1. I have not read the linked articles, but I agree. Tolls built the current 520 bridge, and tolls should build the next one. And we still have the toll plaza in place, they can just put up the booths and start collecting.

Posted by: Legast on April 23, 2006 04:24 PM

2. With all of the other means of payment for road maintenance and construction (ie; General fund, gas tax, property tax, etc..) there should be no reason for a toll anywhere in this state!

If we allow one major roadway or bridge to have tolls..it will become the norm everywhere! You forget - that we live in greedy liberal Washington state!

Posted by: Deborah on April 23, 2006 04:29 PM

3. It is a nice way to pay for highways. However the problem is that the tolls are never removed after the highway expense is over. For example, the Mass Pike is still collecting and increasing tolls, long after the money was needed.

Posted by: Shawn on April 23, 2006 04:39 PM

4. Shawn, the 520 bridge toll booths were taken down once the bonds were paid off. So, maybe in Massachusetts they don't remove tolls, but they do here.

Posted by: Legast on April 23, 2006 05:02 PM

5. We definitely need some consistancy in highway funding... the new Tacoma Narrows Bridge is set to start charging tolls soon, and will be the only active toll in the state, starting with a projected fee of $3 per crossing (Eastbound only)...

Other projects of a similar scope - 520 rebuild, Hood Canal Bridge, Alaska Way, 405 enhancements, etc.- should all be give similar funding mechanisms. It's only fair...

There's also the pay-to-play option of changing HOV lanes to Lexus-Lanes...

Posted by: XXX on April 23, 2006 05:16 PM

6. The problem with tolls is that they are arbitrarily based on who builds which road when. Roads that were built when government had lots of money are free; new roads aren't. That gives arbitrary incentives for people to use free roads and penalizes people who happen to need the toll roads.

It makes more sense to charge a small toll for every road -- city streets, interstate highways, bridges, etc. Of course, it's unwieldy to charge a fraction of a cent every time you drive a block. But we already have a mechanism that approximates this: a gas tax. The collection cost is much less than tolls. A gas tax favors efficient cars over inefficient ones, which reflects other societal goals (less pollution, less consumption of non-renewable fossil fuels). The main drawback is that it incents people to buy gas in other jurisdictions (e.g., out of state if it's a state tax). But relatively few people are influenced by that incentive, and even fewer would be if the tax were nationwide.

I'm a realist; tolls to fund new roads may be more politically acceptable than a gas tax, and they do incent government to build new roads. But government theoretically should meet the needs of its citizens without an economic incentive. Tolls are less fair and efficient than a gas tax.

Posted by: Bruce on April 23, 2006 05:30 PM

7. But the Seattle Times endorsed it!
It's obviously part of a liberal plot to destroy America, so cleverly done that even Stefan doesn't see it!

Posted by: Raw Data on April 23, 2006 07:23 PM

8. Let the dashboard transponder crowd get their nose under the tent, and the state will expand -- and expand and expand -- data collection on the movements of all the sheeple. Your every movement will be recorded in a state database. DoubleplusUNgood!

Posted by: TB on April 23, 2006 08:00 PM

9. There is no end to their attacks on the pocketbooks of every person on this state. $101 tickets for almost everything, tab taxes ever rising, transponders, property tax increases, sales tax increases, fees on everything.

If it walks like a duck, it will be taxed. If it talks like a duck, it will be taxed. If it looks like a duck, Gregoire and the Dems will find a million ways to tax it.

Get rid of the tax happy bunch!

Posted by: GS on April 23, 2006 08:29 PM

10. "There's also the pay-to-play option of changing HOV lanes to Lexus-Lanes..."

Gee.....Why not just get rid of the HOV lanes so our traffic can run smoothly? The entire HOV experiment did nothing to ease traffic and in fact has been a major contributor to traffic backups and accidents! Why on earth would someone want to "pay" to "play" with somethng like that?

As always - the liberal's only want a means to control their subjects so they can collect money! The idea of collecting Tolls must have them drooling!

Posted by: Deborah on April 23, 2006 09:05 PM

11. Toll roads are an almost magical solution to traffic congestion, if they are an alternative to the "freeway" that has no tolls.

