May 21, 2006
Vicente - Las derechas iguales para los inmigrantes legales
Mexican President Vicente Fox comes to Yakima this week, and to Seattle for lunch at the Rainier Club.
A timely question arises. Will anyone have the cojones to ask?
Posted by Matt Rosenberg at May 21, 2006
05:54 PM | Email This
1. I think the second link is broken.
2. It is VICENTE Fox, not VINCENTE Fox.
4. So are we going to urge Presidente VICENTE Fox to support amending the Mexican constitution, so that naturalized citizens in Mexico have equal rights? The Mexican constitution specifically limits the military and federal elective office to native born Mexican citizens.
The Mexican constitution (or at least some Mexican law) was amended in 1999, so that el Presidente de la Republica no longer had to have both of their parents be native born Mexican citizens. This allowed Fox, whose mother is an immigrant from Spain, to be eligible to run for el Presidente de la Republica.
5. Richard,
thx, I've corrected the spelling of his name...
How Anglo-centric of me to have messed it up that way.
6. Well, the "Anglo-centric" sarcasm is a lot more civil than the FOAD remark from Manco_Dolares.
7. Like I keep saying, the protesters, at least in Seattle, choose the wrong day. They should be protesting on May 24, when El Presidente comes to town.
They should be demanding to know from him why they can't find jobs in Mexico, why they have to leave their families behind just to make low level wages in the US. They should be demanding to know why their home country is so poor, while Carlos Slim, who literally owns half the country's economic output, is now the third wealthiest man in the world (and soon to be first).
8. Mexico is yet another socialist armpit of a country. No wonder they flea by the bus load. Being friendly with Vicente is like being friendly with the Saudis. And no wonder he chose to come to the Socialist Republic of WA.
Ultimately our relationship w/ Mexico will blow up in the USA's face.
I'm sure Gregoire will be there at the Rainier Club with more nauseating quotes.
This state is a joke.
9. Jeff B. - Mexico is not a socialist country. Nor is it capitalist. It is a feudal society. Literally, there are a small number of feudal lords and a large number of peasants. Any socialism present in Mexico is just a facade, designed to fool the population, and also designed to ensure the status quo of the feudal system.
The feudal system once was based on haciendas - land just like feudalism in old Europe. Now, the haciendas are industries, and every major industry has a monopoly in it. The owner of the monopoly is the feudal lord of that "hacienda."
The government is deeply involved in "licensing" and providing permits for companies in each industry to operate. This is not because of some genuine social concern, but rather because the feudal lords use the red tape in the government to ensure that nobody else can compete with them.
Americans should wise up to the reasons that Mexico is sending so many people across the border. It is like an escape valve that helps the fuedal lords of the country maintain control. If 30 million people (the number of Mexico-born Mexicans working in the US) were still in Mexico, there would be huge protests there, massive civil unrest, possibly civil war. The country would be out of control and in the end the feudal lords might suffer.
So, everyone in Mexico - except the 90% of the population that is dirt poor - have a vested interested in maintaining the status quo. They want that escape valve to remain open, because it saves their arses.
The only way to stop the waves of illegals coming across the border is to force change in Mexico. People like Carlos Slim should be condemned in the US and have his assets in the US frozen. That would get action quick to open up the economy. Then, the country would employ millions more people. Illegal immigration problem solved.
10. BananaLand -- Good info for the most part, and I won't disagree that Mexico desperately needs economic and legal reform. But there are simpler ways of securing a border: North Korea also falls somewhat short of paradise, but you don't see anyone sneaking into the south, do you?
11. TB--people *do* sneak from North Korea into South Korea. More than a handful of malcontents, too--top N. Korean government officials have left their socialist paradise for the "decadent, capitalistic" country of S. Korea.
One of the problems with N. Korean emigration is the simple fact that person X goes missing, or is reported as having fled the country, person X's family is now under suspicion, and often put into "reeducation camps" (aka political prisons) to punish wrong-thinking (like fleeing the country). Some family members die in prison (not of old age--starvation or disease), some are taken out and shot. This puts a big damper on its happy, socialist citizens (many, if not most, of whom are too poor to even get the supplies together to run away.)
Mexico isn't this bad to its citizens yet...
Also, the border between the two Koreas is heavily, heavily guarded with mines, barbed wire, towers, and armed patrolling soldiers with orders to shoot. In spite of this, people have sneaked through the border--never from South to North. Most defectors don't go this route, preferring to make an end-run around, though.
In spite of various agreements and treaties, the N. Korean army has tried to build at least 4 invasion tunnels underneath the border.
Mexico isn't quite thi....oh, wait, Mexicans *have* built tunnels under the border, although the Mexican government didn't build them, and they aren't large enough to drive tanks through.
