While many of us are disappointed with David Irons' loss to Ron Sims, it's important to put this result in perspective. King County has been an overwhelmingly Democrat county for years. In fact, an incumbent Democrat County Executive would have been expected to do much better than Sims did. I compared the latest numbers in the Sims/Irons race with all of the other county-wide partisan races in recent years. Only a handful of Democrats have ever done worse than Sims, and an even smaller handful of Republicans have ever done better than Irons.
See the extended entry for a table --
Here are the most recent countywide partisan contests. The numbers dating back to 1998 are from the King County Elections Results Archive. I also include the 1993 and 1997 County Executive races. The table is sorted by the Democrat's percentage of the vote. Democrats who have fared worse than Sims are highlighted in red, Republicans who have done better than Irons are highlighted in green.
| Year | Contest | D Candidate | D % | R Candidate | R % |
| 2004 | State Auditor | Sonntag | 73.0% | Baker | 23.3% |
| 2004 | State Treasurer | Murphy | 68.9% | Lewis | 27.4% |
| 1998 | U.S. Senate | Murray | 66.8% | Smith | 32.8% |
| 2000 | Governor | Locke | 66.5% | Carlson | 31.8% |
| 1997 | Executive | Sims | Cooke | 34.5% | |
| 2004 | U.S. Senate | Murray | 65.2% | Nethercutt | 32.7% |
| 2004 | President | Kerry | 65.0% | Bush | 33.7% |
| 2000 | State Auditor | Sonntag | 64.6% | McEntee | 29.2% |
| 2004 | Insurance Commissioner | Kreidler | 64.4% | Adams | 31.6% |
| 2003 | Assessor | Noble | 63.3% | Pope | 36.7% |
| 1999 | Assessor | Noble | 63.1% | Callon | 36.9% |
| 2000 | State Treasurer | Murphy | 62.9% | Rhoades | 32.8% |
| 2000 | Attorney General | Gregoire | 62.7% | Pope | 31.3% |
| 2004 | Lt. Governor | Owen | 61.5% | Wiest | 28.9% |
| 2000 | Insurance Commissioner | Kreidler | 61.3% | Davidson | 34.6% |
| 2001 | Executive | Sims | 60.8% | Contreras | 35.0% |
| 2000 | Lt. Governor | Owen | 60.7% | Elliott | 29.9% |
| 2000 | President | Gore | 60.0% | Bush | 34.4% |
| 2000 | U.S. Senate | Cantwell | 58.6% | Gorton | 39.1% |
| 1993 | Executive | Locke | Hill | 41.8% | |
| 2004 | Governor | Gregoire | 57.8% | Rossi | 40.1% |
| 2004 | Comm. Public Lands | Cooper | 56.8% | Sutherland | 39.7% |
| 2000 | Comm. Public Lands | Lowry | 54.2% | Sutherland | 40.7% |
| 2005 | Executive | Sims | 54.18% | Irons | 40.9% |
| 2000 | Sec. of State | Bonker | 53.3% | Reed | 40.2% |
| 2004 | Sec. of State | Ruderman | 52.0% | Reed | 44.8% |
| 2004 | Attorney General | Senn | 50.4% | McKenna | 45.8% |
| 1998 | County Prosectuor | Canavor | 41.2% | Maleng | 58.4% |
It's notable that to find a Democrat who has done worse than Sims, you have to dig down to the bottom of the barrel where you get people like former Governor Mike Lowry, discredited in a sexual harrassment scandal and running for lower office; discredited former insurance commissioner Deborah Senn, running for A.G. and other weak candidates.
The only Republican who has actually even won King County in recent years is Norman Maleng. And partisan label aside, Maleng is such a reliable water boy for the Democrat-dominated machine that the Ds didn't even bother to oppose him the last time he ran.
Yes, the Republicans should have been able to do better this year. A constructive post mortem to propose ideas for improving the game should commence. But given the hard core leftist base in Seattle, the most realistic options for Republicans who care about county government --
a) join the machine ala Maleng (and why bother, unless all you aspire to is a job in county government)
b) resign oneself to permanent minority status
c) work to divide King County into a Seattle County and a suburban/rural county.
UPDATE: With the 11/9 5pm update, Sims' percentage has slipped a bit, putting him behind Mike Lowry.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at November 09, 2005 03:56 PM | Email ThisJim Nobles, a Republican, won on a platform to shut down the Monorail.
We can win in King County. With the right candidates, on the right issues, it can be done.
Posted by: Tim B. on November 9, 2005 05:10 PMLess than 60% of eligible voters register.
30% of register voters voted in this election.
So 18% of all possible voters voted in KC.
Ron Sims holds office on approximately the vote of 9% of all eligible voters.
700,000 folks did not particpate.
Another 450,000 don't even bother to register.
A better candidate and a positive message. Could do the trick.
Posted by: JCM on November 9, 2005 05:12 PMOn second thought it is very good she did not campaign with Ron, as that would have been the end of the Sims campaign.
By the way thanks for your work exposing King cantcounty elections. Even youe short but productive tenure as a poll judge was revealing. You got many other people off thei rears and out helping and watching in these elections, and as one who worked yesterday, I can tell you many couples and individuals came in disgusted with Kind county elections, wanting to change their method of voting.
They are very ready to see change in this system!
To blame it all on voter fraud is foolish. The fact is that Ron Sims was re-elected because that's who the voters wanted in office. (If voter fraud occurred--which it may well have--it was beside the point in that race.)
