1. What's this, Talmadge and Kargianis wandered off the reservation? They both are (were?) uber-Dems.

Posted by: noel on May 16, 2007 12:23 PM

2. Most of the left in this region just can't get past the objective truths that indicate that the time raid based transit has passed us by.

First, rail is not cheap. And certainly not when we also have to maintain a road infrastucture, and if the Left removes their blinders, expand that road infrastucture as well to accomodate population increase alone.

The future bodes well for the automobile. New technologies will make the auto cheaper to own and run. And they are already incredibly reliable. Much more so than mass transit trains, and the distributed cost of maintenance is much lower per person, and best handled by the indiviudal and not union train mechanics.

On top of that, we now live in a world where there are many different activities, and migratory and service careers that demand more flexibility and that's not going to come through mass transit.

Lastly, there is the security and peace-of-mind aspect. Most see the daily sotries of terror and crime and they don't really want to ride mass transit with their fellow man, disarmed by leftist anti-gun policies, helpless and waiting to be a victim.

Rail in the Puget Sound is dead. The Left is still clinging to the Utopian Train vision.

Posted by: Jeff B. on May 16, 2007 12:41 PM

3. The cars, SUVs and automotive culture are like the dinosaurs. Peak oil is the asteroid. They will go extinct

Doubt it. The auto may not run on gasoline forever - there's lots of changes coming in that regard. Cellusositic ethanol, electric cars, fuel cells, etc, but the auto itself isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

As for light rail across the bridge, hopefully the voters send a STRONG message this fall when they vote down ST2 by a large margin. If not, it will be never ending taxes for something that is going to produce little benefit for most commuters.

Posted by: Palouse on May 16, 2007 01:01 PM

4.
Less is more.

Sink the 520.

Cut the lanes on I-90.

Abandon the Light Rail.

License more taxis.

Posted by: John Bailo on May 16, 2007 01:42 PM

5. Too bad for Americans indeed. Long-winded fundamentalists get into their blog comments and play Chicken Little.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on May 16, 2007 02:13 PM

6. You have a moving bridge over deep water, tons of locomotive in a confined area and environmental stresses that would quickly render the bridge unsafe to cross...based on the load and torque at the time. Don't build a bridge you can't trust or use 24/7, regardless of the wind and weather. God help you if it fails and somebody dies.

Posted by: Doug on May 16, 2007 02:15 PM

7. David, if you lived here you would know that there's alot of water that makes building infrastructure like trains difficult and extremely expensive. Building a train across I-90 would accomplish little also because there's very little density in that corridor to make ridership increase enough to reduce congestion.

For a commuter like me (and there's alot of us), it would take more than 40 minutes to drive (more if I took a bus) to where that train would leave. It just does not make fiscal sense to make this investment.

As for autos that run on other fuels and technologies, it's alot closer than you think. E85 will be here within 5-10 years, and there's currently a half dozen or more cellulosic ethanol plants being constructed. These plants will produce fuel at a MUCH lower cost than corn based ethanol, and with byproducts of things that are already being processed at pulp and paper mills. Fuel cell cars may be a bit further off, but they will get here well before your doomsday scenarios of peak oil come about.

Posted by: Palouse on May 16, 2007 02:16 PM

8. Falwell was a model of brevity by comparison with the One True Believer on this comment stream.

Posted by: Insufficiently Sensitive on May 16, 2007 02:32 PM

9. Before South Sound residents sign up for mega millions (billion?) dollar light rail lines, they should all take a trip to Portland and try to drive through town during rush hour(s). It is an absolute mess and rivals if not exceeds the traffic here. As Portland has had several light rails lines up and running for many years, it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that light rail does not, I repeat, DOES NOT, solve transportaion problems. It works very well for those 5% of the peoplewho are lucky enough to live and/or work close to a line. For the other 95%, it is worthless. Spending the money that is planned for light rail for roads that buses and cars can use provides many times the benefit to all commuters than light rail. Light rail is a feel good fairytale bought hook, line and sinker by unthinking masses.

Posted by: RJK on May 16, 2007 02:40 PM

10. Yeah, if gas prices go up to $5 or $6 our economiy will go into depression, just like it has in Europe!!! Oh, wait ...

