August 09, 2006
The Religion of Peace Marches On
The Seattle Times alerts us to a traffic-disrupting "peace march":
A number of organizations within the local Muslim community will sponsor a peace march and demonstration on Friday from a Northgate mosque to the Northgate Mall, and back.
The march is scheduled to start at 2 p.m. at the Idriss Mosque parking lot, 1420 N.E. Northgate Way, after Muslim prayer services. Traffic along Northgate Way will be disrupted by the procession. Police have been assigned for traffic control.
No doubt they'll be conveying a message of peaceful coexistence
Meanwhile, British security forces have arrested 20 people for plotting to "blow up around a dozen planes over UK and US cities" using carry-on luggage. The report describes the suspects only as "mainly young, British-born Asian men". Hindu? Buddhist? Confucian? Shinto? Zoroastrian? Your guess is as good as mine.
In other news, two more of the missing Egyptian "students" were arrested in New Jersey today. The other eight are still missing.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at August 09, 2006
10:49 PM | Email This
Too bad the peace march was not a few weeks earlier. Maybe Naveed Haq would have been so taken by the gesture as to forgo shooting up the Jewish Federation?
MichelleMalkin.com has more on Dearbornistan terror arrests. US Muslims with airplane passenger lists, $11,000 in cash and 12 cell phones in their car, stopped by police today. Maybe these were just honest aviation buffs who were bringing the cell phones to the Muslim needy at the Seattle Muslim Peace March? Yeah, that's it. Broad Strata.
2. Stefan, maybe they were Rastafarian. Perhaps Christians? Good grief, they couldn't be Muslim, could they?
3. 3 hours from now my wife and her sister will be boarding a jet in the UK for a flight back to America. They will have to leave behind a lot of carry-on luggage such as cameras, computers, etc. That's the least of my concerns. I just pray that they have a safe flight back to America. For those of you that don't understand Islam, just listen to the news today. For all the Islamic people reading this, if you can't call a spade a spade, then you must be a suporter.
4. You need to be better than this, Stefan. Something as simple as a peace march - which you put in scare quotes - suddenly turns into something sinister the way you see it. I'm sorry, but it smacks of bigotry. And you don't come off as tough on extremist Muslims by making these kinds of posts; you come off as a very scared man who's lashing out at people who've done nothing wrong. How the hell could you be opposed to a peace march? Why don't you focus your energy on those who would hurt our country?
Islam is not a religion of peace. Islam is a religion of submission. Followers of Islam, even in many Mosques in the US are outwardly supportive of Hezbollah and Jihad. Are there some peaceful Muslims. Sure. But by in large, Islam at the top levels of its leadership and in its connections to governments in the Middle East is tolerant and supportive of the preaching of violent hatred. No other religion expects this level of devotion. And no other religion tolerates such widespread daily dissemination of hatred to its practitioners.
Islam deserves every bit of scorn it gets until such time as its leadership renounces violent hatred, renounces fatwas and jihad and above all, renounces its calls for semitic genocide.
6. The blurb does nothing to suggest this is not the sort of peace march demanded by most of the Western world, where Muslim moderates assert themselves over the fascists. Jumping the gun?
7. For all the blather about Islamic moderation, pragmatism and positive attributes, it's really juat a vile and sick religion. When they start marching, round 'em up and kill 'em. Let's be done with these idiots for good.
8. Jeff B, you are making dangerous generalizations. Yes, there are sick and twisted strains of Islam, and fighting them should be one of our top priorities. But there are peaceful, moderate Muslims out there, and the fact that you guys would be outraged that they are organizing a peace rally is really demented on your part.
9. Travis is exactly right. Stefan, why aren't you celebrating these peace marchers? Isn't that exactly what you want, and even demand, from Muslims?
If the marchers carry signs such as "Stop Hezbollah" and "Down with Naveed Haq," then Stefan will owe them an apology.
But I'll bet they don't.
11. Ann, you are a sick person.
12. It will be interesting to see if any women appear for this march if it's after Friday prayers. I was in the area one Friday afternoon recently and saw the aftermath of Friday prayers. It was odd. After church, what you see outside is families, men, women, children. When the Idris mosque let out, all you saw was men milling about. If you read the always-entertaining fatwa sites, you will learn that Mohammed said women should stay indoors and not go to the mosque to pray except for one holiday a year. A religion that so limits the life of half of humanity is horrifying, "peaceful" or not.
13. Gabriel - You're just a namby-pamby, bleeding heart liberal. March with your islamo-fascist friends and maybe something good will happen to you. Like having a bullet tear through your pinhead skull...............
14. Ann, if disagreeing with your murderous intent and lunatic raving makes me a bleeding heart liberal, so be it. You sound like a psychotic moron. Now I'll stop feeding the trolls.
15. MSM reporting the 21 arrested in Britian were "British Born Muslims".....Scary
16. to "wait-till-a-mushroom-cloud Gabriel":
looks, quacks and walks like a duck--it's a duck--your p.c. lack of survival skills and blind tolerance will harm others around you; this is not paranoia or bigotry, just simple detective work and observations by many of repeated facts & profiles in common over a long period of time; wake up--or stay away from us who want to survive;
17. Stalin couldn't have been the murderous dictator he was without useful idiots like yourself denying it was happening. All you've done is transfer your ignorance to another death cult disguised as a religion instead of a political cause. You can guarantee the march will contain the obligatory "Death to Israel", "Bush Is Hitler" signs. Your hatred of Jews is only exceeded by your hatred of America.
Can anyone tell me what organized effort American Muslims have taken to "out" the Islamofascists in their midst? What organized effort American Muslims have taken to fight WWIII; the war on terrorism?
There will be no peace until Islamofascism just like Nazism is defeated. And as far as I can tell, people like Jeff (Jaffar) Siddiqui are not helping.
So, we have a thread hijacked by two trolls- one posing as Gabriel and the other as Ann Coulter. Great.
I always admired Lew Alcindor and Cassius Clay when they became Muslims and changed their names to Kareem and Mohammed Ali. So, it is with growing remorse about those I admired in the past and respect for their religion that I am seeing the other side of that 'religion'. Totally different religion from the Kareem and Ali conversions.
The bottom line the moslem community in the US has a very poor appearance of being a religon of peace. No peace march which would be overall an antiJewish march means anything. Look at the problems in the Moslem world. Slave trading in NOrth Africa. Moslems attacking Christian churches around the world. Moslem fanatics kill parents after raping non moslem women. Children sold into slavery. If the Moslems in this country can not condem these types of incidents. It means they support them. Would not the Christian church condemn these issues if it was done in the name of Christianity. Until the Moslems have the courage to speak out against the horrors conducted in the name of their religion they are a part of the problem. We have one of two things happening their mosques have terrorists in them that scare them into silence or they support the actions of those who do evil in the name of their religion. IT IS not a pretty picture.
The appearance they provide speak louder than the words some of them speak.
21. My inclination is to believe that islam is what the radicals say it is and represents what they say it does. I base this on the FACT that there does not be a universal condemnation coming from the islamic "mainstream."
The followers of Islam need to realize there are many paths to "God" and spirituality. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Wicca - all these relgions "work." If Ali's path is Islam, so be it, but Ali doesn't have the right to kill Tom, Dick and Harry because they choose Judaism, Christianity and Wicca as their respective paths.
That's the rub. How do we convince Muslims the rest of the world isn't keen on joining their religion?
23. And how to convince evangelical Christians of the same, Libertarian.
"Peace marches"? At their best, they accomplish nothing, tie up traffic and police and hinder emergency response.
At their worst, they promote something besides peace, while still accomplishing the above-listed disruption.
