Yet another illustratration of the rules the King County Canvassing Board uses to determine "voter intent" on the ballots that it examines.
| Last Thursday's rule: when a voter has a lightly colored oval for YES and a darkly colored oval for NO, it is a NO vote |  |
| Yesterday's rule: when a voter has a lightly colored oval for YES and a darkly colored oval for NO, it is an overvote. |  |
| New rule tomorrow | |
More illustrations of "voter intent", here
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at November 16, 2005 10:10 PM | Email ThisIf you believed the advertisements from the S.O.S.'s office regarding scewed up ballots not counting, one would again think that ballot is void. At least the race the vote was doublely cast on should be.
Common sense should prevail but I suppose in the land of Oz,Devinging Dean is the Wiz.
Posted by: Jim L on November 17, 2005 12:18 AMOh I forgot. Ron Sims won.
Congrats Seattle, the corruption continues.
Posted by: karl on November 17, 2005 01:36 AMNow for the post. The rules were changed this time because the election wasn't close. You can bet your bottom dollar that next time Gregoire is up, the canvassing board will revert back to 'voter intent' favorable to Gregoire.
Posted by: swatter on November 17, 2005 07:05 AMOh, look--somebody with a sophomoric sense of humor is pretending to be Stefan again. In the immortal words of Nelson the troll: Y*A*W*N.
On topic:
Maybe it's not fraud--maybe it's not stupidity--I guess the inconsistency is sheer chutzpah, or hubris, or (in plain English) overconfidence and pride in their ability to discern what a voter really meant.
Oh, wait--maybe by doing it differently each time, they're trying to be democratic, and give a vote to each side and even things out...yeah, that's it!
Posted by: pseudotsuga on November 17, 2005 07:08 AM
The computer can only accept one vote. Design it to allow you to review/change/modify your votes before final submission.
Either that or run a whole bunch of commercials on how to vote properly - like they did with the "changes" this year.
People who don't have the common sence to read simple directions and vote properly should not be choosing our leaders!
Posted by: Eric on November 17, 2005 07:17 AMComputer voting is the WORST possible alternative.
There is only the electronic record of the voters vote. That can be altered with ZERO traces. Imagine a software hack that every 10 votes for a candidate changes a vote 30 voters before the current voter.
With a hard record of the voter's selection, there is no way to go back and review an election. If the recording software is corrupt the data is corrupted.
About the only why for computer voter to work would be:
The voter votes at a computer terminal.
A ballot is printed.
The voter reviews his ballot and accepts or rejects the printed ballot.
The vote is tallied at the voting terminal.
The ballot is then feed into a second completely s computer which has a different operating system with a different software program and is in no way connect to the voting terminal, call this the verification terminal.
The verification terminal would store read ballots.
The printed and verified paper ballot would be retained and consider the voters official ballot.
At the end of the day the vote terminal and the verification terminal would be compared manually. No digital checksums, the vote terminal prints or displays its totals and the verification terminal would display its totals.
If they were in complete, 100% agreement then the totals from that vote terminal would be accepted.
If there was even one bit difference the paper ballots would be read by a 3rd recount machine with a different OS and software system.
If the recount machine agree with either the vote terminal or verification terminal that total would be used. The miscount machine would be taken out of service for re-calibration.
If all three machine disagreed a hand recount of those printed ballots would be necessary.
It would be too easy to fiddle with the software on one machine. Different OS and software package would be necessary to prevent a single hack from compromising the whole system.
Once a vote is converted to digital format it would impossible to go back and look at the voters actual vote. You only have the machines' version of the vote.
A bullet proof electronic system would be very expensive, an complicated. The voters can't consistently fill out a paper ballot, how can we expect them to vote, verify and post.
Posted by: JCM on November 17, 2005 07:42 AMHow many ballots is the canvassing board reviewing?
Posted by: SouthernRoots on November 17, 2005 07:44 AMWhat do they do with an overvote? Do they not count that person's vote on that issue? Or do they count both marks (both yes and no on a two position issue) for that person's vote? Posted by: gordon on November 17, 2005 07:57 AM
I think his point is that when you "divine intent" it is like Professor Trelawney's Class of Divinity at Hogwarts. One day the tea leaves are interpreted one way and another day another. The Professor (Canvassing Board) sees it one way while Weasley and Potter (us) can't figure out how she (they) came up with the interpretation.
