September 18, 2007
Road-and-transit measure challenged

The Eastside Transportation Association has filed suit challenging the constitutionality of the RTID/Sound Transit ballot measure, arguing:

the measure violates one-man, one-vote because it gives greater weight to voters in Sound Transit's service territory over the larger number of voters in the area voting on the highway project list proposed by the Regional Transportation Investment District.

Phil Talmadge, an association attorney and former State Supreme Court justice, said the measure also violates the state constitution by setting time limits for appeals and challenges to the law that set up the ballot "and that's not fair."

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at September 18, 2007 08:36 AM | Email This
Comments
1. That's a good point, and the measure also often falsely claims that there are two halves, the road half and the transit half. Actually much more of the money goes to transit trains and the tunnels and other geographic challenges needed to build them. And when all is said and done, we get trains that move at only about 30 MPH, with a lot of grade crossings, and only a few cars per train.

Even if the system wanted to move a lot of people, it really could not even support that many people with two or three car trains moving at such slow speeds. So for billions, all we get are slow trains that run on the same routes that are already served by express buses, and that won't ever serve any more than a small 1% to 2% of the Puget Sound population.

It's foolish. If we were serious about actually establishing better transit, at a reasonable cost, we'd be looking at Bus Rapid Transit as many other cities around the world have done. But instead, there are too many construction firms, lobbyists and Progressives that only have eyes for rail and that desperately want to join the trendy rail ranks of other cities like Portland, LA and Atlanta. All cities where yes there is rail at the cost of billions, but that still does not serve ridership to anywhere near a significant percentage of the population.

Posted by: Jeff B. on September 18, 2007 09:02 AM
2. WHAT?? A ballot measure borne of the government being challenged in court for it's constitutionality? I thought only Tim's initiatives were to be challenged. And I have to say, kudos due to Phil Talmadge as well.

Posted by: PC on September 18, 2007 09:27 AM
3. Yep, it's pretty obvious that linking ST to the roads is unconstitutional. Also that the time limits are. There's really no question about it: the only question is whether the legal system will do anything about it.

Posted by: pudge on September 18, 2007 09:36 AM
4. Another reason to vote no.

And the hits keep coming . . . ..

Posted by: obtuse on September 18, 2007 09:58 AM
5. Jeff B @#1
You are right on target. Light rail in Portland averages about 25MPH and has limited carrying capacity. Can't speed it up because it has so many stops to make. Can't add cars because the loading areas can only so long before they cause logistic problems. Also, seating capacity per car is not all that great.

A little math would show that moving any significant number of people at rush hours on light rail is fantasy.

Posted by: RJK on September 18, 2007 10:02 AM
6. Seattle and the greater Sound Region voters do have a real opportunity here. We can either travel down the same foolish roads as our sister cities that have spent billions on rail, and that still have gridlock on their roads and little to show in terms of useful multi-modal transit. ... OR ... We could show true leadership and vision and try something different like Bus Rapid Transit, etc.

Seattle politicians and planners would be the talk of the country if in ten years they implemented such a successful vision at such a low cost. It would take courage and decisiveness, but it would be relatively cheap and doable in a much shorter time frame. We are in one of the software meccas of the world. We could do things with bus scheduling, GPS, etc. that would even be smart enough to account for real time traffic.

HOWEVER, we are led by a mostly Progressive and Left leaning set of leaders that on issue after issue, put rhetoric and intention ahead of substance, feasibility, affordability, etc. And on the left there is so much groupthink that it is entirely unlikely that someone will challenge the conventional Neil Goldschmidt style rail ideology in favor of other options. Rail is gospel for Progressives and they are all too willing to scratch the backs of their construction, union, legal, insurance and other interests that want to see big local projects, regardless of their effectiveness, or what they will do to the region's future tax obligations.

Posted by: Jeff B. on September 18, 2007 10:18 AM
7. There are some really great reasons for doing away with rail entirely.

