The third round of Republican Presidential debates is about to begin. CNN is taking its turn this go-around doing the hosting duties. The same ten candidates who were in the last Battle Royale will be grappling again.
Topping the card again is Rudy "The Hitman" Giuliani, John the McCainiac and "Nature Boy" Mitt Romney. Duncan "The Deporter" Hunter, "The Arkansas Toothpick" Mike Huckabee, Sam "Superfly" Brownback, Tommy "Two-Tone" Thompson, "Tijuana" Tom Tancredo and Jim Gilmore - who I can't even think of a nickname for - fill out the rest of the bill. Like any good wrestling match you'll also have that annoying guy who keeps on shouting stuff which enrages the audience while insulting their sensibilities. Enter Ron "Mouth of the South" Paul.
Like any good WWF event there's a chance that this event will be disrupted by outside forces with the threat of Fred Thompson, Newt Gingrich and others entering the ring with metal chairs to clear out many of the pretenders.
The tagline should be "They cut your taxes so you could buy the whole seat! But you'll only need the edge..."
Update:
I'll be live-blogging the debate. Like any Ward project which requires technical expertise, I hope it won't involve profanity-laced tirades, an engine hoist malfunction and JB Weld...
3:55 P.M
The downside of having the debate on CNN is that Brit Hume will not be moderating this session. Hume is one of the few persons on Fox, and dare I say cable news in general, who actually deserves the moniker of "professional journalist".
On a positive note, the telecast shouldn't come off like an overly-produced football game with jet-fighter sound-effects, graphic splashes, a news crawl and Transformers fighting in the background. OK, Fox producers might have omitted that last bit in their debate coverage but I'm sure they were sorely tempted.
We'll see how the questions fare with Wolf Blitzer behind the microphone.
4:01 P.M.
The "Big Three" candidates Romney, Giuliani and McCain have got to be sweating bullets with Thompson's expected (and dare I say hoped for) arrival in the race. Add some very unpopular positions on immigration (McCain), abortion (Giuliani) and gun control (Romney) and you have a situation where one of these three can fall off the radar screen really fast.
Conversely second-tier candidates like Mike Huckabee or Duncan Hunter should have nothing to lose here.
Intros:
Tommy Thompson has given the best line of his campaign. "I'm Thompson, the governor not the actor".
Iraq? Was it a mistake?
Romney felt the question was poorly worded.
Giuliani gave a definitive no and Iraq is a vital battlefield on the War on Terror.
McCain has been the biggest supporter of the War in Iraq. The question about whether he read some Iraq memo posed to McCain by Wolf was poor.
Brownback: Has been a proponent of the three-state approach in Iraq.
Hunter: You gotta like the fact that he has detailed knowledge of the exact Order of Battle of the Iraqi Army and has spoken with knowledge about shifting responsibility from U.S. ground forces to the Iraqis. (Which was the plan all along, right?)
Ron Paul: Got some staged applause with his Pat Buchanan-esque "Git out of Iraq" answer.
Iran:
Hunter: Spoke about interdicting supplies and military material coming into Iraq from Iran which is destabilizing the region.
(Wolf is trying to bait the candidates with a question about tactical nukes. Quite obviously, anyone with any knowledge about military hardware knows that we have many conventional munitions which can do the job just as well. Wolf is either completely ignorant or is trying to marginalize the candidates for being nuke happy.)
Giuliani: No option is off the table. Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terror and can provide extremists with nuclear material. "This war is not a bumpersticker. This war is a real war."
Immigration:
Tancredo: (Is quite eager - surprise surprise) Says we're not just talking about jobs losing, kids in schools or impact on hospitals and welfare system. Warns of Balkanization of the nation and a bi-lingual country. (Biggest applause of the evening).
Giuliani: Calls the immigration bill a typical Washington mess with too many compromises. Calls for "tamper-proof" ID card and data-base.
Romney: (A question on flip-flopping). Criticizes "Z" visa portion of the bill. Says it's not fair to allow illegal immigrants to stay here. Enforce the law as it exists.
