1. If voting-by-mail is so horrible, why does the Washington State Republican Party keep sending non-profit bulk mail to voters (at least those deemed to be likely Republican supporters), urging them to sign up to vote by mail, instead of at the polls?

Posted by: Richard Pope on July 14, 2007 04:48 PM

2. Did I just hear stephan say OUCH! Keep up the the good work, Richard.

Posted by: fRed on July 14, 2007 05:10 PM

3. Richard @ 1: No, Stefan didn't just say, "OUCH." A certain GOP lobbyist who had unbelievably annoying radio ads when he ran (unsuccessfully) for the legislature got up onstage at the 2000 GOP convention in Spokane with the following message to the delegates: Register permanent absentee so that you will be more likely (!) to vote. He was almost booed off the stage, and by GOP convention delegates no less, who are, as a whole, a pretty darned polite group. Unlike the base, the WSRP leadership seem perpetually enamored with the idea, but that hardly qualifies it as a *good* idea -- or would you disagree?

Posted by: TB on July 14, 2007 06:34 PM

4. Both my dogs and all three cats know how to email from my home, can I register them all as Republicans, and watch this unelections office take three election periods to find out?

By the way Gregoire and 50 of her friends are all on a taxpayer juncket to Mexico. Isn't that a lovely use of taxpayer money.

I would love to see the public expenses piled up on that trip!

If she ever does come back to the state long enough that is.

Posted by: GS on July 14, 2007 07:47 PM

5. What stinks is one party rule of either party and the corruption that entails. I am always amazed by supporters of public schools who when it comes to voting say the low-income and voters of color who generally graduated from the same public schools who are failing them are now:

1. Too stupid to obtain a ID card or dirver's
license. Too stupid to obtain a birth
certificate

2. So dumb that they cannot complete a ballot

3. Too dumb to figure out how to get to
the polls.

Get out the vote movements don't want educated
voters, the movements want votes and preferrably
votes marked the "correct" way. Meanwhile, certain income groups be they union leadership or management or simply those with enough income to opt out of failing systems - will opt out. Acorn and groups like that do not want to do voter education, they want ballots so they can assist in the marking of ballots. All in helping dumb low-income and voters of color to excercise "their" franchise.

One party rule has been so effective in Newark, Gary and Philly. Failing schools only help the process. The new slavery is not so much people aren't allowed to vote, it is keep them dumb, dependent and dependable.

Posted by: WVH on July 14, 2007 07:49 PM

6. In SEIU's phoney pitch they forgot to mention that forced-mail voting would also lead to "world peace."

Posted by: Michele on July 14, 2007 08:13 PM

7. ..and Stefan is right. ANYONE can already vote by mail NOW if they desire. What happened, I thought the Left was pro-choice? How come they don't want choice for voters (or schools, or anything else except child-killing, for that matter???)

Posted by: Michele on July 14, 2007 08:16 PM

8. The SEIU is about the slimiest pack of sh*thounds on the face of the earth. You should see how they screwed the CNAs and other unlicensed staff at my hospital out of 4 years (and counting) worth of pay raises. I don't understand why they don't file a class-action lawsuit against those union pukedogs for all the back-pay that union screwed them out of.

Posted by: ERNurse on July 14, 2007 08:48 PM

9. Vote by mail seems to work in Oregon. There are no other options.

Posted by: Shawn on July 14, 2007 09:45 PM

10. ivan, have you considered rehab?

Seriously... they can help you.

By all means, back up your bizarro claim that forced mail voting (You do understand the concept of "FORCED," don't you?) has EVER been "just fine with the right wing."

Until this statre requires proof of citizenship to rergister, and proof of id to vote, it will NEVER be "just fine," no matter WHO is "doing it."

That, of course, is why I'll be giving money to whoever runs against Sam Reed.

Posted by: Hinton on July 14, 2007 10:14 PM

11. Hinton -- please don't bother to answer Ivan. He's an unreprentant liar. He's not welcome here and I delete his comments when I can.

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on July 14, 2007 10:41 PM

12. Really you are against all vote by mail, mandatory or not. IF the problem is that you think it opens the door to fraud then allowing anybody to do it will allow fraud as the fraudsters will simply vote by mail. Were is your initiative to ban vote by mail or do you realize that the people have already spoken by how they register.

