Well, almost open thread. If your comments would fit better under one of the storm posts below, then put them there. Use this thread for anything else on the storm.
(For me, the storm was just a minor inconvenience. Here's my first post after my power came back on.)
Posted by Jim Miller at December 17, 2006 06:01 PM | Email ThisOne of the biggest problems has been traffic signals that don't work because they've lost power. While most of the traffic signals were back on in the Edmonds/Lynnwood/Shoreline area fairly quickly, several key signals were out for two days (maybe longer---didn't go up to to Costco at Aurora Village area today), creating massive choke-points as these turn into gigantic FOUR WAY STOPS. At one time yesterday, 205th/SR 104 (Edmonds Ferry route) was backed up from Interstate 5, all the way to Aurora, because of one lousy intersection at 76th/Meridan that had no power. So.......
My question is: I know the police are really busy (or at least they were during the first 24 or so hours with emergencies), but why can't cities/counties train the public works/transportation department employees to direct traffic and station them at intersections where the signals are out? I think Edmonds had 4 or 5 intersections out of power for 2 days---and I bet their Public Works Department has at least 15 employees---couldn't they be trained to lend a hand in an emergency?
I don't think this is rocket science, but I may be missing something . . . ?
Also, I was amazed to observe how many people were unprepared when the storm hit. We gassed up our cars before the winds came, had firelogs, batteries, etc. I hope this storm helps everyone to pay more attention to their emergency supplies on hand, because if an earthquake hits conditions could be a lot worse.
There is a gas station open with no lines in Kirkland, a 76 station on the corner of NE 132nd St. and 100th Ave. NE in Juanita area.
Thank you for a place to post this. (For the regulars, I am Mrs. Organization Man.)
Posted by: Terri in Kirkland on December 17, 2006 08:08 PM1. Watching the news I am truly amazed at the lack of preparation by the folks in this area; no back-up heat source, little or no food that requires no cooking, empty gas tanks. Were we not warned of this storm?
2. Out-sourcing of power line maintenance crews by Puget Sound Energy has seriously impaired that utility's ability to respond. I saw crews from several states working in my home area. I'm glad to have the extra help but recall much better response when the utility had in-house folks leading the effort.
3. This storm was a mere breeze compared to the February 1979 100-120 mph storm that sunk the western half of the Hood Canal Bridge. Buildings blown apart by wind gusts, entire stands of huge timber shredded like matchsticks, and of course, the loss of a major transportation link. What would happen if we had another storm like that?
4. I can't believe the stupid things people do when they are without power....using charcoal grilles, poorly placed candles and even generators indoors. It's a tragedy some folks got carbon monoxide poisoning or even killed by doing really dumb things.
5. Think about it and prepare yourselves, folks....you're not in California anymore.....
Posted by: Saltherring on December 17, 2006 08:20 PMFor all of the people around here who like to affect a southern accent when imitating a "stupid" person, why do we keep putting power lines up and watching trees knock them down? This is silly, in my humble opinion.
Yes, I'm sure burying them is more expensive -- kinda like taking an entire region with three million people offline for a week. Yes, there's moisture down there in the ground that could affect the equipment -- just like there's a bit of moisture on the hanging lines every time it rains. Yes, it could be a harder to repair a break in the middle of a line -- if you just bury the line itself, instead of doing the smart thing and burying running it through a pipe, out of which it could easily be pulled.
I'm not suggesting burying all lines immediately, but why not require buried lines for all new developments, and begin a gradual retrofit of older areas? Am I missing something?
Posted by: TB on December 17, 2006 08:40 PMThis time it was only 36 hours... during the Clinton inaugeration storm, we were without for over a week!
Posted by: ragnardanneskold on December 17, 2006 09:00 PMThis has, however, made me think twice about VOIP telephone (which I was considering). I never lost telephone, but did lose power. Without power I had no cable internet. Without internet, you have no VOIP.
Posted by: Seabecker on December 17, 2006 09:21 PMI have DSL and didn't even need to reboot my router.
Posted by: me on December 17, 2006 09:32 PMBeing prepared to survive in reasonably good form for a least a week without any help or public services is something everyone should be able to do (but very few actually CAN do, I expect).
