February 16, 2007
About that Surge Vote
Color me unimpressed by the vote in the House to oppose the "surge" in Iraq.
246-182 isn't much of a margin after a week of predictions reported in the media of 30, 40, or more Republicans jumping ship. Today's Seattle Times included a story predicting "dozens of Republicans" would support the resolution. In the end, only 17 Republicans voted to oppose the surge, while 2 Democrats joined Republicans in rejecting the anti-surge resolution. Even the AP story linked above acknowledges the point deep in the text of the story:
Supporters of the nonbinding resolution included 229 Democrats and 17 Republicans - fewer GOP defections than Democrats had hoped to get and the White House and its allies had feared. Two Democrats joined 180 Republicans in opposition.
Perhaps the less than expected willingness of Republicans had something to do with Democrats letting their true intent be known earlier this week, to pursue a "slow-bleed strategy" designed to cut the legs out of the ability of the Executive Branch to conduct military operations as planned. In such a scenario, the anti-surge resolution was no longer a castaway vote for Republicans to register disgruntlement with Bush and the course of the Iraq War. It instead became a prelude to a more serious fight to come.
If Democrats could only garner 17 Republican votes in the House for a non-binding resolution - while losing two Democrats - they face a real challenge rounding up the votes to cut funding for the surge. Plus of course there is this little thing called the Senate they'll have to deal with too.
UPDATE: I should have included this in the original post: Washington's nine Representatives voted along party lines, with Rep. Brian Baird not voting.
Posted by Eric Earling at February 16, 2007
08:35 PM | Email This
The anti-surge non-binding resolution is not much, but it is something and a step in the right direction. The Congress needs to assert its own authority over a President who has gotten America into a bloody mess of a civil war in Iraq.
The President has demonstrated that he cannot win Iraq and has declared he will not leave Iraq. Why are all these soldiers dying? They are not defending America, they are defending George WMD Bush's ego.
To that I say: No more soldiers should die on behalf of George WMD Bush! The Democrats must force George W. Bush to end the Iraq war under his own watch rather than allow this problem to fester for two more years so that it might become another president's dishonor.
George W. Bush has gotten America into the Iraq mess. George W. Bush must get America out of Iraq.
Congress must do whatever it takes to compel George W. Bush to end the Iraq war. This resolution is just the beginning, there is more coming.
As for myself, I contacted my senators and representatives. I even sent an angry e-mail to John McCain, to which he responded with a letter. Probably a form letter, but at least it indicates that someone on his staff read my message.
John CcCain said the following in the letter:
"We can and we must succeed in this effort, but we should make no mistake - it will take more time, more money, and more brave Americans will lose their lives in the service of their country."
In response to which I say: America has already lost Iraq. Too many brave American soldiers have already died. Too many brave soldiers have returned from battle injured horrendously.
Too many Iraqi children have died.
The Iraq war must end. The Iraq war must end while George W. Bush remains president. The Iraq war must end immediately.
Congress must force George W. Bush to take responsibility for his errors and end the war immediately. George W. Bush should apologize to the nation for all of the death and suffering which his crime has generated.
2. The cut & run crowd are obviously so proud of themselves. I think it is a sad day for the US. and even sadder for our troops who are doing their best. We need to clean house in Washington starting with Pelosi and the democrats.
3. Just what do they think will happen in Iraq if we turn tail and run?
Don't cry to me about all the poor women, children and soldiers who have died over there.
4. Just what do they think will happen in Iraq if we turn tail and run?
Don't cry to me about all the poor women, children and soldiers who have died over there.
More Americans are dying at home at the hands of illegal aliens than are dying in Iraq!
Where is the outrage?
It's fun watching Democrats try to undermine and support our troops at the same time. It's sort of like their beliefs of taxing everyone into prosperity.
Think back to when you were a kid. The Democrats are the one's that wanted to cut the cake in half AND pick the first piece. And if they didn't get what they wanted, they cried until their parents finally gave in, and gave it to them anyway.
6. Yes, didn't the news media just rush into print with stories about how the Republicans were turning on the President. And in the end only 17 voted for this shameful resolution.
Pull out of Iraq, Iran will pull in. Simple as that.
A disgusting vote against our brave men and women in Iraq.
8. The same bunch of traitors who voted to embolden our enemies today while demoralizing our brave troops, would have us getting involved all over the African continent to stop the "genocide" going on there. What's the difference between African genocide and Iraq genocide? Once again the socialists (aka liberals or Democrats)are caught in their own double standard. Anything that benefits Powerful America is bad. Anything that benefits Poor Africa is good. It's the same old mantra, Powerful-BAD, Poor-GOOD. That's why socialists hate Wal-Mart as much as they do America. It's all about the little guy rising up and taking the power and wealth away from those who created it through hard work and accomplishment. Then you end up with a run-down cesspool like Russia. That's what socialists have in mind for America.
I would like to have the names of all those so-called Republicans who voted with the traitors. They need to be ejected from the GOP. Time to clean house!
No amount of spin can justify this treason... this selling out of our forces on the ground... this strengthening of our enemies who are COUNTING on the fringers like Matthews to take the steps needed to erode America's will while strengthening the terrorists and the Iranians who are the most responsible for killing us now.
One day, the entire world will pay for the kind of nonsense the left is sprouting now in their despicable attempt to gain political power by walking through the blood of our soldiers... soldiers they would cheerfully sacrifice in a New York minute for political power.
Each and every member of the House that voted for this garbage, regardless of party, shouldn't be allowed to run an elevator, let alone run this country.
Bloggers are on it. Go check out the Victory Caucus. There's your list of the 17 soon to be former Republican congressmen.
I'll give Nancy and Teddy (and David Matthews) a hint as to the outcome of their impotent "strategy". The following is an educated guess...
1) Day one: the U.S. military pulls out in full (i know, its a stretch)
2) Day two: massive (involuntary) celebrations in the streets of Bagdad, Fallujah, and a few other Sunni strongholds.
3) Day three: The Sunnis emit a collective "oh crap" as the "death squads" begin the extermination of what's left of their populations
...two weeks on...
4) All members of the freshly elected government of Iraq, police forces and military (or at least the ones that didn't cave to the inevitable death threats or bought their way out of the country) have been dismissed to Allah's care, the local militias, thugs and strongmen are free to take control of their localities. The massive AK-47 and RPG stashes recently-buried in the backyard reappear. Any dissent (male only mind you) is met with a missing head and the respective families are sold into slavery to the highest bidder.
5) Anarchy and lawlessness reigns for what seems like forever
6) Evidence of massive genocide begins to appear on selected media. It is dismissed as a civil war amongst long-time rivals that "we" should stay out of. Its religious...that's scary stuff.
7) A new "Grand Mullah of Iraq" is self-proclaimed (you'll recognize him as the one who can get his folks fired up enough to kill more Iraqis than any other "leader"). He is embraced by most U.S. media and is legitimized through yellow editorials nationwide.
8) Sharia law is imposed (at least as much as can be implemented by the guy going on Al Jazeera). Female mutilations, mass rapes and targeted mass killings ensue. All conveniently filmed and shown on same network for posterity (and taped for fun and frivolity at junior's 8th birthday party).
8) Kurds, a few remaining Sunnis and everyone not of the Shi'ite community, attempt to flee the country in a human flood on a scale the world has never seen.
8) Jordan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Syria all seal their borders essentially condemning any refugee attempting to cross the border. Tens of thousands die or are slaughtered in the desert.
9) The democrat leadership (and I use that term intentionally) still refuses to recognize that anything may be amiss in the desert. Its nation-building you know...its a dirty business.
9) Iran begins to court the local militias offering money and "benefits" for cooperation.
10) Iran's military (so much as it is) toddles over the border and meets no resistance in its loligag towards Bagdad. When finally there, the leaders of the Iran delegation and the new "Grand Mullah" exchange pleasantries and Iran is issued the keys to the oil money. Mind you the wells will still be inoperable and/or inefficient.
11) Ahmadinejad (or rather his handlers) offer sanctuary and resources to all oppressed islamists in the region. (after all, its not his country). They come en masse.
12) The region goes strangely quiet for about a year...
13) the U.S. elects a democratic presidentrix and re-elects a democratic house and senate.
13) 8 months after the election Los Angeles, New York, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago, Boston, Washington D.C. and just for good measure Witchita KS disappear in a simultaneous fireball. You know the rest of the story...
14) What's left of the democratic leadership emplores the remainder of the nation to gnash their teeth in utter impotence along with them. The meme then changes to "...Why didn't Bushitler stop this when he had the chance? He already had troops in Iraq. The Iraqis had the WMD's in 2003...everyone knew it!!!"
