October 23, 2006
Ethics In Seattle?

Some times, small stories* can be revealing, for example, this one on the P-Patch community gardens in Seattle.

Harvest-season thefts have been challenging the good will, optimism and sense of harmony in the city's 50-plus P-Patches.  Tomatoes vanish.  Peppers disappear.  Even tools, hoses and paving stones have wandered away.

No one knows just how much food has been taken, but this year's thefts have sparked a spirited online discussion among P-Patch gardeners, whose outlooks range from a get-tough stance to a philosophical acceptance.

There are two aspects to this story that I find interesting, ethically.  First, there is the thinking of the thieves, who are not, if these reports are correct, starving.

Some gardeners say they might be less upset if the produce was going to truly needy people.  But stories circulate about apparently middle-class people helping themselves to the crops.

"People have seen a lady in a well-kept Mercedes drive up, get out with her shopping bags and go out into the gardens and just start filling them up," said Ray Schutte, president of the P-Patch Trust, a nonprofit group that supports community gardens.

Most gardeners value their own vegetables far above what they would cost in a store, but these same vegetables would be worth little to most thieves.  I can understand — though not forgive — thieves who grab something of great value, but I find it hard to understand thieves who take something of little value to themselves, but possibly great value to someone else.

Second, there is the attitude of some of the gardeners.  At least a few think that everyone should just accept the thefts.

In contrast, Vade Donaldson, 37, wrote that theft is an unavoidable part of P-Patch life.  "This sounds crass, but I think we all, as gardeners, just need to get over it."
. . .
Donaldson was angry and frustrated when every bell pepper was stolen from his first P-Patch in 2002.

But his wife, Stephanie Kellner, 36, helped him focus on why people participate in the community garden.  "I hope it's because they enjoy the activity itself, of putting their hands in the soil, connecting with the earth and our food, and because of the community," he said.  "Gardening is the end in itself."

Now I can understand why some might tolerate thefts, simply because it is too expensive to stop them.  (Most large stores balance the cost of theft against the cost of preventing theft, in just this cold blooded way and try to prevent most, but not all, shop-lifting.)  But that isn't quite what Donaldson and Kellner are saying.  Instead, they appear to be rationalizing their losses because they do not want, in any way, to confront the thieves.

There are two objections to that way of thinking.  First, it is unkind, in the long run, to the thieves.  That may seem strange, so let me bring in a parallel.  I have long argued that the worst thing about welfare was what it did to the recipients.  (And many recipients agree with that argument.)  Similarly, when we tolerate theft we tempt some to become thieves, which nearly always leaves them worse off in the long run.

That first objection may mean most to the saintly among us, but almost everyone should be able to to understand the second objection.  When we tolerate some theft, we get more theft, which imposes heavy costs on all of us.  As it happens, the poor are especially big losers from these crimes, as they often are, because the P-Patch gardeners contribute tons of produce to food banks every year — but not as much as they could if some were not being stolen.

Is the tolerance that Donaldson and Kellner show toward the theft of their vegetables found elsewhere in Seattle?  I am sure it is, though I have no idea how widespread their attitudes are.   (And if you happen to know more about that question, I would be interested in hearing from you, either directly or in the comments at Sound Politics, where this is cross posted.)  Without knowing more about the couple, I can not be sure what led them to this way of thinking, but I suspect that they, along with many others, simply do not want to face the hard choices that life often brings us.  And so they rationalize the theft of their beloved vegetables, and many others in Seattle minimize the dangers from Islamic extremism.  Both involve difficult choices; for some it is easier to pretend that there is no loss, that there is no danger.

Cross posted at Jim Miller on Politics.

(*Although it is a small story, the Seattle Times put it on the front page last Friday, above the fold.

Here's the official P-Patch web site.   You'll note that they only allow "organic" gardens.)

Posted by Jim Miller at October 23, 2006 10:52 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Excuse me while I laugh at Seattle. My sister has had a community garden for years down here in dangerous Tacoma and has never had a problem with theft.
As a matter of fact, she's had people weed and water her garden for her when she's been to busy to get around to it. :-)

Posted by: me on October 23, 2006 11:08 AM
2. What the hell! The P-patches are on City land. Dosen't it follow the that the produce is for the common good and available to anyone without restrictions, Comrades?

Posted by: Paddy on October 23, 2006 12:00 PM
3. Just having someone stand around with a cell phone and nightstick would solve most of their problems...

"Organic" is just a way of explaining to other people that you don't really understand agriculture in any meaningfull way....

