December 15, 2005
Where all children are above average
Mrs. Gregoire wants every student to pass the WASL, a worthwhile goal. But her plan for achieving this is to spend millions of dollars on what, it's hard to tell, and also to lower standards to the point where it's impossible for anybody to fail.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at December 15, 2005
11:12 AM | Email This
1. Genius Booth is out front on this too.
Booth of the directive to "prosecute to the maximum extent possible" and if you lose in court, so what?
2. Why not just append the score the individual gets on the WASL to their High School diploma. Those business owners who are of a liberal bent (it doesn't prove any thing and besides as they say it takes time away from "real learning" [like putting condoms on bannanas or other such nonesense]) could just ignore it if they so choose, but those who think that it means something would have it at their disposal.
3. JDH - You just don't understand. If people are allowed to see how the children do on the test, then those poor underpriviledged kids who don't do well will feel badly about themselves and heavens, we can't have that!!
I guess my personal problem is that I figure if teachers were actually teaching kids how to read, and do math there wouldn't be any problem with the kids passing the exam in the first place.
4. It would be better to spend $40 mil on the kids at the top of the list. Unique idea... reward the achievers.
5. I'm with you Jay. One other problem, I tutored math and physics in college. I couldn't believe what they were teaching as math to early childhood education majors, it was ludicrous. My sister's kids all went through Kumon, guess what? The WASL was a joke to them.
6. But it's so haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard.
When are breeding a generation of pantie-wearing woose's who will never be able to compete in the real world. It's disgusting!
7. It is very telling indeed. Back in the mid 1990s, the head of the Dallas ISD held a press conference on the abysmal performance of DISD students on the (then known as) TAAS test. His money quote was that it was the goal to ensure that all students "mastered the test." The goal was NOT to have the students actually learn the material...just get through the test so the DISD could collect on its TEA money.
Unfortunately, it goes on in every state.
8. So...as if another one was needed...a $38 million thank-you from former attorney general Gregoire to the teachers' union.
From the article:
"Students also should have some new ways to pass the math WASL, Gregoire said, such as taking a number of shorter math exams given at different times, or taking the exam in their native language."
How about having a student from one the sister cities in Korea or Japan take the test for the student? That would triple or quadruple the Washington student's score right off the bat.
The native language idea is a real stroke of genius. From the example below, you can see how much easier a math exam is when taken in the native language:
English: 1 + 1 = ?
Spanish: 1 + 1 = ?
9. We should spend an extra $38.5 million to help students who fail? Only the government rewards failure. Let's see, if I keep screwing up at work and fail to do my job assignments, they should raise my salary. That will help me stop failing. If I continue to fail, raise my salary some more. I'm sure more money is the solution. I just don't get paid enough to do an adequate job.
Education is a precious benefit provided by the hardworking taxpayers. It is not a God given right. It costs a lot of money. If you don't come prepared to learn, pay attention in class, and work your tail off to understand and absorb the material, then you should be expelled from the school system. We have too many kids wasting the expensive educational resources. If they aren't serious about getting an education, they shouldn't be at the school taking up space. Schools should not be used as free daycare. I'm sure that if all the kids in school were committed to learning, they would all do just fine on the WASL.
10. PW - Just one addition, in addition to having the students committed to learning you need to have the teachers committed to teaching - not teaching to the test as so many seem to think they need to do - but actually teaching the material! They quit doing that about 40 years ago and we have been going downhill as compared to other countries ever since.
11. I understand this has become a very hot topic in Olympia. Our local rep was saying several large school districts are going to turn on the WASL. There is talk of lawsuits by parents, whose children get A's and B's, but don't pass the WASL. What a mess. I hope they get rid of it. It's disruptive to the whole school and a waste of money.
12. Using the WASL to measure academic achievement is like using a butter knife to do brain surgery. Throwing more money at this terminally flawed test is insane.
Take the WASL off life support, and come up with other ways to test academic achievement and readiness to graduate. How about SAT scores? ACT scores? ITBS? ITED? There are numerous other options, all of them better than the WASL.
