Yesterday, while our government officials and government employee unions were marching in the streets with the "undocumented immigrants", I was filing my quarterly B&O tax returns. And that led me to think: Gee, wouldn't it be nice if I could be an undocumented business owner? Just as the "undocumented workers" opted to avoid the expense and inconvenience of obtaining proper documentation, I too would prefer to avoid the expense and inconvenience of operating as a documented business. But if nobody bothered to get themselves documented, who would pay for all of these wonderful social programs that some in government want to lavish on the undocumented?
Today's The Columbian has an article about the controversy over extending social services to "undocumented immigrants". "State benefit programs for undocumented immigrants draw fire". People who are taxed to pay for such programs tend to object, but those who are paid to administer the programs want to keep giving away other people's money --
:
Asking public employees who administer social service programs to verify citizenship status would be a burden, especially when government money is used to serve the homeless and operate food banks, said Mike Piper, director of the Clark County Department of Community Services.The fact that these sentiments are so widespread in government only convince me that those of who voluntarily comply with business regulations and pay our taxes are shnooks. I'm in the system now and I can't get away with undocumenting my business at this point. But if I were starting a new small business at this point, I'd be more inclined to remain undocumented. Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at May 02, 2006 01:52 PM | Email This
Burning our Tax ID card must be to.
So our disgust with the "system."
I am liking this. Could have had an extra $30K in my pocket last year.
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it
Billy Joel
Don't illegal immigrants, regardless of their documentation, pay the same sales taxes the rest of us do on every purchase made in this state? Do they not, therefore, fully pay for the state government services they recieve as much as the rest of us? These arguments about nonpayment truck much better in states with income tax regimes. Complaining that illegal immigrants don't pay into the system they draw from in regards to Wa. state government suffers from a slight lack of, how do I put this nicely. . . truth.
Posted by: MAX HATS on May 2, 2006 02:30 PMIf I went to Asia, Europe, and Latin America and asked for what Gregoire, Ron Sims, and Greg Nickels wants to give away in Washington, I would be asked to leave
Paying GST and other taxes is irrelevant
BTW Gustav's (3 in the Portland metro area) is not bad, but service is relaxed
Posted by: Green Lake Mark on May 2, 2006 02:44 PMyour argument is flawed anyway - the seond word sums it all up: illegal.
Why is this so hard to comprehend?
That's it. I'm buying a bunch of guns before King Greg, deanron, and Miss Krissy take them away. Then, I am going to rob a bank and claim that I am just searching for a better life. Not much differnt than this situation in my eyes.
Posted by: Eric on May 2, 2006 02:45 PMWell, what if they had a tax and nobody paid?
Posted by: Reporterward on May 2, 2006 02:56 PMdo they pay federal taxes and social security? No
Very true, but the post I am commenting on only makes impicit mention of Wa. state, via B O taxes. I'm not trying to enter the whole debate - honestly I don't even have a firm position to argue for and haven't made up my mind on everything. I'm just reacting to the particular rhetoric at hand. Soundpolitics deals with local issues, the post makes reference to state taxes, it's implicit the critisism of illegals is over their presumed nonpayment of state taxes. The thing is, they do pay state taxes.
do they spend any considerable amount of money here - i.e. generating sales tax?
A novel argument, but weird. By that logic, we should lower our quota on legal chineese immigrants. They tend to save so much, I doubt they pay back adaquately into the system.
Good timing- Thurston County has increased the home business permit as of May 1 (by ~500x which will result in almost a 1000X increase over the past 5 years.
Home "industry" permits are now $4000. Don't even think of baking cookies and selling them.
This is part of the orchestrated land grab going on down in Thurston in conjunction with CAO. They still want to increase the CAO area while increasing the cost of "assessing" your exemption by 100-1000%. The county commisioners have not yet posted the new fee schedule.
(cross posted at thurston pundits)
There is also gas taxes, property taxes, B&O Taxes, payroll taxes, yada, yada, yada. Yes, they pay some taxes here, but not the same amount that you and I have to pay.
The bo tax thing is puzzling, because that's only paid by business owners to maintain they're business. I doubt many illegals own businesses. Because they are illegal.
Payroll is paid on them (though isn't that federal anyway?) unless they are paid under the table.
Property and gas tax, like sales tax, like all user taxes, they do pay either directly or indirectly. Unless they all live in tents and bike to work.
Posted by: MAX HATS on May 2, 2006 03:07 PMOne I will no longer patronize:
- Elysian Brewing (this is going to be hard for me, but I won't support 'em anymore)
I may actually patronize Cafe Septieme, as a PI article said the owner fired the manager for scheduling everyone off on Monday since he figured he "couldn't fire the entire staff."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/268720_marchjob02.html (I am sure they guy will get his job back)
Posted by: TIME IS NOW on May 2, 2006 03:09 PMSimple question:
Is there presence in this country legal under current laws?