Posted by: Giffy on July 14, 2007 10:41 PM

13. Giffy, I'm not against mail voting and neither is anyone else. We're against FORCED mail voting in KC because KCE has proven they cannot protect against fraud, abuse and otherwise slop in the process. Now they want the opportunity for even more fraud and abuse. It's quite obvious. We see through it and will speak out.

Posted by: Michele on July 15, 2007 12:46 AM

14. Michele, but that doesn't make any sense. Why would all VBM result in more fraud if anyone who wants to commit fraud can already easily vote by mail. Same with KCE. If you think they are fiddling with the votes by why would more VBM make that easier. Its already at80% how much fiddling do you think they are doing? Are you saying the small percentage that currently poll votes would somehow be induced to commit fraud by VBM?

Posted by: Giffy on July 15, 2007 06:40 AM

15. Giffy --

* I am not against all mail voting. I am against making it universal.

* Mail voting is not already at 80%, except in very low turnout elections, like school levies. In the last Presidential election in King County it was about 63%.

* I think the purported convenience and security of mail voting has been greatly oversold. I think if more people were better informed about the risks to their vote, then fewer would vote by mail than do today. Those of us who choose to vote at the polls, especially for reasons of security and convenience, should not be deprived of our choice. (You are pro-choice, aren't you?)

* Universal vote-by-mail increases the opportunity for fraud, abuse and "mistakes" in a few ways, for example: (1) you have many more ballots that need to be processed (especially in a Presidential election) and the systems can't perform as accurately. (2) The glut of unsolicited ballots is that much larger. All of the people who are registered to vote but not voting now have unsolicited ballots mailed to them. It's not hard to see the risks from delivering unsolicited ballots to an address where the intended recipient is not in a position to accept and safeguard the ballot.

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on July 15, 2007 08:55 AM

16. Stefan,
"Those of us who choose to vote at the polls, especially for reasons of security and convenience, should not be deprived of our choice."
Even under full VBM you can still drop off your ballot. No real difference there in terms of your vote. Still the same assurance that it gets to the election center. The only difference is that you fill it out at home, but honestly I doubt anyone would care if you drove to the drop off location and sat there filling it out just like old times.

"you have many more ballots that need to be processed (especially in a Presidential election) and the systems can't perform as accurately"

The only way there would be more to process is if more people were voting. I guess you could argue for keeping polling places open as a way to reduce turn out but that seems kind of odd. If memory serves the ballots are even identical no matter were they are cast.

"The glut of unsolicited ballots is that much larger."

But isn't there still a big glut now. In most elections less then 60% of registered voters turn out to vote. Thats a pretty huge number of left over ballots already. I'm not really sure how a glut of say 40% of 63% is ok, but that same glut of 100% is bad. It might be worse, but would not the former also have to be bad.

Aside from the argument that people should be able to go to a voting booth and vote, I don't really see how any of the arguments against all VBM don't equally apply to mostly VBM. Sure all VBM might be worse, but our current VBM is at least 60% as bad according to your arguements.

Posted by: Giffy on July 15, 2007 09:19 AM

17. please don't bother to answer Ivan. He's an unreprentant liar. He's not welcome here and I delete his comments when I can.

And I, for one, thank you.

Posted by: jimg on July 15, 2007 09:21 AM

18. Giffy: "Even under full VBM you can still drop off your ballot."

Not the same.

First, I don't want any ballot mailed to me.
Second, I don't want my ballot processed in the hideously complicated sausage factory [which I documented last November at this post], with unreliable "signature verification" and "voter intent determinations" and "duplication".

The most secure, convenient, cost-effective and reliable method of voting within our immediate reach is to vote the way I currently vote -- I walk to my neighborhood polling place, I present ID, I receive a ballot, I fill it out and put it in the machine, it's counted on the spot, and a secure paper trail of my vote exists for a recount or audit.

There's no good reason to eliminate that mechanism.

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on July 15, 2007 10:18 AM

19. I agree with Stefan. I want to be able to sign that poll book. I want to be able to hand my ballot over to be recorded.

I want to see my ballot be counted. I don't want to simply put it into the mail and hope it made it.

But most of all, I want people to take a few minutes out of their lives, and take the initiative to cast their votes. Not at their kitchen table, but at a public place.