I say this as someone whose Own Personal Race (that is, the race in which I volunteered and was most deeply invested) actually went my way by a landslide. Obviously, that makes me happy. But in the long term, it won't matter. We're doomed as surely as the Romans were doomed.
Posted by: ScottM on November 9, 2005 05:32 PMI think it was Churchhill who said something to the effect that with democracy, the people get the government they deserve.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on November 9, 2005 05:37 PMUnkl Witz, this may shock you (if luck is with me, it will cause your head to explode), but I agree with you. The fact that George W. Bush is the best we conservatives can do indicates that people like you are going to win. This, of course, is what I mean by "Western civilization is doomed."
God help us.
Posted by: ScottM on November 9, 2005 05:44 PMScottM: although every particular situation may seem to be THE END, it (almost) never is. Christianity, for example, has been predicting the imminent end of the world since about 33 A.D., and they haven't been right yet.
Posted by: HT on November 9, 2005 05:51 PMRight back at ya pal. People like you did win, George is in office and a very delicate system of international relations and behavior that took over a century to build is on the verge of collapse. You can throw all the rocks you want, but you are equally to blame for the problem.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on November 9, 2005 05:54 PMHowever, rather than cry about it for the next four years, positive action will get better results. First, split King County so that the welfare machine has a more limited tax base to drain. Next, come up with a consistent message and a solid outline of how to solve some pressing issues.
I was a poll watcher yesterday and the number of people who are irritated with the way things are handled was quite astonishing. Most voted because they realize how important it is to do so even in a messed up system. Also, it became apparent that some didn't think David Irons differed a whole lot from Sims on how to handle issues like homelessness and transportation. Feel good solutions like light rail and tent cities don't solve the problems. As a poll watcher I didn't talk to any of the voters, but I did have the opportunity to be the fly on the wall. It was a great learning experience.
Note to the disgruntled members of David Irons' family: Gloat while you can because what goes around comes around. Kudos to David for taking the high road while you were slinging mud.
Posted by: Burdabee on November 9, 2005 06:04 PMWe need to have someone with vision and an unassailable moral compass (do NOT read that to be Hard Right Christian Conservative). We need a man or woman who is articulate, approachable, well-organized and can think on their feet.
There is NO, NO, NO excuse for the muck-up that was the voter challenge. The local and state parties need to lean on the folks whose professions give them the experience to know what to do. Bob or Jane may have been solid footsoldiers for the party for many years, but if they don't know strategy and management, they shouldn't be in charge of projects. That is a UNION mentality.
Yes, I am ticked off. Ticked off at a party that has put Craswell and that nutball from Tacoma on the ballot. Ticked off at a party that can't get its act together for the court case even when Stefan and many others were SCREAMING about the direction to go. Ticked off at a party that formed about 50% of an idea (voter challenges), but didn't cover its own tail both in quality of work and appearance of partisanship.
We are NOT the wacky Dems. Let's not act like it!
Posted by: Mark on November 9, 2005 06:25 PMPray for the U.S.A.
Posted by: Ken on November 9, 2005 06:28 PMI think it was Forrest Gump who said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
Posted by: South County on November 9, 2005 06:38 PMMost people in this state don't even realize that state wide races/initiatives are decided in KC.
So tell us Non KC citizens what we need to do, to help the "other" King County to succeed from the corrupt one....
Posted by: Chris on November 9, 2005 06:41 PMThe answer is not to cut the county in half so we can further isolate ourselves. Seattle will still be bigger.
I say more conservatives need to move back INTO Seattle, register, and VOTE. Take this town back the old fashioned way.
I for one am happy to live in QA just so I can cancel at least one moonbat vote (and be the token vote against Baghdad JIM.) Please join me in taking back this once proud, once functioning city.
Posted by: dave on November 9, 2005 06:53 PMI-912 wouldn't have even failed in California, the way the law is written overwhelmingly favoring one county.. but it passed here because the Republican Party is snuggly ensconced in the back pocket of developers and builders. It is absolutely worthless to fiscal and social conservatives. If you are a conservative and you swear by Chris Vance's Republican Party you're an incorrigible fool.
In what alternate universe does a party that puts mother beating temper-tampor throwing neandrathals on the ticket win elections?
Chris Vance is working for the Democrats and so are you for endorsing him. This guy is to politics what Custer was to Little Bighorn.
Posted by: Jim on November 9, 2005 07:19 PMThe local and national Republican leadership has been absolutely inept when dealing with these *in your face* challenges launched by the corrupt and communist Democrat party! It's almost as though they purposely screw it up! Look at the Rossi election trial! My God! The Republican council did nothing! Their inaction was almost equivalent to a wink and nod to their opponents!
With the mailbox voters - why in the hell did Chris Vance wait until right before the election to make the challenges? This left him no time to counter the Dems claims of dirty politics or error.. Chris Vance should have taken out a full page advertisement over the weekend stating in huge letters that over 1800 illegal mailbox voters voted in the primary (Or had the opportunity to vote!)..
The Republicans don't seem to want to win or even fight..the Feds don't seem to want to clean up the corruption....I don't feel this is the America I grew up in.....
Most people are fed up with your failed philosophy.
Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Posted by: Smoking in the Boys' Room on November 9, 2005 07:33 PMThis is still your America. The problem is that the GOP has been thinking like a union thug instead of a nimble ninja.
If the party wants to go after the Dems, there needs to be a well-planned, concise and HONEST attack that does its damage before the Dems can even react. Instead, we get the equivalent of a drunken union thug flailing his arms. He can hit -- and sometimes it connects and hurts -- but he can also be quickly knocked off balance.
Posted by: Mark on November 9, 2005 07:41 PMAt whom, specifically, are these comments directed? And what basis do you have for saying so?
