The first of the hearings on the challenged mail box voters was held this afternoon. I was only able to stay for a little while , but I did catch the first part of the hearing on this voter:
![]() | Teri Carpenter (nee Tod Carpenter), who claims residence at the Mail Box & Shipping Center, 16149 NE Redmond Way Box 205, Redmond. |
The P-I's report on the challenge hearing is headlined "Few voters show up to plead case". It's conceivable that not all of the no-shows are real people.
King County Elections was handing out a "fact sheet" titled "Cleaning the Voter Roles". I'll know they're more serious about cleaning the voter rolls when they at least learn how to spell it.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at November 17, 2005 11:13 PM | Email ThisIt's a direct take off from the election challenge of "You didn't prove how all these non-existant voters voted." method.
Posted by: Ryan on November 18, 2005 12:02 AMUmmm... hello... she's registered at a mailbox. What more do the Republicans need in order to show a violation of the law? Who cares what her current address is... at over 6', it's not inside the mailbox she's registered at.
Posted by: Mike H on November 18, 2005 12:11 AMThe Canvassing Board is delaying its decisions on the challenges. They didn’t say what standard they will use but the questioning indicates that it may be impossible to meet. Some of the questions were argumentative. The challenger, Lori Sotelo, was able to find the evident true residence for some of the challenged voters. When she described how an address was obtained she was asked if she had visited those places to verify that the voter actually lived there. Or she was asked how she knew that it was the same person. The democrats are arguing that it is not sufficient to show that a voter can’t possibly maintain an abode in a mailbox – the challenger must provide absolute proof of where the person actually resides. If the Canvassing Board adopts this standard then I expect a rush of new mailbox registrations since Logan argues that he is not obligated to check the validity of residential addresses.
A number of challenged voters submitted their actual addresses prior to the hearings but apparently not in time for the election deadline. One of these voted where I served as provisional ballot judge. His registration address was near Swedish Hospital but he was told to vote on Beacon Hill. I found out tonight the reason – he had submitted a late change of address. It is a mystery why hearings are being held for these voters and Ms. Sotelo has to go through the wringer when the voters have already admitted that there registrations were improper.
According to King County, 126 voters changed their addresses before the challenges were filed, 116 changed their addresses before the election deadline, 76 were duplicates, and 140 had been withdrawn before the election. That left 1400+ challenged voters. Of these, only 216 have been identified as actually voting. That’s a turnout of about 15% for this category of voter while the overall King County turnout was close to 50%. Despite all the cries that the republicans are disenfranchising voters it appears that most disenfranchised themselves (if they existed at all).
Posted by: Bob Edelman on November 18, 2005 01:20 AMI don't see that it's a mystery at all. Ms. Sotelo is being used to send a message...we run things, and you'd better not forget it.
I suppose it's time to get to work on making Logan's position elected. That may be the only way to remove one of the most aggressively stupid "public servants" it's been my misfortune to pay salary to.
I hope the "euthanized" post is a fake one. While I personally don't know any one that is a "she-man," as you call them, that kind of comment is out of line. The GOP doesn't advocate the euthanizing of Far Lefties and that is a much bigger societal problem than being confused about your gender.
If we're going to show that the GOP is really the "big tent" party that puts ideas ahead of ideology, these kinds of comments have to stop.
Posted by: Mark on November 18, 2005 06:21 AMIf this challenge fails, I think it's time for conservatives and Republicans from heavily Republican districts around the state to start registering in King County so we can interfere in their elections.
I mean, you may say that we shouldn't break the law just because Democrats and their scumbag lawyers break the law, and this is true. But if this challenge fails, it means that the legal requirement to register where one actually lives no longer exists. The law has to be the same for everyone, and if Democrats are allowed to do something, then it is permissible for Republicans as well.
Tacoma Phlash: If the clerk merely meant that you should fill out a registration form to change your *mailing* address, that's OK. You can get your mail wherever you want, as long as your physical address is where you actually live.
Posted by: ScottM on November 18, 2005 06:59 AMIf you are going to "pose" as stefan, at least use the real Stefan's Email Address.
Get a life, and grow up!!!!
Posted by: Chris on November 18, 2005 06:59 AMWe are faced with the law of unintended (to be generous) consequences.
I would think that the first criteria in assessing a challenge to a voter registration is that it is a legal registration to begin with.
If the residence address was in fact a valid living place, then I can see (partly) the need to prove where they do live.
Per the law, for "nontraditional" addresses, their adobe address should be a government building, not a private mailbox.
Ms Carpenters "residence" is in Redmond, but by her testimony, her "abode" is actually out in Carnation. This would have an effect on which ballot she was given, which is the basis for the residence law.