A few years ago, I visited the Dallas-Fort Worth area and saw their turnpike.

Viewed from the slow crawl of bumper-to-bumper traffic on the "freeway," it was virtually empty.

I asked my host why we weren't on that road instead. Did it go where we needed to go?

Answer: Yes, but it's a toll road.

I grabbed the quarters in my pocket and asked how far these would get us.

Answer: At least several miles down the way.

We got on and got where we wanted to go without wasting time.

I would pay for that convenience -- at least until too many other people caught on to it and crowded the toll road, too. (But, so many people resist paying for using a road when they can use another for free -- no matter the difference in congestion -- that I don't figure it would get crowded very soon.)

Trouble is, it doesn't appear that Washington's leaders want to offer a toll road as an alternative route to get where you want to go.

Posted by: Micajah on April 23, 2006 09:55 PM

12. I agree, we definitely need to get rid of the HOV lanes. That was a past topic on this blog, with vigorous debate.

The bummer about the new Narrows Toll is that they are going to start collecting it when the new structure is finished, but before the project is finished. We will have another year of driving on the new structure while the old bridge is being changed to a one way bridge with earthquake retrofits, etc. That's BS, the toll shouldn't start until the project is finished.

There's really no practical way to collect tolls on a per road basis. Transponders work well, but there will always be the idiots that insist on paying with cash which cause huge backups and provide cushy union jobs for the dolts who collect tolls. I think there should only be one cash lane. It would only take a couple of times of waiting in the mile long cash lane before people figured it out and got a transponder.

But the fact that we can't afford to properly maintain and build roads in this state without tolls is mainy the fault of grandiose mass transit failure. Every time you cross the Narrows bridge and have to pay $3, and a lot more in the near future, remember those empty unSound Transit trains costing $60k per year per passenger from Tacoma to Seattle. At that rate, it wouldn't take to long to pay off a new bridge.

Posted by: Jeff B. on April 23, 2006 10:04 PM

13. Deborah, you say that liberal's (sic) love tolls, yet I, a liberal whom you love to mock, just argued against tolls. Indeed, pay-to-play lanes are often the darling of free-market conservatives. Do you find this confusing?

Jeff B, I agree with your objections to tolls, yet your logic perplexes me. In the same paragraph you complain about "huge backups" in cash lanes, and then advocate "mile long" cash lane backups to discourage people from using cash lanes. Are you saying the lanes are too long so we should make them longer? Anyway, ideally cash lanes would be situated so as not to slow down other traffic, and cash tolls would be higher to cover the costs of toll collectors.

I'm also confused as to why you complain that toll collectors are dolts. Have you encountered toll collectors who are not intelligent enough to handle their jobs? Or do you think that government should hire overqualified people? Or do you just like calling people names?

Posted by: Bruce on April 23, 2006 10:19 PM

14. We already pay a general road toll every time you fill up the tank. It is called a gas tax. I love it when they say if you have a vehicle with great gas mileage you are not paying your fair share of the tax. The bottom line is government want to take more money from the tax payers.
I agree for tolls on the new bridge but expanding it means even more money taken from the people. Why to get you out of your cars. The only reason the paper agrees with it is that it means more people will have to get rid of their cars and use mass transit.
Look at what this area has done for new roads in the past 20 years. We had over a decade of gas tax collections yet no new general purpose lanes where ever added to the system. What happened to all that money? Spent all the gas tax money for HOV lanes. The backlog on road maintenance can not be met with current gas tax revenues. Yet you have the tricounty transportation board eating up most of the gas tax revenue on projects that will not increase capacity but lower capacity. In english, MORE TRAFFICE JAMS LONGER COMMUTE. You spend billions of dollars for a project yet the overall capacity is less. I say forget any tolls period. Increase the bus and train fares so that a minimium of 90% of the cost to run the system is paid by those using mass transit currently Tax payers are footing anywhere from 50 to 90% of operating costs after spending millions of dollars for setting up the project. The bottom line is that as each new mass transit project comes on line less money will be available to do road maintance let alone new projects.
As long as mass transit gets hundreds of millions of tax dollars every year to cover operating expenses you will not see the roads get any better unless you pay more taxes. Then watch the money move to other things. Remember the old license fees that was suppose to be used for roads. How many different groups used that money? It was money taken by our politicians saying it was for roads but used it on anything but roads.
Just like the lottery was for education guess what it is in the general fund now and every other year the schools ask for more money. So to will the tolls. and remember how efficient the ferry system is about tracking tolls. They can not balance the books and are off by millions of dollars of tolls collected yet never made it to the bank. It is the same people running the tolls system for our bridges and future tolls for other uses. For me I see no reason to go to seattle. So the toll is fine by me. I just want the system audited every year and if the books do not balance someone needs to be fired. Thats right this will be a union job and if you mishandle money you get a promotion and higher pay. I just love the way government works. Reward incompetance and punish success.

