Reader Peggy Uppiano e-mails "How to start an initiative?":
I live in Ferndale, and the city is planning to install a roundabout at an intersection near the high school. The configuration of the intersection, as it is, is workable. The geographic features of the area make the proposed project seem truly outlandish. I have not talked to any citizens of our community who feel that this project is a good idea, and yet the city seems to be pushing ahead with it.I'm afraid I don't have much advice to offer, but I promised I'd post the question and see if any of our more knowledgeable readers might be able to help. Post your suggestions in the comments or e-mail Peggy: Peggy_Uppiano .AT. msn .DOT. com Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at April 11, 2006 10:32 PM | Email This
I, and a group of other concerned townspeople, want to stop this project from happening. Construction is scheduled for next summer, but the city has already bought some land for this purpose. We want to know what the procedure is for halting this action and for terminating the project. Please advise me, as I am already collecting signatures. There are many people here who are tired of our city taking our tax money to fund projects we don't want!
Find out who wants this project and why. The old saying couldn't be more true, "follow the money." Once you know who is pulling your government's strings, then you can gauge how much political opposition you need to stop what they're doing.
Years ago an airport was proposed for our area. 2,000 people rallied in a community meeting and it was DOA.
Another example was a developer who needed a construction project approved before he could win his permit. Nowhere near enough people got involved when the state and King County crafted a deal to put the whole thing on the taxpayers. With the influence that company wielded, they got $20 million in public funding for the project and they were off the hook.
Politicians and planning commissions only respond to one weapon the public can use. And that is public outrage - in huge numbers - and a concern that ignoring them could lose them their jobs.
The system will rarely give you the relief you need. It's generally designed to only let you think you have influence, but you don't!
Again, the interest behind any land use decision and their level of influence determines what it will take to politically defeat a decision. In too many cases, the interests behind a taxpayer-funded project are too powerful for anything to stop.
Posted by: MJC on April 11, 2006 10:57 PMBut I am curious if this is a general objection to all roundabouts? Or merely that a roundabout in a specific location is unwise?
Posted by: Raw Data on April 11, 2006 11:04 PMBut I am curious if this is a general objection to all roundabouts? Or merely that a roundabout in a specific location is unwise?
Posted by: Raw Data on April 11, 2006 11:04 PMWe had something like that get proposed -- with PLENTY of vocal opposition during the planning stages -- and the city STILL did it. Very similar location (near a high school), too.
Gotta say, though... Many years and many drives through it later... It wasn't such a bad idea after all.
It just takes a LOT of public education to make sure people know to just flow in-through-and-out instead of letting others enter in front of you. The only accidents happen when people aren't paying attention and/or following the simple rules. But when it works... it works. Traffic flows very nicely.
Posted by: (The Real) Mark on April 12, 2006 12:04 AMPortland has one located at NE 39th Ave and NE Glisan Street in the Laurelhurst District. 39th Ave is a four lane major North/South Blvd and Glisan St is a two lane semi major East/West Street. All Saints Catholic Church and School is located at that intersection. I have been driving on it for years and in fact every time I go to Portland I usually go that route.
Posted by: Janet on April 12, 2006 12:27 AMThe intersection I am talking about was revised, I believe, about 12 years ago. At the time, the city tried out several different configurations in rapid succession. The street was torn up for a long stretch. They even began selling shirts with "I Survived Vista Drive" printed on them.
That project pales in comparison to the current proposal. There are MANY people who will be very inconvenienced by the construction of this roundabout. This includes people who have lived there for many years who will see a serious depreciation in the values of their properties (I am not among these).
The intersection in question is near a busy high school - the largest in the county. I believe there are about 1,200 students who attend FHS. It is my opinion that if you were to put this volume of young drivers near any type of intersection, there would be problems at that spot. Furthermore, I am fairly impressed with the amount of time it takes to clear out cars after school lets out. Yes, it does slow down, but it clears out pretty well within a few minutes. The real bottleneck occurs downtown, where there are traffic lights and a two lane bridge leading to the "other" side of town. However, the city does not seem as inclined to address the real traffic issues that bog down the downtown area every day between 2:00 and 6:00. An additional alternate exit/entrance to Ferndale is what this community most sorely needs and is unlikely to get. Another high school is also needed (they have built grade schools like crazy; there is a small alternative high school, but it is unlikely to be expanded), and if it were located on the other side of town it would help to relieve the current downtown congestion.
Instead, the focus and the money is going to an intersection that many of us believe is functional. Last week, the Bellingham Herald ran an article entitled "Accident Prone Intersection Gets Roundabout". This came as a surprise to many of us who attended an earlier town meeting where this project was proposed and (we heard)rejected by the city council. Obviously, the idea was reintroduced and has proceeded.
