As part of my preparation for my own post on the demonstrations yesterday in Seattle, I have been studying the accounts in the Seattle PI and the Seattle Times. And I must say that our two Seattle newspapers have left me more puzzled than before.
Consider, for example, the question in the title of this post. Until yesterday, these demonstrations were marked, all around the country, by a preponderance of Mexican flags. But yesterday here in Seattle, and all around the country, most of the flags — as far as I can tell — were American. Now it is easy enough to guess why the switch was made, but the PI and the Times don't tell us who decided there should be a switch. Nor do they seem interested in the sincerity of the switch. If a Husky fan suddenly showed up with a Cougar bumper sticker on his car, most of us would expect an explanation. But our Seattle newspapers pass by a far larger (apparent) change in allegiance without mention.
And that's not all they leave out. Both papers tell us that the protest was part of a "National Day of Action for Immigrant Justice", but neither tells us who organized the day. I have seen reports — which I have yet to check — that the demonstrations were organized by a far left group. If that's true, then the flag switch takes on a certain irony. (The PI is slightly better than the Times on this question; at the end of their article, they list several demonstrators with their organizations: Highline High School, Latino Liberation Movement, Youth Against War and Racism, and Socialist Alternative and Youth Against War and Racism. I don't know about Highline High School, but the other organizations don't sound like the places one would expect to find flagwaving American patriots.)
The biggest omission in the two articles is surprising. Ordinarily, demonstrations have a specific objective, or objectives. But neither the PI nor the Times tells us what the demonstrators want, except in the vaguest terms. Do they want open borders? Amnesty? Would the demonstrators be willing to accept the set of compromises that President Bush has proposed? Would any of them be interested in a guest worker program? All of those strike me as interesting, perhaps even fundamental, questions. But they did not interest Lornett Turnbull of the Seattle Times, or Lisa Stiffler and Hector Castro of the Seattle PI.
(Thanks to those who have sent me pictures of the demonstration. I would also be interested in hearing accounts that would shed some light on the questions I mentioned above.
For a global perspective on this issue, you may want to look at this post. The United States currently accepts almost forty percent of all the immigrants in the entire world.
For a very local perspective, you may want to think about the sticker I saw as I was coming back from lunch: "Colorado Native". As I mentioned in a comment to this post, many Americans don't even like internal immigrants, people who come from other states. And that, I am sure, was the point of that "Colorado Native" sticker. (For what it's worth, the car also had a KEXP sticker.) I have never considered getting a "Washington Native" sticker for my own car, but I can understand the feelings of those who do have them, and even sympathize with them, a little.)
Posted by Jim Miller at April 11, 2006 01:55 PM | Email ThisMost of the Seattle protests against the war have had close ties to the far-far-left.
I think this was simply an example of the anti-war left trying to "freep" an immigration rally. I'd be happy to look at evidence to the contrary...
Posted by: Patrick on April 11, 2006 02:15 PMPigs will be flying six-packs of cold Heineken into Hell before that happens!
Posted by: Libertarian on April 11, 2006 02:15 PMsome of the organizers were:
El Comite Pro-Amnistia General y Justici Social, CASA Latina, LELO, Tenants Union of WA State, Centro de la Raza, Churches of St. Mary's, SEIU Local 6, Church Council of Greater Seattle, Hate Free Zone, NWFCO, NWIRP, CAGJ, Citizen Action of WA, Centro Latino de Tacoma, M.E.Ch.A-SVCC, M.E.Ch.A-UW, M.E.Ch.A-TESC, Cascade People's Center, WA State Jobs with Justice, Arab American Community Coalition, & many, many more....
A.N.S.W.E.R. was involved heavily in New York passing out American flags, I don't know about elsewhere.
Posted by: SouthernRoots on April 11, 2006 02:19 PMhttp://www.texasrainmaker.com/
scroll down to
"Monday is National Cut-Your-Own-Lawn Day"
April 7th, 2006
(Sorry, I still can't post direct links in comments. :)
Posted by: cc on April 11, 2006 02:20 PMThe obvious intent in every protest is to try and recruit mindshare and sympathy for voting purposes. The Democratic party and especially people like HIllary Clinton are sympathetic to Marxism and Socialism, and the Marxists know there best path to a more Statist and Marxist America is through the Democrats. They view all of these protests as "Get Out The Vote" rallies.