I know I am dreaming here, because of our ME ME ME society. 'But I can always dream'

Posted by: Chris on July 15, 2007 11:12 AM

20. One other aspect of Mail Voting is that it is known in the past that the election Office does not know how many ballots are printed on their copiers. Attempts in 2006 for Copier company to make copies of Ballots for an Activist.
Here is a idea of what could happen in a mail in ballot only election. Those areas that are normally Republican would have a number of the real ballots thrown away. and replaced with a number of Properly filled out ballots. A few replacements like 5 to 10 percent could easily change election results. Espicially if they are targeted precincts that could affect local elections. True there are observers. But What happened last time. They started increaseing the staff so that there were more people working on ballots than allowed observers could see. Notice how easy it was to get over a thousand ballots counted more than those who were listed as voting(2004 election). IT is a numbers game. If an election is close target a few critical precincts could easily change the results of an election. Add a few ballots no one will notice. In all cases simple fraud is easy when the ballots are mailed in. No matter how good the controls are said to be.
If you can not get off your lazy ass to go vote they you do not deserve a vote. It is only a half hour or so unless KC wants to make it even harder to vote by under manning precincts in Republican areas so people will walk out without voting. But at least you know by the number of signatures how many votes are suppose to be from that precinct. Mail in does not even give you that check and balance. Because on Mail in. They could easily look for the ballots from people who have not mailed in thier ballot and say they had voted. 2004 election I know of 2 people who did not get ballots in the mail but they were listed as voted. Figure that one out.

Posted by: David Anfinrud on July 15, 2007 12:14 PM

21. There were people who VBM AND voted provisional and in cases both were counted. KCE KNOWS there will more 'opportunity' for such with ALL mail balloting. If they showed any ability to prevent fraudulent registrations and double votes, we wouldn't see what we've seen. VBM'rs have received in many cases more than one balllot. KCE knows that will happen more often if everyone is forced to vote. they HOPE for more opps for 'screw-ups" that result in extra ballots counted that shouldn't have been.
They didn't seem all that upset about a woman in SEattle (Stefan explained it all on this blog) who voted by mail twice in '04 and again in '05. if they cared, she would have been proscuted, and they would have cancelled the second registration before '05. THEY DON"T TRY VERY HARD TO KEEP IT CLEAN> IN SOME CASES THEY DON'T TRY AT ALL.

Also, they enforce laws which encourage fraud, and don't care too much about enforcing any fraud-preventing laws. It's very clear.
If KCE can prove that they care about clean elections and have mechs in place to prevent dogs from regitering by mail, maybe it'll be acceptable. We haven't seen anything that shows they can deliver a clean all-mail election.

Posted by: Michele on July 15, 2007 03:26 PM

22. SEIU-that would be the illegal immigrant government employee union-who's primary job is passing out freebies to illegal immigrants and their kids.

I live in LA, they're a major force here, they removed an incumbent Dem Mayor Hahn & replaced him with a ex-gangbanger Antonio Villa___________(fillintheblank) Raigosa Mayor.

We have unionized illegal aliens now working for the city, an army of menial laborers who vote and are exempt from SS taxes-among, they also get free healthcare for their families.

Posted by: Smitty on July 16, 2007 04:20 AM

23. Richard Pope: because it makes GOTV efforts easier. It was wrong, but so what? How does your use of this logical fallacy harm Stefan's argument?

Posted by: pudge on July 16, 2007 11:53 AM

24. I've studied this issue a lot over the years and I am against ANY mail voting, except for those who NEED it: those who are incapable of getting to the polls. Not only has, as Stefan said, the "purported ... security of mail voting has been greatly oversold," it's a downright fraud: voting by mail is the LEAST secure method of voting we have, even much more insecure than the much-villified DRE machines.

Note to all: even if you have "all-mail" voting you DO NOT HAVE TO VOTE BY MAIL. I have not missed an election in Snohomish County since all-mail was instituted, and I have never in my life voted by mail (or even done drop-off of a mail ballot). Federal law (HAVA) requires that they make voting machines available for the disabled (here in SnoCo we have them at the auditor's office and recently they've been at libraries across the county, too). This may be to some less optimal than filling out a paper ballot, but it is better than mail/drop-off, because at least you sign the poll book and show ID ...

Posted by: pudge on July 16, 2007 12:04 PM

25. The SEIU is the organizer and principal funder of ACCORN, who has already engaged in allegedly fraudulent practices in connection with voter registration in our state. It is to be expected that SEIU will do everything possible to stifle free speech.

Posted by: Paddy on July 16, 2007 01:32 PM

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