I'll answer it for you: No.
All other arguements are bull and pointless.
Posted by: Eric on May 2, 2006 03:12 PMLike I said, I don't even have a position. But the article we're all commenting under is disingenuous.
Posted by: MAX HATS on May 2, 2006 03:15 PM"Like I said, I don't even have a position"
sure.
Let's not try and justify the illegal actions of the illegal immigrants. There are thousands upon thousands of people waiting to get into the US via legal methods, why should people who run across the border in mexico get a pass while others wait to become productive memebers of our society.
Posted by: deport em on May 2, 2006 03:39 PMIt's been said that we can't deport 12 million people.
Many states have said that, for "humanitarian" reasons, they can not deny services to illegal immigrants.
What if a large portion of the illegal immigrants currently here won't, or can't, meet the new requirements? Would we still refuse them services or deport them? What would change?
Secure the borders.
Enforce immigration laws.
Enhance immigration quotas to be more in line with needs.
Withhold Federal funds for cities/states that openly ignore, or work against, immigration laws.
Make sure that current illegal immigrants do not receive preferential treatment ahead of people trying to come here legally.
Are illegal immigrants illegal people? Of course not, but by their ACTIONS they have immigrated illegally.
Is that the only thing they have done illegally? Probably not.
1. Crossing the border illegally.
2. Using forged documents (driver license, birth certificate, social security cards, green cards)
3. Lying on job applications as to immigration status. Would this include W-4 forms?
4. Using forged documents for housing, banking. etc.
5. Lying on forms to register to vote.
6. Voting illegally.
Not all who cross the border illegally does all of these items and some do even more and worse. My point is that the illegal border crossing is only the first illegal ACTION, normally followed by a few more. Why should these activities, if not caught or unpunished for a long period of time, move them ahead of those that have gone through the process?
One thing that constantly bothers me about this site are the commenters that reguarly attack people who present contrary views and arguments. It seems like some people cannot stomache debate. This isn't HA, stop trying to make it like that. Eric asked questions, answer them. If you are unable to counter them, stop resorting to ad hominem to cover up your deficiency.
I for one would welcom a clear breakdown of exactly what taxes verses benefits are paid/consumed by illegal aliens (I assume we can only get estimates.) This is a legitimate aspect of the whole debate.
We have several issues such as the state of our immigration that punishes the law followers and rewards the law breakers. We have to decide is immegration of mexican workers in high numbers good or not. We have to determine if they should be given amnisty since we were too inept to keep them out. We have to decide if we are at risk of a destablized southern neighbor. We have to decide if the migrant worker adds or takes away form our overall economy.
However, we should make sure we are arguing the facts rather than talking points. That means we should stop trying to shout down debate, it makes you as bad as those you purport to oppose.
Eyago
Posted by: Eyago on May 2, 2006 04:18 PMThe more I watch how the rights of citizens are being violated and our rulers standing idly by, picking lint from their belly buttons, the more I realize what contempt I've come to hold almost ALL of them in, from Bush to Gregoire.
Posted by: Cartman on May 2, 2006 04:20 PMThere are enough Federal programs for them, so that they should not be eligible for in-state programs. I'm really, really tired of paying taxes for law breakers, addicts of various substances, social misfits, & all the others who don't contribute. Every year the budget goes higher for all these feel-good programs that keep all the social service agencies & workers in business. And, don't tell me that they don't have a vested interest in seeing that all those programs continue to grow year after year.
When or where is it going to stop?
Posted by: Clean House on May 2, 2006 04:20 PM"Don't illegal immigrants, regardless of their documentation, pay the same sales taxes the rest of us do on every purchase made in this state? Do they not, therefore, fully pay for the state government services they recieve as much as the rest of us? These arguments about nonpayment truck much better in states with income tax regimes. Complaining that illegal immigrants don't pay into the system they draw from in regards to Wa. state government suffers from a slight lack of, how do I put this nicely. . . truth."
Illegals do not pay federal income tax, medicare or social security. But they DO get free medical care when they show up in emergency rooms. They DO get food stamps and welfare for which they have paid nothing. They DO get housing assistance through charity programs that receive federal grants.
Wasthingtonians for Immigration Reform
http://wfir.org/
Federation for Immigration Reform
http://www.fairus.org/
Also check out, Costs of Illegal Immigration to Floridians: Executive Summary for a detailed look at the costs of illegal immigration in Florida. Florida is probably not all that different than Washington in the costs supporting illegal immigration.