McCain: (Seems tired and unfocused - again) He didn't answer the question on immigration defending his position as co-sponsor of the bill. "If someone else has a better idea, I'd love to hear it". (Quite a stir in the audience at THAT comment)
Hunter: A disastrous bill. Points out some of the fallacies of the notion that "illegals are just doing the jobs no one else wants". Criticizes "Bush-McCain-Kennedy" bill for slowing down construction of a border fence.
Brownback: Supports immigration bill "if" certain provisions are added.
Thompson: Secure the border and then move on.
Paul: (Gotta love the shaky camera angle CNN cut to) Apparently he doesn't support a border fence with Canada.
Humor
About the funniest moment in political history came over a question about a Catholic bishop having criticized Giuliani about his position on abortion. There has been a lightning storm causing technical problems during the debate resulting in an audible "buzz" each time a strike happens. As Giuliani was giving his answer about his position on abortion, the tempo of lightning increased quite dramatically. The candidates flanking the former New York mayor theatrically stepped away from him while he gave his response.
Climate change
CNN asked a loaded question about climate change.
Giuliani: Conceded to the theory that man contributes to Global Warming.
Romney: Reinvest in refineries. Have to pursue as a strategic imperative energy independence. This includes ANWR.
McCain: Brings up nuclear power and alternative energy sources.
Paul: True to his Libertarian roots, opposes subsidies to oil companies. Criticized foreign policy adventures which defend America's oil supply.
Don't ask, don't tell. Gays in the military.
There goes Ron Paul's support from Democrats. He didn't come out full-bore for allowing gays in the military.
Huckabee: The issue is already covered by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (This answer obviously threw Wolf Blitzer for a loop since he no doubt is ignorant of what the UCMJ is).
The other candidates pointed out that there are bigger fish to fry than placating the desires of a special interest group and when asked, none of them supported a change in policy.
Free Scooter!!!
(This is a nonsensical question since the question of pardoning Scooter Libby will be no doubt decided before any future president is sworn in. The CNN producers should stop reading DailyKos)
Hunter: Will pardon the two border patrol agents accused of shooting a drug runner first.
Giuliani: The punishment for "Scooter" Libby was excessive.
Romney: Prosecutor overstepped his authority.
Thompson: Bill Clinton committed perjury and lost his law license. Libby committed perjury and gets 30 months.
Audience questions from "Republican" and "Independent" voters likely to vote.
The candidates were questioned by (I assume) a New Hampshire woman who lost a brother in Iraq. Is the war worth the sacrifice?
Hunter: Having a friendly Iraq that is not a state sponsor of terrorism is in the best interests of America just like creating a stable Japan after World War II.
Brownback: Proposed his three-state solution again with a decentralized government.
McCain: Said the war was initially mismanaged. He feels that the current strategy with the "Surge" needs to be given a chance to succeed. If we fail, the lives of the U.S. soldiers which were lost will be in vain and Iraq will be a center for terror.
Paul: Gave some garbled response involving Neo-cons and Woodrow Wilson.
Giuliani: Brings up specter of Islamic terrorism hitting America not just in 2001 but as early as 1993. Asked the media when positive news comes out about our progress will they cover it as well?
5:42 P.M.
(For some reason the questions from the audience portion of the debate has turned into the empty platitude segment. It's gotten so bad, I even checked out the Stranger's Slog coverage which was even worse).
Apparently not only does Ron Paul dislike the War in Iraq but he won't take any military action against Iran either.
McCain is shooting himself in the foot even more. Says go down to the Vietnam War Memorial and you'll see Hispanic names. I guess he's neglecting to point out that these were U.S. citizens, Puerto Ricans and, on the whole, not illegals. He also gets the trifecta for giving the same old line about vetoing pork barrel spending and making the bill's authors infamous across the land. Waiting for the "drunken sailor and Congressional spending" hat-trick...
Health Care
(Are these Republicans in the New Hampshire audience actually Republicans? What's with all the questions about nationalized health care?)