Posted by: H Moul on October 23, 2006 12:17 PM
4. "This sounds crass, but I think we all, as gardeners, just need to get over it."

this is the crux of Seattlespeak & its mindset. the victim is the problem--not the perp. this view permeates all of Seattle. no wonder things are awry & the tail wags the dog. spoken about a vegetable theft, but applies to cars, assaults and all Seattle crime.

'recycle' & disinfect the nearby druggies' tossed syringes that appeared when neighborhood homeless & bums were not arrested & moved in the first place.

then, inject the remaining vegetables with strong, non-lethal laxatives or blazing habanero sauce. watch, wait & film for Funniest Videos.

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on October 23, 2006 12:33 PM
5. Gee, these Elitist Seattle LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS are starting to sound like real CAPITALISTS! Don't they understand a basic premise of Marxism is "the common good"?? I didn't think there was any such thing as "stealing" except by Big Corporations in their convoluted world.
Perhaps they could discourage some of the thefts by smearing fecal matter on all their treasured veggies!

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on October 23, 2006 12:48 PM
6. "When something belongs to everyone, it belongs to no one."

Same is true of public toilets. And the refridgerator at work.

Posted by: Palouse on October 23, 2006 12:52 PM
7. The same people who would turn a blind eye to sexual preditors, illegal aliens, drug use, dangerous & unclean homeless activities and would be the first in line to protest the death penalty are NOW up in arms about their organic broccoli and tomatoes getting swiped?

Well everyone has their priorities/breaking point don't they.

Posted by: Troll on October 23, 2006 12:53 PM
8. In Locke's phrasing:
Life, Liberty and Property

Why did Locke so elevate PROPERTY, why are THINGS so important to him?

Because by utilizing the LIBERTY and choosing an activity or pursuit (hence happiness) to expend ones LIFE on we acquire property.

LIFE and PROPERTY are interchangeable. For X portion of my life spent working, I exchange that time spent for a house, a car, a iPod. While the medium of exchange is money, the principle is valid. I give my employer a fraction of my lifetime factoring in skill sets, and via the exchange medium of money buy stuff. The bottom line is I spent a portion of my life to obtain that thing.

For the P-Patchers they exchange a certain defined portion of their LIVES for vegetables.

If folks understood this fundamental CONSERVATIVE principle. Theft would be a much more serious offense.

Ask the P-Patchers if someone stole a year of their lives would they be so sanguine about it.

Posted by: JCM on October 23, 2006 01:21 PM
9. Yeah, jimmie, the "crass" word struck me also...it's not "crass," it's myopia or rationalization as others have said. Others have pointed out the connection between this and Marxism/communism...I'd go one step further...it demonstrates the disconnects in pink thinking between the economic factors of investment/capital, the added value of physical labor, and profit. It is city land. Does the city provide seeds, water, etc.? And who is to gain? Don't they just view themselves as collective wage slaves? I'm not confident that they can even answer the questions.

"Organic." "Perhaps they could discourage some of the thefts by smearing fecal matter on all their treasured veggies!" I would strongly suggest that this is a done deal, from what I've seen of organic farming.

Pardon the pun, but when activities like pea patches take root, they become institutionalized. A conservative would ask the rhetorical question "Is the best use of a public asset?" And the pea patchers wouldn't understand the question.

It was the inherent lack of understanding of history and economics that caused my initial doubt about the viability of liberal thinking years ago. It was later that the lack of intellectual integrity and honesty cemented the deal and lowered my expectation of reasonable discourse with the left.

Posted by: scott158 on October 23, 2006 02:02 PM
10. Let me guess, soon some moonbats associated with the VLF (Vegetable Liberation Front), will claim responsibility for setting free hundreds of enslaved vegetables from the "Guantanamo-like" illegal prisons known as Seattle's P-Patches (Patchmo?).

What a city! ROFL!


Posted by: Proregressive on October 23, 2006 02:28 PM
11. What bothers Welti most is the suggestion he's heard that having produce stolen is a way of giving to the community.

I thought Seattleites loved redistribution of wealth?

Posted by: Tyler Durden on October 23, 2006 02:48 PM
12. Ethics and seattle are two words that should never be used in the same sentence, other than perhaps to say "does not apply".

I did have to laugh, it is that absurd to think that might even possibly exist.

Posted by: Fox3 on October 23, 2006 03:10 PM
13. What struck was the one gardener's wife's comment that the really important thing was to remember how good the actual gardening made them "feel". I guess it's not really that important that the produce was designated for food banks. Who cares about the hungry? We just care about how "good" it makes us "feel". Typical Seattle liberal B.S.

