

Posted by: cliff on November 5, 2007 03:10 PM
3. Stop building houses, apartments, condos, etc.

Reduce # of lanes to increase congestion beyond peoples' pain point so that they move out of state.

Limit social services to those who pay for them.

Posted by: Monroe on November 5, 2007 03:11 PM
4. We are already paying taxes for these roads. Tolls would amount to double-taxation.

The interstates are specifically *not* toll roads on the east coast.

The only reasonable solution would be a DOT which has an interest in addressing roads. Which the current leadership of WSDOT has specifically stated is of little interest to them.

We are spending billions of dollars on inefficient boondoggles rather than ensuring the vast majority of the people in this state who do not ride trains or bicycles to work (more than 98% of the working populaiton) get served.

Posted by: bfr on November 5, 2007 03:13 PM
5.
What we need to do and how we need to go about doing it.
King Counties Transportation problems are King Counties Transportation problem, and they should be fixed by King County. The original corridors of King County are not supporting enough local traffic. Point to any bottleneck or choke point on King County freeways, and I will show you an under performing original corridor that is responsible. Because King County transportation problems are caused by the lack of capacity and performance of the original corridors, it should be King County that fixes the problem. King County should start to invest in the original corridors now in order to address the problem of local traffic encroachment on the interstates.
I am asking for Budget cuts on King County criminal justice, from 74 percent to 65 percent to invest into the original corridor improvements. One by one our original corridors need to be improved with Levx systems, and over and under systems, to allow local traffic to better utilize the original corridors, which allow them to handle more local traffic, which in turn will free up the interstates for by pass traffic, and reduce the need for interstate investments.
The list of Original corridor investments will be for the following original corridors.
1. Over and under intersections at two locations on Benson Highway Between Renton and East Hill, 405 freeway exit to Benson hwy.
2.Over and under intersections at two locations on East Valley Highway between Renton and Kent, Kent and Auburn,405 freeway exit to East Valley hwy.
3.Over and under intersections at two locations on West Valley Highway between Renton and Kent, Kent, and Auburn.
4.Levx systems from Seattle to Federal Way ,Over and under intersections at two locations on hwy 99 South Seattle between Seattle and Federal way.
5. Levx systems from Seattle to Everett, Over and under intersections at two locations on hwy 99 ,north Seattle between Seattle and Everett.
6. Over and under intersections at two locations on 145th from I-5 to Bothell hwy Between Seattle and Bothell.
7. Over and under intersections at two locations on Coal creek parkway/Duval Avenue Between Bellevue and Renton.
8. Over and under intersections at two locations on Bel /Red road Between Bellevue and Redmond.
9. Over and under intersections at two locations on Newport way Between Bellevue and Issaquah.
10. Over and under intersections at two locations on East lake Sammamish way Between Redmond and Issaquah.
11. Over and under intersections at two locations on 202 between Redmond and Woodinville.
12 Levx systems between Renton and Bellevue on the Burlington northern route

Posted by: Publicbulldog on November 5, 2007 03:23 PM
6. Can anyone point me to any story that tells how much fares will be on this train? Any stories on how much it will in 15 to 20 to replace everything because it has gotten 'old'?

Thanks,

voting no ope

Posted by: YEE EP on November 5, 2007 03:32 PM
7. Fire all Sound Transit people and scrap any new Lightrail, until this one is completed, and it's value per dollar determined.

Make all existing bus transportation free of charge. Look at the ridership increase, and increase bus service where it is necessary

Build to ease congestion

Elect a new Governor who has new visions other than continually taxing the living crap out of her constituants!

Posted by: GS on November 5, 2007 03:47 PM
8.
First of all thinking that there is one fix to solve everyone's problems is just immature.

I live 6 miles from where I work -- and you know what? If I drive I still end up in horrendous traffic coming up Kent East Hill, or stuck on Central!

6 miles.

If I ride the bus I have to transfer at Kent Station -- and that can add minutes. In the end, it can take me up to an hour to use the bus.

6 miles.

Now I take my bike. Easy right? I guess you've never had to ride up Kent East Hill on Canyon Road on a daily basis. It's quite a climb ( 500 ft in 3 miles).

Today I was using Live! Maps to scout out a "passage" through side streets the would take me away from the cars. I have been appointed a member of the Kent Bicycle Advisory Board by Mayor Cooke.

I do what I can for my personal needs.

I have no illusions that it could be of any use to anyone else.

Nor do I implore others to "make it easy" for me.

I guess I'm a Conservative.