Posted by: Mark on November 9, 2005 07:43 PMI'm from the desert side of the state and did it in my community some years ago.
It can be done!!!
Posted by: Curtis Mohr on November 9, 2005 07:48 PMWhat the heck are you talking about and how is it relevant to this thread? Are you a real person or just a software program?
It seems like you read a keyword in the thread and that triggers some ill-formed talking-points blather that you cut 'n' pasted from MorOn.org.
Posted by: Mark on November 9, 2005 08:06 PMKen, what and where have you noticed this rise in evangelical christianity here in KC? Your thoughts may be more right than many may think, re what it may take to change the region. Interested in hearing what exactly you're observing..
Posted by: Not another 4 years! on November 9, 2005 08:20 PMDon't get me wrong, I would love to see it!
Posted by: GS on November 9, 2005 08:46 PMI would estimate that Irons lost anywhere from 3-5% from the negative effect of Pres. Bush - who is in a tailspin. On a large scale, that is disturbing; he is acting like he doesn't care about the media teeing off on him for 3 reasons; 1) Iraq, 2) high fuel prices and 3) his do-nothing stance on illegal immigration. I am disappointed especially about 1) and 3). This stuff is basically giving free reign to the leftist pinhead trolls, who show more zeal at this time, than the conservatives. Where are the leaders to counter the leftist pinhead troll counter culture (the secular progressives) ? David Irons was a victim (to a degree) of this backlash.
If Bush does not change his approach and show more leadership, it looks grim for the 2006 elections at the national level. I know that the White House doesn't read this blog, and wonder if they read much of anything except their own press clippings lately. With that said, I like the new Supreme Court nominee. Now the Repubs will have to stand up and fight to get Alito to be confirmed or roll over - the choice is theirs !
Posted by: KS on November 9, 2005 09:01 PMI don't actually go to Move on that often, I rather listen to you idiots on HA defend Mother beating scum...would it been different if he had left a spot on Moms blue Dress? Or Because you're into Scooter p*rn, it's just Man on Woman S*x that freeks you sickos out and Oedipidal is acceptable.
Scooter and his trained Bears, is an excellent read for the kids.
And you call yourself a Christian?
Are you even trying to write using the English language? Or are you stoned (again) and typing whatever fleeting words zip between your ears?
Posted by: Mark on November 9, 2005 09:14 PMCome back at with my spelling mistakes next time.
Posted by: danw on November 9, 2005 09:29 PMAs a pollworker yesterday, I had the opportunity to hear mega distrust from multiple frustrated people trying to cast their vote, about their total distrust of the King County Elections department.
People who came in and told vivid stories about watching the enhancement of peoples ballots in the last recount.
People who came in wanting to not vote absentee because they wanted their vote to count this time and distrusted the absentee voting.
People who came in with all kinds of concerns about the King County elections departments.
Clean up your own house before you go rambling on about other's houses.
Posted by: GS on November 9, 2005 09:36 PMYet another of those sardine dwellers from the Peoples Republic of Seattle celebrating corruption and incompetence. Really, it's amazing you find the strength to get out of bed each day with the joy you must find around you. Were you raised by depressing and defeatist parents? If so you have my pity. If not, you have my pity. Aw hell, you just have my pity straight up.
Posted by: Danny on November 9, 2005 09:38 PMPosted by: dave on November 9, 2005 09:39 PM
Lots of work to do and we're looking for help (including a webmaster-- I'm trying to do that in my spare time and not doing a great job). Go to Cascadecounty.kendra.com or drop us an email at cascade@cascadecounty.kendra.com to join in this noble cause.
Thanks, John Hearing, Chairman
Posted by: Cascade County on November 9, 2005 09:44 PMWhy was there all this distrust yesterday. because of all the stuff that this irresponsible blogger has filled your minds with.
It is no different here, than anywhere else. You have human error. But this bonehead makes it sound like a grand conspiracy. Regan and Bush used this effectivley to supress votes. and we know what happens when the votes get suppressed.
When the Democraticaly controlled government of this state, decides to gerrymander the heck out of it like Texas, I'll jump on your wagon.
Posted by: danw on November 9, 2005 09:48 PMKS,
I would love a new county!
But... taking a good look at the manipulation of the political dynamics of this state (and the country) over the past few decades - (who's in the prominent positions and how they got there).......it would only be a matter of time before the liberal's infiltrated and took over the new county government. They are a cancer.
To form a new county in Washington would be like putting a new tire on a broken vehicle...It would not be enough...We really need to surgically remove the cancer...and the Feds are the only ones who can do this....but don't seem interested..
A new county might buy us a breath of fresh air for a short time....but I'm sure the cancer has already spread to places like Kent, Renton, Covington, Issaquah,.....Without the help of the Federal Government - there is nothing we can do in this state to clean it up...The cancer seems to have spread to our region's US Attorney!
You've joined the many who fought the good fight and have set an example for the rest of us to follow. Few, if any could have fought this battle better than you did.
We appreciate your service.
Posted by: Andy on November 9, 2005 10:02 PMThe opperative word in your post was "a".
Now there is a a huge conspiracy. I've got 50 in a Belltown Condo, that would disagree with you.
Should the perjurer miss Soleto(?) go up on the 140 counts?...thought not, doesn't work both ways for you.
I am embarrased that a inteligent MOT like you is involved with this whole thing. Have you no shame of your bedfellows. You are the most dangerous of all. What are you related to Lee Atwater? and trying to leave a legacy? I just don't get it.