Finally, read FAIR's 7 Principles of True Comprehensive Immigration Reform
Cross posted at The Squeaky Wheel
Posted by: MJC on May 2, 2006 05:08 PMI was in a small Tacoma book store and the owners were sitting their ranting on and on about Bush, so much so that they were not even giving me the respect of basic customer service and I had not said a word. Needless to say, I'll never walk in their door again.
Posted by: Jeff B. on May 2, 2006 05:11 PMCreate temporary prisons along the border.
Put Sheriff Joe Arpaio in charge of those prisons.
While they're encarcerated they build the wall along the border.
When they've served their time send 'em back.
Posted by: Cool Hand Luke on May 2, 2006 07:14 PMIt's obscene how our state legislature lavishes our tax dollars on illegals. Buying votes? Maybe!
Posted by: Fed Up on May 2, 2006 07:29 PMWe are already seeing the impact of illegal voters. We see how they can influence an election to place their candidates into positions of power. If 10 million illegal immigrants register to vote in this country...we can kiss our nation goodbye! Remember - it was communist organizations who funded,organized and launched the illegal marches over the past weeks. It is these same communist orgs. who are now chanting "today we march - tomorrow we vote." They know exactly what they're doing. They are padding the voter base with illegals so they will have their candidates elected, their inititives passed, their taxes approved, their social services expanded.
How is that national voter database coming along? It had better be solid....Because it will be the ONLY means of identifying illegal voters. And - if the national database allows for all votes to be counted first - then weeded out - or - if the national database decides to pull a KC and insist the voter challenges be made in advance of an election within a small time frame...we're screwed.
Posted by: Deborah on May 2, 2006 07:56 PMI haven't been able to find Eyman's initiative either....In fact - I haven't been able to find any (conservative leaning) initiatives in any of the usual places. I'm in Kent.
Does anyone know of any areas these petitions will be for signing?
Look here:
http://www.letthevotersdecide.net/ref65.html
and here:
http://www.permanent-offense.org/initiativetext.html
I'm still looking for the WA State Farm Bureau's site to protect our "private" property rights.
Whatever that means!
Posted by: SP Fan on May 2, 2006 08:43 PMhttp://www.propertyfairness.com/
Sign them all! Send a message!
Posted by: SP Fan on May 2, 2006 08:45 PMIf this initiative wins, Gregoire or one of her minions will probably kick it over to the courts and they will try and twist the living constitution and manufacture a verdict that says that it is unconstitutional. It is worth the fight, though - as the sentiments are turning, thanks the tactics of the illegals who are showing their true colors - they want to be like strangers trying to move into your house and spend your inheritance.
Write your legislators at the State and Federal Levels to ensure that we secure the borders first, then pull away the welfare carpet that is driving this nation toward its demise - do away with benefits for illegal aliens and diminish incentive for the ones who are already here to stay !
Posted by: KS on May 2, 2006 09:05 PMIllegal is wrong. If they want to become guest workers that is fine and they can be documented and taxed and tracked....but there is a concequence to their illegal action which is they NEVER get to become citizens.
Posted by: Dengle on May 2, 2006 09:30 PMhttp://dor.wa.gov/Docs/Reports/2005/Tax_Statistics_2005/Table1.pdf
I think there are a lot of illegal alien contractor and gardening businesses that are "undocumented businesses" and don't pay any B&O tax (and where applicable, sales tax).
Posted by: Richard Pope on May 2, 2006 09:38 PMhttp://www.protectcommunities.org/
Posted by: Elaine on May 2, 2006 09:49 PMAny city (namely Seattle and Portland) that prohibits police from asking the citizenship status of someone stopped for a moving violation or search should be lose the appropriate Federal funding -which could be enacted by the President via Congress. Problem is, maybe not this President.
Posted by: KS on May 2, 2006 09:54 PMI know that I am free to complain about the Republicans running our country, but I must still live with their laws or get out of the country. Similarly, Stefan, you can rant all day about our Democratic-controlled state and county, but if you can't live with their laws, go to Idaho.
Posted by: Bruce on May 2, 2006 11:04 PMFunny you should mention moving to Idaho...the person whom I sold my company to, moved to Post Falls Idaho. His reasons were simple: No B & O tax, LNI is one tenth that of Washington’s, lower insurance rates, $25 tabs, lower state taxes, and lower business taxes. Post Falls gave him a ten-year property tax exemption on his new building and lot, lower labor cost, a forklift driver in Seattle will make $15.00 to $20.00 per hour in Post Falls $9.50 to $15.00 per hour UNION WAGES.