Posted by: katomar on October 23, 2006 03:16 PM
14. Well, I never thought I'd see folks attack people who pay a fee and take the time to grow healthy fruits and vegetables for themselves and their families. But, silly me, the nastiness (as well as the willingness to attack without a shred of basic information) at SP knows no bounds. A few examples:


1. The families participating in the P-Patch program pay a fee to do so and work their own plots to have healthy food to eat. To say that this "demonstrates the disconnects in pink thinking between the economic factors of investment/capital, the added value of physical labor, and profit" is an absurdity. The people who participate pay their money and put in their time. Some are more upset than others at the stealing of their food. But to attack the victims is ridiculous. For more basic info on the p-patches, go to: http://www.seattle.gov/neighborhoods/ppatch/gardening.htm

2. Says H Moul: "'Organic' is just a way of explaining to other people that you don't really understand agriculture in any meaningfull way." Moul, please explain your solemn decree on organic fariming to the thousands of commercial organic farmers and the many hundreds of Seattle p-patch farmers who are practicing agriculture using brilliant pest-control techniques (some innovative, and some developed over thousands of years). By the way, Moul, you might want to use spell-check the word "meaningful" before you attempt to insult the intelligence of others. Just a thought.


3. Says Scott158: "'Organic.' Perhaps they could discourage some of the thefts by smearing fecal matter on all their treasured veggies! I would strongly suggest that this is a done deal, from what I've seen of organic farming." Scott, you should probably keep your odious personal experiences and practices to yourself, and leave organic farming to the hundreds of millions of people who participate in it every day, either by buying or supplying healthy organic foods.


Posted by: Vonnegut on October 23, 2006 03:30 PM
15. Where I live, this is the time of year when people lock their cars so as not to find a backseat full of zuchini, corn and tomatoes. I have also been very unsuccessful in recruiting people to come to my garden and pick their own, for free. They will only take it if I do the work of picking, cleaning and bagging. Something doesn't seem quite right about this story, but then I don't live in the big metro-natural city.

Posted by: Elaine on October 23, 2006 04:30 PM
16. I have a plot at the Interbay P-Patch and can confirm that it angers each gardener when something he or she has nurtured and anticipated harvesting is stolen. I personally do not ever buy the rationalization that the theft is somehow acceptable because the thieves might be "needy". Theft is an absolute wrong regardless of the thief's needs or the victim's means.

But the ideal is not what gardeners must address. The question here is what is the appropriate response to that theft.

When a theft at my P-Patch can be attributed to a specific person (like a known gardener stealing from another gardener's plot, or by noting the license plate number of the thief's vehicle), they get a letter or visit from the Seattle Police department. Gardeners risk losing their gardening rights from the Department of Neighborhoods and a fine from the police department. Non-gardeners risk a fine.

Gardening at a community P-Patch is ultimately a social outlet as well as a way to grow food or flowers. What each gardener must make work for themselves is the quality of their gardening experience and produce output. As each P-Patch is open to the public, preventing theft is an expensive proposition - in both time and money. Not every theft is witnessed. Who's going to volunteer or pay for the night watch?

Without accepting that theft should be tolerated, you can resign yourself to a certain amount of loss simply to retain your sanity, or prevent a coronary.

So in addition to aggressively pursuing theives that can be identified, gardeners also have coping strategies to deal with situations where the culprit cannot be identified. I plant my more prized crops further from public paths. It seems any extra effort a thief must make reduces the rate of pilfering. Sometimes I will plant a tempting sacrificial plant near the edge of my plot in order to prevent other theft from the middle of the plot.

Other gardeners' coping strategies may extend to rationalizing theft. Mine does not.

Posted by: Brian Ballard on October 23, 2006 04:53 PM
17. Sounds like P-Patching is a bit like THE REAL WORLD!

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on October 23, 2006 05:49 PM
18. The Chinese have practiced organic farming (applying human feces to crops, feeding diseased chicken carcasses to pigs) for centuries, which explains why most influenza strains originate in the Far East, including the most recent, H5N1.


Posted by: Organization Man on October 23, 2006 07:27 PM
19. Perhaps they could discourage some of the thefts by smearing fecal matter on all their treasured veggies!

I think that's how organic gardening is defined. The city that defends the rights of bums to sleep and defacate wherever will not be disturbed by a little thing such as theft.