However, on the flip side, I'm really disappointed with the Bush administration's slap in the face to the bike riding public...since bikes are a lot like cars and buses in terms of flexibility and freedom and yet pollute so much less:

The Bicycle Thief

In an Aug. 15 appearance on PBS's "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer," Peters spoke against a proposal to raise gas taxes to shore up the nation's aging infrastructure. The real problem, the secretary argued, is that only 60 percent of the current money raised by gas taxes goes to highways and bridges. She conveniently neglected to mention that about 30 percent of the money goes to public transit. She then went on to blast congressional earmarks, which dedicate 10 percent of the gas tax to some 6,000 other projects around the country. "There are museums that are being built with that money, bike paths, trails, repairing lighthouses. Those are some of the kind of things that that money is being spent on, as opposed to our infrastructure," she said. The secretary added that projects like bike paths and trails "are really not transportation."

Posted by: John Bailo on September 18, 2007 10:20 AM
8. Ho hum. And a vote for president in Wyoming counts more than a vote for president in California. If one-man, one-vote doesn't matter in a presidential election, it really doesn't matter in this local fooferaw.

Roads-and-transit is still a dead duck come november.

Posted by: electoral knowledge on September 18, 2007 11:44 AM
9. If you don't like the safeguards setup to protect middle America and don't like our form of government, there are others you might like better- Taliban and China come to mind first and second.

Posted by: swatter on September 18, 2007 11:59 AM
10. Why does this have to be an "either/or" arguement. The traffic in this area is so screwed up I would argue that you need every transportation option possible on the table, including trains. This constant suing to stop a vote on the issue is more of a waste to me than just letting the people decide.

I would wager that as soon as the light rail opens down Rainier Valley, it will be at or near capacity, just as every single bus going out to Issaquah and Sammamish from downtown every evening is standing room only. I never thought this was an option of wider roads, more buses OR light rail.... I always assumed we needed all of the above if we even want to keep things from getting worse than they are now.

Posted by: Splinter on September 18, 2007 12:27 PM
11. Splinter,

And we should have free personal rocket packs on every corner too. But who's going to pay for all of the trains, roads, buses, etc.? Trains are not cheap, $500 Million per mile. And they haul no goods and very few passengers at 30 MPH. No one is arguing that we don't need transportation solutions that go beyond just roads. The question is, what is the best way to get the job done for the least cost, and as early as possible. As it stands, billions for light rail that will serve only a few, and won't be finished for 20 to 30 years, and then will still serve only a few, doesn't sound like a good investment.

Posted by: Jeff B. on September 18, 2007 12:47 PM
12. Splinter,

How many of those folks in Issaquah and Sammamish would move to Rainier Valley? In fact, what's the number of commuters from the Rainier Valley to downtown that commute via car? Because aren't those the ones we're targeting?

Or are we just going to move people from buses to light rail?

Posted by: Edmonds Dan on September 18, 2007 03:18 PM
13. Splinter,
ST operates light rail between the Tacoma Dome and Ninth & Commerce in Tacoma. ST also operates express bus service between the Tacoma Dome and Ninth & Commerce in Tacoma. I don't have my research notes with me today, but if memory serves me - something like 1.8 boardings/deboardings per trip is all there are on and off the express busses that serve this location. When I brought this to the attention of ST they could not wrap their mind around the fact that just because the busses that run this route are full that still does not justify the service. Especially when it is redundant to the light rail service that serves this route already. What is happening is that riders who are commuting between Lakewood or Gig Harbor and Seattle are being hauled through downtown Tacoma forty minutes per day to drop off or pick up 1.8 riders per trip. The sole reason for this service is so that Condo developers can advertise multiple layers of free or subsidized transit service as an incentive to buy. This when other areas in the Region get nothing. It pays to have connections to the ST Chairman.

Posted by: JDH on September 18, 2007 04:08 PM
14. Chances of this suit succeeding are between slim and none, don't you think? The Court made that pretty clear in the I-960 case. It's not going to invalidate this or much of anything else on constitutional grounds before it goes on the ballot.