Posted by: John Bailo on November 5, 2007 03:58 PM
9. Bottom line is this: if we don't approve Prop 1, we will continue to suffer the indecision that we've heretofore perpetuated. Blaming and excuse after excuse is not the answer; we need to be agressive in getting things done. If you don't think they're getting done the way they should - ELECT NEW OFFICIALS, don't stymie IDEAS!!!
**VOTE YES ON PROP 1** PLEASE!

Posted by: Duffman on November 5, 2007 04:30 PM
10. If you are voting for Prop 1 to reduce congestion, I have some waterfront property to sell you in the Saudi desert.

They are on a last ditch effort to sell this ill thought out package.

I'll just ask you:

What emergencies has the 9 cent gas tax solved, or even started to solve?

I-520 - it was on the verge of collapse

Viaduct - Remember it was falling down

List what we got for the 9 cents a gallon, please!

Posted by: GS on November 5, 2007 04:30 PM
11. Prop 1 will add - what, 10 train stops on the I-5 corridor? And that benefits me how?

Posted by: steve miller on November 5, 2007 05:06 PM
12. The solution to the congestion problem is really quite simple. Enforce the laws that are already on the books to get the unlicensed and uninsured drivers off the roads. When you subtract 25% of the drivers from the mix, there will be no congestion. Have you ever noticed how much lighter the traffic is during the summer vacation months? Unfortunately, the leadership (or lack thereof) in this state lacks the political courage to effect this solution.

Posted by: tim on November 5, 2007 05:15 PM
13. Do mostly nothing.

Let congestion inform individual's housing, employment, education and recreational choices.

We're already seeing the market place respond by building new housing in most of our downtowns, and places of concentrated employment.

We value individual choice, blast transit as social engineering and then turn the blinders on when road decisions are made that also social engineer.

Oh, doing nothing is a decision too - and I suppose includes social engineering as well. It enhances the value of those communities that were built with great street systems, lots of pedestrian connections and mixed up uses. It diminishes the value of those communities that have weak street systems, poor pedestrian connections and highly separated uses.

Which communities are which? The ones that are enhanced are those built PRIOR to massive government spending on highways and roads. The ones that are diminished are those that were built with significant public spending that we now find we either can't afford, or don't want to afford.

So, doing nothing is a return to spending less and relying on the market place to make the economic decisions, rather than government.

Problem is of course that the "American dream" of a house surrounded by a yard depends on healthy government spending.

It is a choice to live out in the hinterlands. The cost is time. Should I help you get to work faster by building more roads for you?

Posted by: BA on November 5, 2007 05:15 PM
14. "Vote against Proposition 1 (Roads and Transit), which will do almost nothing to reduce congestion."

Jim, it's worse than that. It only does "almost nothing" if you ignore the opportunity costs. Imagine what that same amount of money would do in the hands of a WSDOT and County Road dept administration that was emptied of all the social engineers and staffed instead with folks interested in providing transportation that worked well for the vast majority!

Posted by: Kirk Parker on November 5, 2007 05:34 PM
15. I am glad that people - or, at least Jim Miller - are beginning to realize that the traffic congestion we suffer through is by design. Maintaining traffic congestion is the underlying objective all transportation planning in the state. The idea is that this will force us out of our cars and cause us to agree to spending billions on public transportation.

I had an out-of-town friend in the car the other day and we were leaving downtown Seattle to get on I-5 Northbound. He could not believe how circuitous the route to I-5 was. The only way to explain something so stupid is to say that it is that way be design.

Posted by: BananaLand on November 5, 2007 05:40 PM
16. Seattle is stupid alright.
Wait until we end up with a surface street alternative for the viaduct,and the ferry dumps traffic onto it during rush hour.
Then you will see just how stupid our State,County,and City can be.
YOU LISTENING CARY MOON......

Posted by: Publicbulldog on November 5, 2007 05:46 PM
17. Seattle is stupid alright.
Wait until we end up with a surface street alternative for the viaduct,and the ferry dumps traffic onto it during rush hour.
Then you will see just how stupid our State,County,and City can be.
YOU LISTENING CARY MOON......

Posted by: Publicbulldog on November 5, 2007 05:46 PM
18. Bananaland - head to University Street eastbound and there's a direct on-ramp to I-5 northbound.

Or, if you're at the south end of downtown James Street provides the direct access.

Both have been there since the 1960's when the freeway was built.

Driving is circles is what happens when you're lost.

Posted by: BA on November 5, 2007 05:49 PM
19. BA,

RE #13.

While it is all fine and dandy to say that our personal choices means we live with the consequences, your argument fails when you consider the value of a transportation infrastructure that allows commerce to function: Goods to reach businesses and people to reach work. If there is no system to bring people to a centralized center of commercial activity, that activity is stifled and productivity is reduced. Sometimes the only way to improve the economy is to use government to build the infrastructure.

