Yesterday Matt dinged Mrs. Gregoire for proposing that English-learning students be allowed to take the math WASL in their native language. State Rep. Gigi Talcott, ranking Republican on the House Education Committee, also states it very well today in a press release
“The governor’s suggestion that we make it easier for students who have not mastered English by translating portions of the test into their native language defeats the purpose of the test as a measure of proficiency. How can we pretend that a student who can’t read the test in English has mastered the reading, writing and language standards necessary for graduation?Indeed. The biggest favor we can do for all of our children is not to lower standards, but to maintain high standards. It's a tragedy for all of us that so many in the public education industry and their (primarily Democrat) political sponsors either don't understand this concept or don't care.
UPDATE Putting 2 and 2 together, I can't help but wonder if the Democrats' insistence on lowering educational standards is actually a cynical ploy to cultivate more Democrat voters.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 16, 2005 05:38 PM | Email ThisAfter all, wouldn't those students be surprised to find out that their lack of proficiency in english, written and oral, might actually HINDER their job prospects and higher ed prospects????
Posted by: Michele on December 16, 2005 06:39 PMRepublicans have no ideas or solutions, just whiny complaints and plenty of funding for corporate welfare--- the same money that funds Republican political efforts. Besides "privatizing" (enslaving our Democracy) to every corporate interest under the sun, what ideas do you have?
Why don't you take some PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for the craphole you Republicans have sunk this country in with your lies and irresponsibility?
Posted by: Winston Smith on December 16, 2005 06:54 PMThe taxes are an abomination. The amount of money that is spent in this state for education is wasted if only 50% of the students are passing the WASL. I demand that my tax dollars used for education be spent on items of value. Why should this state continue to flush money down a never ending sink hole? My Dad had a saying for it, he called it spending good money on bad money, and then it's all bad money. There is a time to cut your losses and run.
Posted by: sgmmac on December 16, 2005 07:56 PMYou spelled it right this time. I thought you said Deocrats were the ones to blame. Oh by the way I do take responsibility when I Lie, not like your liberal friends.
Posted by: Dave on December 16, 2005 08:13 PMNCLB requires that schools prove they are indeed educating our children, or lose federal funds. Our schools were already well funded, but apparently without the objective proof that our children were being well educated. Why is that? Why should the federal government be involved at all? Isn't education a state and local issue?
If Gregoire and our current legislature were to tax us all at 100%, would we no longer have unsafe roads? Would all of our children be highly educated? Would all of our homeless be gone? Would we have 100% livable wage employment? Would hunger be eliminated? Would everyone have unlimited healthcare coverage? Would everyone have all they need for a long and fruitful retirement?
I don't think so - there would always be something that just needed more money....
Posted by: SouthernRoots on December 16, 2005 08:20 PMDid you have anything to say?
Posted by: South County on December 16, 2005 08:39 PMClearly, you don't pay much in federal taxes yourself and you don't pay state B&O taxes. Otherwise you'd know what I'm talking about.
"M" stands for MAKE MY DAY.
Posted by: M on December 17, 2005 12:10 AMYou keep stepping out there. There are many languages spoken in this country, in an effort to accomodate as many of these "English as second language" citizens we make allowances. This offends you and you have a right to be offended.
I am offended by your complete lack of compassion and understanding for those not raised here or as educatated as you think yourself to be or who dare not to agree with your politics.
Tolerance, diversity and understanding are values that you could stand to show a whole lot more of.
You ranted against gay marriage. The cat is out of the bag, and not going back in. The majority has spoken. You ranted about the Patriot Act, it is dying a well deserved death, and again, the majority has spoken. Now you rant about native languages, and you will be in the minority again. You have much to learn, Mr. Sharkansky.
You are no mench and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 17, 2005 12:59 AMThank you.
Posted by: DugouNut on December 17, 2005 01:01 AMAs for the post, Stefan wonder's whether it's a cynical ploy to create more Dem voters. Well, we know they want to lower the standards for voter registration, ballot authentication, go to all mail balloting and in general look the other way when non-citizens vote. And we know that ballots and voter guides are printed in multiple languages. And we know that the canvassing board and election workers are standing by to duplicate ballots and help each voter with improperly filled in ovals.
And then there's the new $11 Million facility for drunks.
It's definitely safe to say the Dems are the party of subsidy and lowered standards.
Posted by: Jeff B. on December 17, 2005 01:05 AMBut then again, adding two and two together might just be 5 for some people...and it would be accepted as their answer under the Democrats' ideals of soft standards.