A number of us also question the statistic quoted in the Herald, which stated that there have been 26 accidents at that intersection in the last 3 years. My family has lived on this street for 20 years, using this intersection multiple times daily, and none of us has witnessed even one accident. Other residents whom I have talked to (including one who lives right on the intersection) feel that this number is a gross exaggeration. I am not denying that accidents may have occurred there, but they have probably not been serious ones, as someone would have seen some evidence of a clean-up in progress! Again, given that primarily beginning drivers use this intersection, I don't know that you can achieve an accident-free arrangement. (And, I would like to know what kind of studies were done on the traffic patterns and accident rates for this site, and where to read them. The Herald is not known for its accuracy!).
Pedestrian issues are a concern. Currently, many students cross Vista walking to and from school. Some parents are concerned that students crossing at a roundabout will be at a higher risk for being hit.
The geography of this intersection is also a problem. The proposed area for the roundabout is at the bottom of a steepish hill. The city planner mentioned that the ground would need to be level in order for a roundabout to be installed (for ease of emergency vehicles). According to what he said back when this was first put forth, the Vista road bed would have to be raised going all the way back to Washington Street, another block down (Washington Street is also where traffic from the Portal Way exit enters town; if the top of Washington is blocked, traffic from Portal Way will be forced through the downtown area). You'd have to see the area in question to imagine what an undertaking this would be!
And - what about those houses along Vista that are currently at road level? How will their property fronts be affected? How about their driveway access to Vista? A person along the bottom end of Malloy told me he would lose his roadside parking and that his driveway would need to be redone. Does the city compensate for this? Did they figure that into their projected costs?
Finally, I know a person who has lived right on the intersection for decades. If the city proceeds as planned, they will remove the house next to his, in order to widen the road. This will make his lot a corner lot, with his house facing into the roundabout. His driveway will be right at one outlet of the roundabout! In spite of the very obvious impact of this project on this homeowner, the city has done absolutely nothing to notify him of this project in the works. I think this is truly disgraceful, and it appears to many of us that the city is trying to act as quickly and quietly as possible to avoid negative reaction.
Posted by: Peggy U on April 12, 2006 02:02 AMCongratulations on your interest in holding your local officials responsible for their actions. I would what Reporterward says, find out the facts, and proceed with actual knowledge. This isn't about "roundabouts" but positive citizen activism. At the very least--if your local leaders are sincere--they will openly embrace your efforts and provide all of the info you need.
Best of luck and please let us know what happens.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on April 12, 2006 05:31 AMWDOT has several proposed on State Highways where they won't allow more stop lights.
I found a web site on the WDOT web page that is 277 or so pages long that discussed 'roundabout' designs. I understand the key is making them big enough.
I go through one on the way home everyday. I sometimes have to wait a minute or so for traffic to slow down in the roundabout to sneak in. This roundabout is at a skewed intersection as compared to a straight cross intersection.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/FASC/EngineeringPublications/Manuals/roundaboutsguide.pdf
This above link is 277 pages of light reading.
I plan to attack it on my next bout of insomnia.
However, from what you describe I can see your points for a 4-way stop there.
Do you have a neighborhood association in your area? Ours has been fairly successful in getting Wal-Mart, Vancouver, and Clark County to agree to a couple of changes to the proposals that came with Wal-Mart's bid to build a supercenter in the neighborhood. (And to think the county rejected a golf course instead...)
They are popping up all over the Kitsap penninsula, especially in Gig Harbor.
I agree that they have to be properly placed, and kudos to Peggy for challenging the almighty government. But when they work, they are actually quite nice. The Europeans do some things right, and in many cases, their roads are very nice. Of course it takes a much more assertive and aware driver to drive in Europe. If you haven't, you should try it sometime, it will make you a better driver when you get back home her to the US.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 12, 2006 08:38 AMRoundabouts were designed into the newly developed Gig Harbor North area several years ago....
In concept, they are a great alternative to signaled intersections...
In practice, they are a mess...
Why? Because these are not "European Style" roundabouts, with large diamaters that allow vehicles to enter and leave with minimal slowing...
Rather, our "round-abouts" are more like four-way intersection with the corners cut off and the stop-signs removed... their small diameter means that the intersecting streets are so close together that drivers often need to come to a complete stop before entering, slow down drastically to negotiate the circle, and large vehilces like busses and tractor-trailers have even been known to get stuck...
Round-abouts in and of themselves are not a bad idea... when properly designed, they are an awesome improvement to traffic flow...