Errata
Ouch. Hunter is slapping around Romney for his support of Bill Clinton's gun control bills. Says we need to move away from the Kennedy wing of the Republican party. The California Republican brought up the question about moderates vs. conservatives and who can win.
More Errata
Why are they interviewing a bunch of people who hate Republicans after the debate? Arianna Huffington? Give over, CNN! They're wasting time interviewing candidates (Romney) about Attorney General Gonzalez which is going to be a dead issue in November 2008. Amazingly, some CNN talking heads say that McCain won the debate. Personal bias much? If this is the case, it's a pity that the GOP candidate for president isn't selected with an open primary.
Conclusion:
I'm sure Eric Earling will come out with his own take later on tonight.
The most important thing with tonight's show is the fact that the appearance of former Tennessee senator and actor Fred Thompson will dramatically shake-up the status quo. How Thompson-the-actor-not-the-governor will work on the campaign trail and debate podium has yet to be seen. The one danger is that expectations are so high and any misstep could damage the pedestal of support he has created.
As for tonight, McCain was really in a no-win situation and he's the one who had the target on his back all evening. Romney didn't really say anything of substance that I can remember. But he sure looked pretty while saying it. Giuliani came across quite well and he's the candidate most likely to shrug off the effects of a Fred Thompson run. The former Mayor has staked out his position on moderate/liberal political ground and this shouldn't be eroded with the appearance of a new "conservative" candidate.
Duncan Hunter once again has shown that he deserves to be included in these debates. He does a far better job at articulating conservative principles while energizing that portion of the base. Tom Tancredo backers need to switch horses to form a solid and consolidated national security/immigration bloc behind him.
Mike Huckabee gave an excellent account of how faith and science are not separate issues. Being a practicing Christian is almost akin to being a Wobbly a century ago with the amount of discrimination levied against church-goers in today's political climate. It's nice to see someone clearly articulate how faith shapes his principles while not coming off sounding like a "Jerry Falwell".
Tom Tancredo, Sam Brownback, Tommy Thompson and Jim Gilmore are eventually going to have to back some other candidate. With it being June 2007, there's no harm in letting them be part of a national civics lesson. For now. It will be interesting to see when the artificial support for Ron Paul evaporates after it's realized that Paul's opposition to the War in Iraq isn't because of liberal/progressive principals but because he's way over in the right-wing rushes of the Pat Buchanan GOP wing.
When are we going to get some viable candidates?
Posted by: H Moul on June 5, 2007 03:38 PMAnd "Nature Boy"? What about "Pretty Boy" like in the gangster movies?
Posted by: swatter on June 5, 2007 03:48 PMPsst. Guys. 9-11 wasn't our fault. And you and your candidate aren't scoring any points by saying it was.
Posted by: jimg on June 5, 2007 03:56 PMron pauls forces have done him even more damage than he could have accomplished by himself (yes, it turns out that IS possible :-).
See the poll on slashdot where rp was included only because they got hate mail if it wasn't in a poll? LOL. What a sad, sad joke our politics have become.
Posted by: fox3 on June 5, 2007 04:10 PMHeaven forbid someone suggest we think about the consequences of propping up theocratic monarchs in order to feed our addiction to oil.
Posted by: Splinter on June 5, 2007 04:45 PMBill H
Posted by: Bill H on June 5, 2007 06:29 PMIf Teddy Kennedy and George Bush agree on an Immigration Reform Bill -- and "Congress" stalls it and belabors it -- then something has to be wrong!
Posted by: John Bailo on June 5, 2007 10:06 PMWake me when it's over.
Posted by: Hinton on June 6, 2007 12:05 AMCan't believe you've bought this religious martyrdom meme, Don. Note the many questions on items of faith, and time spent answering them--not only in the two Republican debates, but in the two Democrat ones as well. Very religion-heavy--especially for a job as head of a secular government. Church-going considerations have been over-emhasized if anything, in the political realm.