Posted by: swatter on November 17, 2005 08:06 AMThe punch line is that the Democrats there have no desire to fix the issue, which is consistent withe the Wa State DNC's defense of illegal voters.
From todays PI
Posted by: dave on November 17, 2005 08:43 AMI'd say that's the trend, and I'd also say it's irreversible.
Eric also goes on to say "People who don't have the common sence (sic) to read simple directions and vote properly should not be choosing our leaders!"
My reply: George W. Bush. Worst president ever. Even Rick Santorum (Rick Santorum!) doesn't want to be seen with him anymore.
And finally, Karl asks: "Would someone please explain why the media isnt covering this, and why no one seems to care how bad it is?"
Did it ever occur to Karl, or most of the rest of you, that every other county in every other state has the same stuff go on? But no. All we hear from Stefan is KING COUNTY CORRUPT. KING COUNTY CORRUPT. KING COUNTY CORRUPT.
The Republican Attorney General and the Republican U.S. Attorney won't touch this with a 10-foot pole, because they know there's nothing going on in King County that isn't going on everywhere else, and that King County isn't necessarily any better or any worse than anywhere else.
Is King County Elections perfect? Hell, no. Are there practices that need to be cleaned up? Hell, yes. But you could say that about anyplace.
And you know what? Last time I checked, there were Republicans on the King County Canvassing Board. If KCE is so crooked, why haven't THEY "blown the whistle?"
Because error is not necessarily fraud. Just because Stefan repeats it over and over and over again does not make it so. Just because some of you accept it on faith does not make it so.
Tell it to a judge, like you did last time. We have seen how that worked out for you.
Posted by: Ivan on November 17, 2005 08:53 AMThanks Dave. This actually enables the intellectually curious on this blogsite to perform an experiment. KUOW is, of course, a totally unbiased and absolutely balanced news source, endlessly pursuing the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. Don't believe me? Let's put the station to the test.
Those who can participate, please call KUOW at their call-in number (usually 543-9595, though their web page doesn't provide it - you might listen and see if there's another number they're using). Pose your must penetrating question for Ron Sims to the 'screener'.
Then post your question and KUOW's response to it back on Sound Politics.
Posted by: Hank Bradley on November 17, 2005 09:25 AMHave you read the title of this site? The Sound in the name refers to the Puget Sound, which King County is by far the largest county on the Sound. Therefore, to keep in context, the topics are politics in the Puget Sound area.
Your other logic is just wonderful too. Corruption is no worse than anywhere else, so what is the big deal? Firstly, what is the evidence that it is just as bad as everywhere else, and secondly is that the sadly low standard you measure our politicians by?
If the police said to you after you reported a break-in to your home would you accept the answer "The crime rate in our city is about the same as other cities our size, so we are not going to do anything about it. Have a nice day." Of course you wouldn't, so why should we accept that absurd standard for a basic right of our country?
Posted by: fred on November 17, 2005 09:26 AMI'm not saying that's for sure why that one was allowed to count and the other wasn't but it sure brings up an interesting possibility!
That's why voter intent should never be "interpreted" unless by absolute and consistent standards applied the same EVERY Time!
Posted by: scotto51 on November 17, 2005 09:56 AMAnswer one question. Is King County inconsistent and flawed?
If the answer is yes, then ask "why aren't they fixing it?"
I dont honestly care about the other counties, because I, live here.
I have a personal interest in what happens here because this is my elected representatives,a nd they are making my ability to participate in the election process a friggin joke.
I say corruption because it is so commonplace, and so institutionally ignored.
Posted by: karl on November 17, 2005 10:17 AMQuestions grow tiresome when answers are not forthcoming.
Posted by: huckleberry on November 17, 2005 10:27 AMThink about what you are saying. We have thousands of people who cannot follow simple directions to perform a simple process to darken the bubbles of a paper ballot. And what solution do you propose? That's right, you will sit these cretin's down at a computer to generate a digital ballot. Sounds like a winner to me.
Seriously, we have a very good system if the people who administered the system took there responsibilities seriously. No amount of technology or automation will compensate for that weakness.
No to computerized voting.
No to voting by mail.
Yes to distributing tallying authority to the polling places.