Posted by: South County on October 23, 2006 09:25 PM
20. I have this odd little theory that when the powers that be allow street bums to do their thing, and not "do anything" about minor crimes, they get the people who vote in elections and serve on juries in an angry mood that causes them to accept unconstitutional measures and to ignore reasonable doubts screaming at them from the evidence presented.
Therefore it is no accident when the police "do nothing" about the bum who pees in your doorway or the punk who lets the air out of two of your tires or the food thief who steals vegetables out of a garden.
The problem with authorities who seem to tolerate minor crimes is that it leaves people with the awful choice of "accepting" their losses and the inconvenience of stepping over a puddle of urine to get into their offices, or getting vigilantistic about it. If when I catch a bum peeing in my doorway and I grab him and throw him all over the sidewalk and scream at him for peeing in the doorway, will the police continue to "do nothing" or will they arrest ME? Can I count on a Seattle jury to use a little common sense when the "victim" of my "assault" was urinating in the doorway and the authorities were doing nothing about it, and I can provide evidence of such nonfeaseance?
How about the P-patcher who defends his crop with a shotgun? (Now you can empathize with the rural farmer whose 10 acres of broccoli is supporting his family and therefore has a BAD attitude about crop theives! And a very strong 2nd Amendment attitude, Dude.)
It is like the ref who never sees the cheap shot but always flags the retaliation.
I believe we should try a "no broken windows" approach to arresting those who commit minor crimes because it might reduce the more serious crimes, and eliminate the need for citizens to get nasty to protect their property and avoid inconvenience. Rudolph Giuliani had an idea there.

Posted by: Roger Knight on October 24, 2006 12:56 AM
21. Pee-brains! Should spray the entire area with Agent Orange. As long as Seattle remains lefty their is no hope. And they will. All the decent smart folks got out and surrendered it to the Socialist elites. So you Seatlle losers, you deserve it. I thought P-patch in Seattle was where the bums relieved themselves? Or is that City Hall?

Posted by: Paul on October 24, 2006 06:36 AM
22. I don't know where the p-patchers get their notion that the veggies the grow are "theirs" and the missing ones have been "stolen." How is it that a seed grown to maturity on public land comes to be owned by the planter and not the land owner? If the p-pathers want to be able to police their OWN veggies, they have to grow them on their OWN land. The police would then protect them from trespassers and thieves, and they could also use there own resources to protect their property. But the p-patchers plant seeds on public land and expect to keep the public off their little pretend plot. Frankly, I think the whole situation is hilarious.

Posted by: srogers on October 24, 2006 07:33 AM
23. If someone would only steal the fruits and vegetables that make up our legislatures....

Posted by: Steve on October 24, 2006 07:58 AM
24. we definitely need another blue-ribbon study by Seattle's Diversity, Justice and Fiber Committee.

Maybe Raj the Sucessful School Guy can get a new gig? and we need a new property tax--(only 1%) & "it's for the buds" (the children)

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on October 24, 2006 10:42 AM
25. Did you see the front page in the Seattle Times today. Eating Veggies helps improve your memory by 40%. Eating organic veggies are tastery and indeed most studies show more nutricianal. A thief is a thief under any circumstance. Srogers should also be informed that all community gardens are not on public property, Community gardeners do pay a small leasing fee for their plots. Using Sroges logic a golf ball used on a public golf course must belong to the public, tennis ball, soccer ball frisbee etc they belong to all of us, step up and take what you like.

Posted by: ray schutte on October 24, 2006 01:52 PM
26. Did you see the front page in the Seattle Times today. Eating Veggies helps improve your memory by 40%. Eating organic veggies are tastery and indeed most studies show more nutricianal. A thief is a thief under any circumstance. Srogers should also be informed that all community gardens are not on public property, Community gardeners do pay a small leasing fee for their plots. Using Sroges logic a golf ball used on a public golf course must belong to the public, tennis ball, soccer ball frisbee etc they belong to all of us, step up and take what you like.

Posted by: ray schutte on October 24, 2006 01:53 PM
27. As a gardener at Interbay P-Patch, I'd like to dispel some of notions about P-Patch gardeners using public land for their own gain. Each of us pays a fee to the city to "rent" our plots for the year. In addition to the money, each gardener must put in a minimum number of hours maintaining the public areas of the city property. At Interbay, gardeners have put in 2500 volunteer hours this gardening season maintaining this public land. Our garden has been used by outside groups hosting events in the public space that has been maintained by these volunteers. We also make a sizable donation to area food banks and feeding programs. This year our total donation to the food bank program exceeds 5400 pounds, 40% of which has been donated by Interbay gardeners from their own plots. The rest is raised by volunteers in beds dedicated to growing food for food banks.

Additionally, not all P-Patch land is owned by the city. Some has been purchased by the P-Patch Trust, a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting community gardens and preserving land to be used for those gardens.

Posted by: Karen Whitner on October 24, 2006 03:06 PM
28. srogers doesn't seem to get the point. The garden plots are rented by the gardeners from the city. By srogers' line of thinking, apartment building owners could simply go into a tenant's apartment and steal the TV simply because the renter doesn't own the building.

