August 21, 2007
RTID/Sound Transit Ballot Contest Shaping Up
Of note, the pro-side is loading up on campaign cash, not so much apparently for those opposed. Sounds like I-912.
Erica Barnett also has an interesting post at the Slog weighing the pros and cons of the measure, from her viewpoint as an ardent pro-transit, anti-roads urbanite. She's currently torn. Her post also discusses the degree to which the local environmental community is split on the measure, and why.
Using the breakdown of local transportation politics provided in Chris Vance's indispensable discussion of the topic, the totality of Barnett's post indicates the pro-RTID/Sound Transit folks are making some headway with the "Rail Zealots." The measure itself needs enough of that group and the "Freemanites" to join the "Build-it-all-Boosters" to put it over the top. It's unclear if they'll get there though.
On a related note, it seems most commenters in threads on transportation & tax issues at Sound Politics seem to fall in the Freemanites or "No-New-Taxers" categories if one wants to use Vance's definitions.
Posted by Eric Earling at August 21, 2007
09:04 PM | Email This
1. Now hear this: My county councilperson's office informed me that 67% of the funds from this tax will be marked for "mass transit" of any sort. Which means that at most just one third will go toward roads/bridges etc. Some deal. Just say NO!
2. NO WAY. I want the money used for Bus Bases mass transit that will allow us to shift our routes as needed and focus most of our efforts on the lane miles that will always carry the vast majority of humans, goods and services. Trains cost millions to build, and the fix us to routes that may not even carry a majority of the traffic, especially as growth goes in all directions, and jobs exist in small business parks, strip malls, office parks, etc. everywhere.
I will be a vocal door to door advocate to kill RTID/ ST2. We don't need rail that will be finished in another 20 years, we need buses and lane miles today.
3. "Indispensable." I like that. Thank you, Eric.
4. Your article today at Crosscut wasn't too bad, either. Perhaps a couple more good articles at Crosscut and we may promote you to Sound Politics.
5. This will be really funny in 10 years when significant numbers of hybrid and electric cars are in the hands of drivers but trying to drive anywhere--including the train stations--is absolutely futile.
It will be another King Dome moment where the taxpayers owe a ton of money on something that is no longer "needed". People will eventually demand that we invest in roads and the trains, unable to maintain themselves with rider fees, will deteriorate until nobody rides them.
I bet that before we've paid off the train debt, drivers will be in electric cars and the environmental argument against roads will be moot.
6. The problem is there is a 6th group. Those that think if the package is passed. That Light rail and mass transit will get paid first. And then the discover that they need more money and they will divert the money from the roads to mass transit. That this package is a Mass transit only package.
The overall view I have is that this is a Mass transit package that will not fix anything. It will make traffic worse. And a way to tax the people more. It will hurt the economy and jobs will go away from the area. As long as the politicians continue on Mass transit is the priority Transportation issues will not be fixed. We are going on over two decades of very little infrastructure for cars. We have had some fixes. But the real issue is that we have thousands of new people coming into this area every year. Yet road capacity has not really been increased to support it.
Bus service is not setup for efficient movement of people. I have friends that have tried to take the bus. 2 hours one way yet they can drive it in 45 minutes. They would rather spend the extra time with their family than take the bus. Oh yes in some case 3 or more bus transfers that include going to downtown Seattle to get to Redmond.
I have used buses all over the world. I enjoy them but when it takes two or three time longer to get from point A to Point B. Or when you have to put the kids on the bus to go to school 15 minutes after the last bus that can take you to work IT is not efficient. And lastly If my child is sick at school. Can I really afford 2 hour bus ride to pick them up at school and take them on the local bus home. Or do I pick them up in my car and take them home. I guess I should take a sick child on a BUS spread the germs.
It is true the people who want this system have millions of dollars to sell the idea to the people. I bet those funding it will make tens of millions of dollars that flow through by thier investment of a few million dollars. The corruption and paybacks I see taking place means those with the money to support the idea plan on making a big profit of their investment. They love making the taxpayers give them even more money so they can support more projects that make them more money all at tax payer expense.
7. The 95% of people who drive a vehicle to work need to get off their duff and vote this thing down in November. Because NO ONE will be screwed out of more money than that group.
8. The whole RTID/SOUND TRANSIT project will cost about 160 billon to compete according to Julia Patterson speech at the Renton Council meeting August 20, 2007 when she responded to the cost question. They don't want the public to know the total cost. Vote No and No
9. I would add another category to those identified by Chris Vance: the "Transit could work if it was done right, but since Sound Transit has completely screwed it up, it's a waste of money" group. I am more than happy to lead this group. Had they run light rail down the I-5 and I-405 corridors and then across the lake it actually might have made a difference in traffic flows at rush hour in those corridors. However, running it down Broadway, down Rainier Avenue and then across the Duwamish will actually do very little to decrease the commute time from Snohomish Co. to Seattle or Mill Creek to Redmond. No more money for light rail!
10. Hi all,
It's so lonely being a new-left-conservative!
I'm concerned about the integrity of the market--what tax is used to pay for roads is almost more important to me than whether a tax is used to pay for roads. If it's not a user-fee, it's a subsidy, and that distorts the transportation market.
Markets in which price acts as the great equilibrator between supply and demand are what made America great. If we tweak them further in the wrong direction, we'll just get more problems.
I'm pro-train, but why bother building a train if you're also increasing the already-existing government subsidy not to use that train?