Here is one clue about Dan and Norm. It is a meeting of the King County Bar Association from about a year ago. Dan's presentation is near the bottom, where it probably belongs. Let me quote...
In 1994, King County started its drug court which allows for treatment of drug offenders and the dismissal of their criminal offense if they are successful at completing this program. Over the years we have expanded eligibility for drug court. Dan pointed out that treatment has an important role in our system and needs to be institutionalized. In addition, in 2002, a criminal justice tax account was specifically earmarked for the funding of treatment courts and drug sentences have been significantly reduced. Norm Maleng and the King County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office helped effectuate the lower sentencing ranges for drug offenders here in Washington State and has looked at ways for treatment and the court system to work hand in hand.
Dan and Norm seem to be a part of the oh so trendy Seattle crowd that wants to decriminalize drug abuse. Mainstream Republicans?
Posted by: huckleberry on November 17, 2005 10:59 AM"... in the recent election, Spokane County voted, with a 60 percent majority, to go all-mail.
I'd say that's the trend, and I'd also say it's irreversible."
But you seem to want to give up, feeling that it is irreversible. Is it?
"Eric also goes on to say "People who don't have the common sence (sic) to read simple directions and vote properly should not be choosing our leaders!"
My reply: George W. Bush. Worst president ever. Even Rick Santorum (Rick Santorum!) doesn't want to be seen with him anymore."
Sorry, Ivan, the logic doesn't make sense. You seem to be arguing that Bush was elected by people who couldn't read simple directions or vote "properly". Is this an attempt at humor, or logic?
As for the "worst president ever" slogan-- you probably just "feel" he is that way. Or can you do a line by line comparison with ALL the other US presidents and show that he is substantially worse than any other presidents?
"Did it ever occur to Karl, or most of the rest of you, that every other county in every other state has the same stuff go on? But no. All we hear from Stefan is KING COUNTY CORRUPT. KING COUNTY CORRUPT. KING COUNTY CORRUPT....Is King County Elections perfect? Hell, no. Are there practices that need to be cleaned up? Hell, yes. But you could say that about anyplace."
You're trying to change the subject--we don't care what Tualatin County (OR), or Orange County (CA) is doing. The point of this blog is, as you seem to forget, "SOUND POLITICS." Why that focus, you ask? Well, because little ol' King County gets to dictate what is what in Washington state, due to sheer force of numbers...and what seems to be incompetence or inconsistency in ballot counting. Even if you don't accept the "corruption" argument, why are you willing to allow the lack of standards for accurate vote counting?
Surely you wouldn't allow racism to happen here just because it happens everyplace else, would you? If a thing is wrong, it's wrong everywhere--even in King County.
How would you interpret the pictures Stefan shows, rather than just changing the subject to Rove, or Libby, or Bush McChimpHitler?
"Because error is not necessarily fraud. Just because Stefan repeats it over and over and over again does not make it so. Just because some of you accept it on faith does not make it so."
So, it's not necessarily deliberate fraud. You might be surprised by how many people here actually agree with you. That's fine--but are you willing to let the practice continue, or would you rather see it cleaned up?
Why would you have any confidence in these elections if they are so arbitrary in discerning intent, counting votes, counting military votes, and letting people who are not able to vote do so? Oh, but I guess if they favor the people you like, it's all just fine. That's a silly argument, Ivan.
"Tell it to a judge, like you did last time. We have seen how that worked out for you."
Perhaps you were absent for months, while that was discussed. You may have missed the part where the Judge himself agreed (yes, AGREED) that there were problems, and errors, and so on, that made the election barely useful at all in deciding who won. He didn't conclude that the evidence shown demonstrated fraud. Does that mean that there was no fraud? He did conclude that the evidence shown showed a completely messed up election.
So, do you agree with the judge, or not?
There is no doubt that the huge amount of subjectivity in our system influenced the outcome of the 2004 gubernatorial race. We played a game of musical chairs, and after the music stopped, Gregoire was in a chair.
We should all be ashamed that subjectivity influenced the outcome of what should be an objective determination. We could understand that the limits of our system created an untenable situation in the 2004 election that left us with no good solution other than to accept the third count.
But what is so galling, wholly unnaceptable, and worth fighting for is the Democrats refusal to support attempts to correct the subjectivity that lead to the problems in 2004.