What lessens my concern is the same thing that always lessens my concern. Ignorance and apathy. Rock The Vote is an abysmal failure, etc. Any time you have to bus a bunch of people to a protest, you are on the wrong track. They might be able to temporarily convince these folks to march, but ultimiately America is about rational self interest. We always do what's best for ourselves. And even illegal immigrants will make voting decisions, etc. in their own best interest. Despite attempts at indoctrination, more people will always find that good old fashioned capitalism, hard work and the American way is the best path to prosperity.
In summary, when you see the Che flags flying, you can bet, the protest in just another socialist bonanza. The real immigrants, illegal and legal, were at their jobs working hard as they always do.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 11, 2006 02:25 PMYesterday on Hannity he interviewed a legal immigrant who went through the hoops. He couldn't get the guy to admit there was such a thing as "illegal" immigrants. They were people who wanted to work and live in the US, not "illegals". The guy sounded Hispanic.
Today on Fox TV, Pat Shroeder, the former well-spoken Congresswoman from Colorado, talked about the roots of the immigrants. Four hundred years of roots and assimilation. I didn't catch the rest of it but she seemed to be making excuses.
Posted by: swatter on April 11, 2006 02:26 PMlook, its not that complicated. the protestors heard the criticism of a couple of weeks ago regarding the preponderance of non-american flags. they got the message and acted accordingly, either individually or through the group with whom they showed up.
Posted by: dinesh on April 11, 2006 02:42 PMwww.mexica-movement.org
Posted by: Skylar Vandergrift on April 11, 2006 02:42 PMI didn't see any Aztlan flags flying either.
Two separate issues: border security and illegal immigrant processing. You need the first for the second to work.
Posted by: Joe W on April 11, 2006 02:53 PMIn 2004, John Kerry campaigned from church to church, sometimes making three services in a single Sunday. As far as I know, he has not been back to church since the campaign. And his income tax returns showed that he had not given any significant amount of money to the Catholic church for years, though he claims to still belong to it.
It is reasonable to doubt the strength of Kerry's religious beliefs. And it is reasonable to doubt the patriotism of those who wave a Mexican flag one week and an American flag the next. Especially when waving the second has such great poltical advantages.
(BTW, Kerry was not wearing an American flag pin on Sunday's Tim Russert show, though he had worn one regularly during the 2004 campaign.)
Posted by: Jim Miller on April 11, 2006 02:54 PM
"Who organized the protests. Specifically, I do not know, but generally, it's quite obvious. American hating Marxists. If you looks at pictures on the web of just about every left leaning protest you can find or think of in the past year, the constant among them all, from Tookie Williams to yesterday are American Marxist and Socialist organizations."
Jeff:
I revel in your bedrock, boneheaded stupidity. Latinos and Latinos alone are organizing these marches. They have their own network, their own talk radio, which *you* don't understand, and their own organizers.
They would no more pay any attention to ANSWER, Marxists, Socialists, and that lot than they would pay it to you, Stefan, and Amused by Cynical Soup.
They don't need "the left." They don't want "the left." They outnumber those wackaloons by a thousand to one. ANSWER and the Che-flag wavers are just along for the ride, trolling desperately for supporters who they will never get.
But please, please keep preaching your line, and we will capitalize on it with thousands of new Latino Democrats -- all US citizens -- and you and your lot will get very, very few of those votes. iQue dulce sera la veganza!
Posted by: ivan on April 11, 2006 03:09 PMWith people like you and the Democrats, the problem will never be solved.
Posted by: swatter on April 11, 2006 03:39 PMLemme help you out there, Ivan. Rival is the word you're looking for.
And you're too quick to dismiss the A.N.S.W.E.R. crowd. Yes, the latino network helped with the organization ... and the other far-left groups were right there with them. Care to explain why SEIU and ASFCME were so involved?
Posted by: jimg on April 11, 2006 03:51 PMswatter: you must be choking on your own bile right now!
republicans and democrats are the same in the respect that all they care about is votes.
when tom delay is sitting in prison, he'll wonder what happened to that PERMANENT REPUBLICAN MAJORITY he tried to buy. how can you reconcile your post with the stated goal summarized in those 3 words?
please....
Posted by: dinesh on April 11, 2006 03:56 PMAre every single one of these organizations comprosed of "Latino and Latinos alone"?