Here's a prediction - We will NEVER run out of fossil fuels. Tar sand, coal, carbonacous (sp?) asteroids ...

BTW, in freeway lanes -vs- light rail discussions in San Diego a few years ago, it was estimated that one freeway lane carries 20 times the number of people than a light rail.

Posted by: IcePilot on May 16, 2007 02:51 PM

11. RJK is absolutely correct about Portland and light rail-an utter joke. Empty 80% of the time; $25 per passenger ride operating costs; great spot to get assaulted; the airport/downtown route is empty 90% of the time.

Only a complete idiot thinks a rail line between any downtown and the airport could possibly service anything other than a miniscule number of airport users; oops, sorry Ron Sims/Doug MacDonald-calling you characters idiots is insulting to real live idiots.

Speaking of utter jokes, looks like the Florida Loon has overdosed today and is once again randomly spewing on SP regarding spontaneous subjects.

Just more of the same; facts, history and reality are irrelevant to liberal know it alls.

Posted by: Hank on May 16, 2007 02:57 PM

12. I hope you SP posters are saving your posts for a better day. When the troll gets on board, I just surf through everyone's comments. Sorry, but my vote was for a ban for this reason.

Posted by: swatter on May 16, 2007 03:11 PM

13. Those of us who live in the Puget Sound area, and can think critically and realistically, understand a few realities:
-light rail requires masses of people going to and from specific places. Modern day economies render this concept to the dust bin of history.
-oil reserves have relentlessly increased since the inception of refining.
-motor vehicles are 95% cleaner than 35 yrs ago, as well as much more fuel efficient.
-luddite transportation planning, HOV lanes, buses, bike lanes, cater to very small minorities at huge costs, especially time costs, an actually increase congestion.

Step aside and let the adults run things.

Posted by: Hank on May 16, 2007 03:19 PM

14. Wasting your time Hank... DM shows up and just spews PURE BS!

Most of us don't even talk with him anymore. he's not worth our effort.

We just wait till he leaves and then have a real talk.

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 16, 2007 03:33 PM

15. I have to point out that Talmadge didn't do his research. The law he cites doesn't talk about highways, it talks about transportation.

The text of the law he's referring to is here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=47.12.063.

But if you don't want to read the whole thing, here's the summary:
The law requires that the property is "no longer required for transportation purposes" before a transfer takes place.

Posted by: Carless in Seattle on May 16, 2007 03:45 PM

16. Will you people stop feeding the troll?

(Even if it is a posting about bridges.)

Posted by: Raoul Ortega on May 16, 2007 04:09 PM

17. Raoul..... LOL

Posted by: Army Medic/Vet on May 16, 2007 04:12 PM

18. Through it's subsidiary National City Lines, which was set up to purchase and dismantle municipal rail lines in order to create markets for General Motors bus contracts, GM was found guilty of conspiracy to force GM-owned bus companies to purchase GM buses in 1949. GM was fined $5000 dollars and each executive was ordered to pay a fine of $1. National City Lines was acquitted of anti-trust charges and continued its subsidized hit job on the taxpayers and cities, and municipal rail services throughout most cities in America were destroyed by the 1950s. We in the Puget Sound are now bearing the expense of rebuilding nearly the very same infrastructure at thousands of times the cost.

Posted by: Acid Brain on May 16, 2007 04:23 PM

19. Yes, and the first route ST picked, from the airport to Seattle, makes a determined jog through the rainer valley, which I'm sure any passenger from the Airport to Seattle (or Seattle to the Airport) at say 10:00 in the evening, will be very unwilling to risk, especially with all of their travel luggage, computers, travelers cash and checks, etc. etc. I'd take a cab before I would take this risk personally!

ST is one huge boondoggle.

The 3 Self Flushing million dollar out houses of prostitution and drugs the city put in should have been the first and last of their follies, but ST will go down as their biggest.

Posted by: GS on May 16, 2007 04:59 PM

20. Stefan, please look into adding an ignore filter to your Blog. I am an advocate for free speech, even when I disagree with the opinions expressed. I don't want to shut anyone up, but I have no obligation to actually read such drivel. I'm just looking for a simple software fix, where I can type in "Ignore David Mathews" and never have to see another hijacked or off-topic post.