Get the point Bruce...if you ever had to run your own business,(paper routes and espresso stands do not count) you would hopefully know this. The last two years that I owned my business, all I was doing was working for the government and keeping 25 employees in a job. If my sale went up 5%, the government would take 8%. The person that bought my company said that for he and his wife were to make a good living they would have to relocate the company. They moved, and 23 people were added to the Washington State Unemployment roles.
I've never met Stefan, and won't presume to speak for him, but I didn't get the impression that he was advocating tax evasion.
My interpretation of his post is that it was a bit of tongue-in-cheek dry humor to make the point that the government is blind when it wants to hand out taxpayer money, but is eagle-eyed when it wants to collect that money from hard-working contributing members of society.
One of the great lessons from MLK and Gandhi is peaceful civil disobedience. If one feels that a law or situation is unjust, then one peacefully protests, violates the law, and is subject to jail, fines, etc., whatever punishment is handed out. By doing so one brings the issue to the public, raises awareness, and gradually convinces society that their cause is right and just. If Stefan did protest in this fashion I would hope that he paid the consequences and made people aware that taxes are too high. Unfortunately that wouldn't succeed. The liberal MSM (oops, redundant) would paint him as a greedy capitalist not paying his "fair" (hold onto your wallets when you hear that word) share, and an exploiter of the poor working class.
On the other hand, the illegal aliens are profiled as moral crusaders fighting for rights. What f***ing rights? They're here illegally. Yes, most are honest hard working people trying to support their family, and if I were in their position I would probably try to improve my life as they are. But I would keep a low profile, work hard, and not have an in-your-face attitude.
In conclusion, my opinion is that one can't have it both ways. One can't feel sympathy for and support illegal aliens who broke the law to get here and are breaking the law every second of every day by being here, and at the same time condemn someone for suggesting (however tangentially) to break the law in protest.
Therefore, all employees need a SocSecurityCard.
Social Security is not allowed to ask if you are legally in the USA. So, they give numbers to the workers who in turn give it to their employer.
But, then, there are those under the table employer records, where it is cash only. Those don't get taxed.
Posted by: swatter on May 3, 2006 07:19 AMSSA and IRS are not permitted to share this information with INS(ICE).
Since the money collected will never be paid back to the individuals, the government has little incentive to plug this "free money" hole.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on May 3, 2006 08:24 AMIgnorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. I also suggest there be a government program to help people such as you, understand sarcasm and irony. I'd be willing to pay more taxes for such a program.
Posted by: Jeffro on May 3, 2006 08:42 AMSeems they're going to have a confab on stealing elections.
Right now if Mrs. Gregoire wants to steal another election, she'd better not appear to "snuggly" with Vincente.
This could also make GWB jealous. He's always thought he was Vincente's #1 girl.
Posted by: Cartman on May 3, 2006 09:26 AMAs for me (and I think Stefan is on the same page) we are not talking tax evasion; we are talking tax protest.
"Undocumented" workers protested on Monday, to have "rights."
As a taxpayer I feel sorely abused. If "illegal" aliens are publicly supported by the likes of Ron (tax to the max) Sims, maybe (tongue in cheek) we should become "illegal" to get Sims et. al. to support us.
The current tax system 78,000 pages of Federal tax code is out of control, spending is out of control etc...
There is little discussion of real tax reform, i.e. flat tax, consumption tax at any level of government.
If just for example a fraction of WA business owners withheld BO there would be too many to prosecute, too many too ignore and real reform might result.
The irony is that those already committing a crime have the ear and sympathy of the media and large portions of government. While those struggling to meet every jot and tittle of the self employed tax code are called greedy by those that support criminals.
Posted by: JCM on May 3, 2006 09:44 AMIllegal, if you have a problem with that, get a dictionary. Public school education is simply no excuse.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but no one is entitled to their own facts (lefties note!).
When we lived in the U district we were told repeatedly by SPD that they couldn't arrest anyone (break ins, thefts, car vandalism/theft, drug sales) because it would take them off the streets - WTF?
Lately I have heard too many people saying "Why respect the law?" All you need is a pitiful excuse for your actions and a democrat to stand up for you. Rule of law is dying a fast death.
/sad
Posted by: Fox3 on May 3, 2006 11:42 AMYou are a will-o-the-wisp liberal who will believe anything so long as it is not associated with facts.
To you, legality is a term of art. What else is new?
Nothing.
Statue of Liberty
Every single wave of immigrants through this countries history has been followed by a period of economic growth.
This is supposed to be a free country.
Not everything that is illegal is immoral.
Not all laws are good laws.