El Comite Pro-Amnistia General y Justici Social, CASA Latina, LELO, Tenants Union of WA State, Centro de la Raza, Churches of St. Mary's, SEIU Local 6, Church Council of Greater Seattle, Hate Free Zone, NWFCO, NWIRP, CAGJ, Citizen Action of WA, Centro Latino de Tacoma, M.E.Ch.A-SVCC, M.E.Ch.A-UW, M.E.Ch.A-TESC, Cascade People's Center, WA State Jobs with Justice, Arab American Community Coalition, & many, many more....
Are you implying that there are no Socialist or Marxist Latinos - at least none in this country?
Who's revenge do you speak of? Theirs or yours? Are you drooling thinking of the power you and the Democrats could obtain through 12 million new voters?
Or is it because you are really a caring and sensitive soul?
Unlike you, SEIU and AFSCME represent working people.
Posted by: ivan on April 11, 2006 04:07 PM"Lord, I appologize for that...that ain't right...and be with the starvin' pygmies in New Guinea. Amen!"
Posted by: Larry the Cable Guy on April 11, 2006 04:53 PMBut all joking (well half joking) aside, I really see immigration in and of itself an outdated concept. Technology makes it too easy for the immigrant to stay connected to their homeland.
The days of the “American Wake” have long passed. For those of you who don't know what an "American Wake" was, it was a party that the Irish would throw for people going to America back before there was cable television international plane flights, telephones, and the internet.
They called it a "wake" because for the people staying behind they knew they would never see the people going to America ever again. For the people staying behind it would be just like if the people going to America had died.
Back then the choice of going to America meant that they would forever leave friends and family behind. With such a sacrifice and with the fact that there was no going back, they had to assimilate to this new land. They had to work to become Americans.
But today it is too easy due to technology to have one foot in both countries and visit "home" frequently. That leads to divided loyalties and a lack of desire to assimilate into American culture.
There is no one living who was directly impacted by the conquistadors of the 15-1700s. The only people that have any right to citizenship in the US are those who are born here. And as many have pointed out, it's highly suspect when a Mexican woman crosses the border into the US to have a baby on our soil, soley for the citizenship benefits it will bring her child.
As for who organized the protests. Ivan, you are truly naive. Do your homework. The largest organizers of the protests were the Spanish Language Media and SEIU. The current president of SEIU is Andrew Stern. Do a little reading on Stern. You will find that he is a socialist, and that SEIU is about as far left as it gets for unions. The largest Spanish Language media company in the US is Univision. Many Spanish Radio broadcast the details and helped get out the word about the protests, but they were not the central orgnizers of the protests. Go check out CCC, The Working Families Part, ACORN, National Council of La Raza, A.N.S.W.E.R. and AFSC. You are going to find that the leadership of all these orgranizations have Socialist connections and / or are admitted socialists.
The key question to ask yourself is not who came out and marched, but who provided the philosophical and intellectual grounds for starting these rallies. And which organizations provided support and funding. Hint, Soros was right in there with money too.
Lastly, go back and read my comments in other posts. I don't think you really understand the imigration issue. It's a lot more complex than most are willing to admit which explains the gridlock on the issue in Congress. I'm not calling for a mass deportation, I believe immigrants are the life blood of this country, and I'd take 100 hard working Latinos a day in exchange for the chance to deport one Seattle Marxist. But we do have a large problem. Our borders are essentially open in a time when security is a big issue. There are a lof of people living in the United States in a limbo that has been created by look-the-other way policy by several administrations over 30 years. And there are a lot of people living here and using services that are not paying into our system of taxation. For the most part though, immigrants are not the problem. The problem is that Americans have created this problem, while also creating a continually prosperous country that is a beacon and an attraction to many around the world.
But a much bigger problem in this country is the left elite in academia, politics and the media and their attempts to sell socialism, multiculturalism, statism and many other forms of collectivism that ultimately have roots in Marxism.
Posted by: Jeff B. on April 11, 2006 05:31 PM"But a much bigger problem in this country is the left elite in academia, politics and the media and their attempts to sell socialism, multiculturalism, statism and many other forms of collectivism that ultimately have roots in Marxism."
You know, that's so ridiculous I can't believe you're serious.
Marxism is toast and it isn't coming back. And I don't know what "left elite" in politics you are talking about. Last I checked, Bush has been president since 2001, he has had a majority in the House and in the Senate, has named his political cronies to every conceivable Executive Branch position, and has nominated and had confirmed two Supreme Court justices. All the political "elite" in this country is on your side.