Posted by: David Anfinrud on April 23, 2006 10:32 PM

15. Wasn't the last gas tax increase and weight increase and license tabs supposed to pay for some new concrete?

Given the taxation pattern of WA, one would suspect that the current highways would become toll roads. Imagine one day a toll both on I-V. The toll would reduce highway traffic and increase funding at little cost to the state - the highway is already built. What makes you think that the DOT and the Queen will lay down new pavement, especially when you consider that no new pavement was laid down in this state for years. Hell, they can't even maintain the highways that were built by the Feds thirty and forty years ago. By their own admission the transportation infrastructure is decaying, the viaduct is unsafe as well as any number of bridges and overpasses suffering disrepair. The billions upon billions of dollars collected from the taxpayers paid for what exactly? Does anyone have a clue? Expensive trains running on BN tracks? If that is their idea of success, then we are most certainly doomed.

This state is unable to properly manage a simple election, what makes you think that the people who could not simply count votes are able to cope with planning and engineering problems? The simple answer is they are not competent. The complicated answer is that they are not competent.

Think about what they said during the last run for voter approval on the additional gas tax. The viaduct is unsafe. The seawall is decaying. Yet they were charged with the responsibility to maintain both the viaduct and seawall. By their own statements they admit to failure. The problem is not transportation; the problem is government ethics and failed leaders bought by special interests. The major systems of State and City Government are failing. Examples include:
Transportation
Education
Welfare
Crime and Justice

You may add other examples. My point is that we are witnessing a general collapse of state government led by a bunch of incompetent people who are not qualified for meeting the tasks at hand. We are suffering the consequences.

Posted by: Snuffy on April 23, 2006 10:51 PM

16. Jeff B says:

"The bummer about the new Narrows Toll is that they are going to start collecting it when the new structure is finished"

So, we'll have two bridges, the bridge could be paid off a little sooner, and they'll start collecting the tolls when the second bridge is being used -- which was the primary point (in addition to rehabilitation the circa 1949 existing span) of the project? By this argument, should we not pay the contractors and their employees for materials/labor -- since the job hasn't been 'finished'?

Assume for a moment that the second span were fully funded out of the gas tax, instead of, being like the cross-Sound ferries (i.e. the alternative means from getting from the Penninsula): a portion was paid by tolls...why should those of us who chose to live on "this" side of the Sound pay for the extra freight (a higher portion of the gas taxes collected on the east side of the Sound) for a bridge that provides benefit to those who chose to live on the other side of the Sound, commute to/shop on this side -- and which we might have little use for...if at all?

It sounds a little like the argument raised about state funds making up the difference between what Sound Transit collects (oh, and although the train doesn't have many passengers when it leaves Tacoma, by the time it gets to Auburn/Kent, most of the runs are close to being SRO... same thing -- in reverse -- on the return trip: SRO until Kent, then dropping at Auburn/Sumner/Puyallup before tying-up for the evening at the Tac station sidings.) and what the operating costs might otherwise suggest.

David says:

"Thats right this will be a union job and if you mishandle money you get a promotion and higher pay."

That's an intriguing accusation. Do you have a link or data to confirm the nexus between "promotions" and "mishandling money" -- rather than promotions potentially being linked with some other activity, or, a reassignment (into, say, a non-cash-handling position) being a result of that misbehavior?