I'm a man of faith myself, but haven't we learned from the Bush disaster where pandering to a certain faith failed so miserably, both politically and in governance? Evangelical Christians lost too--they were misled by the political promises made by this administration. All they got were two Supreme Court Justices in exchange for a conservative movement and Republican Party in tatters, and an intractable mess in Iraq with our boys and girls dying everyday, and a humiliating, dangerous loss in this war effort that must be faced sooner or later.
I'm still waiting for a Republican candidate to emerge who will convince me not to stay home or vote Libertarian in '08. And remarks like your pandering anti church-going discriminating doesn't convince me that Republicans and conservatives have learned a damn thing from the bitter experiences of the last 3 or 4 years.
Well I've only darkened the door of a church once in my life and what I wrote about religion wasn't a "meme".
Posted by: Don Ward on June 6, 2007 02:59 PMAs you know, of the "Big Three", I like McCain the best. I just wish he had the same energy he displayed in 2000 today. For some reason he just doesn't look healthy to me.
Posted by: Don Ward on June 6, 2007 03:29 PMI like McCain getting mad and then cooling off quickly. I wish more did.
Posted by: swatter on June 6, 2007 03:54 PMYour choice.
I'll probably be voting Libertarian.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on June 6, 2007 09:57 PMThe popularity that Paul is gaining is, in my opinion, attributed more appropriately to his proven track record of integrity and fiscal restraint over ten terms in Congress. There is not another candidate on either side of the aisles that can hold up a record like that.
And I think while the major parties bicker over a lesser issue like Iraq, which is going to ultimately come out the same no matter who is in the White House - we would be better served by having someone in the Oval Office who actually believes they serve the people, and not the current status quo "politician" field of candidates on both sides who are more interested in what they should say to win votes, than what they should do to represent we the people.
Yes, there are definitely things I don't like about Paul. But, they don't outweigh the big picture reality that America is fed up by being swindled by our representatives in every branch. For that reason alone - it's worth not completely discounting him.
I also think it is interesting that the one man who believes most strictly in our Constitution - is the man people want to label a "wacko". The last I checked, the Constitution was a pretty intelligently written, reasonably effective document.
Posted by: MissOpinion on June 7, 2007 08:27 AMSo, we should anticipate that happening after the R nominee is crowned. Yet none of the other candidates can have ANY credibility on this issue, given their past rhetoric supporting the war. (The only thing on their side is that Hillary et al have also voted to support the war.)
Is this hypocrisy, or will it be "spun" as a change of heart?
Could you actually vote for a candidate who adopted this strategy?
Isn't this what most R's hate the D candidates for doing?
It feels SO good to vote for Libertarians.
They have principles. Free Minds, Free Markets, non-interventionist foreign policy, limited, Constitutional government...
I wonder if Ron Paul will seek the Libertarian nomination once he loses the R nomination? He has said he would not run as an independent, but that does not exclude another L run...
Voting Libertarian means never having to say you're sorry.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on June 7, 2007 12:17 PMThe Constitution is a libertarian document, and the very reason that America got so strong in the first place was because of our libertarian principles. Our free market, our social tolerance, our limited government and our reluctance to engage in entangling foreign alliances is what got us to where we are today: the only super power.
By denying each and every one of these principles, Republicans and Democrats have reduced our security, jeopardized our prosperity, and tarnished our moral reputation.
But Americans no longer believe in the ideals of liberty. They, like Bush, think of the Constitution as an obstacle to achieving their social goals. It is too hard to change, so they ignore it. The rule of law is out the window.
As long as this is the case, we will lose our liberty, bit by bit, over the coming years, and soon after we will lose our strength and our security and our virtue.
Education is the key. Liberals work to erode the belief in natural rights, especially the right to property. Mommy-state. Conservatives work to erode belief in tolerance of non-violent activities such as pot smoking. Daddy-state. Neither camp believes in the Constitution or in limited government anymore. Bush brought us such unconstitutional items as No Child Left Behind, the Medicare drug benefit and the USA PATRIOT Act.