So Gadfly, danw and other leftist pinhead trolls; Your wish is that we become like France, Spain and all of the other socialist European countries - that will be ripe for being attacked by Islamofascists like France was. That's real intelligent...NOT ! You'll say no it isn't, but your ilk couldn't walk their talk if their life depended on it or had a lobotomy. Face it, you leftists lost any common sense and have a mental disorder of how you'd like to rule this planet - which would hasten the end of civilization..
Oh really?
Think again.
Try most of everything EAST of Seattle and WEST of the mountains.... you know... where all the TAX DOLLARS come from.... where MaxTax Sims is stealing all that land....
For being an excellent garage mechanic. If you hadn't smacked around your mom, stole the last remaining assests from Brigadoon, lied on your resume and been tough guy around women and a puss with men. Other people than the Idiots on here would have voted for you too, as an Anti-Sims vote.
Thank goodness, that only the anti Whitehouse BJ people voted for you.
You can thank us Liberals for you still being able to get a good paying Grease Monkey Job someplace. That's a pretty good living for someone without a college degree.
PS. Please let me know what the gaps on my Plugs should be on my 2000 chevy Tahoe...stick with what your good at, but leave the Family alone, they've paid enough for making you never have to do anything to survive on your own. I bet they wish they could change their names.
As I was saying, think again... and please try to THINK before you speak, write, opine...
check out illuminatelife.org or occ.org.
no time to post, gotta run! send me an email if you wanna chat
God Bless
Posted by: Ken on November 9, 2005 10:58 PMLess time at Hayden lake, and more time reading will help you see what Liberals really want to see happen in this country.
And based on your previous writings, isn't end of times what your hoping for anyway? Can I have your car?
Posted by: danw on November 9, 2005 11:00 PMha.
We can move them down the river because once we are our own state we won't allow the damns to be taken out.
ha. you crack me up danw. you really, really do.
Explain the land grab to me...do I understand correctly that since Ron Sims came into office and had to do a CAO plan as erequired by the state. That you are now not able to build the same number of houses on the property that you have, as you could before?
Just want to know? Washis some new zoning that went into effect?
Posted by: danw on November 9, 2005 11:05 PMThat was funny. Anybody that doesn't think that was funny can just get the hell out of here.
comeon... let's hear a reply from the "what's his name for whatever it was he was runnin for" campaign.
Posted by: Gadfly on November 9, 2005 11:07 PMHaven't you heard of democratic Pirates in speed boats...Yaaaarggghh.
Posted by: danw on November 9, 2005 11:08 PMThe CAO nakes it IMPOSSIBLE for people to use their own land for ANYTHING... improvements such as a barn or garage. It takes acres of land which folks have worked hard to buy, keep and pay taxes on and tells them YOU CAN"T USE YOUR OWN LAND... BUT DON'T FORGET TO PAY THE DAMNED TAXES.
The result is an immediate devaluation of the REAL value of property: the ability to sell it and make a profit. Why in God's name would anyone want to buy 10 acres if you are only allowed to use 3.5 of them.... and then with onerous restrictions?
Get a clue Dan, and come back when you own something more than debt on your car.
Posted by: Cheryl on November 9, 2005 11:11 PMI think it has a nice ring to it especially in that election department. I suspect that although they eliminated it they sure still practice it.
Posted by: GS on November 9, 2005 11:15 PMSo bear with me, since I don't own rural land in King county (but have a little more than just a car,wink wink, you should have bought commercial.)
You are saying you can not build ANYTHING or do ANYTHING on your 10 Acres of wooded land that you couldn't do before. ANYTHING?
Like that 10 acres that was zoned for 2 houses before, you can't build 2 houses on it now?
Really, I want to know. and this all came from Ron Sims?
"One of the many new regulations contained in these new ordinances is a clearing limit for unimproved properties in the RA zones. The limits are 50% up to and including 5-acre parcels. Parcels larger than 5 acres can clear 2.5 acres or 35%, which ever is larger. The remaining 50% to 65% of your land will be restricted to growing native trees. No mowing, no pastures, no gardens and no orchards."
Posted by: Cheryl on November 9, 2005 11:36 PMSpecifically, the CAO limits rural landowners with five acres or more to clearing only 35% of their property, forcing them to maintain the remaining 65% as native vegetation indefinitely. Rural landowners owning less than 5 acres may clear only 50% of their parcels. The CAO also requires landowners to limit the amount of impervious surfaces, such as basic structures like houses, barns, driveways, and sidewalks, to 10% of parcels larger than 2.5 acres. Of course, King County still demands that affected landowners pay taxes on the portion of the property rendered useless by the CAO.
Just want to know? Washis some new zoning that went into effect? -Posted by danw at November 9, 2005 11:05 PM
You are saying you can not build ANYTHING or do ANYTHING on your 10 Acres of wooded land that you couldn't do before. ANYTHING?
Like that 10 acres that was zoned for 2 houses before, you can't build 2 houses on it now?
Really, I want to know. and this all came from Ron Sims? -Posted by danw at November 9, 2005 11:31 PM
Those posts is really quite revealing... much more than I'm sure you meant them to be.
What those posts tell us is that you really did NOT care who was running, you did NOT care to pay attention to the issues.
What those posts tell us is that your vote for Sims, the victor for whom you are cheering, was only predicated on the fact that he had that great big 'D' after his name and that he was not a consevative or a Republican.
How sad.
This country is only as good as its INFORMED citizens.
Posted by: Cheryl on November 9, 2005 11:56 PMOnce again, it has to do with INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS... it has to do with THE ABILITY OF INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS TO USE THE PROPERTY THEY OWN AS THEY SEE FIT, WHEN THEY SEE FIT.