Heck, two and two could be 22 and the Democrats might applaud their thinking and pattern skills.
Posted by: Cydney on December 17, 2005 01:50 AMYou seem to be one of those poor saps Stephen is concerned about not understanding english. If you understood english you'd know that all three subjects you mention, Stephen is on the majority side, and that 2 of the 3 don't belong in this thread. Kudos to you for being the perfect democrat.
Posted by: Dave on December 17, 2005 03:49 AMOnly someone who is stupid could come up with this conclusion, but we've been dealing with Republicans a long time in this state , so this pathetic attempt to twist the meaning and intent of the proposed action is not surprising!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!(no offense)
Posted by: Winston Smith on December 17, 2005 06:33 AMAre you suggesting we rid ourselves of all taxes? I don't think you are that stupid.
Consider this: When the oil companies gouge us for their product and explain that they need to in order to do more exploration, isn't that taxation without representation? In a truly free market price gouging cannot occur. So, they are a de-facto, unelected government that taxes without representation. You can come to no other logical conclusion than that those who oppose big oil are the current day patriots and those who do not are the Tories who support the crown. What will we do with you when we have finally won?
Please have an original thought on occasion. I will congratulate you, at least, in limiting your idiocy to comments about oil company price gouging (again, no clue for you).
Posted by: Danny on December 17, 2005 07:43 AMOf course it is! Being on the cutting edge of cynicism since the day God put me on this Earth, I have grown to distrust the motives of LEFTIST PINHEADED CLOWNS like Gregoire at every turn.
Most Hispanic people who come here to work hard and build a life become Conservative real fast....even if they do not speak fluent English. The LEFTIST PINHEADEDS probably call non-English speaking folks and tell them if they connect the arrow next to Gregoire's name, it means they are voting against her (shooting her with an arrow!).
Shouldn't everyone that is, or wants to be, a citizen be given every opportunity to learn the language of our country? No one is asking them to drop their native language, only that they become proficient in the deeply rooted national language of the United States.
That being said - 2+2=4 in any language. However, in the critical thinking programs in our schools, students must know more than just the numbers - they are required to be able to figure out story problems. The story problems are where proficiency in language comes into play.
Proficiency in reading and speaking the language doesn't always work out in spelling or writing....
Posted by: SouthernRoots on December 17, 2005 09:20 AM
I am offended by your complete lack of compassion and understanding for those not raised here or as educatated as you think yourself to be or who dare not to agree with your politics.
Tolerance, diversity and understanding are values that you could stand to show a whole lot more of.
Why?
Posted by: South County on December 17, 2005 09:32 AMYou might want to go to the free clinic. Medicine could help.
Posted by: South County on December 17, 2005 09:35 AMDespite what the trolls are saying, education does need to be fixed in the US, especially science, technology, engineering and math (STEM).
STEM needs to be integrated into K-16 instruction and it needs to be more than save the whales/salmon/bears/wolves/etc., protect the old growth forests, or prevent global warming.
The future of this country's economy depends upon skilled workers, innovation, and dare I say it highly motivated and skilled engineers who will invent and design things that can be sold on a world market. We can't do each others laundry and expect to have a high standard of living.
The choice before this country is the economic standard and upward mobility of our citizens. This is not about how many minorities pass a standardized test or it the WASL test has flaws. This is about how many family wage jobs our citizens will be entitled to in a world economy based on the level of education they have.
P.S. To the trolls that say I have done nothing....I have volunteered and taught STEM in the grade school where my two sons attended. I have taught teacher training sessions at a multi-school district in-service day training event. I have organized a major conference to address K-16 needs in this state that involved OSPI, politicians, educators, concerned citizens, etc. I have also ordered off the internet, paid for with my own money, science experiment kits and given them to a junior high school technology teacher. Finally, I have spoken to my local elected officials about the importance of education and I have gone back to WA DC to do the same.
This is important stuff and I am not in the education business, but feel education is critical to the US economy.
Posted by: Bob on December 17, 2005 10:06 AMUnfunded mandate: The Bush administration has doubled education spending in the last five years, so I agree with you here Winston, it's wrong to spend almost $10,000.00 per student nation wide and still get the poor results we get. We should end all federal education spending immediately.
Income taxes: Of course as far as the left is concerned what we really need is to disincentives personal production until it makes more sense for the state to own the means of production and our labor and the state can give us just as much as we need to keep it moving along. Me, I'm at the limit of my tolerance for taxes, there is nothing the government can't do half as well for twice as much money as the private sector
Oil company profits: Yes, yes, profits are evil, we all know that, and the 9 cents per gallon that the oil companies made in the second half of 2005 is appalling, of course Coke made 31 cents per gallon profit during the same period, clearly gouging, and an average bottle of water at $1.50 a liter is about 6 dollars a gallon and that stuff falls from the sky.