King County has become the test case to see what hope the PEOPLE have of getting clean, legal voting ROLLS. If we can't clean up King County......
Posted by: SouthernRoots on November 18, 2005 07:18 AMAt the same time, I could still vote in Lewis County, because KC Elections will not "Check" my registration for accuracy. I can Disenfranchise Myself LOL !!!!!
I say let the registrations begin!!!!!!!
Posted by: Chris on November 18, 2005 07:29 AM"The elections office screens and sets aside registrations with addresses that use "P.O. Box" or "PMB" but doesn't examine street addresses voters provide to make certain they are residences. It used to, but Logan has said he ended the practice because "I was uncomfortable with the arbitrary nature of that and our authority to do it.""
Logan is uncomfortable with the arbitrary nature of it?!!? But he's perfectly comfortable with ever-changing standards for judging voter intent?!!?
This is getting to be surreal!!!!
Posted by: Scott in Carnation on November 18, 2005 07:49 AMYou would be amazed at what is public information. Ever check out the the parcel viewer and iMap on the King County website? Do some digging there and then come tell me you're concerned about people's privacy when it comes to their voter registration information..........
Posted by: Scott in Carnation on November 18, 2005 07:56 AMIs that a five o'clock shadow 'she' has got under her make-up? Or something like that
Posted by: JDH on November 18, 2005 08:19 AMFormer special prosecutor Ken Starr may have bailed on the Beltway for the sun and surf of Malibu, where he's dean of the Pepperdine law school . . . but he left his electoral heart in the Old Dominion.
Starr showed up with his wife at a Fairfax County polling site Sunday to vote early as an absentee but was turned away when his name was not found on the rolls. Officials say the former Bill Clinton nemesis lost his Virginia registration by responding affirmatively to a change-of-address query earlier this year. Records show that Starr has not yet registered to vote in California, more than a year after moving there.
Posted by: Steven Donegal on November 18, 2005 08:51 AMThis is probably a stretch, but giving the PO the benefit of the doubt...
He is a fed employee and may not know the WA election laws. Also, saying to fill out a voter registration could be the mailing address portion, not the place of residence - given you just got a new mailing address.
I find it curious that the fed employees would even be involved in pushing voter registration.
Posted by: fred on November 18, 2005 09:30 AMEvery page of publicity for this is another nail in the coffin of the state Republican party. So, chortle away, if you must, as the Republican base continues to dwindle. The Republicans will be left with a hard core group of supporters that cannot elect anyone, and people of substance will think twice before running under its banner or giving to its candidates.
Congratulations.
Posted by: Swifter on November 18, 2005 09:33 AMLegitimate cleaning up the voting process needs to allow for correction of errors, as well as purging of errors. Both exist. Try to stay focused on that, not gender issues, which have no legitimate place in this discussion.
Posted by: duhh on November 18, 2005 09:48 AMIf I follow your logic - the more corrupt the Ds are shown to be, the more support they will get. This will make people run from the people that are factually showing the corruption? Is that the gist of it?
You sure seem to have a loww opinion of the electorate here - which may or may not be warranted.
Posted by: fred on November 18, 2005 09:48 AMThis is not unlike the libs or the Seattle Press to not discuss how many of these names are found to be registered illegally, they would rather focus on the other side of the argument.
The Republicans should just make up a home address for all these PO box dwellers, then. Why not, if they're imaginary people? Here's one they can use:
11 Apollo Landing
Moonbat Colony, Luna
While I won't be contributing financially, I wouldn't mind seeing one of your brochures!
So, you're saying you are a closet fan of "she-men?"
I hope this was a fake "Cynical" post. Why would you attack me? I have no interest in either promoting or discouraging a "she-man" wing of the GOP. I'm just saying it is stupid to kick out an otherwise supportive Republican just because they prefer skirts to pants. What is your feeling on Scotish Republicans in kilts?
Posted by: Mark on November 18, 2005 10:20 AMTo read the accounts of wrongly accused voters is the opposite of what our founding fathers, and our heroic republican leaders over time, have set out for us.
Stefan...with your intent on honest and fair elections (correct!), I expect you to call it as it is.
Please help restore integrity to the project and effort by calling upon our local leaders who have erred to admit it and move on.
Posted by: Kip German on November 18, 2005 10:23 AMDirectly accuse the voter of violations of the law.
That is _NOT_ the same as 'challenging the voter', the challenge is to remove them from the rolls. (Or get their information updated apparently).