Civil disobedience has been a hallowed American tradition since before Thoreau and Rosa Parks. In fact, the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution can be seen as acts of civil disobedience.
Stefan's interesting comment about becoming an undocumented entrepreneur would be just one more example of patriotic civil disobedience in that same, great tradition.
In fact, any law you can break without significantly hurting someone else, is an excellent candidate for civil disobedience. All victemless crimes are absurd, and illegal immigration is just one kind of victimless crime.
I say we admit that prohibition of peaceful immigration doesn't work, raise the immigration quotas and let the ones here apply for citizenship.
By the way, Stefan, my buddy Jim J. up in Bellingham says he loves your blog, and sends you $5 per month via his credit card automatically! Keep up the good work!
Your oversimplification of the problem is pathetically naive. Illegal immigration victimizes every responsible American that abides by the rule of law in more ways that directly affect you than your limited abilities will allow you to recognize. Your solution is to remove the offending law.
The libertarian attitude you display presupposes that society as an artificial abstract is wholly unaffected by the need for positive laws designed to protect interests that are not directly manifested by immediate substantial hurt to someone. This short-cut pseudo morality says that if I want stuff for myself, I simply devalue it for others. Laws against trespassing into America protect us from too many potential problems than to list here and all of them will significantly affect victims in both the short and long runs. In effect, your short cut morality says, do your own thing man (and I will do mine while you are not looking).
"In fact, any law you can break without significantly hurting someone else, is an excellent candidate for civil disobedience.”
This means not only can you do your own thing man . . . you can do others’ things too, and laws that are not directly manifested by immediate substantial hurt to someone, should be disobeyed. Since you don't recognize the necessity to regulate anything, you don't need to recognize anyone else's rights unless it significantly hurts you. Further, because you recognize that everyone else is as careless and immoral as you are, they don't need their stuff as much as they think . . . so why not help yourself?
Judge: Julio Gonzalez, you are released on your own recognizance pending a hearing to determine citizenship and charges for vehicular homocide [gavel cracks]Hey man, its O.K. unless it significantly hurts someone; so, what you don’t know now cannot hurt you (until you find out) and besides you don’t really need your stuff as much as the illegal immigrants do. Hey man, its only stuff. Have a heart, man . . .
-
Julio: Se senor. (Screw your momma judge, you can't identify me, you can't deport me, I stole the car, and I will steal another tonight and do it all again, and there is nothing you can [will] do about it) (I wonder where you live, how much cash you keep and what your daughter looks like)
Magic liberal solution--if you are unhappy with the affect the law has on YOU, simply ignore it. Hey man . . . it was like . . . a bogus law anyway man.
Dear Senator Frist:
There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.
#1.
Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen.
Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing, and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.
#2.
There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take low wage jobs, live dozens in a single residence home, share expenses and send money to their home country. There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a decent wage.
#3.
Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT homeless and they are NOT Americans. Some left jobs in their home countries. They come to send money to their real home as evidenced by the more than $20 billion sent out of the country each year by illegal aliens. These illegal aliens knowingly and willfully entered this nation in violation of the law and, therefore, assumed the risk of detection and deportation. Those who brought their alien children assumed the responsibility and risk on behalf of their children.
#4.
Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful U.S. residents.
#5.
This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.
#6.
The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S. accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.
#7
There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between. Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.
#8.
Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I, Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II, Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War, Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today, Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, checkout some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren.
#9.
Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to break the law and trash another nation?
#10.
There is a labor shortage in this country? This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.
#11.
It is racist to want secure borders? What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?
For about four decades American politicians have refused to secure our borders and look after the welfare of middle class Americans. These politicians have been of both parties. A huge debt to American society has resulted. This debt will be satisfied and the interest will be high. There has already been riots in the streets by illegal aliens and their supporters. There will be more. You, as a politician, have a choice to offend the illegal aliens who have stolen into this country and demanded the rights afforded to U.S. citizens or to offend those of us who are stakeholders in this country. The interest will be steep either way.
There will be civil unrest. There will be a reckoning. Do you have the courage to do what is right for America? Or, will you bow to the wants and needs of those who don't even have the right to remain here? There will be a reckoning. It will come in November of this year, again in 2008 and yet again in 2010. We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.
David J. Stoddard
U.S. Border Patrol (RET)
Hereford, Arizona
SAVE AMERICA
I will address each of the Frist Letter points:
1)The solution is to cut those benefits, not to limit the free actions of peaceful people who want to work.
2) This demonstrates a lack of knowledge about economics. At a higher wage, these jobs would never be offered. Since Americans don't tend to accept these wages, these jobs do not really exist for them. Therefore, illegal immigrants DO take jobs that Americans tend not to want.