It's cold comfort here in the Puget Sound Basin that stalwart anti-tax conservatives are with me in opposing this transportation measure. Adding me and the Sierra Club in to that group what does that add up to, 20% of the electorate?
This is depressing.
Thanks all, Newleftconservative#1
11. Again, why should we feel obligated to fund Light Rail, when it will not benefit the masses for at least 150 years - if Armaggedon doesn't strike first ? 67% for Transit and 33% for roads, should really be reversed - for a 20-30% lower amount would merit my vote.
Don't let the scare tactics of the Progressive elitists of King County coerce you into voting for it. This RTID is fatally flawed (like Hillary Clinton is) and it will do little more than mortgage your future. Vote NO !
12. When the BIAW put money into judicial races there were lots of news stories, eds, op-eds, and columns expressing alarm. With tax-spend ballot measures, the pro-side routinely outspends by 10-1, yet we hear little or nothing. Just a story here or there, and often not until after the election. Clearly the pro-tax donors are really investors, who know that they will get a many-fold return if their side wins. It's in essence a legalized kick-back scheme.
Why is it that puported good-gov't advocates in local media turn a blind eye? Maybe they put on Dave's Ross-colored glasses by mistake.
13. I hate to say it, but after watching BOTH of the Parks levys pass it has become abundantly clear that this region IS too stupid to pour Pi$$ out of a boot before stepping into it. RTID will pass, Puget Sound traffic will not improve and Ron Sims is laughing at all of the Taxpayers of King County.
14. Hi Chris,
The solution to our regions transportation problems is building high speed rail,and cut and covers at the major intersections on the original corridors,as well as tie ins from the interstates to the original corridors..
More local traffic must be re directed onto the original corridors,and high speed rail needs to lead the way in getting more local traffic back onto the original corridors.
If you look at any chokepoint in this region,it can be attributed to the encroachment of business districts on the original corridors,and the lack of capacity,and performance of the original corridors.
Congestion on 167 is caused by the lack of performance,and capacity or tie ins from sr 900 to sr 515,and benson highway.
Congestion on I-90 at eastgate is caused by retail,residential encroachments, and the lack of investsments,performance on newport way ,west,and east lake sammamish way.
405-I-5 congestion
Caused by the lack of performance on HWY 99,or extension of 509 to Tacoma.
I could go on .
You pick any congested point in our region,and I will show you an original corridor that is not properly serving the local traffic,and forcing them onto the interstates.
We need investment on the original corridors,and I am not talking about gentrification milk runs like sound transit.
The performance of the original corridors must be improved with high speed rail,Cut and covers along the major intersections,and direct tie ins of the original corridors to improve flow , and performance,which will enable us to divert more local traffic off the interstates.
We would actually have enough interstate lane miles for our by pass traffic,if we could get more performance out of our original corridors.
That is the answer to our regions transportation problems.
15. #13 - You may be right, so it is time to educate the indifferent masses who will vote an uninformed Yes - who are also brain dead and chalk it up to the certainty of death and taxes. Those who consider voting for it need to realize that it won't impact the roads noticeably until they are pushing up daisies - if ever and also consider how often they will actually use it.
#14- Fat chance that will ever happen here with the current crop of elitist liberal progressives and mentality of the ruling class behind the planning and staking their legacy on it. They are retarded about light rail planning as has been proven time and time again. They would rather expand Government control than find efficient solutions. The pro campaign will outspend the con campaign , but hopefully there will be a resonating message.
The current anti- RTID message actually lies about 90% of the money going toward light raiil (it's really 67%) - how about some credibility for a change ?
16. Roads for the rich,Gentrification and relocation of the poor is all D's.
The D's choose higher property taxes over low income housing.
The D's retail sales sales tax ,higher property tax wet dream is why we are destined for gridlocke our entire lives.
The Sierra club is being used to whoop whoop whoop us into gentrification and set up the apple cart for the sales tax, property tax happy D's.
The Sierra club,and the Greg Smith propped up greenie groups are not fooling me,they are not trying to save a whale salmon or frog.
The want to achieve gentrification of the inter cities and tax lovie and thurston to death,while the elderly ,and poor pay for their own relocation to burien ,white center,Kent,or Federal Way,until the next round of gentrification pushes them even farther out.
Like it or not,That is what the greeinies stand for now,A vote to relocate the poor out of the puget sound region,at the expense of the poor.
That is what the greenie groups are ultimately pushing.
The other pro tax groups want the poor to pay for the gentrification and relocation as part of their benefits package,so they don't have to pay and income tax to help solve our problems.
These groups have it down.pushing the tax hikes to avoid income taxes,help keep the larger employers employee's from having to pay income taxes is a major draw for boeing,and microsoft employee's.
It is a "social cut",and the poor are not making the "social cut".
The D's ,and greenies ,should be ashamed of themselves.
They can turn their heads and cough because greg smith has a check with their name on it in the mail
17. Bulldog - there is more than a kernel of truth in what you say. Meanwhile the electorate has their heads in the sand or where the sun don't shine if they go along with the same old song and dance propaganda that is being thrown out there.
After what was pulled by ST in 1996 - this is a just an extension of 1996 with a blank check to pay off the mortgage for whatever costs LR encounter - part of tax and government expansion agenda that D's and Greenies are salivating over. "Fool me once, shame on them, fool me twice, shame on me"
18. It's not hopeless. If Seattle voted down the monorail, the RT district can vote down the RTID proposal. The more public debate there is, the better the chances it will fail.
19. One word: whoops