Posted by: Eyago on November 5, 2007 06:15 PM
20. "Bottom line is this: if we don't approve Prop 1, we will continue to suffer the indecision that we've heretofore perpetuated."

And if we do approve it, the indecision will be perpetuated forever by the very funds that will be raised for (nudge, wink) transportation improvements. Since the bureaucracy which has 'designed' (well, made a specious sales pitch for) the improvements has proved itself wholly indecisive, the only use we may be sure of for those funds will be to perpetuate said UNELECTED bureaucracy and to bribe its politically selected supporters.

Give me indecision any day over indecision plus a massive boondoggle at my expense.

Vote out every one of the cretins who invented the unaccountable Sound Transit bureaucracy. It may take time but no one deserves rejection, humiliation, gibes, curses and anathema more than the authors of Proposition 1.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on November 5, 2007 06:50 PM
21. Eyago, yes commercial activity is enhanced when it is concentrated - it's the mix of ideas that has made cities, not rural areas, the location of innovation and change.

Cities have been performing this function throughout human history.

That said, why are we so focused on maintaining patterns of development that fail to recognize this?

I frankly have no problem with "government" building transportation systems - I don't think bottom line we're disagreeing much.

If you examine Sounder spending - the costs have paid for an alternative system to get people into Seattle during rush hour - it also paid for a considerably enhanced railroad corridor that increases the efficiency of getting goods into and out of the Tacoma and Seattle ports - a point probably lost to many.

Reading the posts here - it seems clear that doing nothing best matches the desires of those posting - see any thoughtful alternatives being suggested?

Posted by: BA on November 5, 2007 07:34 PM
22. Someone who's been active lobbying in Olympia informed my hubby that Gregoire has been very busy the last couple of years sucking up bigtime to all the special interest groups she'll need to try and defeat Dino next year. She WILL NOT go against those groups any time soon, if the reports suggest anything.

Posted by: Michele on November 5, 2007 08:30 PM
23. "It seems clear that doing nothing best matches the desires of those posting - see any thoughtful alternatives being suggested?"

Cut the crap ! First off, did the people have a voice in suggesting this monstrosity called Prop. 1 ? Nope, only the elites in the Government and their so-called experts. If Prop. 1 passes, this area will have successfully (sic) dumbed downward and the RAT tax will produce the least bang for one's buck - all in the name of Light Rail. Roads - HA !

There are many lower cost alternatives that will be able to be suggested, but only if Prop. 1 fails. There should be light rail going across Lake Washington, but first it has to be studied and there also needs to be a new 520 bridge, which Prop. 1 plus road tolls only fund 50% of.

Posted by: KS on November 5, 2007 08:30 PM
24. At the risk of offending government employees, a real solution to the peaking problem, aka rush hours, would be to allow government employees to start work at 10 and go home at 3. They would accomplish about the same, and the roads would be that much clearer for those of us with...how can I say this gently..."other types" of jobs.

The only down side would be reduction or loss of service.

Right.

Posted by: Organization Man on November 5, 2007 08:42 PM
25. Gee - I would vote for separately funded projects such as $4.4 Billion to replace the 520 bridge but to give the government everything that is only half paid for on proposition 1 is outrageous. Vote No!

Posted by: me on November 5, 2007 10:38 PM
26. BA @ 21. You are unfortunately uninformed. The Sounder trains are subsidized such that from Tacoma to Seattle it's about $60K per year per passenger. And it's about $150K from Seattle to Everett. That's not paying for an alternative system, that's just a really bad sinkhole investment that will never be recovered. We would have been better off giving every rider a car, with the stipulation that they drive it to an express bus stop when commuting. And the rail corridor was in place long before the Sound Transit trains and it has carried freight the whole time. And rail corridors were developed privately.

There's no doubt that having some mass transit is beneficial, but as Jim points out, just because it comes from Transit Planners doesn't mean that envisioned systems won't be subject to financial reality. Basic cost benefit analysis is never performed as the goal isn't reducing congestion, or serving large percentages of the population, but instead just feeling good.

Another key point is that Portland's light rail is often trumpeted as a shining example for Seattle. But what is usually not said, is that Portland's light rail was largely paid for by Federal dollars due to the political prominence (nepotism) of Neil Goldschmidt and his subsequent service as Transportation Secretary in the Carter Administration. Puget Sound residents would have to pay for the fancy trains without the help of the rest of their fellow Americans chipping in to fund our pork project.

And still, Portland's "successful" light rail system carries very few of her citizens.