The irony will be so thick...(in the immortal words of Johnny Carson)...you could whack it with a broom.
A really cheery future don't you think?
I pray to my and every "other" possible God and universal entitiy that may hold some power in the collective (thats for you agnostics out there) that this eventuality is pure fiction. We, as a nation, couldn't be as weak-minded, limp-spined or any other adjective-nouned descriptive you care to apply to us to allow this to happen. Write your representitive, blog, write your local paper's editorial board (not the PI), put a sign in your front yard etc... Do anything you have the power to do to get the truth out there. Retreat might make the feel-gooders among us happy for the next year or two, but its the couple after that where it gets a bit sketchy in my book.
In opposing this, they are opposing reinforcing our troops. We need to call it what it is, a reinforcement.
Throughout the history of our wars, back when we actually tried to win them, reinforcements were sent in as needed and we won.
Opposing this reinforcement just tells me that the Democrats, save 2 and 17 hopefully soon to be ex-Republicans, are actually opposed to Victory! Anything to bring about failure.
Sadly, even though non-binding, it is just another step closer to passing the fight off on our grandchildren who will be facing these animals years now when they have grown stronger and will end up costing more blood, most likely in our own streets.
On another note, anybody know why Baird didn't vote?
In the immortal words of Herm Edwards (New York Jets):
"...You play to WIN the game!!!"
This, unfortunately, is no game. For some eccentric old coach to cut his own team's funding to make some misguided point makes him a fool and a loser. For a former military member (now congressman) to espouse a "slow bleed" strategy relative to our fighting forces in the battle theater is astounding and reprehensible. It shows a clear absence of any introspection or personal, or for that matter historical context. Anyone who has signed-on to this misguided and ill-conceived ideology should live to dream every night seeing each and every face of the brave soldiers they condemn to an unwarranted fait. Beyond that, they should (if my sad fatalist eventuality comes) be forced to publically admit that they were personally responsible for the deaths of millions of American citizens for failing to live up to the duty for which they were elected...to serve the interests of their constituents. Not the least of which is "...LIFE, liberty etc. etc etc"...most importantly of course, LIFE. Play to win the game or get off the friggin playground you weasely little wastes of air.
by the way, wanted to clarify my use of "fait".
fait accompli \fay-tah-kom-PLEE; fet-ah-\, noun;
plural faits accomplis \same or -PLEEZ\:
An accomplished and presumably irreversible deed or fact.
its about the context after all...
k2 @ 11.
Not sure about all the details contained in your predictions, but I have seen plenty of evidence that radical Islam is on the move all over the world, and I agree with you that they will be knocking on our door someday soon if we duck and run in Iraq.
Take a look at the history of the middle east. Which group has a history of starting violence? Israel just responds to attacks, or sometimes takes action with preemtive stirkes.
Look at other places in the world (South America, Africa, etc.), and you'll see radical Islamists killing, burning, and destroying.
Lets compare Muslims (radical Islamists) to Christians for instance.
How often do Christians kill Muslims for just having a Koran in their hand? How often do Christians kill Muslims just for being Mulsims? How many Muslim houses have been burned down by Christians just because they were Muslims? How many Muslim families have been slaughtered by Christians just because they were Muslims? When was the last time you saw a Chrsitian fly a jet into a buliding? Or detonate a car bomb in a major city? Have you ever seen mobs of Christians rioting and burning in the streets (i.e., France after the Allah cartoon) for one week because someone made fun of Jesus Christ? If Christians behaved the way radical Islamists did, there would probably be nothing left in this country.
Interesting...replace Christian with Jew in the above paragraph.
How can people in this country be so blind?
We no longer live in a world where we can just "hide" on our continent and hope the radical Isalmists will just forget about us. Aint gonna happen. And, by the way, they hated us before we came to the middle east.
Eventaully, if we don't stand up to them, it's just a matter of time before we start having car bombs once a week in major cities all over the U.S. It may take time, but it's a very real possibility.
Your fourteen-point scenario is absurd. Do you remember the scenario that the President and others painted for Iraq in the months leading up to the war?
Iraq was going to greet the American soldiers as liberators. Needless to say, that did not happen.
Okay, k2, given your scenario above: Should the United States remain in Iraq forever?
Your post is filled with so much prejudice, bigotry & irrational fear against Islam that I can understand why the Muslims distrust their conservative liberators.
> Take a look at the history of the middle east. Which group has a history of starting violence? Israel just responds to attacks, or sometimes takes action with preemtive stirkes.
You are seriously misinformed about the nature of Israel's conflicts with its neighbors. There's plenty of aggression and bloodshed on both sides. Israel is by no means an innocent nation in regards to its treatment of Muslims.
> Look at other places in the world (South America, Africa, etc.), and you'll see radical Islamists killing, burning, and destroying.
The United States of America has a long history of killing, burning and destroying in both South America and Africa. Do I have to teach you the history of your own country?
> Lets compare Muslims (radical Islamists) to Christians for instance.
> How often do Christians kill Muslims for just having a Koran in their hand?
Christians began killing Muslims aggressively during the Crusades and they continued this custom during the colonial era and it is still happening today in Iraq.
> How often do Christians kill Muslims just for being Mulsims?
Since 9/11, Christians have killed Muslims simply for being Muslim on a daily basis. See Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. We Christians call such killing "Collateral damage" and never count the body bags.
> How many Muslim houses have been burned down by Christians just because they were Muslims? How many Muslim families have been slaughtered by Christians just because they were Muslims?
Plenty of Muslims' houses were bombed and burned down by American bombs dropped by American jets paid for by Christian taxpayers.
The number of Muslims slaughtered by Christians since 9/11 is estimated between 50,000 and 650,000. That's a pretty big number.
> When was the last time you saw a Chrsitian fly a jet into a buliding? Or detonate a car bomb in a major city?
Christians don't fly jets into buildings or detonate car bombs. Christians don't need to because America spends $500 billion a year on its military and therefore can drop bombs on buildings with its bombers and detonate explosives in major cities with its helicopters.
> Have you ever seen mobs of Christians rioting and burning in the streets (i.e., France after the Allah cartoon) for one week because someone made fun of Jesus Christ? If Christians behaved the way radical Islamists did, there would probably be nothing left in this country.
I will tell you one thing which Christians did do: They fought a major war over the question of whether one group of wealthy Christians could continue to own slaves. Over 600,000 Christians died in that war and often people of the same faith were busy killing each other. The nation just barely survived because Abraham Lincoln was the right man at the right time, the greatest president America has ever had (until George WMD Bush, that is ...).
> How can people in this country be so blind?
Ignorant bigots are blinded by their own prejudice, ignorance, and irrational fear.
> We no longer live in a world where we can just "hide" on our continent and hope the radical Isalmists will just forget about us. Aint gonna happen. And, by the way, they hated us before we came to the middle east.
You contradict the administration when you claim they hated us before we came to the middle east. The President claimed that the Muslims would love us because we were their liberators.
And ... if all of the Muslims hated us, how is it that Saddam Hussein was America's ally for so long?
For those of you conservatives who would like to keep a daily tally of how much you & the president loves our troops, I encourage you to visit this website:
Iraq Coalition Casaulty Count
3,133 soldiers have already died. You conservatives are loving the soldiers to death.
How many more?
Will the Iraq WMD Memorial have six thousand names carved into its black granite?
The Americans who really love the troops would prefer that they return home as soon as possible so that they may live. No more American soldiers should die for the Iraq failure.
Sixty-nine soldiers from Washington (state) have died since the war began. You can read their names here:
Losses by State
How many more citizens of Washington are you willing to sacrifice for Iraq?
Okay, conservatives, what is the depth of your committment: 3,000 have died already; how many more?
Do YOU remember South Viet Nam and Cambodia? I certainly do. I remember being astounded watching a war micro-managed by clueless Congressmen. I remember the shock when they pulled funding and we left. And I remember the shame as millions of South Vietnamese and Cambodians died because of our cowardly actions. It's dejavu time. The Liberals remember how it worked then, and they're doing it again. And the really disgusting thing is, they don't really care whether we stay or leave Iraq. They care only about their hate for Bush and all things convervative. They care only for their lust for power and regaining the White House, and they'll do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal, not giving a thought to the repercussions it will cause to their own country.
20. There is an old saying that is good for written opinionas well as speech. "Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" David Mathews?
21. We can pull out of Iraq now that Bush has divided up the oil rights among the big 5. Believe they have the rights for the next 30 years with 70% of the profits. Nothing like screwing the Iraqi people twice. Let's stop killing our military needlessly.