3) A desire to work hard and improve one's lot is the core of the American dream. I'd say any Mexican who opens a restaurant and becomes an entrepreneur in America is American by spirit or by philosophy. Of course we must take responsibility for our own actions. Our legislators' actions were to make peaceful actions of Mexican migrant workers illegal. It's prohibition of peaceful activity, and it hurts us and our economy, as well as violates our national principles of Liberty and justice for all.
4) 5% of the workforce is huge! They improve our economy and make all of us richer in the process! Excluding them would be self-destructive and immoral.
5) But now add all the Americans who's parents or grandparents are immigrants... Now you are talking about most Americans. My paternal grandfather was born in Canada... I'm 1/4 Scottish... Of course at one point even the French were immigrants. But that was how many thousands of years ago? Just about everyone came here less than 200 years ago. Quite a difference... We are a nation of immigrants in a way that the French will never be.
6) We accept more legal immigrants in absolute numbers, but how 'bout as a percentage of our population? What if we would all be better off if we accepted MORE?
7) Some hispanics are even Libertarians, the third largest party in the US. But pandering still makes political sense, just as niche marketing makes sense to entrepreneurs. It's special interest politics, and it won't go away as long as people do not value rights in principle, but instead believe in the tyrrany of the majority or unlimited democracy. Just because we outnumber the illegal immigrants, does not give us the right to take their rights, just as they lack the right to seize our wealth. We must deny unlimited democracy in principle in order to keep the moral high ground.
8) And yet, it is still in our interest to allow their best and brightest, their hardest workers, their "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" to enter our great nation. Wouldn't you trade one Mexican worker for ten welfare-dependant Americans? Let them move to France if they want welfare socialism! :)
9) And most of those Billion don't WANT to come to the USA. But the people who come here DO. They are more likely to be our kinds of people... They seek freedom, liberty and work. Every mouth comes with two hands. I say "welcome."
10) See my answer to 2).
11) All of our rights are EQUAL. We are all equal defore the law. It's racist for the government to treat people differently based on the color of their skin. Private people will discriminate, but the law can not prevent that...
Look, prohibition of alcohol didn't work back in the 20's. Prohibition of immigration won't work in the '00's. It creates the coyotes and the sweatshops and hurts our economy and violates our rights. It gives the government the moral cover to break in to businesses to hunt down illegal immigrants.
Let's keep our country free. Let's defend the principles that made this country great in the first place.
Free minds, free markets, and free individuals.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any government becomes destructive of these ends it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it..."
Here it is. Civil disobedience is built right into the founding document of this country.
You live in a Libertarian country.
I think youre right. I hadn't heard that point made before. User taxes are the mainstay that subsidizes WA. All consumers pay.
So far as paying FICA & Fed. income tax. Many illegal immigrants pay that too. The Feds. have accepted their dollars for decades.
That duped many employers into thinking illigit papers were ligit.
Many recieve employer funded medical insurance too.
Dems & Repubs are not too far apart on solutions. The rhetoric is often loud -- emotional on both sides- even diametrically opposed but solutions are not.
I was suprised to hear Rushbo himself today say that he thought some type of guest worker ligitimization strategy for those here would be necessary.
You make some good observations. User taxes are the mainstay that subsidizes WA. All consumers pay.
So far as paying FICA & Fed. income tax. Many illegal immigrants pay that too. The Feds. have accepted their dollars for decades.
( That duped many employers into thinking illigit papers were ligit.)
Many recieve employer funded medical insurance too.
Dems & Repubs are not too far apart on solutions. The rhetoric is often loud -- emotional on both sides- even diametrically opposed but solutions are not.
I was suprised to hear Rushbo himself today say that he thought some type of guest worker ligitimization strategy for those here would be necessary.
You refuse to engage my comments because you cannot argue rationally against the points I make. Your whole approach to this subject ignores the key fact that if an immigrant is not legal, they are not and should not be entitled to the same status as one who is legal.
You can burble on ad infinitem with lies and half truths about economics, but you cannot defend your own basic point. Moral relativism is the refuge of criminals and dishonest liberal scofflaws. You would be ashamed of yourself, but you are too impressed with how good it makes you feeeeel to pretend superiority by dissent.
Wait until your children are assoulted by illegals who are not subject to our laws because of the fear of authorities of being labeled anti-hispanic. Go ahead and pretend that illegal Mexican trespassers are here to take legitimate jobs that Americans won't. Have fun playing at your liberal feeeel good pretense of expansive tolerance and equanimity as they continue to arise as the new recipients of a dream paid for by the labors of those they exploit because you are too stupid and cowardly to look reality in the face.
I respect legal immigrants just as I respect those natives who care about America.