13. If we have a test that everyone passes, isn't that by definition a really weak test? It seems logical to me that while there should be efforts to help with a second chance or alternative testing methods, a certain percentage of students SHOULD ultimately fail this test or it isn't a very hard test.
For the small percentage that don't pass the WASL the first time or on one of the many retakes or alternative methods allowed, they should NOT get a diploma. The solution isn't lowering the bar so low that everyone passes. In fact, if they don't get their diploma they can always study for and pass the GED, right?
Some people NEED to fail this test and not get their diploma, or it just isn't a worthwile test any longer.
R
14. This is what really fries me. If you look at homes where parents spend time with their kids, read to them, talk with them ... you will find kids who succeed in school. Instead of throwing money down the rathole that is public education, why not put it toward programs that encourage two-parent households and strengthen families. Get public leaders involved in pushing the message that the traditional family unit is best for children - and that if you can't commit to raising your kids, then don't have them in the first place! How many successful Asian students are coming from single-parent homes? I'd bet you the statistics would be telling!
I am not implying here that single parents don't care about their kids or never produce successful students. But the odds are obviously stacked against any person who has to both support a family and be at home for the kids at the same time.
Seriously, government reinforcement of the idea that marriage and children are a serious commitment is something you don't see. How much of a burden would be taken off of schools and put back where it belongs if public money were spent toward that goal instead?
15. I'm someone who has taken the WASL, before it was required to graduate. It was one of the easiest tests I have ever taken in my life, and I'm not anything out of the ordinary brains-wise. If a student has actually paid attention 1/2 the time in their calsses, they can pass the WASL. I don't see why kids can't pass this test. I also think it would be a bad idea to lower the standards on the test. If teachers teach, if students are willing to learn, and if parents can support their children and their teachers, there is no big problem. But once again, we don't live in an utopia.
16. Here lies the part of the problem, most of the comments speak to what 'parents' should be doing. What they ignore is that many of these kids don't have parents. They were born of a couple of abject failures who did manage to copulate at least once, however they aare not parents any more than one of the dogs that sired one of the litters of pups I have raised over the years is a 'parent.' And, by God, if you think that I am going to start refering to them as such...you are nuts. Guess what if "Dear Old Dad's" spends his evenings sitting around smoking dope while opperating the mouse on his computer with one hand and painting the ceiling with the other, the kids are not going to be passing the WASL. But when parents are parents the WASL isn't going to be a problem. That is why there is such oposition to it it points directly to those who are a failure as a parent.
17. Stohn: My son passed the WASL easily, but he isn't doing so great in school (by that I mean F's and D's with sporadic A's, when he goes into panic mode!) We have pretty much had to pressure him every step of the way since middle school. I'm not sure the test adequately reflects what he has learned. He struggles at some things that I think are pretty basic. We have enrolled him in some online classes, which has helped. Knowing what I do about my own son, I find it difficult to believe that he outperformed the majority of Washington students on this test.
The only conclusion I can arrive at is this: he has always been a logical problem solver. He can reason his way out of a corner - if he has too! His writing is good by his teacher's standards, but I think it could use a lot more work. I would not consider it adequate for entrance into college. His reasoning abilities are intrinsic qualities and not reflective of his knowledge - because the boy doesn't know squat about the algebra he has taken! I believe the test is supposed to measure how much knowledge has been imparted, not how well students can solve puzzles.
I am aware my son is not performing to his "potential". However, he can muster up enough inner resources to pass the WASL. This is kind of scary, given the amount of factual information he has not accumulated.
18. Oh .... how embarrassing! Please change "has too" to "has to". I am turning a very lovely shade of purple!
19. Hey Peggy, have you considered this...he may be bored in school, like I was, and he may be tuning his teachers out, like I did as soon as they started preaching some left-wing horse manure. Back in the 70's I skipped half an entire semester and just showed up to take the tests and ended up on honor roll. once I got into college it caught up with me though and I had to learn how to study and force myself to pay attention.