"Left elite in the media?" Now who the heck might that be? Every one of the dwindling media corporations in this country is solely in the GOP's pocket. NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, Sinclair, you name it. The NY Times and the Washington Post leftist? Ha ha! They are whoring for Bush every chance they get.
Look around you, Jeff. Conservatism is tanking in every poll. You lot can't govern and can't provide anything for anybody -- except the top .01 percent.
There's your elite, my friend -- the financial and corporate elite. They did pretty well themselves in the 1950s and 1960s when the top income tax bracket was 90 percent, didn't they? Now that they have gotten every tax cut in the books, you're still whining about socialism? We didn't go Communist then and we won't now -- or ever.
So come out from under your bed. The big bad boogeyman isn't there.
Posted by: ivan on April 11, 2006 05:54 PMIn reality,. many of those marching yesterday have no desire to assimilate into our culture. They are here for the money to send back home. If the opportunity for money or deterrents to their illegality were enforced, fewer of the Mexican citizens would be here. Bottom line: Employers will continue to hire them and pay them lower wages as long as they believe they can get away with it.
Posted by: KS on April 11, 2006 07:26 PMAt the same time, some of the Republican leadership - maybe Karl Rove is also wanting illegal amnesty for more votes and also to help out the corporations. Afraid to say it, but globalism is apparent in both parties. In both cases, I would say they are basically thumbing their noses at the people they represent. There is a middle ground that enforces existing laws, secures the borders and at the same time does not round all of the illegals up and ship them to their home - that won't back & is not practical. National ID cards and allowing local police to ask for the national ID card when warranted is part of a viable plan to save this country from a globalist anarchy. People need to contact their local politicians about this, otherwise political will to do anything constructive will not be there - the time is right/its an election year !
Posted by: KS on April 11, 2006 07:35 PMThe public school system has been led by people who would define themselves as liberal. Would you say the money spent on education in the past 40 or so years has been spent wisely? Test scores are flat at best, and discipline is awful.
How about welfare and social spending? How many trillions have been spent on anti-poverty programs that haven't done anything to reduce poverty? How many people have been conditioned to look to the government for everything?
What about the left and defense and foreign policy? How well did Carter do with Iran? How well did Clinton do to prevent North Korea from going nuclear? He gave them nuclear plants at Carter's suggestion. What did Clinton do to protect the nation from terrorism? What did he do to stop Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden over than fire a couple of cruise missiles? Remember troops being dragged down the street in Somalia when Clinton's defense secretary wouldn't adequately supply the troops? How about the Clinton reaction to the USS Cole or African embassy bombings?
True, Bush and Co. have made mistakes. But consider this: The American people saw what your lib pals had to offer in 2000 and 2004. They rejected your side both times. Too many people distrust liberals and Democrats to govern and defend this nation. We've seen what your side did before.
Posted by: mo on April 11, 2006 07:50 PMiban has been practicing he/she/it's copy/paste skills!
iban, you have to be the most moronic mofo I've seen in years! You state the most profoundly simple-minded shiite with a straight face (or at least as straight as a blimpy bass turd as you can manage).
You want Jeff to "come out from under the bed" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean!), I would prefer that you ooze back under your rock....
Posted by: alphabet soup on April 11, 2006 07:50 PMSure, the left can offer government-funded goodies like health care, but isn't there a chance that many of the arrivals from Mexico could get turned off by lib favorite policies/proposals such as abortion on demand and gay marriage? I'll wager that a number of the illegal immigrants have a Catholic background, and last I checked, the Catholic Church opposed abortion and gay marriage.
Same with African-Americans: many don't favor the Dem positions on abortion, gay marriage and school vouchers, which might just pose a problem for the Dems trying to lock up those votes for future elections. If the GOP can turn those issues into wedge issues, watch the Dem vote go down among Hispanics and African Americans.
Libs, be careful what you wish for...
Posted by: MES on April 11, 2006 08:44 PMNavarette reluctantly, but fully and honestly, praises Senate Republicans for trying to get a "compromise immigration" bill. He condemns the Democrats for scuttling the whole thing behind the scenes.