Posted by: stu on September 18, 2007 05:46 PM
15. Jeff B. @6, you make a great, great point. I've always thought that mass transit was crying out for some software solutions. This argues against rail, which is inherently inflexible.

Posted by: russell garrard on September 18, 2007 06:49 PM
16. Has Prop 1 been set in print yet? Where can we get a copy to read in full, unlike the original plan?

If I remember earlier descriptions, areas were added to the RTID, but not in the light rail area. Would the ballot item these folks see be only the RTID?

Are there two ballot choices for the ST/RTID or only one ballot choice?

$18 billion is misleading. It may be all they plan to spend, but it isn't anywhere near how much they plan to take from us via taxes.

Unless life expectancy quickly exceeds 90 years of age, I doubt I will live to see the bonds retired on this boondoggle, if it passes. My daughter would be older than my parents are today.

Yuk. Too much for choo-choos. Not enough for congestion relief.

Out of this 18 billion, how much will return to the general fund in sales taxes on construction materials - maybe close to 500 million (8 bill * .065)? This is half the amount they have in the plan for 520. How stupid is that?

I-5 moves goods and services up and down the Puget Sound corridor, why should they get stuck in Seattle when they are only going through?

Where in Prop 1 is the plan to remove the I-5 bottleneck going THROUGH downtown Seattle?

How's that plan coming along to fix the viadict?

No more money for failing bureaucracies.

Posted by: SouthernRoots on September 18, 2007 07:57 PM
17. Oops. They should fix the viaduct. The viadict can wait.

Posted by: SouthernRoots on September 18, 2007 07:58 PM
18. A badly needed package that does not:

- Fully fund a new 520 bridge with transit
- Fully fund a new tunnel/viaduct along the water front (prepared for future light rail)
- Utilize existing right-of-way for rail service on the Eastside (BNSF corridor)

is not really addressing the real needs while using some fiscal constraints.

We've heard numbers as being $18B (in 2006 dollars) and we've heard numbers closer to $50B for the final tab. In any case, it is a huge amount of money, and I think the legislature really need to step up and present ONE number, and clearly explain how it is calculated - else the voters simply will not buy it. We will have another monorail debacle and a few more lost years of "doing nothing".

I am all for building light rail, but should it really take 20 years for it to reach Overlake? And, should it cost over $100M/mile, when the SLUT only cost about $50M for the entire project?
Why does it need to be gold plated from the get go?
A new 520 bridge that allows for dedicated bus lanes makes sense. Just as it makes sense to build rali on the BNSF corridor along I-405. Even at 30 mph, it is still faster than a clogged freeway.

Sure we have challenging (and beautiful) nature, but we ought to be able to increase the rate of construction, thereby also reducing the financing costs dramatically. It's been done elsewhere where the obstacles as great or even are greater as in the Puget Sound Region. Why is it so hard in this region to get public projects rolling?

Gothenburg (Sweden) just built a one mile long waterfront tunnel. About same size and capacity as the proposed tunnel "light" that was killed on the ballot measure. Sure, the project was over budget but at the end, still only cost about %10 of a propsed tunnel in Seattle. Sweden is a high cost country, so no one can say it was done with cheap labor, instead I believe it was done with superior project management and skilled labor. Two factors that are likely the main ingredients for a successful completion once a project gets going.

Posted by: Per-Ola on September 18, 2007 10:01 PM
19. SLUT - Streetcar's unfortunate acronym seems here to stay

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/332081_slut18.html?source=rss

Posted by: JDH on September 19, 2007 07:45 AM
20. electoral knowledge: you show your lack of knowledge with that claim: Ho hum. And a vote for president in Wyoming counts more than a vote for president in California. If one-man, one-vote doesn't matter in a presidential election, it really doesn't matter in this local fooferaw.

Except that the President is not elected by people, but by states, so it is not possible for it to be one-man, one-vote. On the other hand, one-man, one-vote is required for state and local races. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Posted by: pudge on September 22, 2007 08:35 AM
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