December 20, 2005
Partisan battle over all-mail voting in Snohomish County

"All-mail balloting voted down - for now"

A pitch to switch to all-mail elections was rejected by Snohomish County Council Republicans on Monday, but Democrats vowed to revisit the issue in January when they are in the majority
Democrat Executive Aaron Reardon and Democrat Auditor "Sideshow" Bob Terwilliger strongly favor all-mail voting. For some reason, Democrats support all-mail voting more than Republicans do, even though mail-voting can be more easily manipulated by election workers than poll voting and is also more susceptible to fraud.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 20, 2005 08:48 AM | Email This
Comments
1. That would be tragic! People are not reliable! Not like those good old , reliable "last minute surge for Republicans" Diebold machines. You guys are so transparently dishonest.

Posted by: Winston Smith on December 20, 2005 08:54 AM
2. Now see, there you go again Stefan.

In the 2005 election, not one county that had all mail balloting reported any problems, and not one county that had all mail balloting had results that were "easily manipulated" by poll workers.

You are a rather paranoid individual. Seek help now.

Posted by: rossi too on December 20, 2005 09:00 AM
3. At least they're not doing it on the sly like they did to us here in Thurston County.

Furthermore, once the USPS moves our postmark to Tacoma, how can we safely wait until voting day for the late-breaking scandals and crimes? If we vote too early by mail, we could miss something important!

Posted by: starboardhelm on December 20, 2005 09:05 AM
4. As someone who has experience all-mail voting down here in Oregon (where that's your ONLY option), I can attest to the multiple opportunities for fraud. DON'T DO IT.... oh unless you're a Democrat. After all, elections seem to be getting hard for you folks on the left to win. Without cheating, that is.

Posted by: libertarianobserver on December 20, 2005 09:06 AM
5. As someone who has experienced all-mail voting down here in Oregon (where that's your ONLY option), I can attest to the multiple opportunities for fraud. DON'T DO IT.... oh unless you're a Democrat. After all, elections seem to be getting hard for you folks on the left to win. Without cheating, that is.

Posted by: libertarianobserver on December 20, 2005 09:07 AM
6. sorry for the double-post...

Posted by: libertarianobserver on December 20, 2005 09:08 AM
7. IF WINSTON IS FOR IT THEN, I'AM AGAINST IT.

KNOLEDGE IS KNOWING FACTS. WISDOM IS KNOWING HOW TO USE THOSE FACTS.

Posted by: TACOMA PHLASH on December 20, 2005 09:43 AM
8. I say good for the Republicans! After all, it's not like it denies mail ballot voting to anyone; it just preserves poll voting for those who prefer it, and thereby cuts down on potential fraud to some degree, since more fraud happens with mail voting!

Posted by: Michele on December 20, 2005 10:17 AM
9. "Democrats support all-mail voting more than Republicans do, even though mail-voting can be more easily manipulated by election workers than poll voting and is also more susceptible to fraud."

Says it all, doesn't it?

Posted by: Moonbat_patrol on December 20, 2005 10:22 AM
10. Coming our way in King County soon

Sims calls for all-mail voting system
10:20 AM PST on Tuesday, December 20, 2005
Associated Press

SEATTLE - King County Executive Ron Sims has proposed an all-mail-in voting system for Washington's largest county.

Sims called a news conference Tuesday in Seattle to say Elections Director Dean Logan is working on options for the 1.2 million voters to cast their ballots by mail.

Fifty-five percent of King County voters already cast ballots as permanent absentee voters. Sims' spokeswoman Carolyn Duncan says more than 70 percent of voters use absentee ballots in any election.

She says there would be five polling places in the county for voters who like to cast ballots in person.

Most counties in Washington already conduct their elections by an all-mail-in vote.

Posted by: Mike on December 20, 2005 10:41 AM
11. Now you KLOWNS have plenty of ways to cheat!!!
Many of the problems last year were related to mail-in ballots.
I can’t wait to see how LOW the standards to validate signatures will be. Low standards…no ID required.
What a great day to be a LEFTIST!

11 million Iraqi’s went to the polls to vote.
They had to walk as cars were not permitted Election Day.
These people risked their lives to vote.
You KLOWNS complain about the Iraqi Election????
The KLOWNS complain that it is cruel and unfair to force citizens to go to the polls. Now they are taking away the choice.
Clearly, the LEFTIST PINHEADS prefer all mail-in voting because of NO ID required.
Bottom-line---
What is the standard for validating signatures???
How can we who are legitimate voters be assured their are adequate controls to prevent us from being disenfranchised?