Of course, if you see the "compromise" bill as foolishly granting amnesty to the criminal behavior of illegal aliens while doing nothing to secure the borders, you may take a slightly different view from Navarette (and from most of the contributors to this blog) about who should be praised and who should be criticized.
Looks to me like the Senate Democrats are starting to feel the heat from their constituents -- the ones that actually vote legally. Meanwhile, the Senate Republicans are apparently trying to curry favor with the new Hispanic majority we'll see in a few decades. Problem is, if the Republicans don't smarten up about this, their party won't last long enough to benefit from all the currying. Very ironic. Very sad.
Whether you like it or not, President Bush is the chief representative of the Republicans to the voting public. What he does, or does not do, is what people expect from future Republican candidates, should they manage get into office. And so it works out like this: The public wants to close the border before they hear more prattle about guest workers. Mr. Bush has the power and responsibility to do just that. He doesn't. Republican party hacks may not see the problem with this, but most of the rest of us do.
Posted by: Boonie on April 11, 2006 10:28 PMAccess to abortion and gay marriage will prove to be more important to Latino voters, they say. Wow! Talk about faith-based political analysis.
Boonie, on the other hand, sees the writing on the wall. You wingnuts thought bashing immigrants would be a real winning issue for you, but April Fool! The immigrants are putting the boots on the ground, hundreds of thousands of them.
You think that's going to translate into votes for the party of George Bush, Tom Tancredo, James Sensenbrenner, Dave Reichert, and the Minutemen? Heck, all we have to do is let them read Sound Politics, Free Republic, and Little Green Sh*tballs. That should tell them who their friends are.
Here's another question for you. Did you know that noncitizens, even undocumented noncitizens, can fight in the U.S. Armed Services? Did you know that some of them have died in action for the United States of America in Iraq?
I guess that's OK with some of you, right? They love the United States enough to risk life and limb, and maybe die for you and me. They can go be cannon fodder, that's fine. Only you don't want their kids off the street, in school, learning English, which you insist they must.
But they'll vote Republican? Claro que no. They'll turn Republicans out of office at every level of government, sooner or later, and you will have brought it all on yourselves.
And they will join unions. Oh, yeah, big time!
Posted by: ivan on April 11, 2006 11:50 PMhttp://www.cccaction.org/cccaction/april_10_local_events.html
They put up a pretty impressive "last minute" website for poor illegal immigrants....NOT!
The rallies were funded by socialist and communist organizations - ultimately belonging to the World Workers Party...
It is, I think, contemptible, to casually throw around charges of racism, or bias. I hope that you will have the decency to apologize for the slur.
Posted by: Jim Miller on April 12, 2006 07:05 AMThe Hispanic people I know are hardworking, warm and generous. Most want nothing but an opportunity, something they didn't get in their home countries. Those here legally, for the most part, are accepted as contributors to the American dream. Those who are not here legally should support the president's plan to allow them work permits and opportunity to legitimize their presence here. Those who wave Mexican flags and talk openly about "taking back" portions of the American southwest should get out before the American demand they be rounded up and kicked out.
Aside that, where do your loyalties reside, Jose? Are you an American or a Mexican? America needs Americans, we can do without foreigners looking out for foreign interests.
Posted by: Saltherring on April 12, 2006 07:31 AMIvan -
_ guess that's OK with some of you, right? They love the United States enough to risk life and limb, and maybe die for you and me. They can go be cannon fodder, that's fine. Only you don't want their kids off the street, in school, learning English, which you insist they must.
_
Well, yes, I did know that. See, I actually served in the armed forces and met these people. At least those fine people have chosen to do something to contribute to the country as they worked towards citizenship. That's more than I can say about far too many American citizens, let alone illegal aliens (darn, I used that word again). And oh wait! These non-citizens are actually following a LEGAL PROCESS to gain citizenship through their service. Not that I expect any sort of facts that to bother you in your spewing.
Do I want them in my schools? Absolutely. One of those children could very well be the next Jonas Saulk. But let’s examine that carefully. What will you do when 40% of your school population comes from families that are NOT PAYING TAXES that support the schools? Suddenly we need to build more schools to support the booming increase in students....and yet who exactly is paying the levies for these schools? Think I'm exaggerating? Spend some time in AZ, or SoCal. There are many burdens placed on social services, but that ones the easiest to trace the cause and effects.