Posted by: Jeff B. on November 5, 2007 10:58 PM
27. When reading the Pro-Prop 1 whine please keep in mind that many of those posting have a "dog in the fight", like their jobs. You could present the most comprehensive, thoughtful alternatives to the current measure and they would balk because it might not achieve their alternative Social Control goals. Here is another thought, even If you built out the complete transit system and by some mircale actually got the projected amount of ridership, who will run it?
Has anyone been through a Union transit strike? lots of fun right? Would the strikers be dealt with as harshly as say Teachers whose contract doesn't allow them to strike because they are essential services? Alternatives exist, you need to change the people reviewing the projects and controlling the purse strings to get to "yes" on congestion relief. Prop 1 is not the answer.

Posted by: Huh? on November 6, 2007 07:34 AM
28. First off, for Jim Miller: If you think Rossi will get things done, you are dreaming. It exchanges one group of special interests for another (builders - so we will even have more out of control development w/o paying for infrastructure).

Second, to those who don't think Prop 1 will ease congestion: Have you actually studied the RTID package? Do you know the actual growth projection and traffic patterns for the south end? The package is very beneficial for the South end, which was neglected in the first ST. Why do you think Sims is now so against it? It is because he is not getting all the pie for himself. It is called moneys collected going to actually benefit the areas where it was collected.

To those who think adding more lanes is the answer: It depends on what the question is. If it is how to move the most people along existing corridors, then you are correct. If it is how to create other north-south and east-west corridors that operate independent of the current infrastrucure, then adding more lanes won't do a thing.

The problem as I see it is two fold. First, it is Sims and his follies and Seattle centric view. Add to this Mayor Nichols and you have two people that are most responsible for the mess in the local area. If you want to change the mess in the local area, then replace them. Whoever is governor doesn't address the local leadership problem.

The second problem is poor government planning. This doesn't just include just transporation, but includes planning of developments, planning for businesses, and planning for infrastructure. This region is notorious for just letting development happen and then fixing things after the fact. This planning can't be done by government alone. It takes businesses to be involved. Again, this starts with local leadership and again points to Sims.

So, my words of wisdom is if you want the transportation mess fixed, don't concentrate on the governor's position, but focus on Sims. Find some one to replace him that can work together with business to solve the region's problems. It isn't the state's job to fix Sims' mess, it is King County's job.

Posted by: tc on November 6, 2007 08:02 AM
29. The transportation mess is a direct result of
Sound Transit's Board being wholly insulated from the voters. None of its members runs on his/her performance as a transportation executive - if they did, the indecision and mendacious propaganda, delay and cost overruns, would have cleaned out the whole coterie three times over since the 1996 election installed the fiasco on false pretenses.

Of course, our kowtowing media which refuses to ask penetrating questions relentlessly, and to publish actual ridership and costs per rider versus the specious original 'projections', is deliberately greasing the skids as well.

When accountability reaches King County, there may be a change. But there's no sign of that ever happening while the 'urban' electorate fawns over Ron Sims, Greg Nickels & Co. They aren't elected to reduce congestion - in fact they're proud to force more of it on us regardless of cost.

Oh yes - the City Council promises a bunch of bicycle paths. No ridership projections nor comparisions with total commuters are presented - just more pie in the sky, and a rakeoff to a tiny constituency.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on November 6, 2007 08:42 AM
30. In addition to wondering whether the Sound Transit Board should be elected by the voters (yes) and therefore accountable to the voters, we should be asking what their conflicts of interest are.

Currently they are appointed, and many of them have stated in public forums that they do not represent their respective cities when they act on behalf of Sound Transit, which can be a direct conflict of interest with the interests of the folks who elected them, and whom they are obligated to represent.

Another good question is: are any of them taking campaign contributions from transportation service providers to help them get reelected?

See the post at: http://www.responsibletransportationforum.org/?p=296

Posted by: rtf on November 6, 2007 12:12 PM
31. I just voted for increased house boat density on the lakes and free canoe rides for everyone! Bridges? We don't need no stinking bridges! We can just build our way out of this city if we try! Woot! Woot!

Posted by: Acid Brain on November 6, 2007 02:10 PM
32. BFR--

Interstates can be toll roads on the East Coast: http://www.i95exitguide.com/tolls/index.php.


Personally, I'd be happy using tolls to pay for some new pavement. The problem with tolls, however, is that they require significantly widening freeways in places to accomodate the tollbooths, which is something that is really difficult to do with our geography (and which would probably take a major revision of our environmental impact laws to make happen).

Posted by: Marc on November 8, 2007 10:14 AM
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