20. As a taxpayer, I really don't want my state to spend billions on an education system that only graduates about 50% of high school students.
Either the test is flawed or the teaching is flawed. The goal is to teach students so that they can all graduate with a reasonable education. It isn't to punish a student because his parents were divorced. It isn't to graduate only the gifted. Someone needs to look at the methodology of the test and look at the methodology of what is being taught to see if they mutually support each other. It is illogical for students to get A's & B's and fail the WASL.
21. I have always been against these so-called "graduation" tests because I don't think they prove anything about a student's ability to learn or their ability to do college level work. The tests only show what a student knows and can impart on one day only. It might be an off day, the student might feel ill or any number of things can influence the student's grade on the test. Also some good students glitch when taking that type of test, so it hardly measures their abilities or knowledge. Ongoing grades over a period of time is a better indicator of learning.
22. 'Ongoing grades over a period of time is a better indicator of learning.' No they are not, a test is the only reliable way to find out if any learning has taken place or not. As I said a person, ME, was able to skip half of my senior year in High School yet still get on Honor Roll. I diod it by taking dunder head classes, but I paid for it in college. This was in the 70's at the height of liberal influence in the washington Public Education System.
23. Unions don't believe in excellence or encouraging members to be the best, so they do not believe our children should strive for it either.
I'm not sure why the Iowa test (what I took) was cancelled? It tested skills that are needed and was a good indicator of aquired knowledge. There probably were some issues that could have been changed making it better, but moving to WASL isn't an answer. Because our State government is pushing WASL means they do not care about what is best for our children. The only care about making those that can't make the grade, "feel" ok about being dumb or a slacker. Comrades unite!!
Damn Lowest Common Denominator (are there questions about LCD on the WASL?) governing.
24. How can you say that it doesn't prep kids for college level work. College courses are almost all based on exams given at a specific time and almost without exception no chance to retake (unless you retake the course).
And beyond college, one shot at a job interview, one shot at making a sales pitch, etc. Rarely do you get a chance to re-do.
You prep before hand and go for it. If you are prepared you do well.
25. Dengle - In my opinion there are two reasons why WA wants its own exam.
1 - WA can control the grading of the test and change requirements to make everyone pass
2 - Creates more union teacher jobs to write/grade them. (I am making an assumption that teachers are involved in creating the exam)
26. Peggy: I agree with JDH. Grades and tests are two different things which was part of my point. In high school, in this education system, in most classes a very large portion of the grade is "homework." I attend one of the best public schools in the state, and the teachers I have had never actually graded homework, they just made sure the blanks were filled and gave me 100%. I could have filled the paper with random things and still would have gotten a good grade in the class. They did this even though tests and projects actually show if a student is learning or not. There have been classes where I would get no lower than 95% on my tests/essays/projects, yet I only did half my homework because I found it to be worthless b.s.that took up a lot of time, and would get a low B in the class. Whereas I knew people who would get D's on all the tests ect. but do all the homework, and get a higher grade than I, but who learned more?
27. Fred: I agree with you about the college prep piece. Tests are what test a student's knowledge of the material, but now in schools attendence and un-graded homework make up the majority of the grade. Students can be rewarded with a good GPA for simply showing up for class and filling the blank page for homework. But, for those who go on to college, how does that prepare them?
28. Fred: I agree with you about the college prep piece. Tests are what test a student's knowledge of the material, but now in schools attendence and un-graded homework make up the majority of the grade. Students can be rewarded with a good GPA for simply showing up for class and filling the blank page for homework. But, for those who go on to college, how does that prepare them?
29. Nishino,
It prepares them to be union members.
30. Dengle,
So in other words, it prepares them to have someone tell them how to vote. Partially kidding. But, if the union didn't enable students to learn nothing, the WASL would be passed at high rates without having to lower the standard.
31. kudos to Stefan for the witty spoof on Prairie Home Companion in case no one got that or no one listens to NPR anymore.