Jose,
Cry me a river. My relatives emigrated here (legally), lived in substandard housing, worked and toiled in a day where government had no labor laws or minimum wage, suffered, sometimes starved, and frequently watched their children die. I am here with the opportunities I have today because of their unrelenting effort. So you're saying everybody that wants to cross the border illegally (there's that evil word again) should get a free pass? I'll pay $8.00 a head for lettuce if that's the case. And let's talk about that head of lettuce. Big Agribusiness is not going to change anything as long as the tap of super cheap labor continues. They said grapes could never be harvested except by hand, so they had to have a work force that they weren't required to pay even minimum wage to (while working them like dogs) to remain 'competitive'. When the laws were rammed through anyways that would force them to actually pay and treat their workers something closer to minimum wage, lo and behold somebody actually invented a machine that could mechanize the process of grape harvesting. Do you think you're doing any of those workers in the lettuce fields any favors by keeping the flow if illegal (doh!) labor flowing freely. What a nice man you are. If you decide to try to pop the race card on me, you'd better think long and hard. I was born in Phoenix AZ, grew up, went to school with, am friends with, dated, worked with Hispanic people all my life, both legal and illegal. I have seen the best and the worst to be had from both groups first hand.
If it seems odd that I'm hammering on the 'I' word, it's because I'm finding the amount of weaseling in the MSM and government to be truly appalling. If we're not willing to be clear about this issue from the beginning then any conversation we're having about it is just lying to ourselves.
As long as the Libs and Dems keep offering no policies but "We hate Bush, We hate the military etc." and lionizing such paragons of virtue like Baghdad Jim, Al Sharpton, Cynthia McKinney, the Clintons, as well as dullards and dimbulbs like Michael Moore, Carter, Gore, Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Edwards and Dean, they will never truly prosper. Relying on George Soros, Moveon.org, the ACLU, the NEA, NOW and company will not make the Democratic Party or this nation better, it will just subjagate it to far-left loons.
We've already seen how well you on the left can waste money and run down this nation. We don't want more of your failed ideas.
Posted by: mo on April 12, 2006 10:26 AMreminds me of a p.j. o'rourke line regarding overpopulation: "just enough of me, too much of you."
"I am descended (as are thousands of other Americans) from an illegal immigrant named Moses Cleaveland. According to the family history, his activities on behalf of Mr. Cromwell made him unpopular with the authorities and he could not get permission to come to America. He stowed away on a ship. Moses Jr, who spelled his name slightly differently, founded the city of Cleveland, OH. Another one of his descendants, Grover Cleveland, was President of the United States. I have a more recent ancestor that was forced into Napoleon's army. He escaped illegally to America, and avoided dying like his friends in the invasion of Russia. A more upright and law-abiding family than the one he started could not be found.
Most of the illustrious Puritan ministers could not get permission to come. They bought tickets in other people's names, traveled supposedly separately from their families, often with disguises. George Bush himself is descended from at least one of these illegal immigrants, as are most people with colonial New England ancestry.
Before we mistreat illegal aliens, we need to look in the mirror."
Are illegal immigrants illegal people? Of course not, but by their ACTIONS they have immigrated illegally.
Is that the only thing they have done illegally? Probably not.
1. Crossing the border illegally.
2. Using forged documents (driver license, birth certificate, social security cards, green cards)
3. Lying on job applications as to immigration status. Would this include W-4 forms?
4. Using forged documents for housing, banking. etc.
5. Lying on forms to register to vote.
6. Voting illegally.
Not all who cross the border illegally does all of these items and some do even more and worse. My point is that the illegal border crossing is only the first illegal ACTION, normally followed by a few more. Why should these activities, if not caught or unpunished for a long period of time, move them ahead of those that have gone through the process?
I used the word "border" a lot. I do not believe that borders are only "arbitrary lines drawn on a map". If I were to believe it, why would I stop at national borders? Does that then make state borders arbitrary? Could I live in California, but say I live in Washington to avoid income taxes?
What about county or city borders? What about legislative or precinct boundaries? What about those pesky signs that say "No Trespassing" or "Authorized Personnel Only"?
Oh, this is different? How so? How is a national border LESS important than a "No Trespassing" sign in a nature park?
Nothing we do (or don't do, like enforce current immigration laws) should encourage more illegal immigration.
We should take steps to stop illegal border crossings. We should also take steps to make legal border crossings easier to achieve, dependent on the purpose of the crossing.