Just be sure to ask the "experts" designing your system how their design criteria were arrived at. If they say that the diamater was chosen because "that's all the room we have available" like our did, then they are clueless...
Posted by: XXX on April 12, 2006 09:32 AMThe intersection in question is absolutely horrible. It was bad in the 70's and 80's. and it's not any better today.
It's about time they fixed this calamity of an intersection.
There are lots of things to be disgruntled about with Ferndale's city council. (Allowing the old growth cedars to be removed from Pioneer Park, for starters)
This Roundabout will greatly improve traffic in Ferndale.
Posted by: Brent from Ferndale on April 12, 2006 09:42 AMThe intersection in question is absolutely horrible. It was bad in the 70's and 80's. and it's not any better today.
It's about time they fixed this calamity of an intersection.
There are lots of things to be disgruntled about with Ferndale's city council. (Allowing the old growth cedars to be removed from Pioneer Park, for starters)
This Roundabout will greatly improve traffic in Ferndale.
Posted by: Brent from Ferndale on April 12, 2006 09:42 AMI don't know what the traffic flow is like in Ferndale situation, but if Lk Sammamish Way is any indication, chances are that the traffic will become horrendously bad with high school kids and other non-high school related traffic. Then, DOT and city gov't will spend more money to make it worse.
Posted by: C. Oh on April 12, 2006 09:52 AMAs to the intersection, what problems have you had? Other people I have talked to don't seem to have an issue with it. Do you live up Vista, Malloy or Ferndale Terrace? What time of day do you usually use this intersection? I am curious, because this is the information I lack. What I see is a serious expense and inconvenience for something that may not improve the situation much. My own preference would be for them to alleviate some of the volume from the high school and to put real effort into creating another access to Ferndale.
Have you attended the meetings regarding this project? If so, please fill me in on the details I am missing, in case there is an overwhelming argument for this project. I am not interested in creating a problem if this truly is the best solution! It just seems as if this thing came out of nowhere, and many people I have talked to feel that their voices have not been heard on this issue. Thanks!
Posted by: Peggy U on April 12, 2006 10:10 AMFirst, they are not ROUND-A-BOUTS; they are “Traffic Calming Devices.”
In Tacoma and elsewhere, this is all the “RAGE” among the new age transportation “GUIRO’S.” “It’s so European.” We had one installed in N.E. Tacoma over the objection of the neighborhood. We got over 1600 signatures to stop the project but they were ignored by the “we know what’s best for you crowed” and the “CIRCUS CIRCLE” was built.
Since the “TRAFFIC CALMING DEVICE “has been in, there is not a day that goes by when there is not an accident, someone running into the middle of the structure or someone’s front yard!!!
The real reason that politicians love these “TRAFFIC CALMING DEVICES” is that they have an unfettered place to put all of their campaign signs!!!
You are right on...it's not the round-a-bout that is the problem it's where you put them.
They need be have a large enough diamater to work. You can not just cookie cutter them in!!!
If a four way stop or stop light then put them in!!!
Posted by: Pacific Grove Phlash on April 12, 2006 10:38 AMI noticed that, since they put in the one in my neighborhood, it has provided the kids a new sport - see how fast you can blaze through without tearing out your suspension!
It appears to be great fun, and I'm sure it makes the local Shucks Auto Supply guys real happy as well ;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 12, 2006 11:25 AMMaybe they should put ROCK GARDENS with large boulders in the center of all “TRAFFIC CALMING DEVICES”
Olympia 4th Ave Bridge and connecting streets have examples of both. They are on a hill, multiple intersections, two round-a-bouts in a row and calming devices on nearby side streets. It all works.
In any case, I'd favor doing more research before condemning without all the facts.
Posted by: jabber on April 12, 2006 05:10 PMI found a couple of links that might be of some help to you. This is a fairly good detail map of the Glisan Street Circle in Portland and Goggle Earth has a good detail aerial view.
http://www.portlandmaps.com/parse_results.cfm?action_override=&query=NE+39th+ave+and+Glisan ---- Portland Maps and click on the first link.
http://www.portlandmaps.com/detail.cfm?action=explorer&intersection_id=49760&x=7657984.526&y=685091.602&site_name=NE%2039TH%20AVE%20and%20NE%20GLISAN%20ST&city=PORTLAND&ResultCount=4 ---- NE Glisan St and NE 39th Ave, Laurelhurst District - Portland, Oregon NOTE: Ex-long URL
Using the above link, click on Google Earth and type in - NE 39th St and NE Glisan St -. Google Earth has a good detailed map of the Glisan Street Circle. The large buildings starting from the left is All Saints Catholic Church, the Rectory and the large rectangle shaped building is All Saints Catholic School. 39th Ave is a very buzy major 4 lane blvd and is only a few blocks from I-84. The circle was probably built in the early 1900's. All the home in the area are well kept and were built in the early 1900's.