I'm tired of cultural equivalence, My country, working in English, respecting individual liberty, and acknowledging right and wrong has built the strongest economic and political system on the planet. Values matter, language matters, common goals and traditions matter, they are what bind us together e pluribus unum, not e pluribus pluribus, so come to my country with the same goals as my ancestors and you'll get my support and respect. That means work hard, assimilate, build a better life for your children by making them Americans, not little foreigners taking American school classes in a language that won't help them get ahead in America.
Ok, off the soapbox.
If you don't like the WASL (and I don't), do something. Tell your state legislator, offer options (like ITBS plus an essay to test writing skills) and, most, important, opt your child out of the WASL (not at 10th, of course, unless you don't care if they get a diploma but at any grade below 10th). If enough parents opted their children out of the WASL, say for two year, the legislature and OSPI would have to do something. We do have rights as parents of public schoolchildren whether Terry Bergeson, Christine Gregoire or George Bush believe it or not.
Posted by: westello on December 17, 2005 10:41 AMTo David Goldstein--- Hannukah begins on Sunday, December 25th at sundown. Just thought you might like to know!!!
And to the 3% of you offended by Merry Christmas (according to the recent Gallup Poll), I’d appears the appropriate thing to say might be Have a Nice Day!!!!…although that may offend about half of you grumps who love living in darkness.
There is also another basic to education which never changes: Parent-teacher involvement. Children have a tough time at school if the parent does not value the childs education.
Posted by: joer on December 17, 2005 11:32 AMIt shouldn’t have taken a threatened law suit and being held up to nationwide public scorn but Washington State University officials have stopped paying student hecklers who shout down speakers with whom they disagree.
Unfortunately, the stench remains strong at Washington State University of a Stalinist suppression of political views that deviate from the politically correct academic liberal orthodoxy.
Regular readers of this space will recall from this July column that the controversy began when it was learned university administrators were paying students to heckle the production of a controversial play by a student author.
Student playwright Chris Lee warned attendees before his production was staged on campus that it would likely “offend everybody” and indeed some Mormon students who paid their own way to see the play silently protested its content.
But 40 other students repeatedly shouted “I am offended” and did everything in their power to shut down the production, including threatening performers on stage with physical harm. These protesting students were all Black, as is Lee.
Posted by: JDH on December 17, 2005 02:02 PMWinston, are you off your meds??
Posted by: THS on December 17, 2005 05:14 PMYou mean like the characters in Funky Winkerbean?
Posted by: Winston Smith on December 17, 2005 06:30 PMActually/in fact, the reality is cutting taxes increases receipts to governments, but far be it from me to confuse you with FACT.
Right off the IRS website: the top 5% of income earners pay 1/3 of all federal taxes.
Any real live thinking adult knows that if 5% of your customers/clients comprise 1/3 of your revenues, you are in deep doo doo.
So, Winston, your precious social programs are down the toilet in the next significant recession, simply because tax receipts will dramatically shrink, you moron.
Its a shame to see an adults go through life in a complete reality fog.
Oops, excuse me, it is you, Baghdad Jim, Pattycakes, Cantsmile and Queen Christine having such a good time at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party. Reality sucks doesnt it??
Posted by: THS on December 17, 2005 09:27 PMDo you know how much the State of Washington makes in profit from their liquor operations in this state?
Do you know how much the State of Washington makes in taxes off of ONE carton of cigarettes?
Do you know how much the State of Washington makes in taxes off of ONE can of Spam, ONE gallon of syrup, or ONE gallon of gasoline?
Do you know that a small business is taxed by our Federal Government at the same rate as individuals?
The big oil companies make a lot less profit per investment than most businesses in America. Gasoline prices are driven by supply and demand. When was the last time a oil refinery was built in the US? Why haven't they been building any?
Nobody in this "nanny' state has the right to complain about gasoline prices. This State has blocked every attempt to build or increase capacity, demanding that Puget Sound only be used for enough gasoline for this state and this state only. You want to know why gas prices went up, all of the refineries shut down in the Gulf coast. Washington State doesn't own the gasoline coming out of the BP refinery and BP set their prices according to every state that they sell gas in. You want cheap gas, let the oil companies build more refineries!