This march comes at a very inconvenient time, during a plot to blow up more airplanes worldwide. Today, Bellingham airport is closed. I don't know what Seattle is doing, but I am sure the atmosphere is very tense and security has been heightened.
Opening the mosques to all comers and delivering sermons of peace would be a preferable means of expression. I don't see this happening.
25. It's interesting that Peggy and Stefan are so concerned about Muslims tying up traffic with their insidious peace marches. Would you be so concerned if it was a march by the Seattle area Jewish community, protesting last week's shooting? I suspect not, you just can't stand Muslims.
26. Gabriel, only a pathetic failure who is out of touch with reality would not take them at their word when they tell the world what their 'religion' stands for and what their intentions are, and there is basically no refutation from the islamic "mainstream" (which by the way, I am not sure exists). For me I do not count it as a religion at all. As their most vocal spokesmen describe it, it is pure unadulterated misogynistic, xenophobic filth.
27. As their most vocal spokesmen describe it...
Exactly - most vocal does not mean majority. For example, there are many Christians in the US who understand the message of Jesus as being that of compassion, humility, fraternity, and forgiveness, and do not accept the warped views of people like Falwell and Robertson. Think how awfully these televangelists represent American Christianity to the world.
Methinks Gabriel and Ann C are one in the same. Any bets? Stefan?
Until peaceful Muslims start renouncing Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al, AND recognize Israel as a country, it's all just lip service.
Will they be burning an effigy of Bush, like the Muslim peace marches in other countries?
Someone pegged the missing student story yesterday, 11 men = 11 cities.
30. Methinks Gabriel and Ann C are one in the same. Any bets? Stefan?
Until peaceful Muslims start renouncing Hizbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, et al, AND recognize Israel as a country, it's all just lip service.
Well, you've summarized the Sound Politics opinion succintly: "all Muslims are suspect". Many of you have sold your souls in the war on terror, I see.
31. Gabriel, there is NO universal condemnation comming from within that comunity, ergo IT IS WHAT THEIR MOST VOCAL SPOKESMEN SAY IT IS. Is that so hard to understand.
32. And Palouse, it's interesting that you thought Ann C would really be me writing under another name, because it suggests that she is such an awful caricature that it could really only be a creation of mine meant to lampoon wingers. No - sadly, many of you on the right really are that fucking nuts.
33. Interesting and instructional indeed is how the MSM is reporting the thwarting of the airplane plot. According to them they have arrested folks of "asian descent". Hmm, the MSM said the same thing a couple of months ago when the Canadians made similar arrests. The names weren't exactly asian sounding when they finally were published. I expect the same here.
I'm against any march, any peace march, any demonstration, and/or any peaceful procession that blocks traffic and causes Seattle Police to engage in extra shifts for crowd control that comes out of my tax dollars. Get it?
Are you going to call me a bigot for not wanting to spend my tax dollars on this crap?
By the way, Gabriel, apparently you don't understand statistics. Here are two statements:
1. Most Muslims are not terrorists.
2. Most terrorists are Muslim.
So, if you were looking for a terrorist, among what groups would YOU search? Hindus? Buddhists? Christians? Rastafarians?
You're an idiot wrapped in an enigma without a brain.
You know Garbriel, I'm sick of your comparisons of Islam to Christianity. As if somehow a blowhard like Jerry Falwell is akin to murderous thugs of an effed up religion.
If I want to profile Muslims as the threat that they are, I will. If I want to consider all Muslims who don't speak out forcefully against those who've hijacked their religion as complicit in the crimes committed by their religios brethren, I will. If I want to rail against a so-called peace march which does absolutely nothing to combat the terror threat put forward by Muslims, I will. And all your moral equivalency can take a flying leap, because I don't care what you think about it.
Spare me your holier-than-thou crap. They want you dead just as much as me, except I won't be sitting around chastising others for seeing the threat when they come calling.
36. No - sadly, many of you on the right really are that fucking nuts. Posted by: Gabriel on August 10, 2006 08:15 AM
And you're a fucking asshole who couldn't see a real threat if it cut your head off.
37. Larry, I've never denied a link between Islam and terrorism. I've only said that treating the entire community as being guilty is a terrible mistake.
38. Gabe's plan, along with the Democrat's plan, is "Hug A Terrorist", and everything will be better. Let's face it, it worked so well for Jimmy Carter.
39. You know Garbriel, I'm sick of your comparisons of Islam to Christianity. As if somehow a blowhard like Jerry Falwell is akin to murderous thugs of an effed up religion.
There are interesting comparisons to be made. Falwell and Robertson use some of the same logic as terrorists, e.g. saying that the US deserved 9/11 because of homosexuality and feminism. They distort Christianity to their own sick purposes just like militant Muslims do. That's why Andrew Sullivan calls them Christianists rather than Christians. Interesting parallels.
40. And you're a fucking asshole who couldn't see a real threat if it cut your head off.
41. Gabe's plan, along with the Democrat's plan, is "Hug A Terrorist"
Are you that dense? You're boring, to say the least.
42. And Palouse, it's interesting that you thought Ann C would really be me writing under another name, because it suggests that she is such an awful caricature that it could really only be a creation of mine meant to lampoon wingers. No - sadly, many of you on the right really are that fucking nuts.
No, it suggests that trolls like you know no bounds in their efforts to stir the bee's nest. You have an image of wacko right, and since you can't find anyone here to posit that image, you make one up in order to argue against it. Sort of a virtual straw man.
43. How would you like to try to accomplish anything with a monkey clinging to your back causing you no end of consternation? This is exactly what Gabriel and the rest of the Moon-bat left amount to. Without their interference the Vietnam War would have been a US victory and this entire Middle East problem could be have been handled by now. These flippin' idiots are a menace to civilized society and a public nuisance.
44. You have an image of wacko right, and since you can't find anyone here to posit that image...
Oh yes I can.
45. Well, you've summarized the Sound Politics opinion succintly: "all Muslims are suspect". Many of you have sold your souls in the war on terror, I see.
Yet another straw man technique. Summarize your opponent's argument incorrectly, thereby building up the straw man. No one here has said all Muslims are suspect.
What I said was that peace marches are lip service until they renounce those groups and recognize Israel, which is completely different than saying "all Muslims are suspect" [terrorists].
46. Without their interference the Vietnam War would have been a US victory and this entire Middle East problem could be have been handled by now.
Now that's hilarious! Yes, the 'entire Middle East' problem probably would've been settled thousands of years ago if not for liberals like me. And we probably would've landed people on Mars by now. What annoying little monkeys we are.
47. I don't need to use any straw man technique in arguing with the Sound Politics commenters. You guys do all the heavy lifting for me.
48. Garbriel: Your compassion for the Muslim Community is heartwarming. Your insistence that the Muslim Community not be condemned for the actions of a few is heartwarming. Your insistence that "many of your on the fucking right really are that nuts", "you just cant stand Muslims" is absolutely so consistent with your compassion for the poor innocent, harmless Muslim Community. Gee, last time I checked the Republican National Committee did not have a press conference and express intent to nuke the Democrats or Seattle or SFO, remove all rights of Deomocratic women while converting them into personal property, insist on the extermination of another nation by any and all means possible. Where is your compassion for poor, innocent, harmeless Republicans, who merely have policy differences with you? Does the fact we are in World War IV penetrate your skull? Apparently, you have a thick skull-I will respectfully remind you that a pissed off Islamofacist will think about one nanosecond before splattering your thick skull-simply because you are an Infidel. What is it like to be in Disneyland, particularly Fantasyland, 24/7? Whose the leader of the club that's made for you and me? Ned Lamont?
Sorry Gabe I got it all wrong. According to a British MP these current problem is all the Jews fault.