Posted by: Al on November 18, 2005 10:23 AMDemocrat lawyers, don't ya just want to strangle them? Burden of proof should be on the voter to prove residency. If my registration was challenged, I would be happy to prove residency and citizenship...but to have lawyers or investigators snooping around looking for me...ick! Smells like big brother and black helicopters.
Posted by: dl on November 18, 2005 10:34 AMWhile her registration was illegal, she is a voter and took the time to defend her vote.
That is as commendable as Stefan's crusade to get elections cleaned up.
I wish the rest of the state took their right to vote as seriously.
Posted by: Andy on November 18, 2005 11:02 AMThe Republicans might have been better off sending notices directly to all the mailing and "residential" addresses on their list informing those voters of their impending challenge; 1) to allow the oblivious ones to correct their registrations, and 2) to show critics that they gave the malicious ones a chance to show their faces.
Posted by: starboardhelm on November 18, 2005 11:03 AMTeri Carpenter of Carnation addresses GOP lawyers challenging her right to vote during a King County elections canvassing board hearing in Seattle Thursday.
Nobody's challenging her frigging right to vote. The GOP is challenging her registration. Can't those dishonest liars at the PI do even rudimentary fact checking? Oh, wait...
Of the 1400 or so left on this list), how many of the letters were returned as undeliverable?
What has happened to the voter registrations of the 7302 ballots that were returned by USPS as undeliverable in the Sept. primary? Have they been placed inactive or cancelled? Is there any overlap between those and this list of 1400?
Dean Logan insists that he must take registrations at "face value" - if they look complete.
However, there is language in the law that seems to be against this approach:
" RCW 29A.08.110
Auditor's procedure. (Effective until January 1, 2006.)
(1) On receipt of an application for voter registration under this chapter, the county auditor shall review the application to determine whether the information supplied is complete. An application that contains the applicant's name, complete valid residence address,, date of birth, and signature attesting to the truth of the information provided on the application is complete."
Why would the legislature add "complete valid" before residence address if they did not intend for the auditor to confirm the addresses as valid?
It was alleged last year that a guide put out by King County told some people exactly how they could get away with illegal voting (provisional ballots into the Accuvotes).
In this fact sheet, they appear to do it again - when you register at a mail box, DO NOT put PO Box or PMB on your registration card, these are apparently the only flags KCE uses to determine if the address is residential or not.
How can we get Stefan elected? He'd clean this stuff up! Actually, would you run? You have the right attitude...the one desperately needed. Would you run? Let's get the bums out and the good guys in!
Posted by: Kip German on November 18, 2005 11:40 AMI am so sick of stupid Republican tactics which allow the party of corruption to gain a foothold and marginalize the truth. Not only do Ron Sims and Dean Logan need to go, but Chris Vance needs to go, too. His leadership (?) has too many critical errors to be further endorsed. Time for a change there, too.
Posted by: duhh on November 18, 2005 11:52 AM"5) I don't care if Teri or Tod Carpenter is a she male or transvestite. She/he needs to be properly registered where she/he lives."
The pertinent point.
Posted by: TF on November 18, 2005 11:54 AMHow many government employees are necessary to ensure 100% clean and accurate voter rolls?
This is kind of an irrelevant question. It would be foolish to assume that we could ever have 100% clean and accurate voter rolls. Probably not even 99.98% or even 99.8%. However, KCE's own flyer says 18,000 duplicate registrations were merged (presumably, that means 18,000 duplicated registrations were removed) and that 8,900 deceased voters were removed and that 73,000 inactive voters were put on inactive status. That adds up to just shy of 100,000 improperly registered voters, and presumably 67,000 improperly mailed absentee ballots. There are about a million voters in King County. Nearly 10% of those voters were dubious. How many employees does it take to do better than 90%?
Posted by: huckleberry on November 18, 2005 01:44 PMNO I DID NOT GET THE P.O. BOX.
Posted by: TACOMA PHLASH on November 18, 2005 02:36 PMChallenges to voters! PAH!
It doesn't matter a hill a of beans with out real election reform.
The voters of KC spoke, reelected Sims, and rubber stamped Logan's running of KCE. 54% of those who voted like living knee deep in ......
KC Republicans get some illegal voters kick off the rolls. SO WHAT! To get back they register at two more times at mail boxes under three names and four genders. Then get three friends to do the same.
KC Republicans are into street theatrics.
WHO HOOO! Look at us we are doing something to reform the elections process.
BULL PUCKEY gag
Real meaningful election reform starts with:
Purge the voter rolls. Throw the whole thing out, tabla rossa.
Everyone registers, prince or pauper, everyone re-registers. If they don't like it they don't value their franchise so &%$# them.