A few historical facts: Abe Lincoln was a Republican. There was a peace movement at the onset of the Civil war, which was NOT started over slavery. Honest Abe had these early Hippys labeled as traitors, and jailed. Most ran to Canada.
We lost over 3,000 troops on a gloomy morning in Normandy, a nice tropic day at Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, Gettysburg, Ardenes, etc.
This is war, and Bin Ladin was right, as Americans no longer have the stomach for a fight. Not our Troops mind you, they are doing the job and know what the game is about. It is the sniffling girly/men, manly/girls of this pampered,self important generation that is unwilling to protect her own children.
K2 at #11 the only thing I see different with your predictions is that the genocide will start as we start to pull out, because the Militias (and Iran) will know that the Democrats in Congress have no balls for the fight and will not intervene.
David Matthews at #18 You want us to go to a site that tells us the death toll. Why when the media tells us about it every single day? I hate to tell you, but that is part of war and I will tell you this also, we have lost less soldiers in this war in the amount of time it has gone on that we did in the Amercian Revolution, the Civil War, World War 1 and 2, Korea and Vietnam. I know you don't want to be disturbed with historical facts, it just gets in the way of your socialistic agenda. Also you mentioned that we were not greeted as liberators well you are full of it. I have served in Iraq and know plenty of Service members who were there when it all kicked off and I could tell you story after story of how they, and I, were greeted by the everyday average Iraqi as a Liberator. I could tell you story after story about how most the Iraqi's truly just want to live in a peaceful existence and raise their family just as I would like to do. I know once again you will probably say something like "why should I believe you when the media and Rep Murtha tell me it is not like that", well I'll I have to say is that the reporters rarely leave the safety of their hotel (God forbid they actually have to deal with the heat) and Murtha has come up with his own lame brain legislation that stops giving the training and equipment to our troops so therefore President Bush would have no choice but to surrender. If that is not treasonous and an attempt to overthrow the Executive branch I do not know what is. Remember Congress is only allowed to authorize the use of force and they can deal with funding, but it is the job of the executive branch to run the war.
24. I am not surprised that my worthless Representative Brian Baird would not take a stand. He never does. I am surprised that he did not just vote "present" that is his typical deal. This is the same Representative that after the last census six years ago still has not updated his Congressional email to allow emails from constituents, like myself, that were added when his district was redrawn.
25. It's pretty simple. The GUN sell's are up in the US.
STFU. Really. You're stale, boring and a waste of bandwidth.
You've posted your positions ad nauseam, and bring nothing new to the table.
Everybody else is wrong. We got it.
Now just shut up already.
> We can pull out of Iraq now that Bush has divided up the oil rights among the big 5. Believe they have the rights for the next 30 years with 70% of the profits. Nothing like screwing the Iraqi people twice. Let's stop killing our military needlessly.
Those oil rights exists only while the United States remains in military and political control over Iraq. The day that the last American troop leaves Iraq is the day that all of the oil contracts become so much worthless paper.
Those American troops are dying for oil and nothing else.
28. J.Morton at #21. Please tell us where you found these "facts". The last I heard, no US company was getting a drop of Iraqi oil, and that ALL proceeds are to remain in the control of the elected Iraqi Government. - Unfair as that is.
Now you have my hopes up.
> It is the sniffling girly/men, manly/girls of this pampered,self important generation that is unwilling to protect her own children.(/b>
I can see that allowing American soldiers to die needlessly is a test of manliness on your own part.
If you really want to test your manliness, though, why do you go to Iraq yourself and fight your enemies face-to-face?
> There is an old saying that is good for written opinionas well as speech. "Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" David Mathews?
There is also another old saying: Tis better to be thought a bigot than to for a conservative to open his/her mouth and remove any shadow of a doubt.
> Do YOU remember South Viet Nam and Cambodia?
Vietnam and Iraq have a whole lot in common, don't they?
Hello David, et al.:
Any thread with you and you on it is a hoot. A couple of questions:
Would the world be better and safer if:
1. The US is forced out of Iraq and that exit is construed as a defeat, like in Viet Nam?
2. Sharia law becomes the primarily law in the US?
Let the games begin.
1. The world is not safewith America in Iraq. If America leaves Iraq the world will remain dangerous.
2. Sharia law isn't going to become to primary law of the U.S., ever. This is true whether America stays in Iraq or leaves.
@16 Should the United States remain in Iraq forever?
Should the United States remain in Germany forever?
35. K2, Your time line might be off by a few minutes here or there, but otherwise you're pretty much right on. My only wish is the Nancy Pelosi be right in the middle of it all if it should happen. (Hillary will be no where to be found.)
36. Michael, Our facility in Germany was bombed twice by the Baader Meinhoff gang in 1971. (The second time destroyed the facility and killed several people.) That was decades after the end of WW-II.
Terrorism is nothing new, it's just a concept Democrats never have been able to comprehend. (Unless you consider Bill having to occasionally live with Hillary.)
37. Stefan, please ban this DM jerk. There's only so long one can ignore a mosquito. This self-righteous punk obviously is an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. What a disgusting human being he is. DM, perhaps you would care to demonstrate your manliness and call me names in person. I grew up in HELL, boy. The CD in the 206, tough guy. I was targeted, bullied and attacked for the color of my skin. The ice cream man in my 'hood was stabbed multiple times. I learned how to resolve things the old school way. With arms: A left arm and a right arm. 6'2" 245lbs of urban fury ready willing and able to teach you an up close and personal lesson in humility. I have no compunction whatsoever of getting 100% up in your face and telling you EGG-ZACTLY what I think of punk a__z filth like you. Bring it or be gone you diseased, socialist puke!
38. David M: You ask what do Viet Nam and Iraq have in common? Easy: Liberal Democrat (and some RINO) Treason.
Hi David, et al:
You didn't answer my second question:
Would the world be better and safer if:
2. Sharia law becomes the primarily law in the US?
I didn't ask if it were likely, I'm asking your opinion. Would the US operate better under Sharia law?
You really didn't answer my first question either. Let me refine it:
". The world is not safewith America in Iraq. If America leaves Iraq the world will remain dangerous."
The refinement is this. Is the world more dangerous if the US is not confronting Islaomfacists? Should the US not confront Islamofacists and if your answer is no, what should be done about Islamofacists, if anything?
> Stefan, please ban this DM jerk. There's only so long one can ignore a mosquito. This self-righteous punk obviously is an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. What a disgusting human being he is. DM, perhaps you would care to demonstrate your manliness and call me names in person. I grew up in HELL, boy. The CD in the 206, tough guy. I was targeted, bullied and attacked for the color of my skin. The ice cream man in my 'hood was stabbed multiple times. I learned how to resolve things the old school way. With arms: A left arm and a right arm. 6'2" 245lbs of urban fury ready willing and able to teach you an up close and personal lesson in humility. I have no compunction whatsoever of getting 100% up in your face and telling you EGG-ZACTLY what I think of punk a__z filth like you. Bring it or be gone you diseased, socialist puke!
Violence is a conservative value, isn't it?
I wonder what is wrong with all of these conservatives and they confess their troubles to me.
Is there anything else about your life which you would like to talk about, anonymous threatening guy?
Anyhow, if you are such a bold person why don't you use your real name? Only a coward would speak so boldly anonymously.
What's your name? Where do you live?
Don't worry, I don't have any desire to meet you. But bold people without names are seldom so bold or so tough as they claim.
> didn't ask if it were likely, I'm asking your opinion. Would the US operate better under Sharia law?
Nor is anyone in this world proposing that America adopt Sharia law. None of the Muslims have expressed their desire for this outcome. Osama Bin Laden never advocated that America adopt Sharia law.
> The refinement is this. Is the world more dangerous if the US is not confronting Islaomfacists? Should the US not confront Islamofacists and if your answer is no, what should be done about Islamofacists, if anything?
a. The world is not safer because of America's war in Iraq.
b. Fighting against the islamofascists ended a long time ago. The Afghanistan war was against the Taliban and the Terrorists. America mishandled that war and Osama escaped. Since that time, the islamofascists have escaped confrontation because of America's neocon neocolonial war in Iraq.
c. America can handle the islamofascists effectively without use of the military. America can protect itself without dropping bombs on Iraqi children.
d. America should, and will, leave the Middle East. This is not a matter of choice. America cannot stay in the Middle East forever. Our troops will come home and it is best that they come home now while they can still leave in an honorable fashion.
katomar @ #19. You're right on but let me take it a little further. The dems need Iraq to go badly in order for them to win the '08 election and get Hillary, Obama or Edwards in as president. These phony americans are doing everything possible to embarrass Bush on this war and they need a defeat in Iraq. They don't care what the end result is. If a million people get slaughtered - who cares if they can win the presidency. Pelosi and company are going to do everything possible to defeat Bush because that is who they think is the enemy not some bomb carrying muslim.