Just those pesky Jews again, right?
50. I stand by that 100%. The Vietnamese communists also back that part of it up. As for the Middle Eastern problem, if there were a united front facing them down they would crawl back under a rock for another half-century or so. But by having to carry the American left, who would do anything to bring this country down, and the Europeans who represent anti-Semitism's zenith, dealing with these barbarians is much more problematic.
51. What is it like to be in Disneyland, particularly Fantasyland, 24/7?
Is Fantasyland a part of Disneyland? I've never been there. Being there 24/7 sounds like it would be overkill, though.
52. And Hank, there are plenty of Republicans I admire and respect. I said that there are many on the right who are nuts, which is demonstrably true.
No - sadly, many of you on the right really are that fucking nuts. Posted by: Gabriel on August 10, 2006 08:15 AM
Nice civilized commentary Gabriel. Exactly what I expect from "progressives"
54. JDH, if you think that our foreign policy is failing solely because of liberals at home (and those damned Europeans), you're either ignorant or you're being extremely disingenuous. We have an administration that is inept as far as foreign policy goes, that's the problem. Your false revisionist history is dazzling, too.
Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson may be blowhard fake Christians, or whatever, but the bottom line is this:
They DON'T want you dead, and none of their followers do either!
unlike... Osama.. That's why you can't compare the two.
56. Nice civilized commentary Gabriel. Exactly what I expect from "progressives"
Nice attempt to take the high road, Bill. Because I've been treated soooo well while I've been commenting here the past couple days. Threatened with decapitation and a bullet through my head, to mention just a couple. If I say that a few of you are fucking nuts, it's with good reason.
Gabriel posted: "23. And how to convince evangelical Christians of the same, Libertarian."
Since when are the most evangelical Christians plotting to blow up several jetliners on trans-Atlantic routes?
Since when are the most evangelical Hindus plotting to blow up the Sears Tower?
Since when are the most evangelical Wiccans plotting to blow up buses anywhere?
Since when are the most evangelical Mormons plotting to blow up trains anywhere?
Since when are the most evangelical Buddhists plotting to blow up US military vessels?
Funny, Gabe, you don't seem to be able to grasp reality. Newsflash, this is August 2006, not August 2001.
58. Sorry, ferrous, but I disagree with Christianists who believe that 9/11 was deserved, that New Orleans deserved Hurricane Katrina, that homosexuals are going to hell and that terrorists should strike San Francisco. They are dangerous in their own way, yes.
59. Gabriel: Oh, you would not like Disneyland at all: 1)oppressed young people are forced to wear heavy costumes and pretend they are happy animal characters. They must follow the rules of their employer to the letter, they are not unionized. 2) children, aka known as fetuses who defied the odds, smile and have fun. 3) people go there to celebrate life, go there because they are prosperous as a result of free enterprise and capitalism-very dangerous. 4) there are no drunks feely urinating in doorways-clearly the drunks are being discriminated against. Nasty place. Stay away. Stick to campfires and cumbayah.
I guess the two arrested in Ohio that were from Derbornistan, Michiganistan were also just practicing the religion of piece. Complete with flight manifests, passenger lists and buying hundreds of tracphones to share with their fellow travelers.
The amazing thing we can't call them Rug Pilots, Sand Monkeys, brillo chins, Turban Brains, and we can't profile them...we can't defend ourselves. We take the word of the enemy and lock down the Pendleton 8. We have rules of engagement while they missile the northern half of a nation. In Dearbonistan they march in support of the Army of God AKA Hezbollah!
Our Neville Chamberlain Bush won't confront the issue....I am now the evil one for daring to label them so we can confront and kill them the way they should be. The 50 or so Briton MUSLIMS do not deserve a trial they should either be executed as the enemy or held in prison camp and feed cheap sausages until they are dead. If they had pulled it off would have killed 2,500 to 4,500 people!
Local Hezbollah spokesman Jeff Sneaky I am sure is freakin how do we explain this!
Norm Malleng probably still can't decide on the death penalty; still not sure if this guy Haq was that bad....after all he must have point and the Jews deserved it at some level right Norm?
When in the heck are we going to see their way of life is to kill all of us period and it is WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TO CONVINICE ME of that. When are they going to convince you??? Right they are trying to convince you that they are as humble as a flower. Our politicians have got to stop coddling them. NO MORE VISA FROM THE Sand Monkey Lands!
Shame on the Seattle PD for protecting their mosques after THEY gunned down the Jews!!!!!!!!
They chop off heads, blow up bombs in cars and trains from India to Spain to Britain, strap bombs on their children, sheath their women in black tubes, have 5 million square miles of sand and want the last 8,000 that is Israel, we liberate them in Iraq and they say screw you go Hezbos go in Baghdad, Amajammajihadwhackjob continuously calls for Israel to be eliminated and we let him work towards blowing us up with Nukes!
Ok ok I know I am the bigoted racist but when you running from the mushroom cloud don't blame me you have been warned by THEIR ACTIONS....I will be running from the new US Senate to be formed and held in the remains of America and will fight to the death that no memorials be erected to the hundreds of thousands killed in Washington DC in 2015 because they did nothing but come after my defenders and give visas to the enemy and give the Jeff Sneaky's of the world a free pass.
What price will be paid before we as a nation take it seriously! They knocked on our door in 1979 and we still jerk around and kiss their ring!
Not every Muslim is a terrorist but every throat cutter, hijacker, bus bomber IS!
Someone please hit the gong when I am wrong!
Wake up! You squishy Repubs enough! Neville Chamberlain's that is enough!
CIA/FBI needs to invade every mosque in America and bug them!
NY Times you are the enemy their presses need to be broken if they publish anymore information that aids the enemy.
The cities of Dearborn and Hamtramck MI need to be surrounded with agents and all you gay people need to sit up and shut up they are coming for you too and we can't waste our time on your selfish crap anymore!
And you're going to vote for the Deathocrats?
61. Great, now you guys are going to say that Col. Hogan is really me.
You never answer a relevant question. You strike out and then you deflect.
"Larry, I've never denied a link between Islam and terrorism. I've only said that treating the entire community as being guilty is a terrible mistake."
IN WHICH COMMUNITY WOULD YOU LOOK FOR TERRORISTS?
The Buddhist community? The Chinese community?
63. Gabriel you are missing major points. We have a number of attacks by moslems against Americans and Jews in this country. The mosques in the Middle East hold weapons. Since it is OK to do so by their religion. Do you not think these same extremists are not doing the same thing here in the US. It is the silence of Moslems and the vocalness on Moslem rights being violated everytime someone gets arrested. Moslems protesting that the arrests in Florida of good moslem boys that were setup by the US GOVernment. There are many things within the US that puts doubt on the idea that Moslems have a "Religion of Peace" When the moslem leadership in the US will not condemn any other moslem brethern on what they do to innocents overseas. Then the moslems in this country show that they have no compassion but for those who are moslems.
You compare Christians to Moslems. Sure go ahead. As I stated before the Christian CHurch will not sit silently by if they see evil conducted in thier name. The millions killed in North Africa over the past decade. Yes Millions due to attacks burning of homes and farms. All done in the Name of ALLAH. The silence says they support it. You look only in front of your face. What you see is the fact. Look around the world at the evil done in the name of ALLAH justified by their religious leaders.
Here in the US we have religious freedom. You will not see the same anywhere else in the Moslem world including our allies Saudi Arabia. You would think that because of the protections and freedoms in the US the Moslem community would have the freedom to correct thier brothers. No only individuals whose lives are threatened. Do not be surprised to see anyone who speaks out against terrorism will not be killed by those same terrorists.
