... are getting more common, reports today's Seattle Times.
I want to secure the borders and take other steps to minimize the influx of illegal immigrants. But most of the millions who are already here are here to stay. (If you advocate mass deportation, please explain how that would work). Most illegals who are productive and stable enough to buy homes are people we could otherwise welcome as legal immigrants. I wouldn't mind letting a home purchase be an opportunity for legalization, subject to a background check and payment of back taxes and a fine. Better to encourage these folks to become Americans and officially welcome them into the ownership society than look the other way while a permanent illegal subclass develops, one which owes more to pimps like El Centro de la Raza and Acorn than to our common institutions.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at November 16, 2006 03:39 PM | Email ThisAs for deporting over 12 million people - it's logistically impossible, financially irresponsible and otherwise just a big waste of time.
Posted by: sgmmac on November 16, 2006 03:58 PMMass deportation is a red herring.
It will not happen no matter who is in power.
Terrorists can enter easily now from Mexico or from Canada. Drugs constitutes a majoy industry, from Mexico AND from Canada (BC Bud anyone?)
CONTROL THE BORDERS
Posted by: Politidick on November 16, 2006 04:13 PMI am opposed to amnesty. I was opposed to it during the Reagan administration and I am opposed to it now.
Your solution seems to be the best of the best so far. Make it a significant fine.
Grant citizenship, but also grant it for Asians. If you are Asian and your Green card (legally obtained) expires they will come and take you away, ha-ha; they will come to take you away, ho-ho (old song from the 50s. Not fair when we turn around and around the illegal Mexicans.
Posted by: swatter on November 16, 2006 04:14 PMAs for the mortgages, I'm not sure government can or should prevent a private bank from lending to someone whom they deem worthy of a loan.
Posted by: Palouse on November 16, 2006 04:16 PMWhen people register to vote, their names, dates of birth and last four of SSN are verified against the Social Security database to determine if they are citizens.
When people work for any employer, their W-2 form has to be turned over to the state child support agency (usually done through state employment security) to match names and SSN's against people obligated to pay child support. This information is put into a nationwide database, to allow interstate enforcement of child support orders.
My simple suggestion -- add the date of birth to the W-2 form, along with name and SSN (which are already there). Run this against the Social Security Administration database. This will determine who is a citizen or a non-citizen with work permission in the U.S.
In fact, this could already be done even without the date of birth. But adding date of birth would add more certainty.
Also, change the tax code so that employers can no longer deduct wage and benefit payments made to people not authorized to work in the United States. This will eliminate any incentive to hire illegal workers, since the corporate income tax rate is 30-something percent.
Better yet, impose a tax on employers who hire illegal workers. Deny them the ability to deduct wage and benefit payments from their taxable income, plus impose an additional tax equal to 100% of the wages and benefits paid to illegal workers. This will definitely cut the demand to hire illegal workers.
Simply reduce the demand for illegal workers, and fewer of them will come to the United States. And many of them will leave the United States for their country of citizenship.
Millions of people move between states and cities every year without difficulty. Millions of people can also leave the United States just as easily, if their economic opportunities here are diminished.
Posted by: Richard Pope on November 16, 2006 04:17 PMEXCEPT...
That would mean prices would go up. And, while I'm not sure I have faith that the average American would go along with that inconvenience, I know DARN GOOD AND WELL the politicos have no faith in, or respect for, the average American. And they'll pander to what they think will get them votes. Politicians these days don't seem to understand the difference between representing the people and polling them.
Posted by: sro on November 16, 2006 04:32 PM(1) Physical barrier between us and our neighbors, patrolled by soldiers not police officers. The coast guard guards our coasts, we need either the army or a border guard that is just as much military as the coast guard.
(2) Anyone caught sneaking in is held in custody until we can figure out who they are, why they are sneaking in, etc... Once we determine their country of origin, we either send them home and send a bill to their country, or we ask their consulate to pick them up at the border and send them home.
1 & 2 means our borders are sealed. Everything (including legal immigration) is moot until we get them enforced.
(3) Increase legal immigration massively, especially with our neighbor to the south. Make it a quick, cheap process. The goal is to bring in new blood that wants to participate in the American dream. We shouldn't deny anyone who would help us build a greater nation the right to live with us. I would seriously love to see millions and millions of new Americans every year--provided 4 below is followed.