Additionally, before the Civil War wealth rarely lasted past 2 generations. The trend since then is that it stays in the sae failies generation after generation. We have develped a monied aristocracy and there is little room for others to rise. When the coon man finally understands rhe American dream is a farce, there is going to be big trouble right here in River City. A simple Google search reveals many respectable books and articles explaining this subject from a point of view quite different from the Heritage Foundation simplicity you seem to be dealing from. I suggest you avail yourself of a wider variety of information on this topic starting with this quote from A. Lincoln: "...corporations... and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." Nov. 24, 1864
By the way, I've researched the letter's authenticity and I realize you will try to ipeach it , but you will fail.
Posted by: Winston Smith on December 17, 2005 10:25 PMYour claim that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of federal taxes is mostly wrong. I have never seen those numbers that you cite. What is your source?
There should be limit on how many times a person's income should be taxed and there should also be a limit on how much should be taxed.
Those millionaires that you hate so much, pay around 30% of their income to the Federal Government, then their State takes a slice of it, then some Counties and Cities also take a slice. That usually leaves the millionaire with around half of what they made. That 50% gets sucked up with property taxes, sales taxes, sometimes business expenses and taxes, gasoline taxes, cigarette taxes, alcohol taxes, etc, etc, etc,.........
Of course, smart millionaires like Teresa Heinz-Kerry, invest the majority of the money in tax-free municipal bonds, so that they don't pay a "fair" share.
Then, there are the Paul Allens & Bill Gates' of the world who live in States without a State income tax. We know about Paul Allen and his Vulcan company who demands and receives every possible tax break that he can dream of from the Seattle City Council. Bill Gates has nothing but disdain and public criticism for the Seattle School District, yet he doesn't pay any State income tax that would help fund education in this state.
How much of 1 dollar earned do you think someone should give to government?
Posted by: sgmmac on December 17, 2005 11:48 PMThe two "examples" I listed were simply noting that in the past the Republican view (which Stefan supports, with nearly complete blind faith), and with regard to the two subjects that were not part of the post or thread, were just more examples of how the Republican party has lost touch with America.
I am sorry that you have difficulty comprehending that all I was doing was pointing out the obvious. I bolstered my argument with examples. Losing touch on one issue with America and we can excuse it with a "maybe you just missed it". Lose touch on three, and make that four with the Patriot Act going down in flames, and you are foolishly stubborn or just plain stupid. Choose your poison.
Politics, life and weather are all cyclical. We all work within a system that is effective, and, for the most part, fair. The problem, as I and many other Americans see it, is that Republicans in their haste to remain in power have used that power unwisely, and apparently, illegally.
I hope this is not too much for you understand. I tried to remember the KISS rule.
Happy Chanukah!
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 18, 2005 01:29 AMYour twiterpated stylization of indignance at Stefan is founded in transparent self-indulgent schmaltz. You don't give a damn about children or education. The primary purpose of education, is learning and development—not promotion of diversity.
Adapting education to diversity on its own terms means sacrificing consistency and requires that one must give way to the other. Sacrificing consistency hopelessly compromises the effectiveness of any educational system. The toleration of ignorance you exhibit in favor of egalitarianism is base degenerative stupidity in service to a preoccupation with inflating your pretense at moral superiority.
The intentionally low expectations of emotionally retarded liberals like you, are designed to dumb down America's children, pander to simplistic reasoning, and promote social delinquency and indolence in the disguise of compassion rather than the reality. You know nothing more about the Patriot Act than what Teddy Kennedy has said, and because that source is good enough for you, it is clear confirmation of your shallow susceptibility to suggestion from the lowest intellectual common denominator in our discourse.
Where the only sensible prerequisite to compassion is practicality, your sham compassion aimed at Stefan’s true concern rings hollow. Thanks for exhibiting everything America needs to be most afraid of—rank prejudice and stupidity (liberal Democrats) during time of war.
I am perpetually grateful that self appointed feeeelers like you come here to Sound Politics and expose yourselves for the truly intellectually bankrupt morons you are. Thanks and Merry Christmas.
i think that this is the major difference between the current "liberal" and "conservative" frame of thinking. as this quote indicates, people who call themselves "conservative" seem to think that there is only one reality which is correct and it must be enforced on everyone consistently.
Fortunately, none of our great inventors or thinkers have followed this line of thought, not even the people who founded this country. Read The Declaration of Independence,
"..all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."
One could say that rejecting complexity for the sake of consistency or dumbing down education is a republican ploy to gain votes.
Posted by: ig on December 18, 2005 06:37 PMThe top 5% owns 2/3 of the real wealth in this country. The top 1% owns 25% of all the wealth. Yet they pay a paltry 1/3 of the incoe taxes? Why so little?