WRT underground power lines:
Last summer I acted as informal project manager for myself and 3 neighbors in the laying of 7700+ feet of underground 7200-Volt cable-in-conduit, so this is a subject on which I have at least a little practical experience. A few things:
[1] ... For the pre-mated high-voltage cable that is already installed in conduit that comes on 2500-foot reels, the total cost for the cable AND plowing it in with a cat-mounted cable plow last summer was: $3.02 for the cable + $1.25 to rip (1st run by cat) and then lay the cable (2nd run) = $4.28 per foot; **IF** you do NOT have to prepare / dig any sections with an excavator. We were laying cable in rocky ground thru 100-foot trees, so some preparation was necessary (but we didn't have to dig even ONE foot of trench). IIRC we ended up spending about $0.75 per foot for all prep, so total cost on our project was about $5.00 per foot. Of course cost at any point in time will depend greatly on cable cost (shot way up after Katrina; has come down again). But most of the time in reasonable ground cable-in-conduit can be plowed in for at least several dollars a foot less that the traditional ''dig-trench, glue-conduit'' method.
[2] ... By comparison, last time I checked in my part of the State OVERHEAD distribution lines in average conditions were running between $3.50 - $4.00 a foot. So underground cable-in-conduit distribution lines plowed in are a bit more expensive, but not hugely so. And especially if you're in the trees, it's a slam-dunk: Go underground.
[3] ... Even though I think underground power has been put in up to about 60 KiloVolts, it is only clearly cost-effective for DISTRIBUTION line voltages: 7200-Volt to 15 KVolts or so. In the last storm Puget Sound Energy lost quite a few TRANSMISSION lines (115 KVolt and up); putting THOSE underground is hugely expensive to the point of being out of sight, cost-wise.
[4] ... In areas with tall trees, underground distribution lines is the ONLY way to go, for safety, reliability, AND estethics. It doesn't solve the transmission line problem, but transmission lines don't go down that often. This storm was one of the exceptions: We lost the transmission line over Loup Loup Pass, and the entire upper Methow Valley went dark until that came back up (the local radical left-wing eco-extremists may have a harder slog now, trying to sell their illogical theory of how the Methow really doesn't need 2 transmission lines).
[5] ... Even in 2006, fireplaces, wood-stoves, and generators are REAL handy things to have in situations like this (as long as you don't do something stupid with them).
Posted by: Methow Ken on December 17, 2006 10:46 PMAll in all, I probably could have been a bit better prepared, but got through OK.
Posted by: Vexorg on December 18, 2006 12:41 AM1. Gas line hysteria. Except for 5 gallon cans for generators, why all the panic to refuel?
2. QFC panic; why strip the store shelves after the storm (yeah, i know you throw out some food, but man i've got like 3 weeks of pasta and soups in the pantyr, no need to panic at the store
3. Endless yapping about it; man i lived it too, its boring already.
4.. others?
Still trying to cut and clean up the downed evergreen though. Smashed through a section of fence, which was much better than if it had fell about 4 feet to the left where it would have hit our deck and hot tub.
Posted by: Palouse on December 18, 2006 08:30 AMI have a rotary phone in my kitchen as my main telephone. It's fun to watch the reaction of younger people when they encounter it. Upstairs in the bedroom I have a phone which will operate on either tone or rotary clicks. My line supports either one.
Posted by: RBW on December 18, 2006 10:51 AMWe shouldn't need to drive all over town wasting gas in a search to find gas. We also shouldn't be clogging the roads and impairing the movement of emergency services. Driving to the mall because you are cold and don't have your christmas shopping done is not necessary. Driving to transport an elderly or sick friend or relative who needs to go somewhere with heat or power is.
Be prepared to take care of yourself and your family. It is probably too much to ask, but in an ideal situation, we'd even have enough supplies, intelligence and courtesy to look out for a neighbor who may not be as prepared.
Don't whine about conspiracy theories about power restoration, or complain that the law of supply and demand applies even to gasoline, or dispair that you don't see government employees directing traffic or wiping your ass. Relax, bundle up, spend the weekend at home with a good book and get over it.
Posted by: Kevin on December 18, 2006 10:57 AM
Right on! I'm still chuckling over the whining I see in the comments on "Best Info During The Storm?". Where did all these weenies come from?
Posted by: Saltherring on December 18, 2006 11:12 AMand preparedness/self-reliance? and we need to fight terrorists? wow--we in BIIIG trouble!
ps--my diversity 2 cents: Carbon monox. & bbq'ing indoors by immigrants. who can we blame/sue now? unlike Sno. County's immigr. guests a few years ago, at least they have been versed in what a toilet is for. charcoal is another thing.
a big thanks for the tireless utility folk whom we ingore until now. and the police/fire folk working extra for the storm. it;s appreciated.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 18, 2006 11:15 AMThe lesson should be clear. Preapare in well in advance. Keep batteries, bottled water, canned goods (or other non-perishable food), etc. on hand at all times, then rotate out the old stuff by using it, and replenish with new, always keeping a "rotating stock" on hand.
We need to be prepared to help our neighbors as well as ourselves (the elderly especially).
From conversations I've had over the last several days, a lot of people don't realize how much manpower and transportation resources it takes to maintain the grocery store shelves and gas station storage tanks, or how quickly these supply lines dry up when something major happens.