"Remember the old license fees that was suppose to be used for roads. How many different groups used that money? It was money taken by our politicians saying it was for roads but used it on anything but roads."

Actually, I believe that it was fairly well known that it was a tax on personal property (the vehicle), rather than a source for (exclusively) road funds. I don't know that someone doing a minimal level of research couldn't have determined this if they wished. How far in the budgets of the state and local agencies the property tax was, I think, a surprise to all of us, but, still...

Just my 0.02

Posted by: FT on April 24, 2006 04:34 AM

17. FT: two examples
1. 2000 or 2001 a person misspent over a million dollars of tax payer money. She got a promotion and a pay raise and the decision was to promote her with the understanding she would not touch any budget or be responsible for spending money.
2. Ferry system has yet to pass an audit on money collected. Recorded collected money has not for the past decade matched the money that made it into the bank. Every year hundreds of thousands of dollars supposedly collected are never properly accounted for. No one has been fired over that problem. Or any investigation done into the system. It is just a normal reoccuring audit hit every year.
Overall Unions have been one of the biggest thorns on government efficiency. Look at the auto industry thousands of people get full pay but never work. That means you are paying more for your US built car because we the buyers have to pay for people not to work. Plus the auto industry is dying in this country. WHere is the innovation. Use to be that Japanese cars(60's and early 70's) were considered junk now they are among the best built cars in the world. They are non union jobs. Could that be the reason? I do not know.
But Look at the power of the unions in this state. The people gave teachers a pay raise via initiative. the people did not vote for pay raises for anyother group that is paid by tax payers. Yet when the teachers get a pay raise you hear everyone complain there is no money. The governor gives a pay raise to every group but the teachers without blinking an eye.
You can also look at any group of state government have you heard of anyone being fired in the last decade except when criminal charges are brought. I know that this state is not run by perfect people. I dont know of many jobs that do not have problems and they have to fire people. Look at how many people Microsoft fired in the past year or two because of violating rules. I'd bet Microsoft as fired more people than the State has for problems in the past decade. Businesses hold people accountable. I do not see that happening in the state level or they are being very quiet about it.
I have seen how government union members work. You have a bunch of people that work real hard. But you have a small group of protected employees that do not work at all. My best example it is Christmas Day. I am working on my submarine. We have seen no workers for a couple of days yet on Christmas day the shipyard sent down 10 people to replace a valve (Normal work day it would have been only 2). Could overtime have been the reason?
My feelings on Unions is well known. The democrats are in the Union pockets. And in some cases forcing people to be part of the call banks to support Democrats. You can show it via how Manditory Union membership forced on all government employees signed in law by who a Democrat. Why because that means more money can be funneled from the workers into the Union coffers to provide even more money for Democrats running for office. Sure some selected Republican will get money but overall Tax payer money paying Government personnel being forced to pay UNION DUES is used to finance the next round of elections.
It is appearances more than facts. But when we were running a deficit under the previous govenor. Before announcing not enough money is comming into the coffers he raised the salaries of all non educational government employees. Two week later he announces that they have to be tough on the budget. I wonder why?

Posted by: David Anfinrud on April 24, 2006 06:31 AM

18. I'm all for tolls, if the money goes into the pockets of a private corporation, and if people are allowed to build roads pretty much wherever they can and charge tolls as high or as low as they like. Without that, it's still a government monopoly, and still subject to the corruption and greed that they are subject to today.

Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on April 24, 2006 07:50 AM

19. Jeff B., you say that the "Un-Sound Transit" trains aren't being used, but I just wanted you to know that they are very, very much being used and maybe there aren't a lot of riders of the train getting on at Tacoma, but my husband rides the train (for free thanks to his job providing the pass for him) at Kent to Seattle and the trains are always packed with people.

Posted by: Amber E. Gulmatico on April 24, 2006 08:01 AM

20. I favor tolls for the "mega-projects" like the Viaduct and 520. Everyone is paying for those projects, but why shouldn't the people who use them the most pay a little more? It only makes sense.