I was in the military. I have been all over the world. I have been to dozens of countries. I loved speaking to the locals and learning more about their culture and country. One on One moslems are very friendly it is the leadership of the faith that has made it not a religion of peace but a religion of hate. in the 1800's this was not the case. Jews, Christians, and Moslems lived together in peace. Now Moslems blame their failures to take care of their people on the Jews. It only makes matters worse. Most moslem run countries are corrupt. Even poor Palestine that had no money provided Arafat with over a Billion dollars in his Swiss Account. IT comes at a cost.
Think well about where you stand. I believe in personal responsibility. If the moslem community is too scared to stand up for right and wrong then we have a problem. Guilty by association. Guilty by silence. I commend those few who are vocal about the evils of terrorists. But they are a very small minority. They are the ones that are trying to bring their religion back to being a religion of peace. Not the local mosques. BUt those who are vocal and putting their lives on teh line to speak out against Terrorism. These few people are true Moslems the believe in Allah. They see the difference between right and wrong. Something sadly missing in the rest of the Moslem community in the US.
Oh, wait, I get it now.
Gabriel, you WOULDN'T look for terrorists, would you?
That's why you don't discern any differences in 'communities'.
65. Col Hogan: Thank you for being so diplomatic and masking how you really feel. HehHeh. Will you run for office? Where can we send campaign contribtions? In all seriousness, Dino Rossi would be wise to appoint you head man at WSDOT in 09-WSDOT, just about as bad as some of the mosques in Dearborn.......a good rutheless clean out at WSDOT is in order..well, OK, a mosque or two first.
I am curious what you guys think about this:
Will Stefan have the decency to mention it? Will any of you admit that you have respect for the Council on American-Islamic Relations? Or do you still suspect them?
58. Sorry, ferrous, but I disagree with Christianists who believe that 9/11 was deserved, that New Orleans deserved Hurricane Katrina, that homosexuals are going to hell and that terrorists should strike San Francisco. They are dangerous in their own way, yes. Posted by Gabriel 8:55 AM
Just who exactly are you referring to, Gabriel? Give us some names. Oops, I forgot, you never answer a direct question.
68. Yes, Larry, I believe in looking for terrorists. Geez, this is like banging my head against a wall.
Gabriel @ 23 -
Good point about the Christian Right: those guys lie awake at night worrying that the rest of us are out having beers and enjoying life a little.
The Christian Right hasn't adopted the tactics of the Islamo-terrorists yet, however. Sure, they converted a lot of Jews and others to Christianity at the point of the sword back in the Dark Ages, but they've been reasonably tame for a good while. As bad as the extreme right-wing Christians are,they haven't beheaded any hostages in quite a while.
Personally, I think all this religious warfare stuff going on in the Middle East is insane. The major religions of the World show an amazing level of moral bankruptcy. I'm leaning towards Neo-Paganism myself.
70. No it is worse Gabriel belives in the right of Moslems are violated by the US Government. THat is the right to kill Americans. Do not arrest anyone until they commit a crime. Planning is not the same way. I bet he would claim Human rights violations on those arrested in Britian. Terrorists are innocent civilians until they kill someone. Granted All TERRORISTS are Civilians. They hide in the crowd hoping for the cover while they do their evil. Civilians hide terrorists among their number some out of support and some out of fear. Those who support cry the loudest about moslem rights are violated.
Bottom line Gabriel believes in reacting to the terrorist attacks not being proactive. His rights are violated if you are proactive. How many lives have been saved by proactive policies of the current administration. We can never know. The news onlytells us that the Constitutional rights of terrorists are violated.
71. Just who exactly are you referring to, Gabriel? Give us some names. Oops, I forgot, you never answer a direct question.
Falwell and Robertson.
It's a miracle! Gabriel answered a question.
I knew you could do it. What's more I agree with you. Falwell and Robertson are embarrasing kooks who present huge targets for the left to shoot at.
Apparently, Ned Lamont said "We're strongest when we negotiate with our enemies!"
Well, that negotiation part is for CIVILIZED "enemies." Just HOW would he have negotiated with those people that just got arrested in Great Britain for a wide-ranging plot to explode jets over the Atlantic??
You can't trust leftists to deal strongly with terrorism.
75. Gabriel, do you honestly believe that if this religion of peace got its' way and was able to convert all christians to the light, that they would spare homosexuals and not make american women wear burqas? Do you think they'll forget the basic tenets of their religion and really, really like you? Let's look into the future a little ways - what kind of a world do you envision?
76. Bill, it cheers me that we agree on that.
As early as 16 years ago, Lord Norman Tebbit, a British politician expressed his concerns about the increasing numbers of British Citizens that identified with a foreign nationality more than their British citizenship.
An example he gave was what he saw at a cricket match in Great Britain between their national team and that of Pakistan. He saw a great number of British citizens of Pakistani descent rooting not for England but for Pakistan. And they weren't all naturalized first generation British citizens, but third and fourth generations as well.
How, he wondered, can these people be considered British citizens and take part of the responsibilities of British citizenship, when they themselves don't even really think of themselves as British as indicated by them rooting for a foreign team instead their own national team?
And what are the consequences for British society of having a significant segment of its population that will not integrate itself into British Culture but instead identifies itself more with a foreign country than their own?
This "test" of British citizenship came to be known in England as the "Cricket Test" and as you can imagine was greeted with hostility and calls of racism from the Left.
But his concerns were unfortunately vindicated on July 7th, 2005 when "home grown" terrorists hit the London Underground subway system with suicide attacks
And now we have another terrorist plot which might have just included "home grown" terrorists in Great Britain.
Too bad people didn't listen to Lord Tebbit's concerns in 1990 instead of ridiculing his "Cricket Test".
For More Information:
Tebbit attacks 'unreformed' Islam
Lord Tebbit said the 'cricket test' was a means of gauging whether a community had integrated.
"If a community was looking back at where it had come from instead of looking forward with the people to whom they had come to, then there is going to be a problem sooner or later."
We came close today of losing hundreds or thousands of Americans. The topic here is about terrorists.
We better figure out how to defeat these guys, all other side topics are irrelevant.
Seriously, is no one going to read and comment on this
I've gotta run at the moment, but I hope Stefan reads that statement. But maybe he needs all Muslims to kiss his feet before he's happy.
80. Gabriel: The press release from CAIR reminds of a couple of quotes: 1) I have always been a Yankees Fan-Hillary Clinton 2) I never had sex with that woman-Bill Clinton. Sincerity at the max........
By the way,
I CONGRATULATE THE HARD WORKING POLICE AND SECURITY FORCES IN THE UK! WE WON ONE TODAY!
I hope to God that they will share their knowledge and investigative techniques with our police forces, and that we have the wisdom to copy what works.
Guess the military is becoming more sensitive and tolerant.
The following directive was issued by the commanding officer of a naval installation somewhere in the Middle East.
Middle East: U.S. Navy Directive 16134
To: All Commands
Subject: Inappropriate T-Shirts
Ref: ComMidEastFor Inst 16134/24 K
1. All commanders promulgate upon receipt.
2. The following T-shirts are no longer to be worn on or off base by any military or civilian personnel serving in the Middle East:
- "Eat Pork or Die". [both English and Arabic versions]
- "Shrine Busters". [various shirts show burning minaets or bomb/artillery shells impacting on Islamic shrines. Some signs with unit logos.]
- "Napalm, Sticks Like Crazy". [both English and Arabic versions]
- "Goat - it isn't just for breakfast any more". [both English and Arabic versions]
- "The road to Paradise begins with me." [mostly Arabic versions but some English. Some show sniper-scope cross-hairs]
- "Guns don't kill people. I kill people". [both English and Arabic versions]
- "Pork - The other white meat". [Arabic version]
3. The above tee shirts will be removed from base exchanges upon receipt of this directive
4. The following signs are to be removed upon receipt of this message:
- "Islamic Religious Services Will Be Held at the Firing Range at 0800 hours daily."