Little brother is mixing apples and oranges. Income tax is paid on money earned, which is quite a different thing than accumulated wealth. If the top 1% earned about 10% interest income on their 25% of the national wealth, then they should be paying about 2-1/2 percent of all taxes. The fact that they are paying 33% of income taxes speaks very well of them, and I thank them.
Posted by: huckleberry on December 18, 2005 07:20 PMHow foolish can you get?
There is only one reality and it is enforced on everyone consistently . . . by the nature of reality itself. It can only be discovered by consistent careful observation, and your liberal refusal to accept it will not make it disappear. That people like you believe it will, is a never ending source of amusement for me.
The scientific method and the study of formal history through critical thinking are based on strict consistency and adherence to rules of intellectual rigor, and all of our great inventors and thinkers have followed this line of thought, most especially the people who founded this country.
”Science is best defined as a careful, disciplined, logical search for knowledge about any and all aspects of the universe, obtained by examination of the best available evidence and always subject to correction and improvement upon discovery of better evidence. What's left is magic. And it doesn't work. -- James RandiConservatives stick to precedent until they find something that works better. Liberals erratically pander to their emotions, make messes, and blame conservatives who clean them up. Benjamin Franklin applied the lessons of strict adherence to theoretic hypotheses and proofs (the sine qua non of which is consistency) to develop his theories and inventions. School children like Thomas Jefferson learned to read (English, Greek, Latin, and French), write, and cipher through rigidly consistent scholastic standards and thus achieved excellence. Without such rigor he would never have become literate enough to understand complex established philosophical theories and historical facts that are the basis of the Declaration of Independence. It was founded on a careful consistent study of hundreds of years of established history and political theory, not whimsical modern liberal bull$hit.
You cite the following portion of the Declaration of Independence,
"..all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...". . .and you eliminated the essential first part of this sentence for a reason. Earlier in the same sentence, Thomas Jefferson wrote ”Prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes” and accordingly "“..all experience hath shewn, that mankind . . . “
Our Declaration of Independence was written by an intellectual of the time who cared about and called for consistency of education so that following generations would be equipped to uphold the establishment of liberty gained through great difficulty by other serious and well educated men.
Liberalism being intellectually bankrupt is nevertheless popular because (as you so aptly illustrate) it doesn't require one to think. Your comments are great examples of the products of a dumbed-down liberal education. Hey what the heck, believe in whatever, and the unpleasantness will all just go away.
Thanks.
i am sorry that you have to hide behind incivility to make yourself sound more intelligent than others and if you need to discount my opinion by calling me names or by writing off what i say as "liberal" and therefore meaningless, you are just proving my point.
i am sorry if i did not include the entire declaration of independence in my comment. it was not a ruse, but a way to focus on my point. The beginning of the statement does not add anything new.
i was only responding to your statement that "adapting education to diversity...means sacrificing consistency and requires that one must give way to the other..." As you point out yourself, creative and intelligent people are not scared to challenge consistency (or the status quo) in the interest of knowledge.
I am not really sure what you are trying to say. It seems you pulled out the old thesaurus and went nuts. I would try to talk to you but I have difficulty dumbing down to your level. Also, I find your use of Yiddish to be condesending and in very poor taste.
I am neither emotionally backrupt nor a moron. I am a socially aware human being, with an education that, without any doubt, exceeds yours by the fact that I graduated high school. And that does not count the degree that my parents paid for, and that I earned, at the University of Southern California. (Go Trojans!)
I have neither the will nor the inclination to force anyone to bend to my will. (Republicans seem to feel that this is their Manifest Destiny. Google "Manifest Destiny" if you are confused at this point).
Anyway, the majority of Americans agree with me, the morally bankrupt morons that we are, and soon the likes of Frist, Bush, DeLay and Cunningham will not be heard from for another 20 years.
The Republican art of a great sound bite and a pretty picture is tired, old news now. The American people are now demanding substance, action and results. Unfortunately, for you, the Republican party is morally bankrupt.
Again, Happy Chanukah!
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 18, 2005 11:43 PMBull$hit.
Writing off what you say as "liberal" and therefore meaningless, may prove your point (somehow?), but it proves mine as well, so go figure. How you rationalize such a perverse claim is interesting to me so if you want to share it, I am all ears.
Nevertheless . . .
Your argument forms a complete intrinsic logical insolubility that is inescapable, which is why you proved completely incapable of evading it. At least this allows (though not necessarily) that you may have some comprehension of logic.
