July 21, 2006
Dangerous boondoggle

The Seattle Times reports: "I-90 floating bridge can be made safe for rail, officials say"

Sound Transit says it has figured out how to run trains across the Interstate 90 floating bridge without being derailed by wind and waves ... But [Expert Review] panelist Alan Kiepper, retired president of New York City Transit, said heavy trains would load the span to 97 percent of its intended capacity. He even mentioned the original Tacoma Narrows Bridge, which collapsed in 1940 in a notorious case of hubris by engineers.

"Let me say, 'I have great concerns about the use of the bridge for light rail, and probably buses, and 97 percent is not a comfortable figure for me,' " Kiepper said.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at July 21, 2006 08:53 AM | Email This
Comments
1. Maybe it will take the inescapable horror and resuling gridlock of a mega disaster caused by extreme heavy winds, choo choo trains, an over capacity bridge that hopefully floats, all created by overreaching, arrogant social engineer/doo gooders who permeate every single transportation agency in this state, in order to get clear thinking adults in charge of transportation policy. Doug McDonald-call your office.

Losing the I90 bridge, with deaths in the hundreds might wake up the public to the utterly insane and dangerous planning going on at WSDOT, etc.

But dont hold your breath------other than when crossing the floating bridge in the wind next to a choo choo.

So far, $90 million I90 squirrel bridges, empty bike lanes, HOV wet dreams, insane costing train schemes, an asthmatic and tottering Viaduct, empty buses clogging up traffic, already losing one I90 floating bridge to planning incompetence, has not woken the general public up....yet...

but a death bath will......

Posted by: Hank on July 21, 2006 09:18 AM
2. The first step in restoring some sanity to transportation planning in Western Washington is making sure this dangerous ballot boondoggle fails in Nov. 2007. At that point the legislature will be forced to de-couple the RTID proposal and the ST2 proposal. The legislature needs to drastically re-think how to proceed in order that we do not dig ourselves into an even deeper hole.

Some of what RTID would address has huge merit: redoing the SR 520 bridge and its approaches, for example. But approving yet a third unaccountable board with unlimited taxing authority (just like SMP and ST) should prove beyond even what the voters of this region can stomach. That is especially the case with this upcoming joint ballot measure, because the necessary road and bridge fixes the RTID campaign supporters will harp on will come burdened with a voracious parasite - ST2. Sound Transit's "billions for Bellevue yuppie commuters" plan certainly would fail standing alone. Isolating ST2 by defeating the joint ballot offering that is heading our way must be priority one.

Posted by: Al Simpson on July 21, 2006 09:41 AM
3. Perhaps this is meant to cause the RTID to fail. If memory serves me, the 9 cent gas tax increase will only pay for a portion of all the projects and the remaining cost will have to be in other forms of taxes. If the other forms of taxes, in other words the RTID, does not get passed this year doesn't the 9 cent gas tax get to be used by WSDOT as they see fit and not neccessarily for the projects they claimed it would help fund?

Posted by: TrueSoldier on July 21, 2006 10:06 AM
4. How quick we forget...

Can anyone remember the Sound Transit Train derailment in Tacoma at the Sounder Station? The engineers designed the area where the train's park to withstand a 9.5 earthquake...but it did not take a week before a train FELL OFF the tracks! It took 6 months and who knows how much money to fix!!!

In Tacoma, on Pacific Avenue, where the Tacoma Link runs, the sub-straight of the road is failing after just two years of service!

Now they tell us that they can run the Sounder Trains across Lake Washington on the floating bridge...sound like a "WET DREAM" to me!!!

Posted by: Pacific Grove Phlash on July 21, 2006 10:10 AM
5. Are they adding the rail after they add the 2 additional lanes and the "Landscaped Lid" to the bridge??????????

Ummmm, you forgot the 100 million in sound walls and the 100 million for cable barriers in that delightful tax package.

I consider the 5 million for the Seattle trolley car in south lake union to be a waste of taxpayer funds also.

Posted by: sgmmac on July 21, 2006 10:12 AM
6. Not to worry. The Alaskan Way Viaduct will collapse first and all the money will go to that fix.

Posted by: swatter on July 21, 2006 10:29 AM
7. It all smells bad to me.

Posted by: Michele on July 21, 2006 10:32 AM
8. I understand that they are proposing that the trains be equipped, using automotive airbag technology, with self-inflating water wings. This will allow the train to float as the bridge sinks.

Posted by: G Jiggy on July 21, 2006 11:20 AM
9. The insistance on going through with this silly idea shows self-inflating egos are the real problem. It should be made mandatory that all senior government officials use existing public transit 90% of the time. No more chauffeurs and no more luxury gas guzzlers. And taxis do not count as public transit. The dopes in charge need to either take the bus or the current commuter trains. This would also apply to the greenie weenies who keep voting for these things "so other people can use them".