32. Never forget: A full 50% of the people are below average.
Occasionally, someone wants to argue with me about that. The ones that are to the left of -2 sigma don't even know... If you're wondering where moonbat voters come from, this is the answer...
33. This could easily be construed as lowering the bar so that the stat for the WEA will look better - to the disservice of students and society.
The WEA is another leftist organization that will promote their propaganda so they can promote their progressive/socialist political agenda. Political correctness is paramount in their efforts. Such a waste of $$ and humanity !
34. 1. Whoever said the WASL isn't for high achievers was right. And, they can't take it out of grade level so their WASL scores are mostly mush. Actually, the WASL was NOT developed to assess students but, rather, to assess teachers and schools. It was developed to help them find the best fit between what needs to be taught and how to teach it. Somehow, it morphed into what kids know.
2. ewaggin gave the example of 1+1=2 which is universally understand because math is its own language. However, the math portion of the WASL is more about writing and reading than math and that's probably the real reason the math scores are so abysmal.
3. Superintendent Bergeson said the state is no longer going to use the ITBS to "save" money. That's pretty funny considering the cost of the ITBS is about $3 per student and the cost of the WASL is between $42-72 per student depending on grade level. The cost for 10th graders is probably even higher now because they will start getting their scores in mid-June (in order to have cram classes in early August and retest in Nov. if they fail any part) and we have to pay the test company more to get the scores faster.
4. What many of you seem to not understand (or forget about) is No Child Left Behind. I'm not sure you can use the ITBS for NCLB. If Mr. Bush was really serious about measuring how American schoolchildren do against children around the world, we would have one national test. That would give us some real information. But no, he didn't. And it's not because education is mostly handled at the state and district level. It's because he and his pals have figured out that education is one of the last places to make money. Who's making money on this deal? Educational testing companies. And if, under NCLB, hundreds of schools are labeled as "failing" because they don't meet NCLB's Average Yearly Progress, well then we'll change 'em to charters or use vouchers. All in the name of better education.
35. westello: The thing I don't understand is this: the ITBS has been administered nationwide (I believe) for many years and without much modification to its content. Therefore, it should provide a large amount of data on student performance. The thing that is missing from a test like this is a written portion. This was also once missing from the SAT (again, another test of long standing, though it is claimed they have dumbed it down over time). The SAT now includes an essay section. I don't understand why the state can't just administer an essay test on top of the ITBS. That approach makes the most economic sense to me, and provides an easier transition for students and teachers. And, it has the added benefit of not having to run through several revisions to work out the bugs. The essay test on top of the ITBS could include a couple of science or math related questions. Then, all of the bases would be covered. Does anyone know if the state even bothered to look at this approach?
As a graduation "test", maybe they should just require everyone to take the SAT or ACT. Most colleges require it for admission anyway. And, students can take the PSAT to find out if they are ready for the SAT. They can also take the SAT more than once. I just don't see any sense in throwing out long-standing tests that have served us faily well in the past. In this state, the students who take the SAT are pretty much just those who want to go on to college. It is not a requirement, but perhaps it should be. Currently, it is only used by the students who want to aim a little higher. If we want all students to aim higher, then maybe we should require them to take a test that is a little tougher and is nationally normed.
Apparently this is what they already do in Georgia - so Gregoire really has nothing to gloat about when she points to Washington students' performance on the SAT.
36. In schools today 1+1 no longer necessarily is 2. They would first ask students how they feel about the problem. Then they would try and see how they could apply this to real life situations (if Raul had to give Antoin [always use PC names] 2 dollars, he would put 2 one-dollar bills together to make 2 dollars0. Then they would ask students when in their life they have found this problem useful. They would keep on looking at the theoretical problem rather than solving the problem. This is the downfall of more and more schools switching to Integrated Math rather than sticking to the traditional Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Triginometry, Precalculus, Calculus. I remember taking the SAT last year with mostly people from my school, and when we got to the math section, I didn't use my calculator once (and got a 650 on the math section), while everyone around me used a calculator the entire section. Integrated Math isn't teaching students how to do math, rather it's teaching them how to use a calculator and make sure that they have a spiritual (of their choice) connection.