They will also want to destroy the economy. This will be the icing on the cake. They will do this by raising taxes and enforcing global warming restrictions. I sometimes think these left wingnuts are more dangerous to our country than the terrorists.
Hi David, et al:
I guess you missed bin asshole's letter to the American people:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.
Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?
(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.
(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.
(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.
If you will lie about bin asshole's intentions, of course, you will lie about Islamofacists.
44. So, uh, Matthews, how much is al Qaeda paying you, anyway?
> So, uh, Matthews, how much is al Qaeda paying you, anyway?
I know: the thought of peace and an end to war is very terrifying to the conservatives.
Conservatives want to keep fighting, keep killing, and for our soldiers to keep dying.
That's patriotism for you. Let me wave the flag.
The Muslims do make some valid criticisms of American culture. Christians make similar criticisms of American culture, too, except in cases where their patriotic zeal blinds their eyes to America's sins.
Now, WVH, do you really believe that America is a sinless country?
Do you believe that America is above criticism?
47. WVH: I was just about to comment on how much Bin Laden's points mirror David's, made ad naseum on this blog, and he beat me to it! Thank you, David, for clearing up any misgivings we had about your true leanings. I think a cave in Afghanistan would fit your environmental and political leanings just perfectly. Go for it!
No, uh, Matthews... you DON'T know that... because YOUR way will lead to unbelievable slaughter.
And when it does, you'll be back here trying to justify your position while you blame it on "conservatives."
> WVH: I was just about to comment on how much Bin Laden's points mirror David's, made ad naseum on this blog, and he beat me to it! Thank you, David, for clearing up any misgivings we had about your true leanings. I think a cave in Afghanistan would fit your environmental and political leanings just perfectly. Go for it!
Does the United States of America engage in morally reprehensible and evil activities? Yes!
Christians have said so for years. Conservatives say so, too, when not engaged in patriotic xenophobia.
> because YOUR way will lead to unbelievable slaughter.
Conservatives are terrified of peace. Conservatives are never truly happy except when their are engaged in the business of killing their enemies, and civilians killed in the crossfire are always "collateral damage".
The United States of America has committed a crime against Iraq. It is time for America to leave. America cannot make the situation any better but America certainly can make the situation worse.
The United States of America is a destabilizing force in the Middle East. America has performed a 9/11 on an entire country and left a festering sore in the Middle East.
George WMD Bush has killed more civilians than Osama Bin Laden. How many more Muslims have to die because of George Bush's crime?
The following is excerpted from an excellent commentary by Michael Nowak on National Review Online. The entire article is available at http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTcxYmQ1N2QyMzM3ZGEyNGRmZWRkN2Q2MGJlYWM5Mjg=
"In Congress, Democrats (and the occasional Republican like Maineís Chuck Hagel) would fulfill the prediction of Osama bin Laden, who said that Americans would lose heart and go home. This is the road the Democrats put us on on Friday. They have marched into untenable territory, and they have now exposed their flank to a withering enfilade. Once again, they have repeated their deed of 39 years ago, turning victory into defeat, setting the stage for last-minute departures by helicopter, banging with rifles the up-reached hands of friends of the United States, who are begging not to be abandoned.
"I thought that day that that obscene, humiliating, disgraceful departure from the United States embassy in Saigon was the most dishonorable day in American history. I still feel sick thinking about it.
"That dishonor was brought about by a Congress determined to stop funding a war that had turned into its final lap toward victory. An arrogant Democratic Congress abandoned several million friends of the United States to torture, imprisonment, death. Two millions took desperate flight by sea upon open rafts or flimsy junks, to be set upon by pirates as well as pursuing foes.
"Until now, I had resisted comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq. The dissimilarities are immense. They are as different as night and day. Besides, the victories won and the difficulties successfully overcome in Iraq, by sheer bravery and persistence, have been of historic proportions.
"But now the actions of our own Congress have made the sickening memories of that cowardly flight from Saigon come pouring back, with all their now forgotten shame and dishonor.
"Will the Democratic party ó of which I was once a member ó never learn? Will it lurch from generation to generation turning victory into dishonor and shame? That once brave and courageous party now boasts, boasts, of gambling on American defeat. Of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Again.
"Mercifully, though, the Democrats do not have the White House and are not commanding this war. Donít count out the Home of the Brave yet ó remember that resolution is nonbinding.
"This Presidentís Day weekend, I canít help but give thanks for our current one, brave and resolute, disregarding all the ugly and contemptuous vilification turned against him, firm in the knowledge that Providence favors the free.
"Providence is no Pollyanna, and the good guys by no means always win. (Peek at Godís own Son on the cross). Yet I will be terribly surprised if, perhaps sooner rather than later (and for sure in the long serene light of history), this brave manís resolution is cause for national pride and celebration. The very jeers of his critics while he lived will become the measure of the valor he has shown.
"Let historians look back on my words with mockery if they will. I would rather stand at this presidentís side any day, than among those who for the second time bring dishonor upon this nation."
The Democrats need this war to continue at least until the 2008 election is over. They won't kill their percieved golden goose.
They will continue to spit in the faces of our troops, not fund them, talk talk and no talk, but they have no exit plan or for that matter the capabilty to pull one off.
They are too worried about health care, taxing the heck out of everyone, and Bush Hate to get anything at all done in this session.
The Troops over there will get the support they need from the Defense department, despite Pelosi's misguided warriors.
Hell they can't even decide among their own how to build a 2.5 Billion dollar viaduct replacement, after years of calling it a life or death emergency.
You think they could take over a war and be more successful?
> You think they could take over a war and be more successful?
Are you actually claiming that George WMD Bush and the Republicans have led a successful war in Iraq?
Okay, gs and Steve Beren: How long are you willing to allow the Iraq war to last?
How many more soldiers have to die for the lost cause of Iraq?
Please specify the limits of your committment.
The liberation of Iraq is a central front in the war against terrorism, not a distraction from it. The establishment and stabilization of democracy in Iraq is a legitimate and important goal in the war against Islamic fascism.
The liberation of Iraq is a war of necessity, not a war of choice, because we must deal with the root causes of terrorism, not merely its symptoms. The backwardness and oppression and lack of freedom in the Middle East are a breeding ground for terrorism.
The best way to attack terrorism at its roots is to spread freedom and democracy and modernity in the Middle East, breaking the bonds of oppression and exploitation that fuel a hateful ideology.
The Islamic fascists know the importance of stopping the establishment of democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. A key objective for them is to cause failure of democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Unfortunately, 99% of the Democratic Party senators and congressmen have demonstrated in the past two days that they don't understand how crucial it is for democracy to succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Sadly, yesterday 17 Republican congressmen and today 7 Republican senators (Specter, Collins, Snowe, Hagel, Coleman, Smith, Warner) joined the Democrats in their failure to support the mission of our troops in Iraq. (Credit must by given to Senator Lieberman, Congressman Taylor, and Congressman Marshall for voting for principle on this most important issue, regardless of party affiliation).
Again, the best way to attack terrorism at its roots is to spread freedom and democracy and modernity in the Middle East, breaking the bonds of oppression and exploitation that fuel a hateful ideology.
In that sense, Iraq is connected to 9/11, just as the entire Middle East is connected to 9/11. The oppression and lack of modernity in the Middle East, pervasive and powerful, is connected to 9/11 through a thousand threads of hatred, brutality, and propaganda. The oppression of the Muslim and Arab people by their own governments is truly the breeding ground for terrorism.
This is not a war "against Iraq" - it is a war for the freedom of the Iraqi people. If successful, it will have a salutary affect on the rest of the region. For it is also Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt and other repressive governments that oppress their own people, deny liberty, subjugate women, and propagandize against the West, democracy, and against Judaism and Christianity. There is justice and nobility in the liberation of Iraq.
This war on terror - the war against Islamic fascism - will be long and difficult, because it is much broader than Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not a matter of "taking out" an individual dictator or terrorist, but a matter of defeating a political movement aimed at conquest and power. "Taking out" Osama Bin Laden or any other individual dictator or terrorist is a part of the war, but it cannot substitute for victory.
Victory also includes stopping the war drive of the Iranian mullahs, preventing them from acquiring nuclear weapons, and helping the Iranian people win the democracy and freedom they deserve. And, above all, victory means a fundamental political transformation throughout the Middle East.