We need to make sure that we can keep track of all the temporary visitors as well. Where are they? When does their visa expire? Do we notify them when their visas are due? Do we follow up, or are they allowed to "disappear"?
We should enforce our laws. If we do not like those laws - work with your representatives to change them - don't ignore them. If your representatives don't listen vote them out, or at least try.
Jose – if you’re already a U.S. citizen or came here legally – pax. If you didn’t come here through legal channels, then perhaps you can explain what makes you more special and deserving over someone trying to come here legally.
If you come here illegally...your a criminal, and have no place here.
Its not a hard concept to follow, and yet we have thousands of fools who can't grasp a simple concept like the one above.
Posted by: Ray on April 12, 2006 11:18 AMYou are just flat wrong. Go search the web for the recording of the A.N.S.W.E.R. meeting made by Joe Malchow and others. You'll hear Brian Becker, leader of ANSWER and avowed socialist frame everything in terms of a class struggle and advocate for using immigration, and specifically Monday's marches and protests as a means of highlighting and forming a class struggle between immigrants and citizens.
If you are not familiar with the Communist Manifesto by Marx. Go read that too, and then compare it to much of the rhetoric from socialists like Brian Becker, and less outed socialists like Hillary Clinton. Framing society as a class struggle is the central thesis of the Communist Manifesto and of Marx's philosophy. And that's why it's particulalry insidious and destructive of someone like Brian Becker to abuse the immigrant problem for purposes of advancing Marxism.
This is not a boogeyman thing. This is a vocal yet organized minority in this country that flatly disagree with capitalism and freedom and most of the tenets on which this country was founded. These people want to fundamentally change America, but in non-violent way. They are real, and you can read about them any and every day. They are the primary force behind many of the marches be they for gay rights, environmentalism, immigration, etc. Just pick a victim class and see how that class views itself as oppressed and in need of a struggle against the majority.
This is wrong, and frankly un-American. But before you spout off, read and learn. The protests were not just about immigrants, as for the most part, immigrants have been left alone, and will continue to be left alone. Witness the failure of any consensus in Congress. Nobody wants to see hard working people thrown in jail because they came here in search of better opportunity, but the reality is that the current anarchy of illegal immigration does not help immigrants or the country.
But for Marxists to take this difficult issue and turn it into an opportunity to create more divisiveness, tear the country down and remold it into their Utopian vision is downright seditious.
“You ignorant slut”... the people you mention were not “ILLEGAL!!!” What do you not understand about Manifest Destiny...?
Manifest Destiny was a common belief in the United States in the mid-1800’s, that Americans had a “manifest destiny” from God to settle and spread democracy across the continent and perhaps even the entire western hemisphere. To achieve this destiny, hundreds of thousands left their homes during the 1830’s and 1850’s and embarked on the Oregon Trail, on the Mormon Trail to Utah or to mine gold in California. Manifest Destiny led to Presidents Tyler and Polk to annex Texas, acquire Oregon from Britain, and wage the Mexico War to seize California. (Fremont defeated the Mexican forces in Alto-California with an Army of 200)
Combine this with the 1830 Indian Removal Act that authorized the U.S. Army to evicted by force all Native Americans east of the Mississippi River and resettled them on permanent reservation in Oklahoma and Nebraska. This led to the Aroostook War, Black Hawk War, Seminole War, and the “Trail of Tears.” (Supported by President Andrew Jackson, Democrat) Add in Social Reform, Religious Revivalism (Shakers, Mormons, and Millerites) an evolving Market Economy along with the civil unrest in Europe led to the influx to America.
If one wanted to immigrate to America in those years, you could... If one landed in America, could pass a basic fiscal to show that, you were not carrying any disease (not like today) pay a state or local tax, you were allowed to enter.
Transcendentalism was the rule of the day, where individuality and strength of character was paramount. There were no free hand-outs, Medicaid, Welfare, Food Stamps our Education. If you wanted to get ahead, you learned English and assimilated into the American Culture. Not unlike your descendants.
So dinesh… climb back onto the Sunshine Bus and go back to your window licking!!!