(4) Monitor legal immigrants. If they commit a serious crime, they are gone. If they are a general nuisance, they are gone. If they don't find a job and get to work, they are gone. Make sure they are taking English and naturalization classes. When they have integrated (mastered English & understand how our society really works) then they can get naturalized. If they haven't integrated, they can't get naturalized. If they won't integrate, they are gone. Try to keep immigrants spread out as much as possible, and don't encourage them to congregate in cities. Integration is key. We want our newest Americans to be Americans as much as our oldest Americans.
3 and 4 together means that people who want to come here can come here. People who we want to stay can stay while those we don't want to stay have to leave. If you want to be an American, we will not deny you that. If you want to come here for something else and pretend to want to be American, we will kick you out.
What about the people that are already here illegally?
(5) Make it illegal to deal with illegal immigrants, period. I'm talking about not just hiring, but selling, buying, and any kind of activity. If they are here illegally, every American should be working for them to get deported, just like every American should be enforcing the law as appropriate. Americans who are helping illegal immigrants are committing a crime and get punished accordingly. We need to make it very easy for people to find out the real immigration status of someone.
(6) Those illegal immigrants that do surface are punished for their crimes (trial by jury) and sent home whether found innocent or guilty. If there is a case that they were ill-informed or expected to integrate through illegal immigrations, then let's leave the door open but only through legal immigration. Exception: If you have come here to wage war, then you are an enemy combatant and you earned a free ticket to Gitmo.
6 is deportation, but only as we encounter them. We aren't actively looking for them, we just wait for them to surface. Eventually, the vast majority of illegal immigrants will surface, and they will get deported.
(7) Illegal immigrants who want to legalize themselves can leave and try to re-enter our country legally. If they appear and say they want to legalize (section 6 above), we work with them and that will count towards the jury deciding whether they are guilty of fraud, etc... But there is no free pass, no easy fine, no way to stay here but to immigrate legally. We strongly encourage those who want to stay to leave and come back. Those who try to stay will be sent packing soon enough.
We can't look the other way when real crimes against our country were committed. We must enforce our laws and our borders now or we never will.
Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on November 16, 2006 04:42 PMWhat about all the LEGAL individuals who come here? My husband is Canadian and has worked and paid high taxes since relocating here - and yet, by following the rules, it has taken him years to get the green card. It will be longer still before he can vote (if he even wants to at this point).
I hope merely paying a fine doesnt wipe the slate clean for illegals.
For the legal immigrants, its infuriating to watch how easy it is for the illegals to get into this country and NOT pay taxes and have the whole world telling you its your birthright to live anywhere you want.
Either straighten up the whole system, or keep tossing out the illegals. But the people who follow the letter of the law (even when the FBI loses your fingerprints) and pay all the costs do not deserve this slap in the face.
Employers are supposed to check to make sure that their employees are here legally and there are governmental officials that double check that employers are not employing illegals. The number of people checking on employers to make sure that they aren't employing illegals has been slashed in the last few years. We'd have a lot few people coming here illegally if they knew they couldn't get a job. Also, not many people would employ illegals if there was a good chance of them going to jail for doing it.
Going after illegal immigration this way is a way that should work for both the left and the right, so it might actually get done.
Posted by: me on November 16, 2006 05:47 PMIf you had a home and family here, would you go back to Mexico in hope that you could get back?
I always thought the best thing we could do is tell Mexico that all of there citizens here illegally can stay and be legal, but we get PEMEX, their oil company.
Posted by: Janet S on November 16, 2006 08:18 PMIt is frustrating to see someone go through the nine year process to naturalization, only to watch someone else get amnesty. I think the solution is to give them a big fine and amnesty to remain in the US, but put them through at least a somewhat lengthy naturalization process. That will weed out the non-comitted and show some justice for those who have suffered through the legal process. After that, the whole process needs an overhaul. It's just a den for lawyers and bureaucrats.
We clearly need a fence and more rigorous background checks, but anyone who has studied our southern border geography knows that a fence would never be able to span the entire border, so in many ways that's only a partial solution. The cameras and technology are a huge waste of money too. But we need to do somethings to increase the security, especially in light of terrorism.
No matter what happens, there needs to be fines and documentation of those who want to remain so they can pay taxes. If you want to be a part of this society, great, we've alwasy been the guiding light to those seeking a better life, but you gotta pay to play. A great side effect here would be that once taxed, there would be a lot less to send back to Mexico. So there'd be a lot more pressure on Mexico to reform itself.
And we should always remain a nation willing to embrace anyone who comes in search of more freedom and a better life. Those Repbulicans pushing for mass deportation are just as nutty as the Democrats who are marching in bands of illegals flying the Mexican flag and handing out voter reg forms.