Posted by: Burdabee on July 21, 2006 11:27 AM
10. Burdabee is right, Transit authorities should have to use the mass transit they are promoting. I mean they could always car pool together in one of those clown cars.

Posted by: TrueSoldier on July 21, 2006 11:30 AM
11. Sound Transit first needs to complete the light rail from King Street to 1 miles north of SeaTac airport, before they begin thinking of running light across Lake Washington

Also Washington State DOT has sunk 2 bridges already (Hood Canal and I-90) so I would not rely on their expertise in determining if something is safe

Has anyone considered running light rail on the BNSF track that goes from Renton to Everett?
This is the operating railroad that Ron Sims wants to purchased, decommission, and make into a bike trail

Also there is the old Interurban that runs from Seattle to Tacoma and Seattle to Everett

Has anyone considered returning this to light rail?
Currently most of it is owned by the electric companies and or has become roads

Posted by: Green Lake Mark on July 21, 2006 05:17 PM
12. Is this a pure engineering problem or is this a politically colored engineering problem ? Junk science runs abound - careful. I have heard contrary - that the Mercer Island Bridge would not support light rail with an average load. This information/data needs to be published and publically and have it held up to public and expert scrutiny - to see if all assumptions are valid. If this information is not made pubic, there is only one thing to assume - that this claim is baseless and it is more smoke & mirrors.

The problem with using the BNSF track from Renton to Everett, which would be a big $ saver, is that the tracks are ~3 feet too close to each other - An employee of BNSF (for 20+ years) told me this several years ago. Remember what happened to the Monorail last November - the same would happen with light rail and any other trains passing simultaneously - due to the closeness of the tracks.

The other option would be to move on set of tracks say 5' farther away - how much would this cost ? Is it feasible ? and how does the cost compare with the other options currently on the table ? These questions need to be asked.

Posted by: KS on July 21, 2006 06:26 PM
13. If the Light Rail takes the floating bridge to 97% of it's capacity, then I just hope the Mayor of Seattle and the King County executive don't ever ride it together over that bridge.

But I'm sure given their divine need for Limo's, Town Cars and Big Ass Hybrids plus a dedicated driver who takes two round trips each day just to get their sorry ass's to their Penthouse suites, they will never choose Light Rail for their own means of getting to and from work.

So let's just hope that a light Rail full of commuters is never on the bridge when both of these hypocrites are taking their tanks to or from Bellevue!

It would not be a pretty sight!

Posted by: GS on July 21, 2006 09:44 PM
14. What would be wrong with the gas tax increase of late paying for a nicely engineered SR99 re-build and the SR 520 improvements from I-405 to I-5? There's enough money there for that, and that is what is most important economically.

Forget Sound Transit.

Posted by: just sayin' on July 21, 2006 10:30 PM
15. My recollection is the BNSF tracks from Renton to Everett are essentially a single track.

Currently the Diner Train runs from Renton to St Michelle and other local freight is delivered.

At one time Boeing was shipping fusealages from Renton to Everett

There may be passing tracks, but I am not sure where they exist outside of Renton

Posted by: Green Lake Markt on July 22, 2006 08:13 AM
16. So chalk up another dumber than dumb stunt by the 1980s era state DOT. They told us they'd build us a new bridge that would support rail. They were right I guess. But to come within 3% of making it? Good grief.

Posted by: thor on July 22, 2006 10:13 AM
17. To hell with it all. Think BIG!

Fill Lake Washington, get the fill dirt off of Rainer it blocks the view to the South, build new N-S link, several E-W links and use the rest of the new land for housing.

Insert evil laugh. Bawahahahah.

Posted by: JCM on July 22, 2006 01:22 PM
18. Some of you are trying to use engineering logic or financial responsibilty arguments to deter the transportation mavens from following their light rail agendas. Foolish people! Light rail is all about FAITH. Light rail is the transportation utopia, the siren call of silent and clean whisking of happy commuters from portal to portal. Do not try to argue with that kind of faith. Consider it like communism, no matter how often it is tried and failed, it is only because "It hasn't been done right yet".

Posted by: Cliff on July 22, 2006 01:24 PM
19. Sound Transit link light rail - social engineering is another name for Communism American-style. It may eventually work, but it will be a catastrophic economic drain on the region and the returns will be miniscule for all of the money spent and will take many, many moons to pay for itself - and may never do so, if Armageddon occurs before then.