37. Stohn: Integrated Math isn't my cup of tea, either! I don't think many teachers like it, as it is difficult to present. Have you been to mathematicallycorrect.com? It is one of my favorite sites.
38. We don't use the ITBS in this state anymore because Ms. Bergeson, in her infinite wisdom, declared it unacceptable. I'm still trying to discern the reasoning behind that decision. It would certainly make economic sense to use that as an option. NCLB does not specify WHICH exam(s) should be used to test AYP...just that it be tested. The amount of money ($151 million to date) spent on the WASL since its inception is staggering and sickening. And the kicker? WASL's own technical report states that the test was NOT designed for use to determine grade retention or promotion--see
http://www.k12.wa.us/assessment/TestCoordinators.aspx#techrpt.
Please, do not make the mistake of associating "higher standards" with "WASL."
39. We don't use the ITBS in this state anymore because Ms. Bergeson, in her infinite wisdom, declared it unacceptable. I'm still trying to discern the reasoning behind that decision. It would certainly make economic sense to use that as an option. NCLB does not specify WHICH exam(s) should be used to test AYP...just that it be tested. The amount of money ($151 million to date) spent on the WASL since its inception is staggering and sickening. And the kicker? WASL's own technical report states that the test was NOT designed for use to determine grade retention or promotion--see
http://www.k12.wa.us/assessment/TestCoordinators.aspx#techrpt.
Please, do not make the mistake of associating "higher standards" with "WASL."
40. I am dubious whenever the old knee-jerk liberal "solution" of throwing money at a problem is proposed as a solution. Any rational analysis will show that we already spend a lot on public education. What would be wrong, other than honking off the teacher's union (the lifeblood of the 'Rat party), with assurring that what we're spending now is used to best effect? Logically that would seem to be a first step, ahead of any that would spend more of the taxpayers' money.
I went to public school and although it's been going on 40 years ago, I have to say that back then it was possible for a student to get a decent education if they were willing to do the necessary work. But my impression is that we had things back then that we don't have today, things that don't require throwing more money at the problem. The first was teachers who taught subjects that were fundamental and essential to good academic preparation and learning. That didn't include subjects like how to put condoms on bananas, but, oddly enough, we never felt we lacked any useful knowledge for not having that instruction. Second, and most important, we had discipline in the classroom. Troublemakers got kicked out. And the administrators and school board backed up teachers who enforced discipline. Parents of the day were strict enough with their kids to know to STFU about threatening specious and expensive litigation against the schools and dealt with their children who were troublemakers in school with effective home discipline.
41. You mean just like in New York where the administration touts NCLB as a huge success?
42. http://www.pasd.wednet.edu/school/mathWASL/hsg.htm
I am a recent graduate from college, (insert your WSU jokes here, ha ha very funny, now grow up) and while I can do these problems from the WASL, I don't see how they are required to graduate from high school. They lack relevance to the real world, and if anyone in here has trouble with them, they should re-think their stance.
43. Maybe if they would quit wasting time forbidding the kids from singing christmas songs or forcing the kids to bow down to the altar of 'diversity' and other silly liberal time-wasters, Gregoire wouldn't have to tell them "we've failed you". Duh!
44. I have a solution that won't cost the taxpayers much more than overhead. Make the teachers responsible for their students passing. If less than 80% of thier studens pass the WASL, the teachers have to teach summer school for no additional compensation. Lets demand results and put the teacher's free time on the line. Represenatives of the WTA are encouraged to contact me for the details of my plan, I'll speak slowly and use small words to increase the chance that you'll understand.
45. I think Dan has an interesting answer for the situation. A good teacher knows what his/her students are learning. A poor teacher doesn't care or doesn't know the difference. If their students can't pass exams then they should pay the penalty of having to teach summer school as part of their 12-month pay check. If a teacher knows the subject & teaches it well, the student will pass the WASL or any other test with no trouble at all.