You are a sanctimonious punk, and your attitude fits with those you haplessly defend.
Get used to giving head to Mexican gang leaders, because if you have your way, that will be your reward.
His pandering liberalism is saturated with the conviction that history, laws, and society are best served if their fundamental foundations are shaken just beyond the breaking point by civil disobedience because it might feeeeel right to his miserably dim witted sensibilities.
Guthrie has every right to his opinion and I applaud him for expressing it most especially because he shines a bright light on his ideas and America’s biggest problem.
PURE, EMOTIONALLY DRIVEN STUPIDITY. IN A WORD--LIBERALISM
His deliberate ignorance of our Constitution, our history, and the current realities of criminal intent would be breathtaking if we had not all been prepared for it by three decades of incremental liberal insanity gone berserk. Let Guthrie face the problems created by his anti- civilization, anti Constitutional and anti American rhetoric in his own little arrogant simplistic nonsensical way. Preferably somewhere out of the way amidst his bong smoke and grunge reveries.
BRUCE GUTHRIE, go write a song like pink.
Continue our committment to American Constitutional Law not ridiculous pin-headed interpretations of it, and our survival as a nation. Let civil authorites act civily to protect our citizens from interlopers, enforce the law! Reward those legal immigrants who came here and played by America’s rules.
Close the borders, build a good fence and patrol it, impose strict sanctions against illegal criminals living illicitly in America, require all workers to have a Social Security number and ID card, and deport as many illegal criminals living illicitly in America as possible.
Vote Republican--it is the only hope we have to stay free from communism and one-world order.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 6, 2006 12:27 PMHere is a really good letter to the editor that was written by a Libertarian friend of mine in Hawaii. I wish I had written it. Not all that is illegal is immoral.
Dear Editor,
I hear a lot of nice people say that immigrants who are working in the US
illegally are criminals and should be deported. These people confuse legality
with morality.
It was illegal in the 1850's for desperate slaves to run away from
plantations and it was illegal for abolitionists to shelter them from police in
the North and South. But it was moral.
It was illegal in the 1930's for desperate European Jews to violate the US
immigration quotas in their flight from Hilter's Germany. It was illegal for
friends, relatives, and smugglers to help them defy guards on both sides of the
border. But it was moral.
It is illegal for many immigrants in the US today to seek freedom and
productive work. It is also illegal to pay them for work. But it is moral.
America's Founding Fathers recognized that they were breaking the laws of
the British empire when they signed these words, "WE hold these Truths to be
self-evident, that all Men Are Created Equal, that they are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and
the Pursuit of Happiness." Their actions were illegal at the time. But they were
moral.
People who act morally are courageous, not "criminal." I admire moral
courage. I don't admire those who outlaw moral human action.
Sincerely,
Ken Schoolland
Obviously you feeeeel tghe need to respond or you wouldn't have. The revealing thing is that you are an idiot with idiotic comments that you cannot defend.
Thanks for proving it.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 7, 2006 11:36 AMToday, any immigrant that wants to work in America can apply to come to America and work. Many legal immigrants do this every year (far more than any time in history). It is illegal trespass, ignore American sovereignty, and to steal services AND opportunities from others that are not yours. More importantly it is immoral because when you dilute the rule of law, you diminish societies' expectations of civility and you directly encourage other lawlessness. Law breaking, stealing, trespassing are what Bruce Guthrie calls MORAL. Bruce Guthrie belongs in Cuba.
TRUTH Yes, America's Founding Fathers recognized that they were breaking the laws of the British Empire when they signed these words, "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men Are Created Equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." In the eyes of the British Crown, their actions were illegal at the time, and their actions were moral.
America's founding fathers were not invading a sovereign nation and what they did was in no way comparable to the illegal actions of Mexican and other illegal aliens claiming rights by “existence” alone in a country that is not their own.
Bruce Guthrie says that ”People who act morally are courageous, not "criminal." People who commit crimes are criminals, and criminals who act immorally are degenerates entitled to the butt end of a gun as are those who encourage them with cynical lies. Given Bruce Guthrie’s obvious limitations, anyone would be justified in saying that it is moral for them personally to eliminate anyone they don’t agree with and therefore, their “moral acts” are courageous, not "criminal."
STUPID CRIMINAL JUSTIFICATION Bruce Guthrie says that he admires moral courage, and that he doesn't admire those who outlaw moral human action. This is convenient, because here, Bruce Guthrie in his twisted and perverted way decides for the rest of us what moral human action is. In fact, Bruce Guthrie proves that he justifies criminal enterprise by calling it moral courage and any action he likes is moral.