Posted by: Jeff B. on November 16, 2006 10:55 PMhowever, cutting in line & trespassing is not to be rewarded either--landowner or not; sends a bad message about our laws & screws those who played fair & waited in line.
my wish--dry up the well of bene's.--no citizen, ZERO freebies. those who came for same will go back on own power from whence they came.
want to keep them? then YOU sponsor them 100%--be it a church, employer or lib immig. rights group--just don't let us taxpayers pay as a whole for lawbreakers or trespassers. "hard work" is not a presidential pardon.
and the insta-worker-citizens? it's not just them--they are dropping kids. grams & gramps & aunts will come too for free medicare & housing & schools. i don't mind guest workers, but we cant have another HUGE wave of people draining our social systems.
like ants on a scent, it's never just a single worker. they bring family. and--who's to say they will return after the work pass time limit? they will go into the wind again.
no one takes the worker-exporting countries to task and demands they take care of their own. they just point to our generous nature.
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on November 16, 2006 11:11 PM
Mass deportation has worked and it worked very well. It only needs application to a small fraction of violators and the rest scamper back across the border.
Eisenhower proved it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
And there are less confrontational means such as attrition which boils down to making it so difficult for an illegal to stay in the USA that the illegal decides to capitulate. If the border is strong they won't be able to get back in once they leave.
There's alot of truth in what many say:
"How do you deport 20 million illegal Mexicans?" Easy! The same way Mexico did!
Many believe Mexicans scoffing at US Sovereignty and violating its border is a direct result of over 40,000,000 aborted babies. They are filling the demographic vaccum created by abortion. Whether or not that is a true cause and effect, it is recognized that illegals consume more in tax dollars that they produce. Hence, they represent a drag on Americans. And to prove this latter, recall that no material effect on the economy was noticable when they staged two mass boycotts early in 2006.
Posted by: Michael in Seattle on November 17, 2006 03:12 AMNot true; that's a left-leaning red herring. Legit businesses are duped by fake documents, and I'll leave it to you to determine the suppliers. Here's a hint: First-hand knowledge has determined the real vultures are their own kind. They know the person is here illegally; pay cash at less than minimum wage, and rest comfortably knowing the illegal can't go to the authorities. If you'd like I'll take you on a tour of the area and point out some of the operations.
Posted by: TedS on November 17, 2006 05:32 AMYou don't have to 'deport' the illegals. Just make it an uncomfortable environment for them:
1) Go after employers - including corporations. This includes 'piercing the corporate veil' and holding the executives personally responsible. You'll see how fast wall mart and others come around.
2) Require verified LEGAL ID to vote in *any* election (local, state, or federal). Have a standard for accepting drivers licenses.
3) Also require proof of legal residency to get education or [non-life-threatening] medical benefits. And especially public financial assistance of any kind (welfare, unemployment, food stamps, etc...).
4) Cut *all* federal funds from 'sanctuary' cities, counties and states or anywhere else which prohibits police and officials to inquire into a persons immigration status. If you won't enforce federal law you don't get federal bucks.
5) Stop 'anchor babies'. Require that both parents be legal residents or citizens in order for the newborn to be 'american by birth'.
6) Stop the catch-and-release. Put them up in camps in you have to. (and no - this is not based on race but legal status).
7) If you want more immigrants - change the immigration laws! (Doh!) But do it for all immigrants - not just mexican/latino's - thats racist!
Posted by: CrazyFool in Lynnwood on November 17, 2006 07:58 AMQuote:
Not only will it work, but one can easily estimate how long it would take. If it took the Germans less than four years to rid themselves of 6 million Jews, many of whom spoke German and were fully integrated into German society, it couldn't possibly take more than eight years to deport 12 million illegal aliens, many of whom don't speak English and are not integrated into American society.
I don't know if you're serious, or if that was some stupid attempt at irony, but your comment is just plain repulsive.
I notice that your IP address is from the Washington School Information Processing Cooperative. It's disappointing, and unfortunately, less and less surprising to see such comments come from public school employees.
Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on November 17, 2006 11:44 AMDid you read these bills? There is more than one that I referred to. I don't think legislation that builds a fence is better than no bill at all. Neither do I believe legislation that allocates billions of dollars to border security is better than no bill at all. Nor do I think making stiffer penalties for bringing illegals across the border is better than no bill at all.