My best pal wanted to build an addition to her 40 year old house that sits on over 10 acres.... she was NOT ALLOWED to build the addition she wanted on HER OWN DAMNED PROPERTY. Furthermore, she was forced to "mitigate" ON HER OWN DAMNED PROPERT THAT SHE COULDN'T BUILD HER DREAM ADDITION ON with "native plants" BEFORE she was allowed to start the COA limited addition on HER OWN DAMNED PROPERTY.
It was her hope to divide the land so that each of her married children could build a house in which to raise her grandchildren, but because of the CAO she cannot even do that WITH HER OWN DAMNED PROPERTY.
Get it yet, junior?
Posted by: Cheryl on November 10, 2005 12:26 AMPlease go easy on Dan. The stuff was obviously just wearing off when he was typing this, which is a nasty state to be in, I'm sure. Dan, if perchance you're still reading this, drink lots of water, or you'll fry your liver. And I wouldn't wish that even on you.
Posted by: TB on November 10, 2005 12:47 AMIndividual property rights. Do whatever I want on MY property. Wake up sweetie, it's not just you in this world. Say your Neighbor wanted to build a business instead of the lovely little house on the prarie thing you got going her for her Grandchildren, It's her property, she should be able to do whatever she wants? Let's say back home in Arkansas her family used to hunt and Tan Deer skins. Following Bright one? Ever live next to a tanning plant? Ever seen what the downhill PCB levels are, ever smell the fresh skins?
So according to you granny should be able to do whatever she wants, it's her property. What happens to the property values of the neighbors?
Get a clue. We have laws to protect everyone, not just you and granny. My Car will do 120 MPH, but I can't drive it legally that way, but it's my car. (by the way I have no car payments, from an earlier dig you gave to me, thought it would fit here, liked the dig ;-))
These laws were forced on Granny based on the best available science, I know science is something you tend not to believe in, but it's all we got.
The Real example is; Granny Builds a big housing Compound for the whole fam damly, paves the whole damn place. The water Erodes and destroys all the neighboring properties and their values and all the profit they were going to make. The people still have to pay taxes on there property that Grannys building made worthless. Who steps up for them? (even if she affects a small amount of someone elses land it still decreases their value)
Suppose you want more of that Government money to help. How about Granny pay for the Damage?
So it all goes back to my original premise.
You couldn't care less about anyone else but yourself, and never consider consequences. You know understanding consequences usually happens by the time your 25. Hope you have a happy birthday and a revelation
danw,
You've illustrated your idiocy to everyone on this board, as I'm sure you do to all your friends and coworkers in real life. The fact that you're asking to have the CAO explained to you today shows that you know absolutely nothing about it.
Nor do you have the slightest clue about the economic value of property, nor the economic foundations of our law and property system. In your last posting you were mixing the effects of zoning regulations with the CAO. How old were you when you had your brain removed?
Just remember this - if you own a house in Seattle, and Ron Sims passes the Seattle CAO, which calls for you to leave 65% of your property (your front & back yard) in its natural state - you can't mow, you can't landscape, you can't put in a porch or a deck - you'll have to vote for Ron Sims in order to be logically consistent.
But then - you know as much about logical consistency as you do about the CAO and the economics of public property laws.
Posted by: Larry on November 10, 2005 07:40 AMTo further answer your ignorance:
If you move in next door to a tanning plant, you were compensated for the externality by the decreased price you paid for the property. If you did not negotiate a lower price because of the externality, it's your fault.
If a tanning plant moves in next to you (assuming your residential block is zoned for manufacturing, which is not usually the case), then you can sue the tanning plant for the externalities that it creates that cause your property values to decrease.
The same goes for a runway at the airport. Why are people who live under the proposed flight path upset? Because they know their property will soon be devalued by the exernality of airplanes shaking their foundation, and they don't want that, or they want compensation if it does happen.
See - that's the economic foundation of property law in this country, something you obviously know nothing about. When you buy your property, and later your property is devalued due to negative externalities, you have the right to seek compensation in a court of law.
But the CAO systematically devalues property and offers no compensation. A tax break, no matter how large, does not cover this devaluation. A person buys ten acres that is zoned residential, and they can do what they'd like, within reason and local laws, to develop that property. All of a sudden, due to the CAO, they have only 3.5 acres to develop as they choose - but they paid for 10!
If this externality was caused by a private business - like a tanning plant - the property owner can sue the owner of the tanning plant. But in this case, there is no compensation. It is the systematic devaluation of land by Ron Sims and the CAO. It's called communism, danw, and that's something I'll bet you know A LOT about.
That concludes today's lesson in property laws and externalities. You learned a lot, didn't you little danny boy?
Posted by: Larry on November 10, 2005 08:32 AMIf Oregon were attacking the US and our soldiers and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians - you bet we would.
Posted by: Larry on November 10, 2005 08:34 AMIt is obvious I am the one who gets it all mixed up. I'll make sure to get my Oil drilling platform up before the new CAO gets here. I have heard this crappola, from someone else that you can't take down blackberries either. guess what Noxious weeds can be removed. As for the difference between CAO and Zoning, Yes I understand the difference. (but in this case they are much closer than you think) what you and your Ilk don't understand are laws and science.
So quiclky old 65% rule, give me the answer to Grandmas property development adversley affecting the value of the neighbors property.
How do you deal with that? Aren't the neighbors getting the shaft? who compensates them? Why should I have a huge Parking lot pouring Oily water onto my Pristine property?