Posted by: Tadpole on May 16, 2007 06:46 PM

21. Here is a problem with conservatism: You would prefer to close your eyes & ears rather than deal with reality.

No, the problem is your tendency to hijack threads with long winded bloviating. At the time I'm writing this, there are 34 posts before this, of which I count 14 that are yours... just over 41%... and almost none of them are short.

You're like the snotty little know it all in class that acts like he's so superior to everyone else, and everyone else gets tired of listening too... not because of what he has to say, but because he won't ever shut up and drones on and on simply because he likes to hear the sound of his own voice and make himself feel important.

There are plenty of liberals on this thread that know how to keep it short and sweet, to make their point and wait for response. You're not one of them.

Posted by: Mike H on May 17, 2007 12:00 AM

22. Case in point:

The posting is not about bridges, Raoul. It is about the relative merits of mass transit vs. automobiles.

No, the posting was about the effects of putting a train on the I-90 bridge, not a discussion of mass transit vs. automobiles in general. Rather than stick to that topic, you would rather hijack this thread and use it as an opportunity to rail (no pun intended) against all Americans and their SUVs, who dumb it is to come up with new technology, how we're all going to die of dehydration after the entire county's economy collapses, and how we're apparently screwing Nigerians and the rest of world out of oil... just like every other post on every other thread you've hijacked.

Please, can the folks running this site PLEASE ban David Mathews? His abuse of this site to rant and rave about things that have little to do with the topic is getting pretty disgusting.

Posted by: Mike H on May 17, 2007 12:11 AM

23. #2 exactly.

especially the changing societal work and life patterns of late. i've rarely worked in many 'straight 9 to 5' jobs that are in one place for years & conveniently served by a rail or bus. and what about having kids in tow? changing 2-3 busses or trains at every turn?

i grew up using mass transit in the East. it's different there. rail does not work everywhere. like global warming, proponents are trying massive, costly, inflexible, blanket 'solutions' to any region's problems.

proponents of the rail here are the toddlers screaming for candy in the check-out line. dont buy that chocolate!

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on May 17, 2007 06:25 AM

24. Mass transit is humiliating to 300 million rugged individualists who derive their self esteem by the size of their SUV.

Guess what? I drive a SUV. Guess what else? I like taking the bus. I find nothing humiliating about it. Unfortunately, given that there is no bus service to where I live when I get off work at 11:30pm Saturday and Sunday night, and when there is bus service to where I live, I still have to walk a couple of miles and do several transfers that end up taking over 2+ hours, and seeing as walking 15 miles across a lake is a little difficult, I'll stick to the SUV.

Now riddle me this, what the hell does any of your diatribes have to do with the effects of putting rail on the I-90 floating bridge? Remember, what this post was originally about before you hijacked it to rant about "fat, lazy, consumer cattle Americans"?

Posted by: Mike H on May 17, 2007 08:58 AM

25. Convenience matters a whole bunch to you. Great.

Uh-huh... not having to walk 30 miles round trip a day in the middle of the night over a lake or ride a bus 4-6 hours round trip a day is a "convenience". Right.

Which doesn't answer my question... what the hell does any of your rants have to do with putting a train on a already heavily used floating bridge? You know, what this thread was about before you hijacked it to bloviate about how fat and lazy Americans are?

Posted by: Mike H on May 17, 2007 09:40 AM

26. Why would we put a train on a heavily used floating bridge? Because the part we're putting the train on isn't heavily used, and more people will ride the train than drive in that part of the roadway.

If you believe otherwise at this point, you either have bad information or you're in denial.

Posted by: Ben Schiendelman on May 17, 2007 11:12 AM

27. Ben:

If ST2 is approved, ST would get new spending authority relating to Phase I (in addition to a blank check to spend on Phase II projects). It could spend unlimited billions implementing the projects Sound Move describes as Phase I projects that it can't afford now. If you believe otherwise at this point, you either have bad information or you're in denial.

ST2 would be a blank check for ST to collect unlimited amounts of taxes. In contrast, the 1996 ordinance approved by the voters caps how much tax revenue ST can spend putting (what it can of) the system into place. If you believe otherwise at this point, you either have bad information or you're in denial.