Defeat by such an enemy as Islamic fascism is unacceptable, unthinkable. The U.S.-led war against terrorism is justified and a noble effort, one that will change the course of history.
Hi David, et al:
In Bin asshole's letter to Americans, he not only critiques America, but he says the following:
If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight
with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete
trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is
addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more
right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so
that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give
you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And
remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance
of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]
So, you truth evading weasel, he wants to conquer America and impose the 13th century conditions he is so in love with.
I guess I have to call you the worst name I can think of, you secular progressive weasel. You never met a truth you didn't try to evade.
To reiterate and emphasize an earlier point: the war against Islamic fascism will be long and difficult.
How long? how difficult? how expensive? Those are the wrong questions to ask, for if the war is justified and noble, no cost is too great.
What about defeat? How expensive would defeat be - in terms of lives, resources, freedoms, and future security? How difficult would defeat be - in terms of the weakening of world security and in terms of the strengthening of the Islamic fascist movement?
How long should the Union, led by President Lincoln, have fought to defeat the Confederate slavocracy? At what point should the length of the war been considered a worse alternative than the victory and continuation of slavery?
How long should the United States and its allies have fought Nazism, Fascism, and Japanese imperialism? At what point should the length of the war been considered a worse altertnative than a victory and world domination by Germany, Italy, and Japan?
The moral value of any war is determined by the justice and nobility of the cause. If a war is justified, noble, and necessary, no cost is too great, no length of time is too long.
The Democrats avoid debating the merits of the war against Islamic fascism, retreat into defeatism, and wrongly interpret the results of the 2006 elections. The American people are disatisfied with the progress being made in the war, but oppose defeat, support the troops, oppose immediate withdrawl, and oppose a cutoff of funds.
PeaceNiks like you don't stop people like Bin Laden. He was emboldened when the Soviets left Afganistan. He and his followers will run wild in the streets if we leave Iraq.
Your party is giving him hope again, hope that we will cut and run. Why not just give him a skyscraper office in NY while you're at it. Or maybe he can talk at the Democrats national convention.
But yours is a party of talk and power, not action. Your party is not fooling anyone, they can not and will not cut and run, because you absolutely need this war to get elected in 2008.
Sad but true. If any of your candidates had an Iraq exit plan, it would be offered now, but all we will see is nonbinding flapcrap until 2008.
Blah Blah Blah
> So, you truth evading weasel, he wants to conquer America and impose the 13th century conditions he is so in love with.
Do I need to state the obvious, WVH?
Osama doesn't have an air force. Osama doesn't have a navy. Osama doesn't have an army.
In other words: Osama cannot conquer the United States of America.
More evidence against this irrational fear of a mouse: The world's #1 superpower cannot conquer Iraq. How then could anyone conquer America?
Conservatives are governed by their irrational fears. A man who lives in a cave cannot conquer the United States of America.
> Sad but true. If any of your candidates had an Iraq exit plan, it would be offered now, but all we will see is nonbinding flapcrap until 2008.
I hate to burst your bubble, GS, but my party is the Republican party. The neocons and George WMD Bush's eternal war have driven me away from the Republicans, so I did vote Democrat in the last election and will likely do so again in 2008.
Does George W. Bush have an exit plan for Iraq?
Does the Republican party have an exit plan for Iraq?
Or do the Republicans intend to allow soldiers to continue during in Iraq at the rate of 2 - 3 a day until a Democrat becomes President and has no choice except to clean up this mess?
That last sentence:
> Or do the Republicans intend to allow soldiers to continue during in Iraq at the rate of 2 - 3 a day until a Democrat becomes President and has no choice except to clean up this mess?
should read ...
> Or do the Republicans intend to allow soldiers to continue dying in Iraq at the rate of 2 - 3 a day until a Democrat becomes President and has no choice except to clean up this mess?
Hi David, et al:
I understand your leader Bin Asshole has issued a
Fatwah. Since you have studied Islam extensively and Bin Asshole is not only your leader, but a spiritual leader to millions. This is what he says:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those
(believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely,
Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]
"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who
disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah
e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is
indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]
So, I guess your spiritual leader, like all cowards, will sit in his hole and call others to die. I imagine you will use the preceeding coment to take a swipe at Americans. It has always amazed me about Hamas and the rest of their ilk, how their fat assed leaders sit at home with plasma tvs and cause some of the best and the brightest of their children to blow themselves up. They should put down that remote and be leading the charge. Disgusting cowards.
David M: Osama doesn't NEED to conquer America. The Liberals will do that for him from within.
GS, Steve Beren, WVH, great comments all.
63. Folks, don't get too worked up over Dave Mathews' comments. WE know he hates Bush more than he loves his country, which is pretty easy for him to do because he doens't love his country very much. It's the same liberal socialist line about oil and and Bush's buddies bla bla bla. It's rubbish, nonsense and not worth wasting words on. What we REAL freedom loving Americans need to do is get something going in this country on a national scale that will show socialists like Dave that we will not be giving up our country so easily. You socialists want a fight for the future of our free nation? Bring it on!
Since the Qur'an has existed for fourteen hundred years how is it that George WMD Bush was unaware of these passages before engaging in an aggressive war of conquest against Iraq?
If the Muslims are really such terrible people why would George WMD Bush attempt to give them freedom & democracy?
The Muslims know that their alleged American liberators are filled with prejudice, bigotry & irrational hatred. How then could they treat Americans as liberators rather than a potentially genocidal enemy of Muslims everywhere.
The United States of America has already killed over 150,000 Iraqis, how is it then that the Muslims are the world's violent people?
The United States of America dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan and vaporized over 100,000 Japanese civilians, how then are the Muslims the world's most violent people?
Which David forgot to mention ended World War II and caused the Japanese to surrender. They are now close friends.
David is a misguided democrat, Cum By ahhhhhhh ing will win peace. No brother, it will cause Bin Laden to flourish.
He flourished throughout the Clinton administration, and was free to do so. After 9/11 he has had to hide, and has been in hiding and will most likely be in hiding until he dies.
You want to pull out of Iraq and turn it over to these zealots'.
> You want to pull out of Iraq and turn it over to these zealots'.
I really am astonished by this sort of argument, GS.
The Iraq war has to end sometime. When shall it end?
If all the Muslims are violent, terrible people the war would seem a lost cause from the outset. So how many more American soldiers are you willing to sacrifice for a lost cause?
Osama Bin Laden was born in Saudi Arabia, the majority of his financing comes from Saudi Arabia, and the majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia.
The Iraq war has nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11.
I think its crystal clear from the above that David never met a high horse he didn't like.
I also find it amazing how he can type and flail his arms around wildly at the same time.
I have a similar story to YourLifeisMyFault although more suburban and less diverse. I was just plain poor. David said that "violence is a conservative value". No David, that is incorrect. Conservatives have a basis for their convictions, whether founded on religious footing or other more "worldly" sources. Conversation, deliberation and dialogue are always preferred means to a peaceful end to an engaged conflict. The difference between your thought process and that of a conservative is that for the conservative there are actions, circumstances and eventualities posed by an antagonist who's outcomes are not negotiable. In simpler terms, there is a line across which there are consequences. Everything over that line ARE things worth fighting for. And the point at which those conversations, deliberations and dialogues cross that line, we will fight to preserve the riteous values on which our historic national success was founded.
Those on your side of the ideological aisle have seemingly no basis for argument other than an overwhelming, egalitarian sense of "good" for all and a deep guilt psychosis that prevents you from being powerful or supporting anything that even resembles power...hence the liberal mistrust for "corporation" or "big 'fill in industry here'".
Its silly to try and debate the Iraq situation with you as you have no interest in delving into micro-economic, Arab/Persian societal foundations or guiding religious doctrine(s) that form the basis for all interations with "the west".
'David's hands fly up in a fit of rage not really understading why but fully committed to the anger that is filling his body at this very moment' It's OK David, I am mocking you...
> Its silly to try and debate the Iraq situation with you as you have no interest in delving into micro-economic, Arab/Persian societal foundations or guiding religious doctrine(s) that form the basis for all interations with "the west".
Okay, k2, let's delve into micro-economics, Arab/Persian societal foundations, and guilding religious doctrines.
I will listen if you will speak.
David, First and foremost Al-Qaeda had everything to do with 9/11.
And like it or not, Abu Musab al Zarquawi (may his soul rest in hell along side Saddam) found it his mission to fight in Iraq but will not take another Life.
I am really astonished by this leave now sort of argument, DM.
Tell me when you propose to pull all the troops out of Iraq
What specifically do you think will happen to Iraq if we leave before the Iraq Government can defend themselves.