Sims was forced to do something with the CAO, he didn't grab your land and put a Tent city on it. His mistake was they misread the best available science. he was required to something. (by law, I know you don't believe in them, but they keep you from shooting everything in sight)
Yes Larry; another throw the baby out with the bathwater type. Instead of working towards finding a solution for your Personal problem,
(how many people does this effect anyway? really a number of landowners)
You would rather be a secessionist. Please go to Kansas, and see what it look like year round, when nobody gives a whoot about the overall state, and allow corporate interest free reign.
I sure wish you liberals could practice what you preach to the rest of us.
"It's time for a lot of folks in this blog-o-circle to get a life. Sims won. The 2004 gubernatorial race is over."
Take out a few words, and you would have identified the liberals both here in Washington State and nationwide to a tee.
Tell you what, when Micheal Moore, Barbara Streisand and you actually practice what you preach, I'll think about it.
By the way, don't get too excited about 2006, after all your democratic colleagues in the congress are just as unpopular today according to polling..
Posted by: jaybo on November 10, 2005 10:03 AM'06 is going to be a problem for Rs if the Ds continue to get away with a hot economy being called a recession. Bush ain't going to do it, so it will have to be us bloggers.
Posted by: baffles on November 10, 2005 10:27 AMYour idiocy obviously knows no bounds. Furthermore, I never made an argument for secession. I only pointed out the the CAO runs contrary to hundreds of years of laws pertaining to property rights. And you offered no proof nor facts as to why I'm wrong. You couldn't, of course, because I'm right, so you just kept talking out of your @$$. Bully for you.
Your logic flows like your grammar and syntax. In other words, it doesn't. Don't you like how I spell correctly, punctuate correctly, and use sentences with nouns, verbs, and direct objects? It'd be easier to understand you if you would do the same. You're probably a result of Seattle Public Schools.
To answer your question, if Grandma's development adversely affected the neighbors, the neighbors would most certainly take Grandma to court. You know this. It happens all the time. Neighbors have disputes over property usage and they look to our legal system to assuage their grievances. However, this is not possible with King County. When King County devalues land with the CAO, there is no just compensation. Understand?
Furthermore, in your infantile example - where in King County can Grandma do this? You know that there were ALREADY all sorts of zoning restrictions, wetlands restrictions, water table restrictions, runoff restrictions...or maybe you didn't know that, and you're just talking out of your @$$ like you usually do.
So let me fill you in - King County ALREADY HAD restrictions and convenants covering everything you mentioned - zoning, water table, runoff, wetlands - everything. And they still enacted the CAO. And you still can't say why. Oh, your final hypothesis was that it cuts down on lawsuits. Einstein you are.
You ask if you need a trial lawyer when someone messes with your land? Only if you're unarmed. Seriously, how stupid are you? What would you do if someone harmed your property and your land? Would you be a vigilante and burn down their house? Or would you talk to your lawyer?
danw, just because you don't know anything about economics and property law, doesn't mean you can't learn. The fact that you're a closed-minded myopic person DOES mean that you can't learn.
I am going to start a movement for Seattle that I know Ron Sims will go along with. It's already done all over enlightened Europe and even in progressive cities in the US, New York and San Francisco. It will help our neighbors even out the inequities between the working people and the corporations (or LLC's).
It's called RENT CONTROL.
Will you join my movement? Think of all the greedy landlords in Belltown who inherited their
properties from their grandparents. Do they deserve to raise their rent whenever they feel like it? All they think about is themselves!
Please let me know what you think of my plan.
Posted by: put yer money where yer mouth is on November 10, 2005 11:48 AMI only pointed out the the CAO runs contrary to hundreds of years of laws pertaining to property rights. And you offered no proof nor facts as to why I'm wrong.
So I'll do my best.
100's of years of property laws? Have things changed in the past 100 years? Why don't we go back to the old laws of say 1900? Why should we have any laws at all? Really if it's a private property issue that goes back that far.
So who writes these laws?
1964: The First Comprehensive Plan
Concerned King County citizens prompt government to draft the first Comprehensive Plan to manage growth in unincorporated King County. The innovative and forward-thinking 1964 principles continue to guide King County growth policies today.
1985: King County Council unanimously adopts updated Comprehensive Plan
Twenty years later, as rapid growth threatens forests, farmlands and open spaces, and the costs of housing, energy, and police and fire protection soar, the plan is updated. Preserving King County's natural beauty, as well as ensuring affordable housing and diverse living environments, remains fundamental considerations in plans for managing future growth.
The 1985 Comprehensive Plan identifies an "urban growth boundary line." This line limits growth to areas with an existing infrastructure for facilities and services; it protects natural resource lands; it states that rural areas remain largely intact; and it guides cities, service districts and the private sector in working together to manage growth responsibly.
1990: Growth Management Act (GMA)
The Washington State Legislature passes the GMA as a way to further protect the unique Pacific Northwest quality of life. The GMA directs the state's most populous and fastest growing counties and their cities to prepare comprehensive land use plans that anticipate growth and impact for a 20-year horizon.
King County and cities within its boundaries develop the King County Countywide Planning Policies to meet the GMA requirements and to coordinate planning among all of its jurisdictions. These policies establish an urban growth area within the western one-third of King County where most growth and development is projected to occur. The policies' goals include reducing urban sprawl, protecting rural areas, and more efficiently providing roads, parks and other services.
You have elected officials since 1964 that have run on these platforms, because we as a county appreciate the natural beauty of where we live. They understand that if we wanted to look like LA, they would be voted out, but they are not.
Why are you okay with any Zoning laws? they infringe on your rights.