THE LAW will be followed, citizenship, residency, no exceptions.
King Co. Assessor has all the GIS info for the county, lots, addresses, buildings the whole shebang. Cross deck data to KCE and verify addresses. Bad address send the registrant a notice with a deadline if they don't respond, drop the registration.
It's not rocket science. It's a database with 2 million records and 2 dozen fields to each record. As databases go it's a trivial little database.
Election reform starts with clean registration roles.
Right now everyone claiming they can make silk purses out of sows' ears.
KC Republicans need to stand up for real election reform. Challenging these voters is worrying about a ding in the paint when the engine is seized.
Posted by: JCM on November 18, 2005 03:08 PMThe laws are there to protect our vote from theft.
There's a guy who laughs at my attempts to play golf. He watches me toss my ball out of a muddy ditch, or out of a sandtrap that I've dug a foxhole in, and says, "I don't know *what* game you're playing, but it sure ain't golf."
The rules define the game.
Posted by: starboardhelm on November 18, 2005 03:51 PMSo, would it be all right for thousands of people who oppose your favorite candidate to ride in from out of town or even from out of state on the day of the election and cast just one ballot apiece against your guy?
I think you wouldn't like that idea. Neither did the people who adopted our state's constitution, which requires residence in the "state, county and precinct" for at least 30 days before the election, and requires the legislature to enact laws setting up a registration system--and compliance with that system before one is eligible to cast a ballot. See Article VI, sections 1 and 7.
The challenges made by the GOP are intended to overcome Logan's refusal to comply with the registration laws. Ironically, what the Dems claim has a grain of truth to it: The challenge statute focuses on people who "no longer" maintain a residence where they were registered to vote; but most of the challenged people never did have a residence at the address they gave. Logan was required by law to reject applications to register which didn't state the "complete valid residence address." He refused to try to determine whether the addresses could be "valid," and here we are -- going through this drill to try to clean up the mess Logan and these would-be voters made.
Posted by: Micajah on November 18, 2005 04:17 PMKarl Rove should go to prison.
GWB should be impeached.
And Logan is 'da man wid the good home schoolin' who bring home 'da votes.
If he couldn't copy and paste from moveon or horses patioo he couldn't post.
Posted by: JCM on November 18, 2005 04:28 PMThere will always be requirements beyond citizenship to allow one to cast a ballot. By your logic, I should be allowed to vote in your elections, even though I am 2500 miles away. I am a "citizen", so I should be allowed to vote. Send me a ballot and sign me up for a mailbox. I guess my underage child should also be allowed to vote. He's a citizen, too. Send me an extra ballot for him while you're at it. And don't none of you 'Rats try to stop me, because I'm a citizen, and I should be allowed to vote, without any of you 'Rats making it more difficult.
Posted by: Interested Observer on November 18, 2005 05:02 PMYou are missing the point. The citizenship-only criterion applies only if you are voting for Democrats. Supporters of all other parties need to satisfy the other voter qualifications.
Who want a Republican voting in Seattle, anyway. It just sounds stupid, don't it?!
Posted by: huckleberry on November 18, 2005 06:16 PMFirst, Stefan, if you want to make fun of syntax, the proper term would be "ne," not "nee."
More importantly, your crudely winking frat boy post ("Ms. Carpenter, who appears to be a good 6' tall...") and the equally crass responses of Cynical and JDH underscore your real motives. This is clearly more about voter intimidation and supression than your disingenuous claims of "fraud."
At the hearing the GOP attorney pointedly and repeatedly alluded to personal matters about Ms. Carpenter which were utterly immaterial to the factual questions being considered at the hearing. Stefan amplifies the injury with his leering insinuations.
Do politics always trump decency? Do you have no consideration for privacy or personal dignity? How many people are you willing to drag, and through how deep of mud, to "clean up" the voting rolls? According to your lights it appears that the homeless or otherwise itinerant, crime victims seeking anonymity, sailors who lack a permanent abode and many others should be disenfranchised.
The only parallel I can think for such a monomaniacal crusade in recent history (setting aside Joe McCarthy) is Kenneth Starr, who spent tens of millions of dollars to get -- what? The fact that GWB's approval ratings are lower than Clinton's at the height of impeachment should tell you something: Dirty tricks work for only so long, as McCarthy, Nixon, and the rest of the GOP rogues' gallery belatedly learned.
One is reminded of a sad ass schoolyard bully. I hope you enjoy wielding your flaccid taunts over us lesser souls who lack the delicate skills of SPEAKING IN CAPITAL LETTERS and EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
Is this the verbal equivalent of driving a Hummer to make up for one's more personal, shall we say, insufficiencies?