Posted by: Palouse on April 24, 2006 08:35 AM

21. The narrows is not the only toll in the state. The ferry's are considered state hi-ways and are in effect a moving bridge. As someone who rides the ferry daily, I have no problem with paying the fare but I have BIG problem with all the rest of you welfare cheats getting to ride bridges for free. Talk about sucking at the goverment tit! And why just bridges? I never cross the mountain passes in the winters. Why should I have to pay for all that snow removal? We dont pay taxes to keep the railroad passes open during the winter, the market does that. We need tolls for the mountain passes, at least in the winter time. Let the people who demand to drive over the pass even when it is a blizzard pay for keeping the road open.

Posted by: Lighthouse on April 24, 2006 08:45 AM

22. A lot of what I said was in jest. There obviously has to be a few cash lanes, but the point is that cash lanes raise the cost of toll collection and increase congestion. I like Bruce's idea of making the toll higher in the cash lanes, I think that is what they are going to do. My prediction though is that the largely affluent Gig Harbor base of drivers coupled with the advance purchase of transponders, etc. is going to setup a situation where there are not enough "transponder only" lanes and there is congestion across all lanes approaching the bridge. Hopefully people will figure it out soon enough.

Bruce, you've obviously never lived in the Bay Area. Go down there and drive the toll bridges for a few days, and then come back and tell me the collectors are not dolts. I got a lot of sneers and having cash yanked out of my hand going through toll booths back in the days before transponders when I lived in the Bay Area. The collectors should all be replaced with machines. It's a waste of money and the waste of a human that could be doing something other than just sitting there. And they have all these mandatory breaks, and other fatigue measures that are BS. And of course they are in Unions. That means they are getting way to much to sit there and collect money.

As for not paying the workers by starting the toll later, well if the traffic has not changed appreciably yet because the project is still ongoing, then why should we pay for the improvements. Maybe it should be only $1 to start as a downpayment, much like you might make to a contractor working on your home. A percentage at the start, and then more when the project is complete. That's normal. As for being paid, I'm sure the workers are being paid. And TNC is a large company, they will get their moeny when the job is done.

And Amber. I'm sure there are some full trains. But I've ridden the sounder from Tacoma when it has been nearly empty. But more to the point, are you aware how heavily subsidized those trains are? The actual cost per passenger to and from Seattle from Tacoma would be a lot closer to $20. Taxpayers are dumping millions into a system that benefits the few like your husband but that is operating in the red both from a capital and expense standpoint. Overall it's a disaster financially, and the trains from Everett are double the disaster. It's nice that your husband is enjoying the trains, but it's on the backs of the rest of the voters of WA that your husband and a very few others are able to do so. It would be far cheaper if Sound Transit shutdown and paid your husband and the other riders to drive their own cars. Right now, for the cost of one year of what it actually costs to get your husband from Tacoma to Seattle, it would be much less expensive to buy your husband a car, and several years worth of gasoline and maintenance. About $60K per year, per passenger to get from Tacoma to Seattle. That's complete BS. That's an example of government gone awry.

Posted by: Jeff B. on April 24, 2006 08:49 AM

23. http://digitalwa.statelib.wa.gov/governor/
1 The real problem is that Boothe Gardner, Michael Lowry, Gary Locke, and Christine Gregoire made the decision NOT to spend the gas tax money on roads and/or mass transit but on other feel good stuff
2 Now they come to us and say they can fix it if you give them more money in the form of tolls
3 This is the equivalent of giving someone $50 for groceries, and they spend it on something else
4 Having grown up in a part of the country where there are toll roads named turnpikes, parkways, thruways; I really do not think that James Vesely, Joanie Balzar, and the Behren family have any idea what toll roads are about
5 Toll roads are limited access (turnpikes are about one exit every 30 miles) and toll bridges pay for the cost of constructing the bridge
6 Here is Washington State toll boothes were used for SR 520 and the Hood Canal Bridge, and were removed when the bonds to finance the bridges were paid off
7 Also most of the toll roads in the Northeast were built prior to the National Defense and Interstate Highway System created by President Eisenhower in 1956
8 Yes Virginia and Denver have new toll roads to the airport, but I really cannot see that happening given the Seattle small town mentality
9 Transponders work to speed people thru toll boothes but I would not let Metro or WashDOT manage it
10 I definitely would not let Ron Sims' train wreck aka Sound Transit manage the project

Posted by: Green Lake Mark on April 24, 2006 08:54 AM

24. Jeff B., Your points are very well taken and I was thinking more about your main point (which was the overall expense for the train system, not necessarily the lack of riders) and completely agree with you especially on the later points you made in responding to my comment. Thanks for informing to the finer details of the train deal. I don't like the government misspending money on things like this and would be more than willing to help vote for other means (better)that benefit more people besides the train if that ever happens.