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on December 20, 2005 10:54 AM
12. All mail-in for King County means that the Republicans MUST set up a system of Internal Controls.....monitoring these ballots from the PRINTER, thru the MAILING and thru return of ballots and processing.
EVERY SINGLE BALLOT printed MUST be accounted for.
EVERY SINGLE BALLOT mailed must be accounted for.
EVERY SINGLE BALLOT return must be carefully scrutinized and any questionable ballots MUST be called to make sure the registered voter actually voted that ballot.

We must insist on a high standard of accountability for ballots and signatures.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on December 20, 2005 10:58 AM
13. The LAST hope to reclaim King County and the State of Washington from the grips of the Marxist/Leninists slipped through the fingers of the voters in November. King Sims is emperor for life, and any semblance of a representative government in this state is gone. No Republican can even get elected as Dog Catcher now. BOHICA.

Posted by: Gene From Woodinville on December 20, 2005 11:05 AM
14. Except for a relatively few cases of clearly defined circumstances, I really don't see what the problem is with voting in person, physically presenting yourself at your designated polling place, and casting your ballot. If you are too lazy or too uninterested or just don't care enough to take the time to do that, I really wonder if you have what it takes to participate in a system of self-governance.

You know, I have been voting at the polls for all of my adult life. I have never had a problem doing it. Sure, it takes a little time, but I can make the time. I'm not all that exceptional or gifted, just an ordinary sort of person. If I can do it, surely the vast majority of eligible voters can do likewise. And surely the liberal 'Rats, who always claim to be so much smarter and better than the rest of us, aren't going to admit that there is something a plain old moderate/conservative can do that they can't.

Posted by: Interested Observer on December 20, 2005 11:11 AM
15. Looks like I'm done with voting. Our King county King, er, executive, is putting the finishing touches on his disenfranchisement plan:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002694318_websims20.html

King County executive calls for all-mail voting system

King County Executive Ron Sims today proposed an all-mail voting system for the state's largest county, which came under intense criticism for mistakes made during the 2004 general election.

These "mistakes" included improper handling of ballots (not securing the ones that came in, giving blank absentee ballots to workers to take home, dubious counting techniques), falsifying election reports (Nicole Way cooked her books) and lying about the number of unreconciled absentee ballots. Oh, and counting more votes than voters.

And still the judge said there wasn't any fraud. The libs are right; democracy is dead. Just not in the way they expected.

Ron Sims is scum. Because I have to register a political party, they know whose vote to count and whose to throw in the circular file. Maybe when I go through the motions of voting by absentee, I'll include some of the contents of my cat's litter box to voice my opinion of King County and the people that run it.

Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 11:14 AM
16. Don't give up!! Never give up!!

Posted by: swatter on December 20, 2005 11:16 AM
17. What value should we put on the integrity of ballots.

Are they simple documents that can be handled in any old way?
Are they more important that a memo from one gov't worker to another?
I'd say they are more important.
How important?
How should they be processed?

I would say they are at least as important as evidence in a trial.
Evidence requires a chain of custody. That is it always known who has custody and access to an item at all times. If there is any moments when that item is unsecured, or unaccounted for the chain is broken and the evidence is presumed to be tainted and cannot be used.

What is chain of custody for a mail ballot.
It is drop in the mail system, addressed to a recipient.
What proof that the intended recipient receives, fills out and returns the ballot of their own violation?
NONE other that a signature.

Such a process doesn't come close to a evidentiary standard let alone a reasonable standard for ballot security.

For mail ballots to work.

Absolute accounting.
Every ballot received must match a ballot sent and be tied to a legally registered voter.
The Elections department must be able to prove that all vote are legally cast, no illegal addresses, no double voters.
0 error accounting for ballots received and counted.
Airtight chain of custody for ballots received.

With that it will be impossible to prove who actually filled and and returned a ballot.

Our vote is to important for anything less that stellar standards.

With mail balloting there are too many holes in the system.

On top of that elections departments have trouble meeting even modest accounting standards when it comes to control and counting ballots.

One person.
One vote.
A fundamental cornerstone of the Republic.
Undermine that, you are suggesting nothing less than an attack on the integrity of the Republic.

Posted by: jCM on December 20, 2005 11:21 AM
18. Swatter:
Give up? GIVE UP??? The fat lady has sung, the time has expired, the other team has left the field. It's not giving up, it's facing reality ...GAME OVER!

Posted by: Gene From Woodinville on December 20, 2005 11:24 AM
19. Believe it or not, there are a few democrats in Seattle who are actually real Americans. They look sideways at Sims and his gang of plumbers.

Since we've seen that the state and local GOP's are essentially worthless, maybe it's time to *gulp* start attending democratic party meetings. Maybe we could convince a few of the real dems to recognize this attack on secret ballots for what it is.