But I'm just a wacky libertarian on drugs. Why should anyone listen to me? Ron Paul must feel similarly.
McCain is an authoritarian. Giuliani ran NYC like a dictator. Neither believe in limited govenrment. Romney gave Massachusetts socialized medicine.
Their popularity makes me think Republicans must be socialists. Disgusting. How can any conservative vote for any of these?
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on June 7, 2007 11:12 PMAs for his foreign policy, this is where I don't agree with him 100%. However, I also disagree with Don Ward's reference to him as an isolationist. That isn't entirely accurate either. I do believe that our foreign policy doesn't make a bit of difference if we continue to let our domestic policy destroy this country. It won't matter what we want to promote or do around the world if we implode due to a lack of honest representation and massive entitlement, special interest and socialized spending domestically. First we need to yank our politicians back in check and remind them that yes, we DO still have a voice of authority in this country. Then we can debate the best way to approach foreign policy.
We can do all of that without making any drastic or irrational changes to current policy that would put our country at risk. The first step is only to restore some logic and sanity to D.C. and convey very clearly to the status quo politicians that enough is enough. So far, only one candidate has convinced me they are capable of getting that message across.
Posted by: MissOpinion on June 8, 2007 07:32 AMBut there is much tension between the Constitution and many of the Republican and conservative positions. Separation of church and state, (Congress shall make no law...) the rights to privacy in the fourth and fifth amendments, the right to liberty enshrined in the fifth and fourteenth amendments, the insistance that our rights are equal, the skepticism against standing armies, the limitations on the power of the executive branch... All these things are against certain elements within the conservative and Republican "big tents." But they have no conflict with the small "l" libertarian philosophy, either within or without the Republican Party.
The Constitutional contradictions to libertarian philosophy are few. Perhaps the right to property was not adequately enforced, allowing government too much power to tax... But America was a very libertarian country until about 1930. Well, I guess the slide began when Lincoln eliminated the right to secession...
If you have any doubts about the idea that libertarianism is central to the true definition of conservatism, just take it from the gipper:
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. ... The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom, and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." Ronald Reagan
Too bad more conservatives and Republicans don't agree with Reagan. Others think that conservatism is adherance to old traditions or theocracy, but the Constitution is a revolutionary, secular document. Just the opposite of this definition of conservatism.
Ron Paul comes from the Barry Goldwater/libertarian wing of the Republican Party. Ron Paul reminds Republicans of the tolerant, non-interventionist philosophical strain that has always been a part of conservatism. Returning to that wing, and ignoring the foreign interventionists and the social conservatives could return the R's to power in a jiffy.
Won't happen. The R's will commit suicide over bad (unconservative) foreign policy, abortion and gay marriage. We will see a decade of Democratic dominance as a result. The poor and those of us who are fiscal conservatives will be the big losers.
Posted by: Bruce Guthrie on June 8, 2007 10:57 AMMost Americans will ultimately see the rest of the Republican candidates as a rehash of the Bush administration, which is essentially a rehash of CFR, Trilaleral Commission and Bilderberg policy combined. All of these private groups are pro-war and pro-One World Government.
The American people are too proud to vote for the North American Union. Ron Paul is making people aware of the real issues surrounding this.
It's good for the Republican party that this is happening. Time to clean out the krud and get back on track to the way the Republican party was meant to be. Neo-conservatism is far left liberalism, and is not representative of the Republican party.
Posted by: Don Michaelson on June 11, 2007 04:44 PMHe even went out of his way to make sure he owns controlling stakes in ABC, CBS, and NBC, to ensure his neoconservative views are delivered as "mainstream" ideas. This guy is a tin-foil hat raving lunatic.
His ideas are anything but mainstream. They are about as close to communism as you can possibly get.
Rockefeller's crazy ideas for One World Government are not based in Republican ideals -- small government, hands-off government, and protection of the Constitution. Don't be fooled by the neocon agenda that seems to have kidnapped the Republican party.
Posted by: Don Michaelson on June 11, 2007 05:02 PM