So unless you are willing to dump all Zoning laws, then you are the Hypocrite.
This is the best available science, and is mandated by the state, not Ron Sims.
(there is better science available)
So when you blame us Demo's of not having any new ideas, and always just attacking, look at yourself.
Come up with the solution that allows for compromise. The People have spoken since 1964, that we want controlled sprawl. If you want to turn this place into an Asphalt jungle, get your folks elected. Make sure they run on that platform.
PS I hope my writing didn't hurt your superior brain too much.
PSS You would think my lack of education and writing skills would lead you to believe that I could easily be a selfish, self centered Pri*K like you. One who doesn't look at the whole picture and only votes single issues that help himself. I know that is the GOP base you count on with Guns and Gays. Sorry, I escaped the fear mongers.
To answer your question, if Grandma's development adversely affected the neighbors, the neighbors would most certainly take Grandma to court. You know this. It happens all the time. Neighbors have disputes over property usage and they look to our legal system to assuage their grievances. However, this is not possible with King County. When King County devalues land with the CAO, there is no just compensation. Understand?
So, I don't like the teardown up the street, I go to the meetings on proposed land use, and get no relief. It is approved for 6 houses. I can hire an attorney to sue the developer and waste everyones money and time like 912 did?
Won't this rase my Insurance rates and the doctors leave the state?
You guys are priceless. Attorneys and The ACLU only suck when you don't need them.
Where would his lord almighty Rush Limbaugh be without either of them.
The GOP.....the party of ME.
Earlier you wrote;
Good luck you greedy greedy Bit*h.
May your Taxes go up 3 fold.
Mine went up last year, but I just raised the rents as was in the contracts.
I like to call my plan "Urban CAO - lite"
Would my plan affect you and will you join my movement?
Posted by: put yer money where yer mouth is on November 10, 2005 12:55 PMBut if low income housing floats your boat, go for it. January start getting your signatures. Or get the elected legislators behind your plan.
The GOP, the party of revenge, versus solutions.
Posted by: danw on November 10, 2005 01:11 PMI hated the Monorail. Can't we find some common ground.
Don't cut me off, I am trying to help you poor rural folks. I am in no way saying the KC CAO is even a good answer. I sympathize with a lot of the people affected.
There are solutions, such as a "Credit Exchange" Option. But you don't want compromise, you want everything for you me only folk.
Your not the party of solutions. your the party of Asphalt Jungles and greed.
You're all smoke and mirrors. Your arguments have no point whatsoever. Your ignorance of the economic foundations of property law in the United States (which were inherited from Western European common law) is incredible.
I don't give a rat's a$$ if Seattle has been passing laws contrary to these principles for 40 years - they're still contrary to these principles. And you've offered no contrary facts, only insufferable moving target logic and poor reasoning.
Let me explain it to you plain & simple. When you purchase property, you pay the current market value of the property. The current market value is based, among other things, on the restrictions currently covering that property and the effects of those restrictions. The more restrictions on the property, the less it is worth, all else being equal (ceteris parabus), right?
So then the local government changes the restrictions on the property, which devalues the property, without offering you just compensation for the devaluation. This is wrong, and goes contrary to hundreds of years of western common law.
You're a landlord? So you own buildings that are residential? What if Seattle all of a sudden zoned one of your buildings to be industrial and nobody was allowed to live there nor do commercial business there? What would you do? Kick out your tenants and sell it at a vastly deflated price, go home, and give up? Or would you fight back in order to keep your property from being devalued?
The question is not what restrictions are legal to place on a property - it's what compensation the property owner receives when the restrictions are changed after they've made their good faith purchase. It's about what compensation a property owner receives for the devaluation of their land by an external source.
If the external source of devaluation of the property is King County's CAO, there is no compensation for the devaluation. That's wrong, it's always been wrong, and it'll always be wrong. It will inhibit econimic development in King County, and it will result in the suppression and devaluation of property in King County, while increasing prices in Snohomish, Kittitas, and other neighoring counties. This is undeniable, unless your logical construct does not obey economics and the laws of supply and demand.
You can call me names, but you can't call me illogical. I invite you to show my assertions to your favorite economics or public policy professor, should you know any, and ask them if I'm incorrect. They'll tell you that I'm spot on.
Posted by: Larry on November 10, 2005 04:42 PMAs for the name calling at the bottom I don't remember calling you any names similar to the descriptions you used for me.
But explain to me how this is different from Zoning laws?
If the city changes the zoning on your property (Grandfathering aside) and it decreases your value are they required to pay you the difference in cash?
What happens if it increases your value? do you pay the city? (Just a joke on this one)
To say: I don't give a rat's a$$ if Seattle has been passing laws contrary to these principles for 40 years - they're still contrary to these principles. And you've offered no contrary facts, only insufferable moving target logic and poor reasoning.
Are you saying that although they have been done legally they are still wrong, and the CAO is just the straw that broke a 40 year old camels back?
Also when you buy a property, you buy it for it's current value and future perceived benefits. That is an appraisers way of defining highest and best value.
It's like the stock market, Do you think property should only go up in value?
Does the Value go down on a property when a company like Boeing moves away? Should we hold King County Responsible for the Economic downturn that caused your property to devalue, because they didn't give tax breaks to Boeing?
So just answer me this, how are you not okay with the CAO that effects your value and you are okay with Zoning that may have similar effects on Value?
Your'e barking up the wrong tree - I don't identify with the Republicans - I am an independent who leans conservative. You will have a hard time backing up the party of asphalt jungles and greed.