Posted by: KS on July 22, 2006 11:29 PM
20. Sorry to pull so many of you away from your conspiracy theories and hyperventilating delusions but:
+Sound Transit is not a Communist conspiracy
+There are positive and viable solutions to our traffic mess other than more concrete lanes
+light rail offers a very real solution to what we have now (AKA gridlock)
+An additional $80 or $100 in taxes a year is not that much to pay for an alternative solution that is proven in other parts of the country and the world
+like it or not, light rail is being constructed right now between Northgate and SeaTac and it will be operational beginning in 2009
-- that is only three years from now according to my calendar
+in case no one has heard the news, 520 reconstruction/expansion and the Alaskan Way viaduct are already recognized as top priorities for our region in terms of construction -- as set into law by the last legislative session

Take off your tinfoil hats folks and recognize reality. We need solutions to our traffic problems caused by our growing economy and continued influx of people. If you don't have a solution to put forward, keep your mouth(s) shut and PC blatherings to reasonable level.

The reason we have the transportation gridlock situation we now have is because of those who offer no solutions but only complain about suggested alternatives.

Posted by: Sammy on July 23, 2006 06:03 PM
21. Sorry Sammy, the MINIMUM it will cost per household for the Grand plan is $250.00 according to the PRSC working group on Transportation. You will never get buy-in for large portions of the working population to go to Mass Transit because it doesn't allow for the flexiblity needed for a Service based economy. Government employees should be mandated to lead by example starting now. Light rail is meaningless without an effective feeder system to get people to the fixed stations, Auburn as you know is already over capacity and ridership is no where near removing any meaningful volumes from the roadways. Punative pricing models for tolls to impact commuter behavior is just another example of how out of touch the transportaion planners of this region are. Four dollars to cross Snoqualmie Pass? A defacto tax increase on almost all of goods and services brought to or from the region, and who pays? 125 Million for Gerbil bridges on I-90 make as much sense as running a train across the Lake
Washington floating bridge at 97% of the rated load capacity, which is NONE in case you were wondering. If you do not want population increases just put the region into a growth moratorium based on constraint of infrastructure instead of piling people on top of each other like cordwood into the highrises from hell you planners are going to allow in downtown Seattle, Bellevue. Until we have an all new team leading in Olympia and King County, this region will continue to be a joke on transportation issues, NO solutions just more money. Sammy, if actions need to be taken for meaningful congestion relief for the existing population we have a twenty year track record of how not to do it and these are the same folks pushing light rail.

Posted by: Huh? on July 23, 2006 07:31 PM
22. Huh?,
I was addressing light rail costs and Sound Transit's proposals. The three scenario's offered are .3, .4, and .5 sales tax incremental increase or 3, 4, and 5 cents per $10 retail purchase. The PRSC "working group" is for something else, perhaps including road construction and other transit.

Sure mass transit isn't for everyone, and it isn't intended to move a majority of commuters. It is designed to take cars off (including and especially single occupant vehicles) the road and provide an alternative to get from place to place. And, yes, it is supplemented by transit, buses, & car pools and van pools. Imagine if we were able to shift 300,000 riders onto rail and off roads. So you want gov't workers to be mandated to ride mass transit. Good idea. Go ahead and try to get it passed into law and union settlements.

Yes, you can "rail" against new highrise residential structures in Seattle and Bellevue, but the fact is they are being built and sold as fast as they are put on the market. There is also a whole lotta office space being built in these two downtown core areas and only one parking space is built for every 2.5 workers. How are these employees going to get to and from work without a mix of transit, rail, and car/van pools? The status quo ain't working and the growth continues -- either accomodate the growth or try and stop it. Good luck on the latter...it never has worked to stop growth, ask an enviro.

Posted by: Sammy on July 23, 2006 08:44 PM
23. Sammy, the PRSC is indeed working with all of the major player in the Regional Transportaion planning process including ST. The Vision 2020+20 Plan currently being worked on takes in to account all aspects of the Planning process including Transportation, Land use, infrastructure and environmental issues. The $250 per year per household number is a low ball estimate for everyone in the three county planning area and includes the initial impacts of the Transit NOW proposal and the RTID.

Your arguement against mandating Public Sector Employees from utilizing Mass transit is exactly why the underlying transit options do not work for Non-public sector employees as well. So why do it? No congestion relief will come of it. The increasing Vancouverisation of downtown Seattle will leave it the soul less honeycomb of highrises, blotting out the sun from almost every angle.

People with families and the financial capabilties to do so will flee as they are today (over 100,000 school aged children in Seattle Public schools in the 1960's to just over 46,000 today with the overall population more than doubling). If you want to live in a 500 sq. ft. studio for $200,000 then go ahead, be prepared to really love thy neighbor,his taste in music, his penchant for midnight parties and the like.

As to the totally unwise practice of allowing buildout without proper parking I simply look to who has been in charge of the process for the last couple of decades,same names,same outcome,no improvements. If the Leadership of this State and County cannot or will not mandate transit use for their own public employees because of union considerations I guess we finally have an answer as to who is really driving the agenda and it's not for the good of the people.

Posted by: Huh? on July 23, 2006 09:45 PM
Post a comment
Name:


Email Address:


URL:


Comments:


Remember info?