Your claim that the whole citation from the Declaration of Independence “adds nothing new,” ineluctably settles the quality of your objectivity and intellectual depth. Moreover, your admission of defeat by my observation that creative and intelligent people master consistency in the interest of knowledge before challenging the status quo shows some progress on your part towards recognition of immutable reality and the indispensable utility of conservatism. The fact that you refuse to apply this understanding to the liberal dumbing-down of education is mildly humorous, but completely understandable.
Thanks for the laughs.
Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on December 19, 2005 12:05 AMGee, the pages of your thesaurus must be worn out by now. Such intellectual sounding drivel. Typical Republican schmaltz.
Happy Chanukah and a Wonderful New Year!
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 19, 2005 12:53 AMThanks for the response. Your views and those of your ilk are not in any majority except on the editorial staffs of the MSM—TV news orgs and Newspapers. The most interesting and telling part of your response is that you address no arguments in any way nor counter or attempt to refute any points made; you merely focus on the trivial, change the subject, and reiterate your dogma. Good work comrade.
As you say “the American people are now demanding substance, action and results,” and by golly Ted Kennedy will give us that.
Thanks again for the humorous installment of liberal nonsense; I am perpetually grateful that self appointed feeeelers like you come here to Sound Politics and expose yourselves as the truly intellectually bankrupt smarta$$ morons you are.
I'm sure Stefan was just as duly cowed by the import of your highly charged remonstrations of lacking "compassion" as the rest of us were overcome by the gravity of your indictment, but he was probably busy propounding that oh so typical "Republican art of a great sound bite and a pretty picture."
Your clichéd self conscious stupidity speaks for itself.
Thanks again and Merry Christmas.
Out of curiosity, please clue me into something that appears to be uniquely in your ideological and intellectual province. How is it that you describe a “majority," based out of no majority whatsoever, as nevertheless a majority and then are satisfied with yourself that you are telling the truth?
You cite the issue of “gay marriage,” and how the “majority has spoken.” Where and how has a majority spoken? Courts are not majorities, they are insular minority elites.You neither represent nor participate in any majority opinion on any of these issues and yet it is easy for you to lie about them as though lying is nothing consequential. Why would anyone ever believe your rhetoric based on these lies?
-
You cited the Patriot Act, saying that “it is dying a well deserved death, and again, the majority has spoken.” What majority is that? A filibuster is expressly anti-majoritarian.
-
Then you cite the teaching of native languages, saying that Stefan ’will be in the minority again.” What majority would this be?
Well lets start at the beginning.
1. Overwhelmingly, opinion polls now favor gay marriage. (Personally, I favor civil union, but that is just my opinion). The ONLY folks screaming no are the ultra conservatives trying to placate their church going brethren.
2. The Patriot Act was defeated by a majority of the Senate, there was NO filibuster. It was implied, but not used. Again, opinion polls show that a majority of Americans are NO LONGER in favor of this act. (The recent revelation that the President himself authorized, illegally it seems, the spying on of American citizens engaged in "anti-war" activities, is not helping your cause).
3. Well, as for the education issue, this is a blue state, and you both are already in the minority.
Note: be sure you check the CNN, Fox, CBS and MSNBC polls before you take a hack at me here. I am not going to do your research for you in the hope that you will learn something from reading it on your own. (Though I don't really think this is likely). The fact that Bill Frist voted against it so that he could bring it up again at a later date is telling of the Republican way. You don't what is good for you, but don't worry, we will figure a way to shove it down your throat.
It never ceases to amaze me how Republican conservatives believe that there is only one way to do things. Never realizing that they are right. The problem is the real way is to vote, but y'all don't like that way. Instead, they constantly attempt to circumvent the vote by, among other things, challenging individual voters right to vote and attemtpting to change the rules of Congress to silence and eliminate dissent (dissent being defined as any thought, action or deed that is contrary to their narrow minded sense of self righteousness.
Fortunately, the tide has turned. Everyone (the majority)sees it coming. Your President has shown himself to be an ineffective leader. Your congressional leaders are under indictment and/or investigations that make the corporate scandals of recent vintage seem like childs play in comparison. One of these fine men has ADMITTED selling his vote.
The kicker is that when this is brought up, the Republican Conservatives pull out the Clinton card and scream adulterer, heathen, sinner. Personally, I don't care who sleeps with anyone else. I do care that when conducting the business of the government, MY GOVERNMENT, I want to know (or at least have the illusion) that there is some integrity involved in their decision making process. Your party has removed that illusion and replaced it with a culture of dishonesty, distrust and disillusionment.