That's why Stefan is a hero and while he will continue to receive stong support. The system is not fixed until almost all of the subjectivity is removed, and there is an objective way to handle ultra close races such as an automatic run-off or otherwise.
You will know the Democrats are contributing to the solution when they stop defending the status quo.
Posted by: Jeff B. on November 17, 2005 11:42 AMNow, in typical democRat fashion, you're trying to rewrite history, and claim that Judge Bridges found no evidence of fraud.
Sorry, no sale.
Judge Bridges ruled only that there was no sign of fraud in the evidence presented. He never saw the material that Logan and Sims wanted to keep hidden.
Sorry, but the truth is not in you.
Posted by: ewaggin on November 17, 2005 12:54 PMLet's get the ball rolling!
Posted by: starboardhelm on November 17, 2005 02:01 PMRight. I'm a spineless dumb ass. I hope you feel better. Present your damn evidence, then, just like you did last time. All the king's horses and all the king's men and all the incompetent Davis Wright Tremaine lawyers will get you the same three words:
Dismissed, with prejudice.
They you can talk about how the whole system is rigged, and everybody in the state is crooked, crooked, crooked, except for you and your little clique.
It has gone beyond partisanship around here. It is nothing less than classic cult behavior.
Everybody's against us. Only Stefan and his followers see the light,and anyone who disagrees with us is evil, evil, evil.
What's next, guys? The compound, the food, the guns? Hey, go for it. Meanwhile, the rest of us live our lives, go to work, play with our kids, rake our leaves and mow our lawns, and help make Martin Luther King County a better place.
Posted by: Ivan on November 17, 2005 04:18 PMThere is solid evidence that our elections are rigged (by way of fraud) for an outcome that benefits the Democrats.
Norm Maleng won't launch an investigation.
Rob McKenna won't investigate or refer it to the Feds.
Clinton appointed - US Attorney, John McKay,won't launch an investigation.
This country is made up of both parties - yet the conservative's are being robbed and held hostage in this state by the liberal Democrats.....Where is our Federal Government? Where is our Republican congressional majority? I'm ok with making an exception to Posse Comitatus if it would help clean up this state! I'm sure our fine men and women in the military are just itching to deal with these treasonous and corrupt communist Democrats, media, illegal immigrants,etc.! It's because of the liberals - that so many of our soldiers have been killed in this war. And those who are not killed have had to listen to the propaganda that spews from the Democrats and media...
I say..OK already!! - bring home our soldiers! Let them loose on the liberal society! Can you imagine how many jobs would become available? Government jobs, union, education!
What else can we do?
Do yourself and the rest of us a favor, and check yourself into Western State before you hurt somebody, OK?
Posted by: Ivan on November 17, 2005 07:11 PMWhen the books of the King County Elections office are totally open to post election inspection (along with all of the rest of the State), when the counties take action to clean the rolls, when the canvassing boards have defined written procedures for discerning voter intent, and when there exists valid processes for ensuring all of the above to include fixing the problems found then I will believe that my vote actually counts.
Ivan, you would do well to join the bandwagon to ensure your vote is also not being disenfranchised.
Posted by: timman on November 17, 2005 07:38 PM
My registration was not challenged, and neither was yours, so please put your delusional baloney between two slices of bread, and eat it.
If you have evidence that your claims are true, take them to court. If they are upheld, we'll deal.
You guys here are the ones yelling about corruption. Prove it. And I mean in a court of law, not on a partisan blog. Put up or shut up.
Posted by: Ivan on November 17, 2005 08:19 PMDon't post to me or use my posts in quotes...
Don't talk to me...Get off this board...
You are a troll. A wannabe but never gonnabe...
Now simply go away.
I'm making it simple for you. Can you follow these instructions?
Good.
Posted by: Deborah on November 17, 2005 11:15 PMYou apparently you have no understanding that if someone who is not properly registered either because of error or because the person is 'dead' or that person is not a citizen or the voter intent was 'devined' incorrectly because of a lack of a defined standards etc; then the vote of that person has disenfranchised other legal voters who voted differently. There have been numerous cases cited on this web site of those types of problems.
So to spell it out - It is all about fixing the 'mismanagement' in King County. That can be done with 'open and honest' communications between all parties involved along with my other suggestions made in my previous post.
I'm not a troll, and I'm not going anywhere. Get it? And I'm calling you out because you are obviously mentally unbalanced and living in a delusional fantasy world.