. . . IT IS TRULY CHILDISH TO MAKE UP THE MEANING OF THE WORDS OF AMERICAS FOUNDING DOCUMENTS especially as Bruce Guthrie does WITHOUT A HINT OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THEIR TRUE MEANING
Bruce Guthrie cites the part of the Declaration of Independence that says,” governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any government becomes destructive of these ends it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it..." and he follows it by saying , ”Here it is. Civil disobedience is built right into the founding document of this country.”
Bruce Guthrie is obviously too simple minded to recognize that the founders were referring to a necessity to try “first to use constitutional devices to adjust their grievances.” See Understanding the Constitution, by JW Peltason, p.5.
In our constitutionally founded government, the “right of the people to alter or abolish,” our laws are inhered in Art 1 Sec 7 which provides for Amendment of the Constitution. If morons like Bruce Guthrie want to amend our Constitution so that anyone who walks onto American territory automatically becomes a citizen, he is free to do so. Until he does, illegal immigration is illegal, immoral, cowardly, criminal and as boorish and simple-minded as Bruce Guthrie.
Bruce Guthrie — a look into the mind of a petty criminal with an "obviously liberal" education.
Posted by: Amused by liberal stupidity on parade on May 7, 2006 01:52 PMIt is offensive to hear our President say that we need them to do the jobs that Americans won't do. AMERICANS WILL DO ANY JOB FOR A PROPER WAGE. George is on the WRONG SIDE OF THE FENCE. DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE.
Democrat demanding give guest worker amnesty , couple years in next legal citizen always RACE TAX to feed mexicans who always breeder kids and always living in welfare ,they are theft!
ALL politic just care about latinos vote but they dont vare protect their peoples ...this really suck !
Posted by: suck on May 8, 2006 06:53 PMYou suck.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on May 9, 2006 08:59 AMQuote:
"I work at a grocery store and yesterday this Mexican couple came in speaking Spanish with at least 5 or 6 kids. They bought over $400 worth of stuff and used their food stamp card to pay for it, there was $23 left owing and the man took out a wad of hundreds to pay this amount.
It's obscene how our state legislature lavishes our tax dollars on illegals. Buying votes? Maybe!"
First off you have absolutely no way of knowing if this family is illegal. Secondly, I would bet they are legal and most likely citizens as illegal immigrants are not eligible for Food Stamps in Washington state. So what if he pulled out a wad of hundreds. They very well could not have a bank account. So he may cash his check for the month and then they do the monthly grocery shopping and then they have to take the rest of that cash to go pay their rent, childcare, gas, bills, etc etc.
Yes, illegals pay taxes. They pay as many as you or I do. In fact the Federal governemnt supplies what is called an ITIN(Individual Tax Identification Number) for this purpose (those who have U.S. Income, but no Social Security number) and gladly accepts their money.
I do not know any (and I know a good number of illegal immigrants) illegal immigrant that does or could even afford to send 90% of their income out of the country. I also tend to raise an eyebrow when someone quotes "something they heard or read somewhere" as a fact. In fact the U.S. Citizen spouse of an illegal immigrant becomes ineligble for any Earned Income Credit they might have recieved.
Those who do not have legal residency papers, and even some who do(depending on the timeline) are not eligible for most Social Services such as food stamps, housing assistance, and medical assistance. They do use many private social services such as Food Banks and other charities. They can also use WIC for a pregnant mother or U.S. citizen child. The one problem I have to agree with is the use of the E.R. for medical help which often leaves unpaid medical bills or lengthy payment plans.
Talk about a$$umptions!!
Your willingness to overlook/justify strong inductive evidence of illegal activity in an anecdotal instance may get you points with liberals – but it means NOTHING substantive.
Wrong -- Illegal immigrants are not required to provide evidence of citizenship to be eligible for Food Stamps in Washington State.
Wrong again, while some illegal aliens pay taxes (other than sales taxes), most do not, and they may pay as many as you do, but then that would mean you break the law as well. The mere fact that the fed created the “Individual Tax Identification Number,” doesn’t mean illegal aliens’ use it.
It is against the law for these "illegals" to be here genius . . . what compels them to pay taxes?? INNATE NICENESS??
Since you tend ”to raise an eyebrow when someone quotes "something they heard or read somewhere" as a fact,” don’t commit this use of phony authority yourself. You expect that because you say that you ”know a good number of illegal immigrants,” and that you ”do not know any . . . who can afford to send 90% of their income out of the country,” it means something. It doesn’t.
I am not sure what you are arguing for here, and it is clear that don't know either, but whatever it is, you failed.
Good for you. You have your mere opinion and it is worth all that it appears to be.
Thanks.