- "Do we really need 'smart bombs' to drop on these dumb bastards?"
5. All commands are instructed to implement sensitivity training upon receipt.
83. Getting back to the original topic, the Muslim community's "peace march and demonstration". This event is taking place a couple of miles from where I live so I intend to be there as an interested observer. I wonder if I should wear my "get us out of the UN" T-shirt?
However kooky Robertson and Falwell may be I have yet to hear either of them (or any other high profile Christian/Jew/etc) advocate
murder/terrorism. They may say after the fact that it was deserved. That is a big difference between the kooky Christians and the Muslims who do not speak out against these barbaric actions.
Gabriel - is that clear enough?
The particular mosque that has been referred to here hasn't made a peace peep about the world-wide Muslim killing of "infidels" (and even their own) that has been going on for years if not decades. How do you feel about that?
Their new concern for peace comes with Israel finally have had enough of the countless indiscriminant rocket attacks against their civilians since the Gaza give-back.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that when this "peace" rally finally goes down it will not even mention the willing targeting of Israeli citizens by the Hizbos and will focus on Israel stopping whatever they are doing (which BTW, is not targeting civilians).
Peace is a wonderful thing but it aint worth squat when somebody wants you dead and is able & willing to follow-up on it.
Gabriel is in consistent denial. He just can't admit to himself that there is no analogue to Islam in any other major religion. I challenge Gabriel to provide me with photos of where Christians in the US have held a march with numbers carrying signs that said "Death To Mormons" or something similar. But I can show you photos of where Muslims have marched in the US with signs that say "Death To Jews." I also challenge Gabriel to provide a quote from a high ranking Christian church official declaring and imploring Christians to take up arms against some other people of another religion or culture. But I can show quotes from Islamic Mullahs and Ayatollahs declaring those statements towards Americans and Jews. I challenge Gabriel to provide a current quote from the leader of a major Western Country like France, the US, England, etc. that actively declares genocide as a means to an ideological dispute. But I can show a quote from the leader of Iran that said just that.
Bottom line is that those responsible for Islam are preaching hatred. And that hatred is trickling down to the flock all throughout the world. It's going to be interesting to see what signs are being carried by the Muslims in Seattle's Peace March. Hopefully they are less flagrant than the one's carried by those in marches in New York, London, etc. Doubtful.
When a religion has its high priests declaring and disseminating hatred and violence, and when its prcatitioners fail to loudly condemn and turn away from the statements of the leaders, there is no choice but for the rest of the world to confront and condemn this behavior.
Gabriel, stop apologizing for organized hatred. And stop trying to disconnect Islam from its leaders. The facts speak for themselves. If the Seattle Muslim community is truly against the statements of Muslim leadership, let them speak it loudly from every mosque. Let every Seattle Imam declare that they do not accept Islamic Fatwas from the Middle East. Let them declare that they do not condone terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas. Let them open their books for inspection so that we know that none of their donations go to support Islamic hatred. Let them denounce jihad and the belief that those who do not practice Islam are infidels that must be killed.
It would be a good start.
87. Yes, Gabriel. As a matter of fact, I would be annoyed at a Jewish peace march, a boy scout peace march, a white protestant peace march, or any other activity that hinders emergency vehicles. It's a rather selfish form of expression, in my opinion.
Islam offers you three choices.
Christianity offers you two choices.
Not to accept Christ (you can choose anything you like).
In Islam virtue is imposed form the Mosque/State, and punishment here and now.
In Christianity virtue is the result of individual choices, and punishment in the afterlife.
In Islam there is no difference between church and state. The Mosque is the State, there is no secular.
In Christianity, since Luther there is a line between church and state; between the religious, state and secular.
Sheesh. Jeff, let me spell some things out for you.
1) I absolutely believe that fighting terrorism should be one of our top priorities.
2) I believe that in order to do so you must recognize that fanatical Islam is the driving force behind global terrorism.
3) People that refuse to identify Muslim terrorists as Muslim are being ridiculous.
4) Jeff, I've never apologized for organizational hatred. I detest Islamic fanatacism. And I recognize that its manifestations are unique in the world - however, I pointed out that not all Muslims should be painted with one brush, and made the analogy that you shouldn't paint all Christians with one brush just because some Christianists are insane. People started running with that comment and the thread got completely off topic.
5) I support the state of Israel. Shocked? You guys can try to make me out to be a lunatic lefty all you want, but the truth is that I'm a centrist, and if the GOP can't have civil dialogue with centrists like me, then you might be in more dire shape in November than I even expected.
6) All of this began with me disagreeing with Stefan trying to demonize local Muslims for not being apologetic enough. Not only is he wrong to assume the worst as far as where their sympathies lie, it is not helpful for us. We need moderate Muslims, period. He is actively blowing them all off. And you all are apparently in denial about CAIR's statement of support for the Jewish community.
90. Jeff B. Well put. I'll be taking my camera with me tomorrow. I'll get a few shots of their signs. I expect the "peace march" to be an Israel bashing fest. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
I wish that is the case Obi-Wan, but here is the truth about how our military is really restricting our troops.
(if you are having trouble with this link try this one).
I know you meant your post as a joke but the truth is that the government is tying the hands of our troops and that is why we are losing. Just like in Nam.
And that isn't funny. And Bush is just allowing our troops to go around in Iraq with their hands tied behind their backs and without needed equipment like body armor.
Makes me sick.
I believe the only rules our soldiers should be made to follow is to win. War is hell and one needs to be ruthless to win.
I support this war, but we will not win it the way we are fighting now. We need to fight it like we fought World War II, not like how we fought it in Vietnam. Our troops are great, I don't blame them, I blame the politicians (including the Bush adminstration) and the Brass within the Pentagon.
If the marchers denounce only Israel, then I do not believe it will be a productive message. If they announce support for Hezbollah or Hamas, then I will believe they are not truly in favor of peace.
CAIR does routinely send out press releases denouncing attacks on "innocent" civilians. However, there is controversy as to their definition of "innocent".
Wikipedia - CAIR
Yesterday "I'm a centrist" Gabriel posted this on another thread: "The Republicans under Bush have monstrously damaged our security and standing in the world with their ineptitude and short-sightedness. It's amazing that you can sit there and predict such dire consequences if the Dems gain power, when in fact the nightmare scenario is outside your door right now. We're mired in a long war which Bush does not know how to fight, he will never admit he is wrong, he's a big-government conservative, and he's put the country in the hands of religious nuts more than ever before."
I'ts a game the left plays deliberately. "We're moderates", "we're centrists", "we're mainstream". How about, "we're socialists"?
Check out this Yahoo Group.
It's getting lots of activity.
want to march? good--then 'march' down to the local police station with any of your community's "bad apples" who are preaching hate and plotting; until then, it's just a farce;
and to the local residents--i suggest you take a lot of pictures--especially of marchers' faces; it's your right; and who knows--you may snap a photo of a soon-to-be-famous movie star or otherwise ;)
Kudos for the statement you made in comment 89. However, the larger point that most commenters are making here is that Islam deserves scorn and condemnation as a mythical "religion of peace" and as an obvious source of violent hatred. That was the point of Stefan's post. It is possible to paint Muslims with a broad brush because the terrorist attacks and attempted attacks all have the common denominator of Islam. In as much as we see statements from folks like Jeff Siddiqui, or the lack of statements from local Muslim leaders condemning what has clearly become a major component of their religion, then the rational man concludes that Islam has not yet acknowledged its problem. Nor will anyone rational take a local "peace march" seriously.