Posted by: bartelby on November 18, 2005 09:25 PMOn the other side, there is no excuse for sloppiness in elections, but the Repubs better get signed affadavits if they want these charges they are pressing to stick otherwise they may well come off looking foolish again. Remember Judge Bridges ?
Posted by: KS on November 18, 2005 10:13 PMThe techniques displayed in the GOP's voter challenges are eerily similar to tactics used in the Jim Crow era and beyond. In fairness, the GOP does not historically have a monopoly on such shenanigans. They were perfected by racist Southern Democrats. But just as the Republicans are no longer the party of Lincoln, redneck "Dixiecrats" like Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms moved from the D to the R column decades ago, and sadly dragged an ample bag of dirty tricks along.
The reason these techniques work (and therefore get repeated) is that they work under the radar. They target non-sexy populations with little voice and involve rather abstruse technical challenges.
In fairness, I should say that SS's work to promote transparency and accountability on the part of King County and other election officials is admirable and worthwhile. KCRE obviously has many problems, and as with any government agency, the more oversight they get the better.
The GOP's current challenges, however, are clearly a meat cleaver approach to problems more
suited to a scalpel.
The good news is found in the wisdom of the electorate. Like Newtie's feckless efforts to impeach Bill Clinton and the GOP's costly, disastrous and humiliating efforts to challenge the 2004 election, I trust that truth and justice will out yet again.
Posted by: bartelby on November 18, 2005 10:21 PM
I don't believe I am "pertually [sic] offended" by disagreement; quite the contrary. I quite relish genuine intellectual debate, as opposed to slinging insults, in capital letters or otherwise. If you have a coherent thought to contribute, please do so. Thanks for sharing!
Posted by: bartelby on November 18, 2005 10:37 PMComment by bartelby— 9/18/05 @ 12:05 am"
Hard to take your lecture on ethics very seriously when you hurl RACIST allegations at the drop of a hat.
Go ahead & play your pompous little "I'm so Civil" game....no one here buys it ya CLOWN!
Funny you should mention McCarthy....
The Democrats of today, with their serious socialist and communist leanings, are proving that McCarthy was truly on to something! He must be turning in his grave knowing that the communists have infiltrated a major political party.....
How ironic that a liberal democrat troll mention McCarthy....! Is he haunting you?
Posted by: Deborah on November 20, 2005 12:56 AMNo, those aren't allegations; I'm merely citing history. Here's just a sample from an article in today's P-I:
"Partisan efforts to limit voter participation are an established feature of the American political landscape. And they are not the exclusive province of any one party: It was white Democrats who spearheaded the systematic exclusion of black Southerners from the polls for most of the century after the Civil War, employing techniques that ranged from literacy tests to murder. The reaction to those practices produced the federal Voting Rights Act in 1965.
"But in the past 40 years, Republican attempts to disenfranchise voters have generated the lion's share of controversy. Generally called "ballot security" programs, they have involved confrontations with voters at the polls on election day, uniformed guards at polling places, posters warning of the criminal penalties for illegal voting and challenges to voter registrations.
"Ironically, in light of Southern political history up to the 1960s, the GOP voter purges have been criticized for zeroing in on black voters and other minorities, a constituency that has proved solidly Democratic since Republicans reversed the racial dynamic of politics in the '60s by their courtship of Southern white voters.
"A GOP ballot-security program in 1981 in New Jersey prompted a federal lawsuit by the Democrats, who claimed harassment of black and Hispanic voters violated the U.S. Constitution and the Voting Rights Act. The result was a consent decree in which the Republican National Committee agreed not to target districts with large minority populations in any efforts that might discourage eligible voters.
"That decree was modified after the 1986 U.S. Senate race in Louisiana, in which the Republicans mailed non-forwardable letters to 350,000 voters in districts that voted at least 75 percent Democratic in the 1984 presidential election -- which in practice meant predominantly black districts. When 30,000 of the letters came back, the GOP moved to challenge the affected registrations based on unreported changes of address.
"Voters sued to stop the purges, and the legal wrangling turned up a memo from an RNC staffer expressing optimism that the ballot security program "could keep the black vote down considerably." The disclosure galvanized black voters, and the Democrat won the election. In the 1986 modification to the federal consent decree, the RNC forswore future use of direct-mail address-change strategies."
Posted by: bartelby on November 21, 2005 12:23 PMIrrespective of the source, the lawsuits and the consent decree are a matter of public record. Can you deny or refute this?
Posted by: bartelby on November 22, 2005 06:44 PM