Posted by: Pacific Grove Phlash on April 12, 2006 12:18 PMIn addition to a change in Mexico, we in the US need to stop embracing the idea of having our "near slaves" from Mexico. Hey, it was great when we had black slaves to clean our houses, work out in the fields, and take care of our children. Darn, some idiots freed the slaves and made slavery illegal. Now what are we going to do. Hey, let's bring in "illegal aliens" from Mexico. They will do the jobs that "Americans won't do!" They can clean our houses, work in the fields, and take care of our children. We can pay them less than minimum wage and give them no benefits. Thank God we still have a good supply of "near slaves." Plenty of Americans will do these jobs if they have decent wages and benefits.
All this being said, we will need to make sure we allow for significant legal immegration because our own internal population growth rate is not strong enough to support future economic expansion. We need a good supply of young workers (both blue collar and white collar).
Posted by: PW on April 12, 2006 01:06 PMI haven't seen anyone here speak against immigrants. To the contrary, a number of people have gone out of their way to say how much they appreciate the contributions of immigrants.
On the other hand, it appears that a lot of people here are concerned about illegal aliens demanding that they should be allowed to cut to the front of the line, ahead of all the rest of the people who want to immigrate to the US.
And it appears that a lot of people here are troubled by the notion that those who disrespected the US and broke its laws by entering illegally, and compounded that insult by breaking more laws to remain here illegally, should nevertheless be rewarded with citizenship.
Posted by: ewaggin on April 12, 2006 02:06 PMI hate to be the one that break your bubble but...
Gen. Moses Cleaveland, b. 1/24/1754 d. 11/1/1806 in Canterbury County, Connecticut.
Graduated Yale in 1777
Commissioned as Captain in 1779-1781
Went into legal practice in Conn.1782
In 1796 commissioned Brig. Gen. in Conn. Militia
Gen. Cleaveland a shareholder in the Connecticut Land Company is appointed Land Agent for the company and purchases land in N.E. Ohio for $1,200,000.
Heads party of 50 to (6 surveyors, a doctor, a Chaplin, a boatman, 37 employees, and 4 “Legal” Immigrants) to the Ohio Area.
July 22, 1796 surveyed and plotted the area along the Cuyahoga River and named it Cleaveland.
In 1830, the name of the city was changed to Cleveland by the first newspaper the Cleveland Advertiser because the name did not fit on the letterhead.
Pres. Grover Cleveland is in NO WAY related to Moses Cleaveland!!!
Get your facts right and...The Sunshine Bus will be by to get you in the morning, keep the windows dry!!!
Posted by: Pacific Grove Phlash on April 12, 2006 08:26 PMGet better dope or a better writer . . . .
What a ditz
Posted by: Amused by liberals liberal lying insanity on April 12, 2006 10:34 PMThis is an issue of national security, first and foremost. If Homeland Security doesn't come to grips with this, then it is useless! (Preserving our national identity, and maintaining government services for use by legal residents are important as well).
Posted by: Peggy U on April 13, 2006 09:34 AMThere are an estimated 10 million adult Mexican citizens in the USA, including both legal immigrants and illegal aliens.
Mexico recently passed a law to allow Mexican citizens residing outside the country to vote by absentee ballot.
However, only 56,749 absentee ballot applications were timely submitted by Mexicans living outside the country. The vast majority of these applications, of course, were from Mexicans in the USA.
This means that 99.5% of the eligible Mexican electorate residing in the USA is refusing to participate in their own country's election.
http://pewhispanic.org/files/execsum/60.pdf
Posted by: Richard Pope on April 13, 2006 07:29 PMAll bald guys are not skinheads
All Germans are not Nazi's.
All dems are not stupid (nor are they all smart)
All republicans are not smart (nor are they all stupid)
All Americans who didn't protest the war in Viet Nam were not for it.
All demonstrating hispanics do not align themselves with radical (rediculous) notions.
(Almost non of them do)
There are sarcastic(I hope) postings on this and other sites that suggest we start shooting (that was metaphor for let's say extreme punative action at the border)
I don't want any reader to think I align myself with that simply because I read or post here - ..If a news or survey person was reporting on this site - they could report something like... "members of the notorious Sound Politics web/news organization want consertina wire and machine guns along our southern and northern borders to repel aliens "
People from -a distant world view- who read that but don't have a clue what goes on in this blog - just might believe it .
Have you ever bought a hammock from a vender on the beach in say- Costa Rica or Baja.
The seller may ask- even demand 200 at the start.
In the end he (and you) will part happy after having made the exchange for 20.
There is an element of this in all politics.
Happy Easter
HE died to save us.
Everybody who believes gets to say that