Posted by: Steve_dog on December 20, 2005 11:42 AM
20. Gene, don't give up!! Never give up!!

We've only lost round two.

Posted by: swatter on December 20, 2005 12:01 PM
21. I have to go along wiht #2, stefan is just plain paranoid. Fix the fraudulent counting, don't violate rights. It's my right to vote by mail.

Posted by: doug on December 20, 2005 12:26 PM
22. doug,

Oh really!

Where is that right?

In the Constitution by doug?

You have the right to vote.

US Constitution
Amendment XV
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or
abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or
previous condition of servitude.


Washington Constitution
ARTICLE VI
ELECTIONS AND ELECTIVE RIGHTS

SECTION 1 QUALIFICATIONS OF ELECTORS.
All persons of the age of eighteen years or over who are citizens of the United States and who have lived in the state, county, and precinct thirty days immediately preceding the election at which they offer to vote, except those disqualified by Article VI, Section 3 of this Constitution, shall be entitled to vote at all elections. [AMENDMENT 63, 1974 Senate Joint Resolution No. 143, p 807. Approved November 5, 1974.]

SECTION 6 BALLOT.
All elections shall be by ballot. The legislature shall provide for such method of voting as will secure to every elector absolute secrecy in preparing and depositing his ballot.

I don't see "mail ballot" anywhere.

You have no right to vote by mail.

Go do some reading, learn something, and come back and contribute to an intelligent debate.

The concern around here is having every legal ballot cast, counted accurately, counted once.

I see no evidence for any confidence in a all mail ballot systems. Especially in King Co.

Posted by: JCM on December 20, 2005 01:08 PM
23. Swatter - We've lost a lot more than round two:
1. Initiative 601 - gutted (round 1)
2. $30 license tabs - abridged (round 2)
3. Queen Christine (round 3)
4. King Ron (round 4)
5. Initiative 912 (round 5)
6. CAO (round 6)
7. Brightwater (round 7)

How many rounds to this event? If it's a 15 rounder, we would have to win out from here (and that ain't happenin').

Posted by: Gene From Woodinville on December 20, 2005 01:28 PM
24. Some of those aren't rounds- just jpunches within a round. The event is a 15 rounder and will be fought over the next three years. Pace yourself.

Right now the Rs are doing the old Rope-a-Dope. At least I hope it is the old trick. I would hate to think they are playing it straight up.

Posted by: swatter on December 20, 2005 01:36 PM
25. Swatter - When we say "The R's" aren't we really talking about the ledership in Washington? Like Vance, and before him Clyde? If that's the case, then I think we both know who is the dope. Without leadership at the state level that has even one testacle, let alone a pair, we will continue to have our heads handed us at every turn. When I think of REAL R leadership, I start with the likes of Dino, but unfortunately I end there as well. Hell, Vance even screwed up Wenatchee, with a favorable judge to boot.

Posted by: Gene From Woodinville on December 20, 2005 01:58 PM
26. Gene sez:
"How many rounds to this event? If it's a 15 rounder, we would have to win out from here (and that ain't happenin').
Posted by Gene From Woodinville at December 20, 2005 01:28 PM "
There always remains the "PUNCHER'S CHANCE" Gene.
It's more like however that LENIN'S USEFUL IDIOTS may actually knock themselves out before the final bell in the 15th round!!! Actually, that is more likely than the Washington Republicans knocking them out!!
Keep in mind Gene that these PINHEADS are very capable of enormous levels of stupidity. For example, the HYPOCRITE FISH!!! Now the Dems are CHRISTIAN-HATERS. How dumb was that?? And this whole vote analysis issue is far, far from over. I also believe the whole overcooked I HATE BUSH mantra is beginning to backfire.
The R's need some leadership....quick!! No doubt. But trust the fact that the Dems are stupid enough to drop their guard and stick their chin out!!!

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on December 20, 2005 03:10 PM
27. "But trust the fact that the Dems are stupid enough to drop their guard and stick their chin out!!!"

And the Republicans in this State are just inept enough to miss the chin and trip over themselves ... it's like watching the Keystone Kops, except it's not funny (except to the Democrats, who are laughing themselves silly at our repeated failed antics and ineptitude). Where the hell is the leadership going to come from???

Posted by: Gene From Woodinville on December 20, 2005 03:37 PM
28. Great! No More ID needed. I am so proud of Ron Sims, he can get around one of the only meaningful reforms the legislature put in place last year. Stay tune, the Legislature will be back in office in January, and will no doubt make it more easier for them to cheat.


Gotta Love it!