...and David if you're wondering why I didn't directly address the questions of the scenario "painted" prior to the Iraq invasion or us being in Iraq "forever"...
...because it has NO bearing on how we proceed going forward. David, lets solve the problems we're facing today. For instance, I don't think LB Johnson's handling of the Vietnam conflict has any direct impact on specific logistical decisions that need to be made in Iraq. Things said 4 or 40 years ago cannot help us determine a what is 100% correct right now.
Historical relavence guidelines:
Macroelements = possible equation
microelements = bupkis...
Bush will have to live with his legacy. As for me, I could give a rat's rectum what it turns out to be.
as i see you're monitoring the situation, with which topic would you like to begin?
Also, for everyone's benefit, please list your accomplishments/degrees/fields of study relative to each topic listed above and the level of mastery attained therein so I might better target my commentary to the level of comprehension.
Don't sweat it. Its not worth my or anyone else's time on this posting. If I thought it would do some good, I may think about it but based on your unfounded rantings and the incomprehensible logic contained in those rantings, I'm not willing to waste my time.
again...David...its OK. I AM mocking you.
Might I suggest some light reading tonight? Maybe start with Robert Spencer's latest it delves quite deeply into one of the subject areas we discussed above.
73. The surge vote: EMPTYGESTURE.COM
EMPTYPARTY.COM is also available, maybe the Democraps should grab it.
If they don't like us being in Iraq, then get us the out with a plan or shut up.
IT IS affecting our troops moral, Side tracking the Iraq government, and IT IS embolding our enemy.
Detective Dipshit: "Violence is a conservative value, isn't it?"
Who said I was a conservative? Did I say that? Show me where I stated that I was a conservative. Straw Man, you pathetic troll boy. You DO know what a Straw Man is, right?
Violence is a Darwinian value, stoo-pid. I ADAPTED to my environment in order to SURVIVE you FREAKING COWARD!! You're a Darwinian puke so this can't possibly be a problem for you. The Darwinian paradigm promotes racism, sexism and genocide, so the inconvenient truth about you is you're a defender of all of the aforementioned. And you're too much of an intellectual COWARD to admit it.
You wouldn't last through lunch in the CD, punk. By the way: Conservatives are few and far between in the 'hood. How could you NOT know this??
"I wonder what is wrong with all of these conservatives and they confess their troubles to me."
Oh, did I confess to the Simpson murders and miss it? You're such a freaking TROLL-ass PUNK that you can't even differentiate between a statement about the culture I grew up in and an actual confession.
"Anyhow, if you are such a bold person why don't you use your real name? Only a coward would speak so boldly anonymously. What's your name? Where do you live?"
Travel to Seattle and find out how bold I am. We'll meet and you can tell me all about how wrong I am about everything and call me all of your little passive aggressive names. See, I simply want to know if you have the COURAGE to actually say the shit real time that you say here. I have my answer, gutless.
Revealing my name and where I live will simply expose myself to self-righteous, passive aggressive punk asses like you. The type of filth that throws red paint on armed forces recruitment centers, hijacks email accounts and slashes tires.
COWARDS that practice acts of domestic terrorism 'cause they're too GUTLESS to stand up and be counted in face-to-face meetings. Just like those 3 anti-millitary pukes in West Seattle who didn't say a damn word when I called them on their bullshit REAL TIME. Or the two pencil-necked, HATERS at the library.
"Don't worry, I don't have any desire to meet you. But bold people without names are seldom so bold or so tough as they claim."
You won't meet me by virtue of the fact that you're a gutless, trash-talking piece of crap. How courageous of you to name-call from 3,000 miles away. You're nothing but a cyber-bully and coward. I said my piece. Hopefully, you'll piss of someone in FLA and they'll demonstrate Darwinism in its primal form. Not gentle. But HARD.
The communist are within as shown by the strategy Democrats used to send a message to the enemy in Iraq. "Leave, we will be out of Iraq soon!"
The republicans and a few logical thinking democrats saved the day in the "first round" in process of a "slow bleed" of our military complex. It is the "text book" strategy out of the lefts' playbook of Vietnam. Invented by John Kerry and published by the MSM and CBSABCNBCMSNBCCNN. These folks are bleeding Americans with a constant "guilt trip: every day. You can't blame the folks for "feeling" guilty.
Did you Notice the communist Putan of Russia, last week gathering allies to oppose America's power.
Don't forget the "fear monger" Global Warming Ignorant Albert Gore, this opportunist is now working for the European Union as an adviser on Global Warming. He is providing much smoke for a concerned American during a critical period in America's history. Look at his behavior and size and you must agree he is off his meds.
This is a capitalist nation that must not let the opposition stop the good America will accomplish as we transition into our ever evolving system. Socialism and communism don't work. Tune into the French
As they are realizing that they are sinking in socialism. They are espousing "reform". If you want more socialism than this "nanny state" go north to Canada. Have you noticed they are moving right?
Stop communicating with Ms Mathews; she will go away if we ignore her ignorance!
Notice what happens when you don't engage them. They are gone, can you see her?
Thanks to all who have expressed support for our President George W. Bush and God Bless
America. It will take all of us who don't drink the cool aide to oppose communist, socialist and lefties.
From Orwell's Notes on Nationalism (1946)
By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled "good" or "bad."
**** See "obese americans" and/or "conservatives"[David Matthews]
But secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.
****See David Matthews****
"Nationalism, is inseperable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality."
****See David Matthews Global Warming***
"A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist -- that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating -- but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade."
*****See David Matthews****
"Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also -- since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself -- unshakeably certain of being in the right."
****See David Matthews. FLAGRANT DISHONESTY. He's NEVER wrong. Just ask the self-proclaimed intellectual champion****
"Political or military commentators, like astrologers, can survive almost any mistake, because their more devoted followers do not look to them for an appraisal of the facts but for the stimulation of nationalistic loyalties."
****See David Matthew's BLIND DEVOTION to algore et al.******
His [Chesterson] hold on reality, his literary taste, and even to some extent his moral sense, were dislocated as soon as his nationalistic loyalties were involved."
*****See David Matthews***
"But for an intellectual, transference has an important function which I have already mentioned shortly in connection with Chesterton. It makes it possible for him to be much more nationalistic -- more vulgar, more silly, more malignant, more dishonest -- that he could ever be on behalf of his native country, or any unit of which he had real knowledge."
***See David Matthews****
"In societies such as ours, it is unusual for anyone describable as an intellectual to feel a very deep attachment to his own country. Public opinion -- that is , the section of public opinion of which he as an intellectual is aware -- will not allow him to do so. Most of the people surrounding him are sceptical and disaffected, and he may adopt the same attitude from imitativeness or SHEER COWARDICE: in that case he will have abandoned the form of nationalism that lies nearest to hand without getting any closer to a genuinely internationalist outlook."
***See David Matthews***
"All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage -- torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians -- which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by "our" side.
***See David Matthews blaming America for the atrocities committed by Islamofascists, etc.****
"In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one's own mind."
***See David Matthews--Intellectual COWARD***
"Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered. He SPENDS PART OF HIS TIME IN A FANTASY WORLD in which things happen as they should -- in which, for example, the Spanish Armada was a success or the Russian Revolution was crushed in 1918 -- and he will transfer fragments of this world to the history books whenever possible. Much of the propagandist writing of our time amounts to plain forgery. Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which it is felt ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied."
***See David Matthews****
"The general uncertainty as to what is really happening makes it easier to CLING TO LUNATIC BELIEFS. Since nothing is ever quite proved or disproved, the most unmistakable fact can be impudently denied. MOREOVER, ALTHOUGH ENDLESSLY BROODING ON POWER, VICTORY, DEFEAT, REVENGE, THE NATIONALIST IS OFTEN SOMEWHAT DISINTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD. What he wants is to feel that his own unit is getting the better of some other unit, and he can more easily do this by scoring off an adversary than by examining the facts to see whether they support him."
****See David Matthews****
"SOME NATIONALISTS ARE NOT FAR FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA, LIVING QUITE HAPPILY AMID DREAMS OF POWER AND CONQUEST WHICH HAVE NOT CONNECTION WITH THE PHYSICAL WORLD."
****See Deluded, Schizo, David Matthews****
"But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be HATRED OF WESTERN DEMOCRACY AND ADMIRATION OF TOTALITARIANISM. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are DIRECTED ALMOST ENTIRELY AGAINST BRITAIN AND THE UNITED STATES. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of western countries.