Posted by: Amber E. Gulmatico on April 24, 2006 09:57 AM

25. These types of tolls are just the next angry hate filled shot at the citizens by its never listening and increasingly hostile government.

The transit option just does not work on a mass scale to reduce congestion yet the next wave of worthless fixes has been tied to real congestion relief we get to vote on I think this fall.

A real government would realize giving billions to 3% of the commuters at the expense of the other 97% would be grounds for no less than termination of all involved yet our now licenseless Transportation Secretary can only sing the praises of the bus!

WSDOT can trumpet road expansion all it wants but all it now does is spend years building storm water ponds, landscaping medians, build sound walls and restrictive bus ramps and we have the same amount of capacity we had before with MORE cars coming. They are the ultimate dirt pushers writing contracts that do nothing nothing nothing to maintain the transportation system functioning at the levels it was designed and built for. That is poor stewardship, fraud and incompetence.

Government is picking specific beneficiaries and payers of tax money and therefore we all see the need to tax someone else instead of sitting back and trying to maintain a 50 MPH system with bus options regardless of your feelings about a car. It maintains a stilted system that hates one group of taxpayers and benefits the others with nearly free transportation.....not a sound form of government or transit.

Posted by: Col. Hogan on April 24, 2006 10:16 AM

26. For whom is the road toll? It's a toll for thee...

Posted by: Reporterward on April 24, 2006 10:35 AM

27. The best place and time to erect a toll bridge would have been at the I-5 bridge across the Columbia River about 30 years ago, when millions of Californians began pouring into Washington. We should have charged them a big hunk for all the infrastructure we have built to transport, educate, and provide medical care and welfare benefits for them.

Washington State was once a great place to live. So good that many came here to escape the traffic, pollution, crime and corrupt government they faced elsewhere. Guess what? You brought it with you! Idaho's beginning to look better every day.

Posted by: Saltherring on April 24, 2006 11:22 AM

28. Slightly off topic, but speaking of toll collectors, I had to chime in. I think that there are many toll collectors who are lacking in integrity and as such, many are flat out thieves. While traveling in Florida and other places, I was taken a few times by toll collectors who gave back less in change. This would happen during rush hours when everyone is in a hurry, and these thieves would simly pocket the difference or say my-bad if caught.

Posted by: C. Oh on April 24, 2006 12:16 PM

29. User taxes are the way to go....except when handled by the democrats. We put in user fees for State Park use and the democrats did two things (1)started charging fees for use of restrooms (2) hired 94 people to collect the tax. Then they complained when they didn't "make enough money" to pay for up-keep! Duh.

The number of "toll takers" needed to do what some have suggested in this blog, should give at least 1,000 or more employment--150 to collect taxes and the rest to fill state jobs "relating to collection".

Oh yes, what has happened to the 94 park user fee employees? Why they have been absorbed into the park department as caretakers! Oh me, Oh my. Whats a conservative to do?

Posted by: Old Sgt on April 24, 2006 03:55 PM

30. Having lived and worked in Chicagoland for about 10 years I can tell you that tolls are a terrible idea.

At one point, the Sun-Times did an article showing that about half the money collected went to employees and their pensions.

The amount used to build/maintain the road was equal to about half that was collected. The half that was collected could've easily been collcted through a gas tax, that was already in place.

Even dashboard responders are pricey. I beleive Oregon was testing them at over $100 per person, with a $45 annual fee.

Thanks but no thanks to any tolls.

Posted by: Brent in Ferndale on April 26, 2006 09:08 AM

31. Only speaking from an eastern Washington perspective, I have to ask WHAT ROADS?! We don't don't have many here.

Posted by: Elaine on April 27, 2006 10:30 PM

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