In both of the bond sales contracts (in 1999 and in 2005), ST pledged to collect far more taxes than the voters in 1996 authorized. The ONLY way ST would be able to legally collect as much tax as it pledged to the bondholders is if it gets the authority to do so that it seeks via ST2. If you believe otherwise at this point, you either have bad information or you're in denial.

When ST CFO Brian McCartan reported to ST's Finance Committee that the second I-776 opinion from the Supreme Court contained a holding that validated ST's plans to collect the car tab tax throughout the life of the 1999-series bonds, he was completely, totally wrong. If you believe otherwise at this point, you either have bad information or you're in denial.

So Ben, go away now, ya' hear . . . .

Posted by: realist on May 17, 2007 11:50 AM

28. DM--still waiting for your move to ABA. (anywhere but America.) guess this is still a very comfy place from which to spout gloom & doom & self-loathing? loathe on.

in this locale, rail is too pricey & inflexible. it works better in the east & midwest for other reasons. i vote for better/expanded bus service & road options here. we are not compact Europe. we developed differently. and--the 'convenience' boogeyman you deride is part of our freedom and flexibility to work & produce value-added GNP components or manage our lives efficiently. time is money too. for earnings and for quality of life.

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on May 17, 2007 12:32 PM

29. Jimmie- re: In this locale, rail is too pricey & inflexible. Not so. It's expensive to rebuild now, but wrong on assumption of local topography and flexibility. Had our rail system not been prematurely dismantled to make way for automobile exclusive development and markets this would not be the case. Seattle-Everett-Tacoma had one of the most successful and highest per-capita ridership municipal rail infrastructures in the nation before it was dismantled in the 1940s. The systems were dismantled after the citizens had voted to keep them in place and were replaced with bus and highway infrastructure and corresponding development patterns. I ain't an anti-car and our roads & buses need major improvements, but we have been getting the short end of the stick for decades on effective transportation planning in the region and a big chunk of it is the lack of alternative infrastructure to supplement overdependence on single occupancy vehicle use. It's not because rail doesn't work here but because our predecessors have been meatheads on the issue. This region is actually really well suited for rail, it just needs to be implemented smart - the jury is still out on that becoming reality.

Posted by: Acid Brain on May 17, 2007 12:56 PM

30. David Mathews spews out in response to Mike H, "Convenience matters a whole bunch to you. Great."

Are you the little twerp who cannot give up your car to go around to take all those pictures of yours, your air-conditioner because it's too hot in Florida, heater because it gets cold at night, etc.? Your hypocracy is spewing...

Posted by: DopioLover on May 17, 2007 01:44 PM

31. ok 47--point taken.

where i come from, we build it & get it done. & sue everyone later. we don't study everything to death. we didnt do consensus meetings to worry about hurting everyone's feelings and honor every obscure tribe's/group's burial grounds (relocated respectfully)--and we had many such natives back home.

we annexed. we tore down houses. job was done. scandals kept every one busy later for years, but the working stiffs got a logical, WORKING, practical rail system that WORKED, & went nearly everywhere (read--to airport) & for not too excessive costs. crack some eggs. hurt some feelings. but stop jacking around & do it.

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on May 17, 2007 05:06 PM

32. i2i @49. all the way to the airport? paradise!

Posted by: Acid Brain on May 17, 2007 06:10 PM

33. I sincerely apologize to all for the inappropriate posts from my twelve year old son, David Mathews. Last night he had to be restrained by six paramedics and taken to the emergency room. The doctors at Children's Hospital have doubled the dosage of his prescribed medication.

We have removed all sharp objects from our home. During a previous episode he broke my left index finger and hit me in the back of the head with a porcelain dachshund. At this level of medication I do not believe he is a threat to anyone.

Currently, he is looking very cute, happily rocking back and forth in his favorite chair. Unfortunately, he will not be able to use his computer until we are able to reduce his medication dosage. Apple has told us that additional keyboard damage from drool will no longer be covered under their warranty.

Posted by: Vonnieglen on May 22, 2007 08:49 AM

34. This is a link to little Davy's picture, playing one of his favorite games.

http://www.firekite.com/store/misc/pics/forum13/retard%20toilet%20fishing.jpg

Posted by: Vonnieglen on May 22, 2007 09:15 AM

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