Some people I have suggested this too think it's silly, "Oh, we don't get storms like this that often," etc.). But, talk to someone from an earthquake active area (like some places in California), and they think it's stupid not to be prepared.
And, having at least one firearm and some ammunition is not a bad idea either.
Posted by: Marty on December 18, 2006 01:27 PMAfter I inspected the house (lost a few shingles and the big tree stayed up)and as soon as I knew we were in for a protracted time of no electricity, I unpacked all of the emergency supplies (a generator is really overkill I think)and set them up in the basement. The wood insert is located there so it is easier to heat that area than the whole house. Wood wise we were good for a week or so, food wasn't a problem. A 5 minute drive and we could secure restaurant food anyway. Power was back on Saturday night, phone on Sunday. Once I was good to go, I went down to see the 86 year old lady down the street and made sure she was OK and had what she needed. She's a real trooper and had a wood fire up and going and was puttering in the yard when I got there.
Anybody that can't last a few days in their house without electricity better sit down and do some serious evaluation about personal preparedness.
and thanks from me for checking on that senior citizen. i wonder if your common fellow citizen concern is still taught in our homes/schools these days. you did well by that, my friend.
i'm sure some libs would have done it too, but they generally do not "embrace" self-reliance. keep warm. best to you & yours. one less "victim" makes us all a little stronger.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on December 18, 2006 02:33 PMI agree with just about everything you posted except for the flippant government employees remark. There were major intersections that really could have used a police officer (1! THAT IS ALL!) to direct traffic. Just in the amount I drove on Friday and Saturday (not in a quest for gas, btw), there were major spots in Covington, Maple Valley, and Federal Way that could have used a cop directing traffic just to keep traffic flowing, and that's just what I saw in person. This is not a nanny state kind of thing unless you are someone who has diehard Libertarian attitudes. Heck, part of what caused the panic about gas was people having to inch their way in traffic due to the decision by whoever that major intersections would have to be 4-way style stops.
Posted by: ferrous on December 18, 2006 03:04 PMI do not think it is reasonable to expect law enforcement to post officers to direct traffic at intersections.
With fist fights at gas stations, grocery stores and Costco breaking out (yes, I know of at least one instance at each mentioned place), and so much else going on under these conditions, law enforcement has their hands full dealing with far more serious issues, like power lines on roadways, welfare checks on people in damaged homes, welfare checks on elderly individuals, fights, etc.
An officer can't perform any of these critical, potentially life saving functions if the officer is planted at an intersection to direct traffic. And every department has limited resources. Some officers might not make it in on time, or at all due to road closures, putting even more strain on resources.
Yes, the fire deparment is there to help too, but they're resources are just as strained during circumstances like the post-storm conditions.
Also, there can be an increase in crime under blackout conditions, as opportunistic individuals take adavantage of the confusion and darkness, so police tend to spend a lot of time trying to stay active, visible, and mobile, to cover as much territory as possilble.
All while dealing with the same conditions you and I have to deal with.
Dedicating an officer to an intersection, even a major one in my opinion is just not practical, and perhaps not even a priority under these circumstances. People will just have to make do and survive until things improve.
Posted by: Marty on December 18, 2006 03:23 PM"Heck, part of what caused the panic about gas was people having to inch their way in traffic due to the decision by whoever that major intersections would have to be 4-way style stops."
When traffic control devices are non-functional (i.e., dead, not blinking red, etc.), the intersection is supposed to be treated as a four-way stop anyway. Putting stop signs at intersections just helps those who don't know this (even though they should), or those who may miss the intersection in the dark. Unfortunately, there are not enough stop signs to cover all intersections.
There may be some exceptions, but in general at busy intersections, putting stop signs on the minor arterial and leaving the main arterial open, might improve traffic flow, but is asking for trouble and can be downright deadly. This is especially true at night with no street lighting, and no ambient light from stores, etc., i.e., total darkness, except for your headlights.
The situation is further made worse by some folks who seem to feel that driving 10 over in complete darkness with no traffic signals is OK, and end up breezing through an uncontrolled intersection at 45-50 MPH (like I saw in Kenmore).
Add the DUI drivers in around 11 PM, and you have a recipie for a really bad accident.
Again, people just have to make do, drive carefully, and be patient until the situation improves.
Posted by: Marty on December 18, 2006 03:58 PMMayor KORDONOWY, BI MAYOR, and Council are Bainbridge Island's version of New Orlean's Mayor Ray Nagon. Where were the open door shelters at COBI City Hall or Senior Center? We have the worst storm in 20 years and there are countless elderly stuck in frozen dark homes. Where were the shelters? Big talk about leadership in government but the proof is in the pudding. BI failed.