12. "Also, the border between the two Koreas is heavily, heavily guarded with mines, barbed wire, towers, and armed patrolling soldiers with orders to shoot"
now THAT sounds like border security. I would say that would cut the flow to about 2% of what it is now. Let's get to it!
13. Watch out...what is on the plates... is HOT!!!
14. Pseudotsuga -- But you see, this is precisely my point. NK is Hell on Earth in a way that Mexicans hardly imagine even in their nightmares, and what kind of numbers are we talking about having come across that border? Not 20 million, or anything close to it. Our border -- they come, and then often go home for the holidays, almost as if they were commuting from Portland to Seattle. It's a complete joke.
Skip the landmines, of course, but put a three-layer wall with randomly located motion sensors across our southern border, and when getting into the US begins to look less like commuting to work and more like a military operation, you will find that half of the problem (keeping them out) will have been solved right there, and the other half (getting them out) is quite manageable with the right changes in criminal and administrative law and enforcement. We could have the total population of illegals down to less than a million within two years without actively having to catch and deport that many of them.
15. Let's just keep a tab or balance sheet--when Fox comes, what does he bring for the US taxpayer? What does he take back? You want to visit? Pay a toll. As for Fox's human exports, cut the benefits to illegals. They will return on their own power the same way they came--or--force the employers or others (who want them) to sponsor them & pay the full bill--school and medical; stop making your neighbors subsidize your illegal workers! we all know the fake "round 'em up" argument is absurd--but--the "dry up the well" argument is much more practical & attainable with legislators with some brass nutz;
16. TB, you are totally misguided in comparing Mexico/US border crossing to North/South Korea. First off, N. Korea is a totalitarian communist wacko country where you even need a permit to take a trip to a different town than where you live. Those who cross to S. Korea put their life on the line to do that. The border between N. and S. Korea is about 155 miles long with a total of 4 miles (I could be wrong on this) buffer zone infested with land mines and barb wired fences on both end. The border on the water (ocean-side) is patrolled by heavily armored navy on the both north and south side. Crossing to Florida from Cuba is a cake walk compare to the risks these people take.
On top of that, everything else that pseudotsuga mentioined applies and more torturous stuff that you can't even imagine.
17. This is going to piss people off but what the hell. Good humor always contains at least a grain of truth and often can cut through the crap in a way that even "the world's greatest deliberators" (US Senate) could never even hope to do.
Will Fox arrive stowed in the back of a truck and come in the back door of The Rainier Club? Will he meet all the illegals that The Rainier Club currently employs. (I've no personal evidence, but I'd sure as hell bet that they do. Those fat cats have to keep costs down by paying Lupita under the table to clean the toilets and Jorge to make the salads.)
BTW, maybe someone could shout "La Migra!" at him and watch to see if he runs for cover.
18. What, are people just hell-bent on misconstruing what I am trying to say today? Let me spell it out, then: PHYSICAL BARRIERS CAN BE HIGHLY EFFECTIVE AT GREATLY REDUCING TRAFFIC ACROSS A GIVEN BOUNDARY. That's it. That's the message. It's that simple. And I feel compelled to point this out because there are actually folks arguing against building any sort of physical barriers between the US and Mexico on the grounds that they would be ineffective.
19. TB, I am not hell-bent on miscontruing what you said. I just wanted to correct the misinformation. I totally understand your point, and quite frankly, I am all for the fence idea. If those Mexicans can still make it even with the fence, more power to them, and heck, grant them the green card for the effort. Crossing the border illegally should become as hard as crossing to Florida from Cuba.
20. Have y'all noticed that our two Senitors like to vote for amnisty and against fences of any kind?
21.
Pseudotsuga -- But you see, this is precisely my point. NK is Hell on Earth in a way that Mexicans hardly imagine even in their nightmares, and what kind of numbers are we talking about having come across that border? Not 20 million, or anything close to it. Our border -- they come, and then often go home for the holidays, almost as if they were commuting from Portland to Seattle. It's a complete joke.
Oh, I see what you meant. Yes, the US/Mex border is pretty soft. The difference between that border and the Korean border is, of course, that the N.Koreans are trying to keep their own people from escaping (although they are conveniently, at the same time, preparing perpetually for the S. Korean invasion.) The extensive anti-tank barriers along the roads on both sides of the border don't keep N. Koreans from fleeing, for example.
Skip the landmines, of course, but put a three-layer wall with randomly located motion sensors across our southern border...
So those sensors will indicate somebody is moving at a certain spot. What will the response time be from the personnel assigned to respond to that spot? What if it's a ruse to draw personnel away from the real crossing point?
I don't think that spiffy expensive tech solutions are all that effective (or cost effective) in the long run. I don't know the numbers, but I wonder if manning the border with people is cheaper than manning it with machines?