****See America-hater, David Matthews enjoying the comforts of capitalism and freedom like the coward that he is****
"Pacifist literature abounds with equivocal remarks which, if they mean anything, appear to mean that STATESMEN OF THE TYPE OF HITLER ARE PREFERABLE TO THOSE OF THE TYPE OF CHURCHILL, AND THAT VIOLENCE IS PERHAPS EXCUSABLE IF IT IS VIOLENT ENOUGH. After the fall of France, the French pacifists, faced by a real choice which their English colleagues have not had to make, mostly went over to the Nazis, and in England there appears to have been some small overlap of membership between the Peace Pledge Union and the Blackshirts. Pacifist writers have written in praise of Carlyle, one of the intellectual fathers of Fascism. All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty. The mistake was made of pinning this emotion to Hitler, but it could easily be retransfered."
****See David Matthews giving insurgents a free pass******
"Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell ore when the British were driven out of Greece, AND THERE WAS A REMARKABLE UNWILLINGNESS TO BELIEVE IN GOOD NEWS, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but MANY OF THEM COULD NOT HELP GETTING A CERTAIN KICK OUT OF SEEING THEIR OWN COUNTRY HUMILIATED, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain.
****See Self-Righteous, Puke David Matthews****
"The Trotskyist is against Stalin just as the Communist is for him, and, like the majority of Communists, HE WANTS NOT SO MUCH TO ALTER THE EXTERNAL WORLD AS TO FEEL THAT THE BATTLE FOR PRESTIGE IS GOING IN HIS OWN FAVOUR. IN EACH CASE THERE IS THE SAME OBSESSIVE FIXATION ON A SINGLE SUBJECT, THE SAME INABILITY TO FORM A GENUINELY RATIONAL OPINION BASED ON PROBABILITIES."
****See Blind Follower of Global Warming, David Matthews****
"One prod to the nerve of nationalism, and the intellectual decencies can vanish, the past can be altered, and THE PLAINEST FACTS CAN BE DENIED."
***See intellectual coward; champion of truth and justice, David Matthews***
"PACIFIST. Those who "abjure" violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf."
****Who Could THIS BE?*****
"All of these facts are grossly obvious if one's emotions do not happen to be involved: but to the kind of person named in each case they are also intolerable, and so they have to be denied, AND FALSE THEORIES CONSTRUCTED UPON THEIR DENIAL."
***See intellectual COWARD, David Matthews with another half-baked, poorly thought out theory of everything wrong with america."
"The average intellectual of the Left believed, for instance, that the war was lost in 1940, that the Germans were bound to overrun Egypt in 1942, that the Japanese would never be driven out of the lands they had conquered, and that the Anglo-American bombing offensive was making no impression on Germany. He could believe these things because his hatred for the British ruling class forbade him to admit that British plans could succeed."
****Substitute 2007 for 1940 and British for American and you have...DAVID MATTHEWS BULL SHIT COWARD****
"The point is that as soon as fear, hatred, jealousy and power worship are involved, the sense of reality becomes unhinged. And, as I have pointed out already, the sense of right and wrong becomes unhinged also. There is no crime, absolutely none, that cannot be condoned when "our" side commits it."
****See fear-monger, bigot, and power worshipper DAVID MATTHEWS***
"[if] you are jealous of the wealth and power of America, if you despise Jews, if you have a sentiment of inferiority towards the British ruling class, you cannot get rid of those feelings simply by taking thought. But you can at least recognize that you have them, and prevent them from contaminating your mental processes. The emotional urges which are inescapable, and are perhaps even necessary to political action, should be able to exist side by side with an acceptance of reality. But this, I repeat, needs a moral effort, and contemporary English literature, so far as it is alive at all to the major issues of our time, shows how few of us are prepared to make it."
***See intellectual and MORAL COWARD DAVID MATTHEWS...GUTLESS MOONBAT VOMITTING HIS BULLSHIT FROM 3,000 miles away. You truly are a worthless, self-righteous pile of entropy. Why don't you do your part for the greater good and take your own life? The Co2 and methane emmanating from your worthless, homo sapien organism is warming the planet.
> Also, for everyone's benefit, please list your accomplishments/degrees/fields of study relative to each topic listed above and the level of mastery attained therein so I might better target my commentary to the level of comprehension.
Given that this is the Sound Politics message board please write your dissertation for an elementary school-level comprehension.
I would hate for the rest of the posters to fail to comprehend your great message. Keep it simple for the public's sake.
Hello YourLifeIsMyFault (cute name),
> Revealing my name and where I live will simply expose myself to self-righteous, passive aggressive punk asses like you. The type of filth that throws red paint on armed forces recruitment centers, hijacks email accounts and slashes tires.
> COWARDS that practice acts of domestic terrorism 'cause they're too GUTLESS to stand up and be counted in face-to-face meetings. Just like those 3 anti-millitary pukes in West Seattle who didn't say a damn word when I called them on their bullshit REAL TIME. Or the two pencil-necked, HATERS at the library.
You are saying too much, sir, about your own life and this is not the sort of information which is of great interest to me.
Do you have a political opinion regarding the Iraq war?
Should the Iraq war last forever?
> Tell me when you propose to pull all the troops out of Iraq
> What specifically do you think will happen to Iraq if we leave before the Iraq Government can defend themselves.
Once America pulls out of Iraq there will be violence and the puppet government will likely collapse but eventually the Iraqis will sort through their differences and establish a stable situation.
The United States of America is Iraq's destabilizing force.
Remaining in Iraq forever is not an option.
a fragging vote for all the world to see--especially enemies.
next vote will be for blaze orange targets on our military so that so-called US patriot legislators can take even better aim.
like the police, one wonders how the military can do their job with all the "friendly snipers" at here at home at their backs. what a shame. the sleeping heroes in Arlington and our national cemetaries would never have dreamed of such "support" of the troops!
House Dems cannon fodder for Obama-Clinton ticket.
Note that this vote insulates Obaminton from having to actually stand on all the hot air they've been spewing.
Iraq is succeeding. Iran is moderating. North Korea is capitulating.
Bush policy is a worldwide success and all these Lib-O-Crats can do is hurl marshmellows.
83. I love to listen to socialist liberals contratict themselves. Dave Mathews heartfelt concern that the US Military as alledgedly caused the deaths of 150000 Iraqis ends with the last American air transport carrying the last troops out. After that 150000 dead Iraqis will look like a warm up. Where's the concern Dave, for the several million who will be killed in the civil war you and Nancy Pelosi seem to want to bring about? Where's all the concern for "women's rights" and "human rights" when it comes to post US Iraq? Are you socialists going to just stick your heads in the sand and ignore it? You remind me of Bagadad Bob, Saddam's general in charge of defending Baghdad the day before the US entered Baghdad. Troops? What troops? There are no troops?
So quit faking concern about Iraqis. You could care less about them. Just as you could care less about the Jewish holocost. How does it feel to be on Osama's team Dave? Why don't you go become another American Taliban? That philosophy seems to fit your personality quite well.
You ask good questions:
> Where's the concern Dave, for the several million who will be killed in the civil war you and Nancy Pelosi seem to want to bring about?
Iraqis are dying by the hundreds every day at this point. At this rate millions of Iraqis are going to die under U.S. occupation.
I am confident that Iraqis will settle their disputes more quickly and with less bloodshed once the American troops leave. America is Iraq's destabilizing force.
If America could solve this problem it would have solved it already.
The surge's only real goal is to allow the Iraq war to continue at least until George W. Bush leaves office. George W. Bush would prefer to allow the next president to inherit the mess and the dishonor associated with ending a failed war.
> Where's all the concern for "women's rights" and "human rights" when it comes to post US Iraq?
The Iraq war was never about "women's rights" and "human rights". If America cared about these things it would have brought democracy to Saudi Arabia decades ago. America has a long history of supporting oppressive regimes when they serve American interests. America was an ally of Saddam Hussein for more than a decade, remember the 1980's?
> Are you socialists going to just stick your heads in the sand and ignore it? You remind me of Bagadad Bob, Saddam's general in charge of defending Baghdad the day before the US entered Baghdad. Troops? What troops? There are no troops?
Baghdad Bob was as mistaken about the outcome of the war as George "they'll greet us as liberators" Bush. The truth is the first casaulty of war -- there was plenty of lies and propaganda on all sides.
There are plenty of lies and propaganda coming out of the White House right now. Your partisanship and misguided-patriotism is blinding you to these lies because you really do want to believe that America is doing a good thing.
> How does it feel to be on Osama's team Dave? Why don't you go become another American Taliban? That philosophy seems to fit your personality quite well.
When George W. Bush invaded Iraq he did Osama a great favor. When conservatives engage in prejudice & bigotry against Islam, they are also doing Osama a big favor.