Posted by: Palouse on November 17, 2006 02:04 PMIn GW's and the Senate's "Amnesty" plan they all claim that illegals who have commited a crime will not be granted a "path" to citizenship. Funny how they never say which crimes disqualify them. I guarantee the politicians will not let identity theft (using anothers SSN) disqualify the illegal for the path to citizenship.
To those who say we can't deport 12 million I say we don't have to. Here is how you manage it. You establish a guest worker program and say every illegal has 2 years to leave the country to apply. In that 2 year time you make clear that all employers MUST check for legal status of all workers, imposing huge fines for first offensives if they are caught employing illegals. You also say, any illegal that is caught after the 2 year period receives a life time ban from ever receiving a guest worker card or ever gaining citizenship. Pretty simple. You are given a 2 year window to leave the country and get in line and if you don't and get caught you are forever banned from getting the proper papers. Pretty simple, the majority of the 12 million will self deport in order not to risk getting the life time ban.
Posted by: drm on November 17, 2006 08:36 PMsounds good, BUT---during those 2 years, they have babies. suddenly, more fast track citizens via family pull-ins. they all know this trick. drop one over the border.
then, it's bring Grammy & Gramps (and half your village) on the Medicare/school/Section 8 rent rolls. not 1 dime paid in the system all along on their behalf--or VERY little to what they will take back. do you REALLY think they would just up & leave after 2 years? i dont.
they will buy houses/businesses & join the community---play on jurys', newspapers' and citizens' soft feelings of 'fairness' to stay. bingo--mission accomplished.
meanwhile, those who wait legally in line are feeling like dufuses. they are screwed. and THEY know it too! and WE know it too! that's the sad part.
fine--decouple the insta-citizen birthright (liberal Canada did) and make someone sponsor the illegals from their OWN $$. not the govt's.
we are all speeding past the essential road sign---"illegal"
Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on November 17, 2006 09:02 PMGiven that deporting 11-12 million illegal aliens could be done, will it happen? Probably not. Most nations would call what has occurred here an invasion, but no, the United States does not have the will to do what is necessary. Too many people would have to pay more for produce and vegetables, homes, lawn care, and cleaning. Does it need to happen? Ask someone who's ID has been stolen by an illegal alien and they might think so. Sit in a public hospital emergency room for untold hours waiting your turn for treatment and may find it alters your opinion somewhat, but it's doubtful we'll see the American public toss many illegal aliens out of the country.
Securing the borders is something we must do. Giving amnesty and citizenship to illegal aliens is not something we should do and as much as we pride ourselves on how wonderful we are, many aliens don't want US citizenship, they want money.
Regardless of what we won't do, we do need to identify illegals, register them as aliens, and tax their income. If they are going to use our social services and other benefits then they need to anti-up like the rest of us. Those that are criminals must be apprehended and deported after they serve time for their crimes.
Call me xenophobic or a redneck if you will, but our current open borders policy isn't working. As a taxpayer, I don't appreciate subsidizing those that utilize illegal alien labor and jeopardize my country and the future of my kids in the process.
We grab, we boot, we sell their US assets to pay back taxes & fines & give them the remainder, we also deny citizenship to their children & boot them too.
Home prices would be cut in half & there's plenty of renter Americans willing to take up the slack, millions of Americans would also get tax cuts from means tested subsidy reductions and hourly wage increases to boot.
Mexicans would have a renaissance of workers returning home & increase their food exports to take up our lost slack.
It would be a win-win situation for both nations (sans the drug dealers & human smugglers).
The Mexican economy would also get a multi-billion dollar boost in monied Mexicans returing home flush with cash from US home sales and millions of fully trained & experienced workers who may even demand accountabilty & freedom and the rule of law from their government.
Posted by: Smitty on November 20, 2006 01:19 PMWe grab, we boot, we sell their US assets to pay back taxes & fines & give them the remainder, we also deny citizenship to their children & boot them too.
Home prices would be cut in half & there's plenty of renter Americans willing to take up the slack, millions of Americans would also get tax cuts from means tested subsidy reductions and hourly wage increases to boot.
Mexicans would have a renaissance of workers returning home & increase their food exports to take up our lost slack.
It would be a win-win situation for both nations (sans the drug dealers & human smugglers).
The Mexican economy would also get a multi-billion dollar boost in monied Mexicans returing home flush with cash from US home sales and millions of fully trained & experienced workers who may even demand accountabilty & freedom and the rule of law from their government.
Posted by: Smitty on November 20, 2006 01:19 PM