Ask yourself if you'd take a white supremicist peace march seriously? Peace Marches have become fashionable as a way to get in front of cameras and get news cycles devoted to the action line that Islam is not guilty for the statements of its leaders, or for the widespread practice of terrorism by its followers. But a "Peace March" is not a change in policy. And, the facts are obvious. Every time there is another plot uncovered, or another terror attack, the faces are the same. Young Muslim men. And many of them make their allegiances clear either through their statements or actions.
No Muslim "Peace March" can be taken seriously until the active dissemination and support of hatred from the Islamic Leadership at all levels is condemened and stopped.
97. A "Peace March" in Tehran, Damascus, Mecca, Riyahd, Gaza City, Pyonyang will be met with massive machine gun fire from the practicioners of "the religion of peace". Gabriel, change your diapers.....
"Yes, Larry, I believe in looking for terrorists. Geez, this is like banging my head against a wall."
Then why haven't you answered my question as to WHERE YOU WOULD LOOK FOR TERRORISTS?
And you claim it's like banging YOUR head against a wall. Getting you to answer a question is like giving the cat a bath.
99. Bill C. - Gabriel spends his time trying to get everyone not to use the "broadbrush" against Muslims, but when it comes the "broadbrush" against Republicans and conservatives, he is all for it.
Well Larry I did get Gabriel to answer a little softball question I lobbed at him,(see #73).
However on any question of substance Gab along with most all lefties either dodges or ignores. I love listening to Michael Medved try to get these guys to give a direct answer. Such fun.
Bill C. - Gabriel spends his time trying to get everyone not to use the "broadbrush" against Muslims, but when it comes the "broadbrush" against Republicans and conservatives, he is all for it.
Exactly. And of course Gabriel is really a "centrist". I wonder if he could explain sometime exactly what "centrists" stand for? Are they pro choice?, pro life?, for smaller government? for school choice?, against higher taxes?, for the repeal of the death tax?, for a strong defense? Please Gabriel, enlighten us!
Perhaps a 'centrist' is someone who would have finished the task in Afganistan and completed the hunt for OBL before launching an unnecessary war in Iraq that was poorly planned and poorly fought and that has proven to embolden our enemies and weaken ourselves.
But perhaps more importantly, a 'centrist' is someone who strives objectively to understand the world as it really exists before he acts in it in consequential ways rather than someone who interprets that world through an ideology that ignors inconvenient facts and acts in total disregard of all who question its vision.
MJ posted:"But perhaps more importantly, a 'centrist' is someone who strives objectively to understand the world as it really exists before he acts in it in consequential ways rather than someone who interprets that world through an ideology that ignors inconvenient facts and acts in total disregard of all who question its vision."
Call me stupid, but I have absolutely no idea what you're rambling statement here means. Perhaps you could explain it to the rest of us in plain english.
Almost 7 hours ago, Gabriel, you said you'd stop feeding the trolls.
How about you STHU now?
OK, Bill: You're stupid.
Any religion that preaches hate and death to non-believers ceases to be a religion and becomes an ideology, no different than aryan nations, KKK, or david koresh. None of them are covered under freedom of religion.
Something to consider - Muslims. (and Gabriel)
Bill, I apologize. Just couldn't resist.
You're right, I rambled. Too lazy to take the time to be clearer. In a nutshell, I meant that a 'centrist' could be seen as someone who is more objective than ideological. I consider both party's bases to be ideological most or even all of the time. They interpret, and then act in, the world based on their ideologies, rather than on facts more or less objectively uncovered.
Still too dense?
OK, Bill: You're stupid. (MJ #106).
More intelligent discussion from the left side of the spectrum. Respond directly to my post? Of course not.
Boy that Gabriel is a tricky guy-he now calls himself MJ. It appears, based on the lucidity, clarity, logic and lack of detail, combined with brilliant alternate strategies revealed in post 103, MJ stand for mushy jello.
Wait, I think post 103 was copied from the website of todays version of the classic military strategist General Sun Tzu-Nate Lamont. Or maybe Maria Cantwell.
And, maybe, just maybe if we ask pretty please, click our ruby slippers together 3 times, the war on terror will be over!!!!
What an inane bunch of posts on this thread.... Suggesting the peace marchers should be rounded up and killed, Islam is a religion of hate and violence, anyone that doesn't think this is a "bleeding heart liberal". ?!
After seeing all these post, I figured that the Idris mosque in Northgate must be one of those fanatical groups, bent of the death of anyone non-muslim and would certainly have a big message up about the suffering of the muslims in Lebanon and Gaza. Have any of you actually taken the time to look at the website, or are you just in your own feeding frenzy, looking for someone to blame?
I see a message condemning the killings at the Jewish center, I see a posting for a women's group at the mosque, I see the five pillars of the muslim religion that I had never seen before, but nowhere did I see ANY incitement of violence.
There is more incitement to violence on this thread than there is on the Mosque's website.
112. Splinter, I too hope that the members of the Idris Mosque are sincere in their hopes for peace. I didn't see any condemnation of Hezbollah on their site...did I miss something?
Whenever some new poster like "Ann C" shows up and posts some extremist crap, it's usually one of the liberal trolls posting as someone else on the same thread. Take your pick.
As for Muslim groups condemning the Seattle shooting, great. But that has nothing to do with condemning Hezbollah and other terrorist groups, or recognizing Israel. Once they start doing that, I'll listen.
Splinter: How about reading posts 3,5,12,17,18 above?
Oh, but facts and reality are oh so inconvenient for the gullible and the useful idiots of the world.
Take another bong hit, you'll settle down.....and leave important stuff to adults...
Hank: "How about reading posts 3,5,12,17,18 above"
What about them? Just a lot of fear mongering and trying to paint all muslims as the exact same kind of extremist. I'm a Christian, but I certainly don't practice the type of "Bible Worship" made popular by the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwel and their kind. All Christians are no more identicle than all muslims and it only feeds hysteria to make the claim.
Honestly, you sound like a bunch of old women wringing your hands in hysteria, ready to be attacked at any moment.
I think a muslim peace march is a GOOD sign, not something we should use as an excuse to question intentions over. IF they start marching and it turns into some sort of pro-hezbolla/anti-israel rally... then you have a right to criticize them.
"Bible Worship" made popular by the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwel and their kind.
Here we go again. Weren't Falwell and Robertson mentioned by someone else earlier in this thread?
Splinter, if you can show me where "mainstream" muslims proclaim the right of Israel to exist and condemn Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism I might take you seriously.
Bill: "Here we go again. Weren't Falwell and Robertson mentioned by someone else earlier in this thread"
It only demonstrates that a few extremist do not in any way represent an entire religion. Are you going to actually debate that, or just evade?
Bill: "if you can show me where "mainstream" muslims proclaim the right of Israel to exist"
OK... a couple quotes from the todays headlines of "Muslim World Today"...
"Enlightened armies do not use the camouflage of their civilians to protect themselves. Is there no comprehension and curiosity as to why, whenever launching platforms and command and control centers are detected in Lebanon, sitting nearby are the soon to be wailing mothers and their children whose blood will be featured on the latest Aljazeera and BBC broadcast several hours later, their lives having been hijacked and destroyed by cynical terrorist leaders."
"Israel is now fighting two of radical Islam's most virulent versions - the Shiite Hizballah and the Sunni Hamas. Israel fights not only for its own survival. Its ability to defeat Hamas and Hizballah, will effect the survival of the U.S. and all Western style democracies - including those who blame Israel for using "disproportionate force."
This just in from the MSM: Sources identify the three,(plane bombing plotters), who are now in custody, as:
--Ahmed al Khan
As I said in #33. Not exactly "asian" sounding, are they.