The grass area in the circle is not a play ground and I don't recall seeing any children playing there, however from time to time I have seen Adults with their dogs playing frisbee and bicyclist laying/resting on the grass.
You mentioned the city purchased some extra property. If your city could build one like the one in Portland there should not be any problems. If your city builds a circle like the one on Bainbridge Island, based on your description of the area, then you probably will have problems. All they did on BBI was rounded the curves and you have to come to almost a complete stop. It use to be a four way stop with lots of people making left turns. Traffic was always bad at that intersection and especially around 4 - 6 PM because of the ferry traffic. It did however stop the kids from walking diagonally across that intersection. IMO, it seemed like the kids had never been taught how to cross a street.
IMO, you should gather lots of maps and photos of both good and bad examples. I do have some photos of the Glisan Street Circle that I can mail to you. I don't need them any more. E-mail me privately your home address.
Janet
Janet, thanks, I will email you!
--Peggy
Posted by: Peggy U on April 12, 2006 05:52 PMIn my neighborhood, we have on of those trafiic calming device type roundabouts. The streets are oversized and level in all directions, so all the county did was place a couple of what looks like curved concrete dividers in the center. Fire engines. can get through a cut through with a curb in the middle, so that regular cars don't just dart through there.
Another working roundabout is at Rosemont and Stafford Rds in Clackamas Co, OR, between Lake Oswego and West Linn. This one was only recently put in and has reduced traffic backups on Rosemont immensely. Rosemont had a stop sign and Stafford was a through street before that, with a hill on the south side.
You mentioned that the circle was decided on because of the school buses. In my life I have worked as a substitute school bus driver, and the one as in my neighborhood would be an absoulte pain to get through, while the one in Clackamas Co. would be ok. I would still prefer a 4-way stop over a roundabout, even though traffic does not clear quite as quickly. I assume this is a neighborhood school, which would mean that traffic will be backed up ANYWAY because of the school bus stops, so it does not make a whole lot of sense.
Not sure how to link the google earth view, but email me if you want the pictures.
Posted by: Andy SW on April 13, 2006 06:47 AMIn my neighborhood, we have on of those trafiic calming device type roundabouts. The streets are oversized and level in all directions, so all the county did was place a couple of what looks like curved concrete dividers in the center. Fire engines. can get through a cut through with a curb in the middle, so that regular cars don't just dart through there.
Another working roundabout is at Rosemont and Stafford Rds in Clackamas Co, OR, between Lake Oswego and West Linn. This one was only recently put in and has reduced traffic backups on Rosemont immensely. Rosemont had a stop sign and Stafford was a through street before that, with a hill on the south side.
You mentioned that the circle was decided on because of the school buses. In my life I have worked as a substitute school bus driver, and the one as in my neighborhood would be an absoulte pain to get through, while the one in Clackamas Co. would be ok. I would still prefer a 4-way stop over a roundabout, even though traffic does not clear quite as quickly. I assume this is a neighborhood school, which would mean that traffic will be backed up ANYWAY because of the school bus stops, so it does not make a whole lot of sense.
Not sure how to link the google earth view, but email me if you want the pictures.
Posted by: Andy SW on April 13, 2006 06:47 AMIn my neighborhood, we have on of those trafiic calming device type roundabouts. The streets are oversized and level in all directions, so all the county did was place a couple of what looks like curved concrete dividers in the center. Fire engines. can get through a cut through with a curb in the middle, so that regular cars don't just dart through there.
Another working roundabout is at Rosemont and Stafford Rds in Clackamas Co, OR, between Lake Oswego and West Linn. This one was only recently put in and has reduced traffic backups on Rosemont immensely. Rosemont had a stop sign and Stafford was a through street before that, with a hill on the south side.
You mentioned that the circle was decided on because of the school buses. In my life I have worked as a substitute school bus driver, and the one as in my neighborhood would be an absoulte pain to get through, while the one in Clackamas Co. would be ok. I would still prefer a 4-way stop over a roundabout, even though traffic does not clear quite as quickly. I assume this is a neighborhood school, which would mean that traffic will be backed up ANYWAY because of the school bus stops, so it does not make a whole lot of sense.
Not sure how to link the google earth view, but email me if you want the pictures.
Posted by: Andy SW on April 13, 2006 06:47 AM