Have a good morning and fine rest of your day!
Dug
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 19, 2005 03:38 AMrhetoric
n 1: using language effectively to please or persuade 2: high flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation [syn: grandiosity, magniloquence, grandiloquence] 3: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" [syn: palaver, hot air, empty words, empty talk] 4: study of the technique and rules for using language effectively (especially in public speaking).
This would be, based on your writings, completely your province.
Happy Holidays!
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 19, 2005 03:45 AMWhy do you hate the poor, KATOMAR? Why do you want to keep the wealth from those who deserve it?
Posted by: Winston Smith on December 19, 2005 07:52 AMPlease enlighten me.
Posted by: huckleberry on December 19, 2005 10:35 AMJust as I expected; you are all smart-a$$ bull$hit tactics and absolutely no facts.
Opinion polls are not majorities of anything moron; they are statistics, and they rarely represent majority opinions on any subject. What polls are you citing?
You say, ”Note: be sure you check the CNN, Fox, CBS and MSNBC polls before you take a hack at me here. I am not going to do your research for you.” Whose research? Your refusal to support any of your own claims speaks for itself. You have no arguments, only baseless partisan opinion. What an arrogant vacant pinhead you are.
1. Relevant majorities don't agree with your contention about Gay Marriage; quite to the contrary. If they did, laws would be springing up all across America, and they are not. Because of this, the left is forced to use the courts in an attempt to invent supposed rights that don’t exist.
2. The Patriot Act was not defeated by a majority of the Senate, there was a threatened filibuster (which itself in effect is a filibuster), and then a vote postponing cloture for further debate. Further, “stalling” a bill for further debate is not “defeating it.” Why not make some minimal attempt at accuracy for the sake of believability? What polls? Again there is no support for your claims.
You say ”the President himself authorized, illegally it seems, the spying on of American citizens engaged in "anti-war" activities, is not helping your cause.” Illiterate sentence, empty rhetoric.
Nevertheless, the Bush administration did nothing illegal, the eavesdropping activities they conducted were completely legal, and key members of Congress on both sides of the aisle have known about this for over 12 months. Democrats through main stream news outlets report this issue in such a way as to create false impressions, and you simply parrot the lies. I suppose you could say that a majority of MSM editor’s lies establish your point. Otherwise it is just more liberal bull$hit.
3. Blue state majority and education? O.K. maybe. Mores the pity.
The rest of your comments are boring inane poorly written irrelevancies and simple minded garbage from someone who cannot distinguish facts from fantasies.
Example: You write ”The fact that Bill Frist voted against it so that he could bring it up again at a later date is telling of the Republican way. You don't what is good for you, but don't worry, we will figure a way to shove it down your throat.” Are you aware of how illiterate, nonsensical, and punk-thuggish this statement is?
Since—given your comments—you are obviously satisfied with your idea of liberality, imtellectual honesty, and truthfullness, I am satisfied as well that such pathological dishonesty is uniquely in your ideological and intellectual province.
Again, you've proven that those people, who try so hard to master the pretense of being sooo enlightened, educated, and beyond us mere mortals, don't possess a fig of a brain between 'em.
You are a genius, even if it doesn't take one to best our friends.
Merry Christmas
Posted by: dan on December 19, 2005 11:33 AMThanks very kindly.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
Posted by: Amused by liberals on December 19, 2005 03:18 PMName calling is another tactic used by Republicans. You are very good at it. When the polls supported the Republicans you all pulled those out and waved them around like they were the Magna Carta. Hmmmm, the tables have turned, you don't like it.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
I have grown weary of your verbose, evil, wicked and rude manner. Your sentence structure sucks, to be polite. Your parents must be very proud.
As for me, this is the last post on this string. I refuse to do battle with a man so unarmed and with his head firmly planted so far up his posterior. Question......do you keep it there for warmth or out of fear of being discovered for the verbose, loquacious that you truly are?
Happy Chanukah!
Can you say President Hillary Clinton? You are going to love that, aren't you?
Dug
Note for Soup: Where did I cut and paste, you moron?
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 19, 2005 06:21 PMName calling is another tactic used by Republicans. You are very good at it. When the polls supported the Republicans you all pulled those out and waved them around like they were the Magna Carta. Hmmmm, the tables have turned, you don't like it.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
I have grown weary of your verbose, evil, wicked and rude manner. Your sentence structure sucks, to be polite. Your parents must be very proud.