Posted by: GS on December 20, 2005 03:38 PM
29. all mail voting in Oregon enjoys broad support across the political spectrum and I think that many conservative Oregonians would be surprised to find out that they are leftist pinheads. The potential for fraud exists in any electoral system, and Oregon has less than many other states, probably less than Washington. Procedural reforms of the mechanics of voting are not a conspiracy. Maybe if Sound Politics had a link to a lefty web site full of shrill rheoric and perceived conspiracies on the part of conservatives then we could all see how rediculous this can seem. Let's stop responding to the personalities involved and pay attention to the actual policies being considered. Ad hominem attacks please the home crowd, but that's no way to evaluate public policy choices.

Posted by: Alan Scott on December 20, 2005 06:37 PM
30. Again I will ask, because I haven't gotten an answer from any of the liberals here who claim to be so smart and superior, what is your problem with just physically showing up at your designated polling place on election day and casting your ballot in person? Why is that so hard for you? What is the big deal about doing that? I have been doing it myself for many, many years. Take it from me, it isn't all that hard to do. Surely as wise and all-powerful elite liberals, you're not going to admit that there is something that I can do and you can't. So just show up at the polls, and save that stamp for paying the bills.

Posted by: Interested Observer on December 20, 2005 07:23 PM
31. Except for some pesky little laws about the registration information being true and correct, ID being required and something about residency, there aren't too many other safeguards built into the current all mail ballot scenario.

Per RCW 29A.08.120, you may register by mail. Cool, don’t have to show ID or even be seen.

Per RCW 29A.40.040, you may request to be an ongoing absentee voter. With the requirement of some counties for all mail balloting, this is moot (sort of).

Per RCW 29A.08.010, if you don't have any of the ID listed, you are given a unique registration number - you are registered anyway, without ID. No indication of what they do with the unique number…

Per RCW 29A.08.112, you can say you live in Pioneer Square, Volunteer Park, Golden Gardens, etc. and register the address as the nearest government building - King County Elections Office – (unless you’re a Democrat lawyer, then any address will do, right Kevin Hamilton?). You can also register at a mailbox, just don’t put P.O. Box or MBO or PMB in the address, right Dean Logan? Also, use a different address for your mailing address. Just be careful to not be too obvious, but what would that be Dean Logan?

Per RCW 29A.08.113, when you vote absentee the first time, your ballot will be treated as a provisional. (ID required if you go to a polling site). If the signature matches the voter registration records, your vote counts. Doesn’t say what other forms of ID are needed.

Per RCW 29A.08.830, a challenger must prove that you don't live where you said and they must prove where you do live. Right Dean Logan? Since the laws are arranged to make it easy to register, you wouldn’t even need to exist. If someone challenges your registration, don’t appear before the board and certainly don’t admit you don’t live where you registered and you’re off the hook, right Dean Logan?

Voting at a polling site allows you to mark your ballot, have the machine check it and reject it if there are problems. Then YOU correct your own ballot - not some group of strangers trying to divine what THEY think you meant. If they try to divine the marking on a ballot, aren't they really substituting their judgment for yours?

Though we have laws to allow all mail voting, I do not believe we have a set of laws and audit trail requirements to effectively handle 100% all mail voting.

Posted by: SouthernRoots on December 20, 2005 09:28 PM
32. It is unfortunate that people are too busy, lazy, or inept to travel to a local polling place to cast their vote a couple times a year. My daughter has accompanied me to vote on several occaisions to witness this event that symbolizes one of our freedoms, and she experienced first hand one of the freedoms we enjoy. Unfortunately, children won't get to experience this if voting by mail comes to pass, which carries the same heady thrill as paying a bill, or mailing in that rebate coupon. How wonderful.

Too lazy to visit the polls, too ignorant to fill out a ballot properly, too dishonest to record their real address on a voter registration... maybe we don't deserve our form of government anymore.

I apologize for the ranting, but since many of the above argue with baseless opinion, distorted facts, and raw emotion, I thought I'd try it. Not very satisfying...

Posted by: Miles on December 21, 2005 03:30 PM
33. In red eastern Washington, we have just had mail ballots forced down our throats. I won't stand for it! I will call the Whitman county commissioners, they will tell me the money that is "wasted" on elections and mail in ballots is cheaper for the taxpayer. Can you imagine, money is "wasted" to provide a vote?
Anyway, we are small enough to shop at the same grocery stores as our law makers. I intend to undo this travesty.

Posted by: April Coggins on December 21, 2005 09:32 PM
34. I have been interested to read about how I am "too busy, lazy, or inept to travel to a local polling place to cast their vote a couple times a year". I work a fifteen hor day every Tuesday. But, Oh yeah, I'm lazy.

Posted by: Alan Scott on December 26, 2005 08:32 PM
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