Splinter writes: Bill: "if you can show me where "mainstream" muslims proclaim the right of Israel to exist"
OK... a couple quotes from the todays headlines of "Muslim World Today"...
Fascinating stuff actually. This muslim publication takes on Syria and Iran as well. Refreshing! Gives one some hope. We'll see first hand tomorrow if the same sentiments are present at the "peace march". Thanks Splinter for contributing some substance.
MJ #108 "You're right, I rambled. Too lazy to take the time to be clearer. In a nutshell, I meant that a 'centrist' could be seen as someone who is more objective than ideological. I consider both party's bases to be ideological most or even all of the time. They interpret, and then act in, the world based on their ideologies, rather than on facts more or less objectively uncovered.
I'm still not clear what you mean. I certainly don't understand what "facts more of less objectively uncovered" might be.
I think particularly folks on my side of the fence act on principles, (like the difference between right and wrong for example), while those in the "center" tend to blow back in forth in the wind depending on what their polls tell them. Clinton was a master at that.
Bill (#109) I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt that you were writing #109 as I was posting #108 and that you didn't read it, or otherwise you would've seen that I did at least try to respond directly, and civilly, to your #104 post, despite its somewhat rude tone. But jeez, you gotta lighten up. I was joking. And you gotta admit, you openned yourself up for it. Again, no offense was intended.
But Hank (#110), what kind of a moron are you? Or perhaps you're just some kid whose frontal lobes have yet to mature and who still thinks rudeness and ad hominem attacks pass for wit and intelligence? In either case, if you object to something I said in #103, then respond intelligibly and not like an idiot with a 5 cent vocabulary and a 1 percent mentality. Do you not think we should have finished the war in Afganistan and run OBL to his grave before we dissipated our efforts in Iraq? Do you really think that the Iraq war was a wise strategic decision wisely conceived and executed? Or perhaps you doubt that ideology too ofter substitutes for analysis in this administration? All valid points to argue and debate, but you do neither. Crap. G*ddamn morons like you drag blog conversations into the dirt. Go back to your sandbox.
122. And you want me to lighten up? Goodness MJ, watch your blood pressure! It doesn't take much to get you guys to blow your stacks, does it?
Sorry, Bill (121), by 'facts more or less objectively arrived at' I only mean to pay homage to the social scientific notion that objectivity is hard or even impossible to achieve in the study of social phenomena.
Contrary to some I don't believe science and principle are necessarily incompatible, and neither do I think either "side of the fence" has a monopoly on truth, virtue or the American Way. Being a 'centrist' (not my word, I would prefer moderate or independent) need not imply being a relativist. It probably does imply being willing to listen to your opponents' arguments and open to compromise if the situation allows. Ideologues, on the other hand, tend neither to listen or to concede the possibility of error. Now I'm not talking here of talking with a religious fanatic, as by definition he's probably not all that reasonable. I am talking about talking with other Americans, whatever their political position.
As for rising to your bait on Clinton, I think I'll pass. The man had his problems, but he also had his moments. It's a shame that so many people spent so much time hating him that they spent none learning what he had to offer. And the day I quit learning from anyone, even and especially my opponents, is the day they're putting me in the ground.
Thanks for taking the bait "MJ"
Just how many names do you post under here, anyway? I think you get so confused even you can keep them straight.
Why don't you try something novel and new. Use your real name or a reasonable representation thereof.
This is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.
Bill, "Shooting fish in a barrel"? What is your problem? Somebody piss you off? You would rather sling invective than have a conversation? Lost for anything intelligent to say? Going 'Hank' on me?
You misunderstood my quiry "you guys?". I was again joking with you. I was poking fun at your tendency to label people you know nothing about. Sign of a paranoid.
And I've never posted here under any name but "MJ", which are my initials.
But I waste my time. Pearls before swine and all that stuff.
Well MJ, the centrist.
Ah, centrist.....one who cannot make up one's mind on a guiding philosophy.
Ah, yes, the tired liberal talking point that Iraq somehow is different than Afghanistan, or Iran or Syria, or Wallingford. The old talking point that libs could run a war smarter. That the war on terror is somehow different depending on location. The tired old talking point that killing one man, OBL, would magically make all this stop.
The centrist whose post at 103 is such convoluted pablum that it utterly unintelligible. I am embarrased for you.......
The old liberal talking point that if only the war had been planned better it would have gone better.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, and we liberals are intellectually so much brighter than anyone else, why, we libs could even talk the Islamofacists over to our point of view-if we were only in power.
If you libs are so bloody bright, why are you the minority party who does not control the House, the Senate or the Presidency?
Move on, folks, nothing of note here, just another delusional liberal.....
MJ: A novel idea for you..How about offering some solutions? Since you are so much smarter than everyone in the Pentagon, in the Administration, and especially those on this post....
Er, not to confuse you, solutions that actually enhance our safety? Like, dude, no terrorist/nuclear/etc attacks in the US, or Fremont?
How do you change the attitude of the Iranian govt towards Israel, US(in case you forgot, that is us-the bad guys)?
How would you deal with Isreal/Hamas/Hezb?
What about dealing with Al-Sadr in Iraq?
Hint: The 4 answers are probably talk, talk, talk, talk and inevitable magical enlightment back in Tehran. Then some cumbaya. Pass the joint.....
"MJ" seems to have forgotten that he's really "Gabriel" whom I first tried to get an answer from pertaining to what does a "centrist" believe. Maybe too many bong hits?
Bill Cruchon, you are the man.
With all due respect, Bill, a centrist has no blooming idea what he believes.
MJ/Gabriel/Linc Chaffee, why it is amazing.
These people live in the most prosperous society for the most people in the history of the world, and are embarrassed about it, do no understand the prosperity comes from freedom, free enterprise and capitalism, and they want to destroy all of those things that put them in the spot of being able to spend time on this post, and not be murdered for doing so.
And the rest of us American adults will defend them, too. Not that we deserve a pat on the back, but these characters certainly should.
Exactly, Hank. "Centrists" are really moral relativists that don't have any foundation in principles at all. I think we've proved that with "MJ's" ridiculous academic babble, (#103). I wonder which local college he teaches at? Ok, maybe that's unfair, but would you be surprised?
And yes, these poor folks are totally unaware of how thankful they should be. I wonder if they realize that the plastic in their computers come from (gasp!) oil!
One thing I detest about the wild world of blogging is the tendency for some to try and shout down dissenting opinions. The ad hominem practiced by Bill Cruchon and Hank these last few posts lessen the value of Sound Politics.
I am solidly in the conservative camp (and before you challenge me on that, make SURE you have read my previous posts), but that does not make me want to make the other side shut up. I much prefer to hear what they have to say, even if it is coming straight from looneyville. It helps nobody to attack them personally or make implications as to who they are or what thier motivations are. The only useful thing to do is ignore the trash and address the points in a logical and coherent manner.
Unfortuatnely that is NOT what Bill and Hank have done. It is, however, what MJ has done, and I very much would rather enter a debate with MJ on this topic than Bill or Hank because I would learn nothing about the topic from Bill and Hank.
MJ has addressed, albeit indirectly, the fallacy that one side has all the truth and the other side is evil or stupid. Idealogically I disagree with much of the left. but sometimes I disagree with the right as well. Depends on the issue. I decided I was a conservative AFTER I listened and weighed the facts. I did not start out conservative and then adopt the "party line". There is a clear distinction here.
I am willing to grant any moderate or liberal the respect of their convictions and am willing to discuss the salient facts of a case without ad hominem statements. It is possible they could be right, or at least not inconsistent with their convictions. I may disagree with them, but I don't have to hate them for it.