As for me, this is the last post on this string. I refuse to do battle with a man so unarmed and with his head firmly planted so far up his posterior. Question......do you keep it there for warmth or out of fear of being discovered for the verbose, loquacious nutjob that you truly are?
Happy Chanukah!
Can you say President Hillary Clinton? You are going to love that, aren't you?
Dug
Note for Soup: Where did I cut and paste, you moron?
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 19, 2005 06:21 PMDugout Nut and Winston are gullible to believe all of the biased lefist propaganda that the Mainstream Media "reports". You don't care about the truth - you just care about your self-centered agendas - screw the right - they want wealth and income redistribution. Hey what about Ted Kennedy and George Soros - two of your socialist buddies have the biggest tax loopholes - they have bank accounts stashed away in Curacao and Fiji. Did you know that ? Probably not, because the MSM would never divulge damning information about two of their icons. So, go ahead - its your turn to try and deny these assertions...
Posted by: KS on December 19, 2005 08:57 PMEmotions are interesting.
Thanks for the effusive display of yours.
Merry Christmas.
I know I said that I would not post again on this thread but......
Thar wern't no 'motions in my last post. Just opinion. Opinion is when you tank sumthin up fer yerself based on infermation avaleable two you. (Written in Red-Neck so you might understand it)
There was no effusive display. You flatter yourself entirely too much. It is not becoming.
Happy Chanukah!
Posted by: DugoutNut on December 20, 2005 06:34 AMYou come to SoundPolitics but you're obviously a liberal, so it isn't to commune with like-minded types. Yet you offer nothing but derision to those who do wish to contribute to the site. Why?
You say "Name calling is another tactic used by Republicans."
Yet virtually every post that you have made has included insults. To what end? You even preemptively called me a moron when I expressed admiration of your cut~n~paste skills (remember "rhetoric n 1: using language effectively to please or persuade 2: high flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation [syn: grandiosity, magniloquence, grandiloquence] 3: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" [syn: palaver, hot air, empty words, empty talk] 4: study of the technique and rules for using language effectively (especially in public speaking).")?
Probably the most unsettling thing is that Mr. Amused has been twisting you up into knots and your responses have been absolutely marionette-like; he points out your submission of "examples" and opinions in place of fact, and you respond with more of the same. He suggests that you are ruled by your emotions and you demonstrate through emotional display that he is entirely correct.
You resort to insulting him for his command of the language (how ironic in a thread about English language-challenged people!).
How does any of this enhance our image? How am I supposed to point to exchanges such as this and say, "See, us democrats are so much more enlightened"? In what way is this effectively communicating our message?
I anxiously await your guidance (that is, unless you truly do intend to stand by your declaration of intent to stop posting here ;'}
Dug posted again because his ego would not let it go.
His silly attempt at bringing me down to his level only acknowledged that he lost the debate. Since dug doesn’t make rational arguments, he never wins debates. Armed only with childish banter, he is utterly disarmed by the shackles of his own motives.
Ego drives all of his “thinking,” and because his emotional opinions of himself serve as his sole master, he knows no distinction between emotions and thoughts. Facts are only obstacles to feeding his fragile self-image by creating the feeeeling for himself that he is winning “battles of personalities.” Dug will say anything to feeeel superior, and he will claim anything (no matter how absurd, senseless, and false) so long as it makes the appearance in his mind of superiority.
Look at the thread. Dug never counter-argued anything, he just changed the subject.
When he got his dumb a$$ kicked, it slighted his pride so he struck back with all he has . . . silly puerile foolishness.
Still, Dug’s production is amusing in its transparent futility.
Thanks for your comments and Merry Christmas.
Posted by: Amused by liberals on December 20, 2005 05:31 PMSince you are intimidated, why not look to yourself and your own arguments. Knowledge is the best substitute for fear.
And by the way nitwit, YES!!! . . . open discourse IS a vital part of what democracy is all about!!!
The preposterously humorous part of your comment is that your pathetic whining and wheedling serves in direct substitution for serious engagement of subject matter, because you are too inept to engage effectively in open discourse.
Go back to sleep chucklehead.
What exactly is the "big deal" about taxes here? As a professional couple in the $200k range, we're paying a grand total of 21% of my income in federal taxes. Another $4.5k between property, and car taxes. When you add in sales tax (deductable from federal), lets be generous, and call my tax burden 30%. Whoop di frickin do. Where the hell is everyone coming up with 50%+ from?
Everyone knows the tax foundation site is a crock. Please don't try to tell me that we have higher taxes than even a typical "red state" like NC (higher property tax, 7% income tax, AND 6% sales tax), higher utility taxes.