Osama wanted perpetual war. George WMD Bush and the neocons gave it to him.
Osama wanted to make his own struggle into Islam's struggle. Conservatives have done so for him by making an enemy out of a religion which has more than a billion adherents.
You people are on Osama's team. Peace is offensive only to warmongers and bloodthirsty people.
85. anyone seen Ms Mathews, I guess she has gone!
"Once America pulls out of Iraq there will be violence and the puppet government will likely collapse but eventually the Iraqis will sort through their differences and establish a stable situation."
I didn't realize it was so simple. I stand corrected.
So why doesn't your new party quit talking about it and do it. Right now.
Cancel all funding for the military
Disband the defense department if you have to
And be sure to do it now, in time for the 2008 election
> I didn't realize it was so simple. I stand corrected.
You were told that it was going to be simple before the war began by George WMD Bush and his neocon propagandists.
Remember the Iraqis greeting Americans with flowers as liberators?
America's presence in Iraq isn't solving Iraq's problems.
I imagine that Iraq will settle its own problems once America has left. Iraq won't have any choice except to settle its own problems: America's presence is interfering with the problem-solving process and preventing a political solution to the Sunni-Shia-Kurd conflict.
Iraq is a nation of adults. The Iraqis don't need America behaving like an abusive parent. Iraq can, and will, solve its own problems.
America has already killed too many Iraqi children. No purpose is served by continuing to kill Iraqi children for two more years as America waits for George WMD Bush to leave office.
Let's end this war now. And, while we are at it, let's end the Long War now, too.
There are different tactics for AstroTurf efforts as opposed to true grassroots.
grass roots pl.n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) People or society at a local level rather than at the center of major political activity.
www.answers.com/topic/grassroots-democracy - 43k -
Astroturfing describes the posting of supposedly independent messages on Internet boards by interested companies and individuals In American politics, the term is used to describe formal public relations projects which deliberately give the impression that they are spontaneous and populist reactions. The term comes from AstroTurf -- the fake grass used in many indoor American football stadiums. The contrast between truly spontaneous or "grassroots" efforts and an orchestrated public relations campaign, is much like the distinction between real grass and AstroTurf.
A clandestine subversive organization working within a country to further an invading enemy's military and political aims.
Although, mathews, et al. can be a hoot at times. They are very serious about their efforts. Bill is right, reponding to this very evil group is only giving them air space. No where has Mathews, et al. disavowed their fealty to bin asshole, hamas, and others of their ilk. This is a 100 year war with evil and there are a variety of fronts.
> Although, mathews, et al. can be a hoot at times. They are very serious about their efforts. Bill is right, reponding to this very evil group is only giving them air space. No where has Mathews, et al. disavowed their fealty to bin asshole, hamas, and others of their ilk. This is a 100 year war with evil and there are a variety of fronts.
You are speaking in a truly paranoid fashion, WVH. Does the thought of peace terrify you so much that you must imagine that it is coming from Bin Laden or some other ogre of your own imagination?
Conservatives have so wedded themselves to the concept of Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace that they cannot be talked away from the edge of the cliff.
Needless to say: Conservatives possess no Iraqi exit strategy.
If the Iraq war cannot end, it must last forever. How much longer, WVH, how much longer before this war is allowed to end?
How many more soldiers have to die for this cause?
For those unfamilar with the true costs of war, I invite you to read the following:
Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility
If you really love the soldiers you would take them out of harm's way. You conservatives are loving the soldiers to death and that is the most terrible form of love imaginable.
Bring the soldiers home. Let's stop the bleeding.
Hi David, et al:
No, the thought of peace does not scare me in the least. There is evil in the world, just like hitler was pure evil and the bombings that just occurred in Thailand are pure evil. Chamberlin attempted to appease hitler. Your group, hamas, and all the little hitlers lurching about will never be appeased. Sorry evil group, you can call me paranoid all you want, it is simply an attempt to deflect from your evil purpose. Eventually, you and your ilk will be cast into the lake of fire. I will continue to read your rantings, but the fifth column is what the fifth column is.
"You were told that it was going to be simple before the war began by George WMD Bush and his neocon propagandists."
I'm now being told by your side that it is simple to pull out, and I am saying to you and Pelosi go for it.
Cancel all funding for this war, the purse strings are held by your side.
DO IT or shut the F up!
None of your side has the B's to stand by your convictions with action. You know, Action where you actually DO SOMETHING!
Because all you care about is attaining power, not actually solving problems.
All I see from your troop of Bush Hating idiots, who also authorized and voted for this war by the way, is non binding proposition, where's the beef buddy?
You and your party are all talk and no action, always have been and always will be.
To those @37, @92, etc. who call for the banning of David Mathews, I'd like to formally request the exact opposite. A prominent link should be featured on the Sound Politics home page that leads readers right to the best examples of left leaning comments. And a banner should implore the average apolitical Joe to visit and read the screeds of these Netrooters, Secular Progressives and Nihilists.
The more that we get Average Joe to become fully aware of, fully understand and consider the consequences of the ideas of secular progressives, and worse, the nihilists who want an all out assault on humankind, the sooner they will be relegated to the ash heap.
Give these folks a forum, let them tell their tales of higher taxes, lessened freedom, less responsibility, and even the outright dismantling of our society. Let them be frank and open. Let them tell the *full* story, and not just the marketing spin they use in the mainstream media to sell their bad ideas that Average Joe would otherwise reject. What better place for total disclosure and a refreshingly new and complete look at bad leftist ideas than the blogoshpere?
Bring it on. In a competition for ideas, the anti-freedom, anti-market, anti-man side will lose handily. All we have to do is make sure that Average Joe knows exactly what they intend to impose upon him.
Wow, ask and ye shall receive. No sooner did I finish that last comment and Eric has a new post up that features links to a David Mathews screed.
Now commenters and readers, do you part. Cut and paste this link:
to an email to folks you know, and show them the full story of folks like David Mathews. David, please beef it up, heavy on the anti-man, anti-everything. Let's get your message out to all of America. Let's show America what the left is really like!
92, I did not call for David's Banning
I think it is very appropriate that he is posting here.
It's just he says he switched parties because of Bush hatred, I highly suspect that is not true.
And he says he beleives in a party which will get us out of Iraq, and I highly suspect that is also not true.
The democrats got elected because they talked of a plan for getting out of Iraq, although there were no specifics on that plan.
My belief is that they need Iraq to get elected in 2008, so they will ride their get out of Iraq all the way until the 2008 election.
They have no plan, and therefore no action but talk.
So I say get off your talking ass, democrats, and actually DO SOMETHING.
Thats how this war, terrorism, and every action necessary to freedom was accomplished.
Just understand that Radical Islam wants you converted, or dead.
> Just understand that Radical Islam wants you converted, or dead.
Just as the radical neocons want all the Muslims dead.
As for myself, I don't need to convert. I am a Christian who loves the Muslims.
I am sick of all this violence and want it to end. Americans who love peace must begin living peacefully.
98. I bet it slips Matthews mind his party went into this thing blowing their horns too.
Also, the Dems were the ones screaming about not having enough body armor, special plating on the HMV's and other tactical goodies. Now look what they're doing.
Isn't the dims strategy "high crime requires more cops to fight it, high illiteracy requires more teachers and more money, high poverty requires...oh you get it. Now where's the consistency with those bafoons. Your bafoons Matthews???
Hi David, et al:
I believe that GS's comment was:
Just understand that Radical Islam wants you converted, or dead.
Posted by gs at February 18, 2007 05:25 PM
I think you made a Freudian slip:
As for myself, I don't need to convert. I am a Christian who loves the Muslims.
I think you don't have have to convert because either you were born Muslim or converted to Islam from Christianity.
In any event, Christian theology embraces the concept of loving one's neighbors whether Christians or not. Islamofacists don't embrace that theology and kill everyone who disagrees with their twisted interpretations.
So, your response is to drag out the crusades, inquisition or whatever. I've just saved you the trouble.
"I am sick of all this violence and want it to end. Americans who love peace must begin living peacefully"
There were millions of people living peacefully in New York when the towers were first attacted and people were killed.
There were millions of people living peacefully in New York when the towers were destroyed and thousands of people were killed.
And you want us to all live peacefully and wait for the next massive terror attack?
Cum Bye ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Sh**T
"Americans who love peace must begin living peacefully."
However, the Left's solution is this is to hand over our sovereignty to 3rd world "security councils," to stagnant economy Euro-centers and anyone else who wants to pile on & rake the fruits of our cumulative inventions, blood & toil, contributions to the world's needs and our assets and labor.
"Don't Tread On Me"--true 200+ years ago--and true now--