This blog would be much better if people focused on the facts presented and give up trying to "label" a poster or attack their character. Every attack lessens the atacker more than the attacked and dilutes the integrity of all the posters on this blog.
So, knock it off.
Ah, the old moral equivalency argument.
Because someone refuses to defend our way of life, and posters on this sight dont like it, and say so, somehow is trying to shut someone down?
Personally, I love it when these characters spout off drivel. The more they talk the more they reveal their own inconsistencies. Unclear, disjointed, nonsensical, wandering thinking is somehow supposed to be treated kindly?
If these characters would actually present a valid new thought, why we would love to have a real live discussion. We are waiting. You are forgetting all we have been hearing is the same boring old lib talking points. Like a Chatty kathy doll, pull the string. Same old, same old.
And these characters refuse to answer a question, because they cant.....
Moral equivalency: similar line of thought regarding accomodating urinating drunks: they are people just like you and me. I dont think so.
No one here is "shouting down dissenting opinions" and you know it "Eyago".
135. I've been waiting for hours to talk about "Gabriel..la". While I won't add comments, much anymore because of Stefan and his voter database...I cannot contain myself...! Has anyone clicked on Gabriel...la's name after his post to got to his blaaaa-log?? This morning I looked at it and it seems that he throws out his opinion right and left and no one cares to comment. It seems that since he's/she's getting no attention on his/her blog that he's got to come here to raise hairs because no one cares about what he/she thinks about his/her opinion on his/her own blog! What a joke!!!!!!!!
Has anyone clicked on Gabriel...la's name after his post to got to his blaaaa-log??
Make that "go to his blaaaa-log?
Sue, I did make the earlier comment @ 82 as a joke. I found the phrases funny, and was being a bit sarcastic re: the comment about becoming more sensitive and tolerant.
When I was in the Navy many years ago, a few of my friends wore a shirt that read, "Join the Navy, travel to exotic lands, meet interesting people, and kill them." I realize that some will find that type of humor sick, but we want the members of our armed forces to have an agressive attitude towards the bad guys.
I viewed the slide show on the ROE. Personally I thought the rules were reasonable. Are they perfect? Doubt it, and perhaps they could be improved.
I believe that there is a big difference between how we're fighting this war and how the war in Vietnam was fought. The SecDef was Robert MacNamara who was way over his head. He was brought into the administration from Ford Motor Co. There they were all concerned about statistics and measuring everything. So we get body counts every day, the idea being that if we kill more of them than they of us we will win. Progress in a war can't be measured like a manufacturing process.
Another major problem with Vietnam is that the politicians were too involved in the day-to-day operations. LBJ was picking targets. And with the repeatability/measurability mentality, our Navy pilots were told to fly the same route to the same target at the same time. The VietCong could set their watches thanks to the politicians, and they knew when and where our planes would fly. No need to aim, just start shooting at the right time. From what I know this administration is letting the military handle the operational details.
What we did learn from Vietnam is that we may be able to win the war militarily, but unless we win the media war all is lost. So the ROE may be overly restrictive in order to keep civilian casualties to a minimum, which is difficult when the enemy dresses the same as the local grocer.
Just my observations and opinions.
Sorry Bill and Hank,
I read everything MJ posted on here and I saw no "moral equivalnecy" arguments or any other such drivel and yet you jump all over this person with ad hominems simply because MJ said that they were a "centrist".
And yes, what you were doing was trying to shout them down. I have been a regular reader here for 2 years, I know when someone is engaging another poster and when one is using attacks to shut them down.
Personally, I love it when these characters spout off drivel. The more they talk the more they reveal their own inconsistencies. Unclear, disjointed, nonsensical, wandering thinking is somehow supposed to be treated kindly?
Exactly. As one spots off "drivel" they reveal their own "inconsistencies". Use a mirror. Regardless, it is not grounds for treating anyone UNkindly. Spoting off drivel is not sufficinet grounds for "abuse".
If their words convict them, what more do YOU have to add by name calling and ad hominems? If they are not backing their claims with logic and fact, simply call them on it and stick to the facts yourself. In this case YOU were the one spouting off unsubstantiated drivel. MJ simply stated their political alignment and you drew inferences not stated nor supported with facts.
Better luck next time.
Hmm "Eyago" you must have missed "MJ's" post #121. Very civilized and rational.
The point was that "MJ", and "Gabriel" claim they're centrists. It's a technique the left uses over and over again. If these guys are "centrists" then I'm Leon Trotsky. When someone sees through their charade they get real, real mad. Don't they?
My point is that it is incorrect to attack someone for choosing the lable centrist. gabriel made it clear where his position was by his posts and those views can be torn down on their lack of merits. MJ was torn down for his/her choice of political "label". That is the difference. I'd prefer we stick to the views presented and not attack the character on the basis of labels is all.
In 121, MJ did present a debatable issue, but that was not debated. (Not that I think it would have yeilded any meaningful debate since the issue's mentioned will devolve into opinion due to the lack of facts for either side in addressing the "strategy" of the war on terror, but that is beside the point.)
It is perfectly legitimate for someone to disagree with whether we should have gone to war in Iraq. It was a judgement call that our President had to make, and I will suppor the decision once made and not undermine it after the fact. I was mostly ambivalent before hand, but I think the President (and many others) thought Saddam was a threat, and I think there is a valid purpose behind following through with a threat once made, and the US and UN made plenty of threats. To fail on following up on a threat is often very dangerous. The hawks wanted to go after him the doves wanted to negotiate. The hawks won the "debate" and so the President did what he thought was best.
The point is, it is not anti-American or looney to say that the Iraq decision was the wrong choice. There will always be a continuum of responses to any situation, and people have a right to hold their opinion regardless of where it falls on that continuum. I have the right to tell them they were wrong to chose their position, but I have no need to ridicule them for their postion. Rather, I can stick to the facts and show them why I think they are wrong.
141. MAN THIS MUSLIM PEACE MARCH IS GOING TO KILL BUSINESS AT MY STORE TODAY I HOPE NOTHING CRAZY HAPPENS KNOWING SOME OF THE CRAZY PEOPLE IN THIS AREA IT PROBABLY WILL THOUGH BUT LETS PRAY FOR PEACE I HAVE SERVED OVER SEAS AND DO NOT WANT TO SE ANY THING HAPPEN ON OUR DOORSTEP I LOVE PEACE AND WILL FIGHT TO MAINTAIN IT EVEN IF I HAVE TO TAKE THE MUSLIMS SIDE TO ACHEIVE IT
"I LOVE PEACE AND WILL FIGHT TO MAINTAIN IT"
hardee har har
the actual march seemed pretty calm, most seemed to be interested in peace for peace's sake, like the mennonites there.
there were a fair number of signs like this one
and yet no signs acknowledging the party of god's involvement in the conflict
144. I was there too errhead. Nice work, you got a better photo of that guy and his sign than I did. I agree most of the signs were strictly of the "we want peace" variety. Indeed, there was not a sign in view acknowledging the role muslims play in keeping the conflict in the middle east alive.
marches don't mean squat to me; nor do "Co-lishin's"--
they are code-speak for liberal public tantrums; signs held aloft to me in this "peace march" hold the same value as the cardboard one at the highway entrance of a fit & able-bodied urine-soaked freeloader beggar;
what do i trust? ACTIONS--like turning in the perps from YOUR OWN COMMUNITIES that you think are engaged in illegal activities--it's that simple--nothing more--you want acceptance from the wider communities? then WORK WITH US--or isolate yourselves--it's your choice.
don't pizz about your sad feelings; they are your People & Your problem--help us or stand aside and choose not to be Americans; but CHOOSE sides now--
just my opinion--