Posted by: Brian Ballard on October 24, 2006 03:10 PM
29. Karen,
When you don't feel the need to put "rent" in quotes, I'll listen.

Brian, I understand the point perfectly. I don't believe most p-patchers have legitimate leaseholds on public property (with the exception of those actually owned by a P-Patch Trust, entities that I did not know existed and which, I assume, have a deed for the property they have purchased).

Ray, your analogy is idiotic. I purchase my golf balls and simply use them on a public park (when I play a public course). The balls remain mine. When you plant a seed on public property, the thing that grows is appurtenant to the land, like a fixture installed by a tenant in a leased building. The plants belong to the landowner (the public), just as the fixture belongs to the landlord, not the p-patcher or the lessor. So it may be the case, depending on whether common law has been superceded by local laws and precedential litigation, that p-patch plants don't actually belong to the p-patchers even if there IS a legitimate lease. That might not sound fair, but it is logical, and it may be the law. You plant on public property at your own risk.

Posted by: srogers on October 24, 2006 03:45 PM
30. An addendum: if a p-patcher holds a legitimate lease, the terms of the lease can state that plants grown on the land belong to the tenant.

Posted by: srogers on October 24, 2006 03:48 PM
31. I've been in the courtrooms many, many times when juror members are picked. I can never get over how Seattle area residents, the prospective jurors, are so reluctant to express scepticism, or to be judgemental towards any drug users, homeless, criminals, drug dealers or minorities. They fall all over themselves to show how open-minded they are and to always doubt the police. They think that conservatives are narrow minded racists. That the real damage from drug use comes from the police and criminal justice system. And that the homeless and drug users are the real victims in society. They see cars, the suburbs and families to be the bane of civilization. It's obvious from my daily commute that the tax payers are on the lowest level of importance. The city and state couldn't care less about the hellish commute that we suffer through each day, but the parasitic homeless are pandered to and downtown crime is ignored for fear of confronting a protected class individual. If you are homeless, a drug user, political protester, environmentalist, a minority, feminist, alternative lifestyle person or anything but a white guy or a conservative you will have a dozen different special interest groups shouting in your defense for committing even the most heinous crime. The tolerance crowd has made crime into a grey area, the only black and white issues are Liberal= Good, Conservative = Bad. It's classic Maxism, everything Anti-establishment is good, everything that supports establishment is evil.

Posted by: slyfox on October 24, 2006 09:01 PM
32. slyfox--hey--calm down...
here's a tomato, zuke and a gourd for you...
uummm...don't ask...don't tell...ok?

Posted by: jimmie-howya-doin on October 24, 2006 09:53 PM
33. srogers continues to prove it knows nothing about what it's writing about. The P-Patch program is part of the Seattle Municipal Code, which grants use permits and assigns administration and policy authority to the Department of Neighborhoods. Each gardener applies for and pays for the permit which gives the gardener sole ownership of the produce of the rented plot.

Jim, the reason for the organic policy is because these plots are rented, not sold or granted. This policy helps future gardeners of the same plot know what has (and what has not) gone into the soil they will likely be eating from. Without such a policy, honestly, who knows what some avid gardener may put into the dirt someone else will eventually use. I'm not an organic nut, and if you actually stopped by one of the P-Patches you'd learn that while most gardeners appreciate knowing what's gone into their dirt, most are not organic absolutists eiter. And if you really don't care for the organic "religion", try it out just for taste. It can be empirically shown (by measuring sugar content) that this intensive, organic method produces tastier fruits and vegetables.

Posted by: Brian Ballard on October 24, 2006 10:26 PM
34. Brian continues to demonstrate that he has no concept what the word "ownership" means. Hint - one cannot acquire ownership my means of a permit. And you can't create it by means of a municipal code. True ownership of land grants the owner the right to exclude others, including those who would steal the products of the land. Brian's "ownership" right granted by permit is as good as the paper its printed on - hence the problem that started this whole conversation. The meanest, least ethical, least responsible members of the public always tend to turn public assets into crap, and they will continue to wander onto Brian's p-patch and steal "his" produce because there is no practical way to stop them.

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the contribution to local food banks made by p-patchers, it doesn't mean I hate fresh vegetables or fail to appreciate the joy or peace of mind some people find in gardening. It does mean I am open to facing reality - if you garden in public, be aware that some members of the public may help themselves to "your" produce. If you want to prevent that, grow your own vegetables on your own property.

Oh, and Brian, using "it" to describe me is what's known as an ad hominem attack - you simply reveal your own childishness.

Posted by: srogers on October 25, 2006 08:05 AM
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