Democrats and liberals are just plain folks like everyone else. We get up in the morning and go to work. We obey the law, no matter what you think. We love our kids, we are good neighbors, we are kind to small animals, and we take pride in building our communities.
So you don't like our politics. So what? We don't like yours. But we're not calling for the suspension of Posse Comitatus so we can start vigilante action against you, and we're not calling for the troops to come home and clean you out.
So get yourself some professional help, because it looks to me like you're at the edge.
Posted by: Ivan on November 18, 2005 07:27 AMWhat kind of a good neighbor aids and abets the effort to disenfranchise his neighbor, by refusing to acknowledge, or worse, ridiculing, any of the problems with KCE that have been painstakingly documented at this site?
I consider it disgusting that a pathetic, incompetent, partisan hack like Gregoire could be "elected", but I can tolerate it, as long as I know that the system was honest, and that the choice was made collectively by me and my fellow citizens.
I would hope that you would feel the same way, but by your words and statements here, anything that results in you getting your way is acceptable, and rules and laws be damned.
As long as that is your attitude, you are not a good neighbor, or a good citizen.
Posted by: ewaggin on November 18, 2005 12:45 PMYeah, I stopped beating my wife, too. Until you prove in a court of law that anyone was disenfranchised, and when any of Stefan's "documentation" is found by a court of law to be valid, then all of that is just hot air, and you're just as much a partisan hack for spreading it.
Gregoire is a pathetic, incompetent, partisan hack, and Rossi isn't?
My neighbors will vouch for me. I hope you can say the same truthfully. Peace out, brother.
Posted by: Ivan on November 18, 2005 12:59 PMYou are just another incarnation of Unkl Witz, Headless Lucy, etc...
You are a troll. You spend your posts on personal attacks and nothing of substance. You are just another manifestation of the communist liberal cult. A drone - absent of personal and critical thought.
Go away......My pity for you is running out...
Posted by: Deborah on November 18, 2005 01:08 PMHaving done what exactly what you accuse me of doing, you can now stop. Talk to you again soon. Or not.
Posted by: Ivan on November 18, 2005 02:43 PMKCE under Sims and Logan is not such a system.
Posted by: ewaggin on November 18, 2005 07:03 PM"Until you prove in a court of law that anyone was disenfranchised, and when any of Stefan's "documentation" is found by a court of law to be valid, then all of that is just hot air, and you're just as much a partisan hack for spreading it."
Patricia Levesque has voted twice in each of the last four elections. KCE has admitted to this, so proving it in a court of law is unnecessary.
That constitutes disenfranchisement of me (and every other law-abiding voter).
Do you see this as a problem?
Posted by: ewaggin on November 18, 2005 07:11 PMIvan is not a troll, and he does not hide who he is. Among other things, he is Chairman of the 34th District Democrats. When you take him on, you're not going against a blogger, you're going against "the man".
http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0129/news-scigliano.shtml
"Heading the list is Ivan Weiss, formerly the paper's senior copy editor, the outspoken and endlessly quotable union activist, a shop steward for 20 years, who had become almost literally the poster child for strike solidarity and defiance."
In the minutes from the Nov 9th, 34th District Democrats meeting, "In his Chairman's report, Weiss reported on the low voter turnout in the 34th district on Election Day, stating that it was in the 30% range. He expressed the need to update voter information in the precincts, such as addresses and phone numbers of registered voters. Weiss called all the contested voters he could reach whose registration had been challenged by the Republican Party. Those he said he reached were all legitimate voters and were angry that their registration had been questioned. They said they wanted the people who contested the votes to be prosecuted."
Now that you know a little more about Ivan, I'm sure you can now see whay he is always so cranky and wanting to solve everything in a court of law instead of in a free exchange of ideas.
Posted by: IvanWho on November 18, 2005 08:01 PMAnd we won't need one to decide Governor Gregoire's re-election, either.
And one other thing. If I didn't like a free exchange of ideas, would I be posting here in the first place? Think about it.
Posted by: Ivan on November 18, 2005 10:34 PMyou and your ilk do. Posted by: KS on November 20, 2005 08:18 PM
Is it that you can't answer, or you just don't want to?
Posted by: ewaggin on November 21, 2005 12:54 PM