Friday afternoon ferry unloads and the intersection at 305/Winslow Way has no police officers assisting the safe transit of ferry traffic, passengers. The only people at the intersection were the Women in Black. Where was BIPD? Where was Mayor et al? Vacation or recuperating from the last COBI session.
We sent COBI personnel to New Orleans to learn the lessons of Hurrican Katrina? To what benefit when we have our Katrina and the leadership cadre was no where to be found.
Something is seriously wrong on nanny state People's Republic of Bainbridge Island.
Having been a former police officer, I am not opposed to the sentiment of hiring more. But more importantly, I think we should grow up and understand that in times of major regional emergency or disaster, the traffic might suck.
I'd venture that half the people on the road had no vital reason to be there. So blame your stupid neighbors who had to 'find a starbucks' or 'go to the mall for heat' if you don't like the traffic.
Instead of a cop at every interesection, we should just have patrols out to round up those on the road, and take the starbucks bound mall rats to internment centers where they can make do with cold tasters choice and a sweater.
I developed an ingenious solution that prevented me from suffering from the horror of long lines at intersections - I made one trip via car in four days. I drove from the eastside to north seattle, to pick up an elderly friend, and drove him down to south king county where he could stay with someone who had power. I stuck to freeways and avoided major intersections, the trip took about twice as along as normal bad traffic and miraculously, I lived to tell my story. Somebody get me on Oprah, I think I have a book to pitch.
Posted by: kevin on December 19, 2006 12:11 PMYa think?
Posted by: Fed Up on December 19, 2006 02:12 PMIssue of intersection being assisted by Bainbridge Police officers is a no-brainer: the intersection is across the street from the police station. 3K cars daily pass through this intersection. This is also a state highway and a key transportation nexus.
It isn't too much to ask, is it?
First off, we (here in redmond) are in the sixth day of no power. I'm in an apartment with-all electric and the conditions are literally life threatening. It appears that PSE has give priority to business customers, as they have been coming up much faster than residences, even when there clearly aren't big infrastructure issues for the residences. One interesting bit is watching the ambulances going non-stop up the road more or less day and night. I don'[t think that the death of older people due to fribulations brought on by hypothermia, or pneumonia, or other hypothermia-related diseases is even being tracked. PSE should be prioritising residences.
Second, in the video interview on the PSE web site, the pres mentions that they don't work the crews "more than 40 hours". I presume its a union work rule that they can only work 40 hours per week, but the 40 hours can be distributed any way PSE wants, and two 40 hour periods can be stacked back to back. That sounds rugged, esp in the cold and dark, but people really are dying from the cold, and I wonder if the rules couldn't be relaxed a bit during this emergency. Or is it that PSE is reluctant to pay the overtime? Or would it be a federal (OSHA) thing? Anyway, after the initial surge, PSE's hookup rate seemed to fall to 25,000 per day consistently, a which rate it will be another 48 days until this is done. We certainly haven't seen any trucks over here, and in fact I've looked all over the area and only seen a few crews actually working.
Thirdly, why on earth didn't anyone in king county prune the damned trees before the storm?
Frankly the storm was substantial, but not anywhere near hurricane force (I mention this because of the florida comment). Florida, texas, even snohomish county, takes storms like this every year, and recovers in a metter of a day or two. Usually without significant outages. In the case of King county, it destroyed the entire electrial grid!
It would be less egregious a problem if a (non technical) friend of mine from Snohomish county hadn't pointed out all of the branches in the lines and asked why on earth don't they prune them,( like in Snohomish county) as the first good storm would bring the whole thing down. That was in September. You would have thought that at least with the storm forecast several days in advance someone would have sent crews out with chainsaws to prune the worst offenders. Then there would have been a far less significant outage in the first place, and 120,000 "subscribers" (figure that means families with an average of 2.5 people per, so 300,000 actual people) wouldn't be huddling in the dark, hoping to live through the experience.
Finally, don't sit in a nice warm house with everything safe and sound, and tell me to be "patient" while I and a qurter million other people slowly die from exposure! One big difference between here and the Andrew aftermath is the sub freezing temperatures. This is life threatening. And was avoidable.
Posted by: bc on December 20, 2006 09:47 AM120,000 subscribes being restored 25,000 per day will be another 5 days. If more outages aren't caused by the next storm due in today. And if they actually keep up the 25,000 per day rate. All unlikely.
Posted by: bc on December 20, 2006 09:51 AM120,000 subscribes being restored 25,000 per day will be another 5 days. If more outages aren't caused by the next storm due in today. And if they actually keep up the 25,000 per day rate. All unlikely.
Posted by: bc on December 20, 2006 09:51 AM