The king of greed is George Soros, who aligns himself with Howard Dean and the Dems, financier of Air America (up to now), who has a one world government agenda, so it will help his investments and probable illicit drug trafficing, which he is alleged to have connections with. Also, MSM distorts the facts quite often, so I totally don't blame you. The compromise - me only claim is a gross exaggeration, unless you were confused and meant Demorats, in which case I would be more inclined to agree, but not totally. When you say, conservative sources and publications are not to be believed - you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just like, Democrats are not 100% liars and pinheads - I wouldn't mind seeing Bill Richardson run for or even become president - because he has a proactive stand on illegal immigration which is one of the most important issues today - I know that I'll get some flack from the conservative readers here - but who else has proposed that much on illegal immigration ?
Posted by: KS on November 10, 2005 07:19 PMRemember we are the ones who are called communist and socialists on this board, because we want to rob from the rich and give to the poor. So if you think that is the party of Greed, then Robin Hood was sure greedy.
(this is not what we believe, but we can't get that through to your ilk, it is easier for the Neocons to use the McCarthy tactics to keep you voting against your best interest)
As for you opening lines about Soros, Dean, Air America etc. this is where I know your not an independent. You have probably never heard Air America, and never actually looked into Soros other than what Bill O'Leily says. (broaden your horizons, it's easy to google, just go past the Fox links)
You're a single issue voter, the easiest to sway. You never look at America as a whole. That is what makes you a member of the ME team.
This whole mess in the whitehouse you probably blame on Bill Clinton and the Blue dress, and don't see anything wrong with our; International policies or standing in the world, our economy, This countries credit card spending and our huge defecit, the enviornment, Medicare, Price gouging, Pharmeceutical prices, and the dissapearing middle class, and 45 million with out Healthcare and I could go on. Because you are worried about a few Mexicans coming in and taking jobs that pay less than Walmart, and that no American could raise a family on. I'm glad you've got your agenda fixed. You may want to look if China and Japan owning most our debt, might eventually affect you more than your lost vegetable picking job.
Good luck to you.
http://www.soros.org/about
Check out the grants and scholarships.
Posted by: danw on November 10, 2005 09:11 PMYou seem to be a conspiracy theorist yourself - Democrat - good Republican - bad. I do agree with alot that O'Reilly says - (who also irritates the far right and the neocons) especially about the ACLU being one of the most dangerous group here. They are fascistic and Soros is right behind them. I am no neocon - I do not support the White House approach on the war in Iraq - they should have waited longer and verified the intelligence, which was a big mistake. I don't like budget spending like a drunken liberal sailor - even though the economy is good now, it doesn't bode well for the future, nor do I like his stance on illegal immigration - just like the rest of them - they are not looking out for you.
I see that the Libs are claiming McCarthyism and corruption on Bush - there is some corruption sure.. just as the Conservatives believed that Clinton administration was the most corrupt one ever, with the most corrupt AG - Janet Reno. Economically, Clinton helped the country, but foreign policy and moralistically - he was disaster ! (the left could say the same about Bush - they would probably say worse). When history is all said and done - both of them will rate as mediocre or fair at best. You would probably say that the new book exposing the hypocrisy of the left "Do as I say" is a pack of lies - if so, besides being scary, you are in denial big time.
Posted by: KS on November 10, 2005 11:38 PMIf we choose the latter option, I suggest we take Tuesday as an opportunity to hone our skills at "spinning" defeat into "victory" because we will really need them in 2006!
I suggest our failure revolved around Iraq, [Does anyone take seriously the proposition that Saddam is being given a "fair and impartial" trial? Tell me what exactly are we going to do if the jury finds him not guilty? Will he be set free?] gas prices, and a peculiar tendency by Republican operatives to judge candidates by their "resumes" instead of their ability to speak articulately, look good on television, and connect with average voters, ie the skills necessary to win elections!
We need better positions on the issues articulated by better politicians. How about deporting five or ten million illegal aliens?
One thing hurting Republicans in my area is the lack of an appealing economic message to the very demographic group which has formed the backbone of Republican support through the years. That is, middle class, working citizens who are honest, productive, patriotic, and play by the rules. We have many, many members of this class being economically devastated by outsourcing and offshoring, and you have GOP politicians who seem slavishly devoted to the concepts of globalism (even at the expense of our own citizens' well-being) and the cult of the CEO. You have the national party sending dolts like John Snow and Gregory Mankiw out to places like OH and PA, regions that have been economically ruined, with the message that outsourcing is good for you, and you should be glad that you got laid off because it's better for your company to make a few more pennies to put on the bottom line.
Then you have the GOP in WA state unable to recruit a candidate for Senate other than a deep-pockets CEO, something that seems like a political tin ear to me. I know it's not easy running statewide and national campaigns, finding good, honest people willing to stand up and take the abuse the liberal leftist scum will slime you with, but it seems somehow, somewhere, these highly paid political operatives should be able to come up with something.
Posted by: Interested Observer on November 11, 2005 05:45 AMI am sure you didn't actually go to the Soros site. But if all the Grants and Charities and democracy building programs he gives to are only because he wants world domination, I think he is going about it backwards. When you support relief and education and fighting oppresive dictators (Such as Mynamar), it makes it harder to take over the world.
I am Sure the GWB way of spreading democracy at the end of a gun is a much better choice. How are those purple fingers doing? I am sure you are sending your child over there to die for their freedoms. (Good for you)
Take a look at the site this time, find me the awful world domination plan hidden in there.
Because he is a large supporter of the Demos, that is why you believe this stuff. Also his support/ownership of Air America? check your facts this time. Your wrong again. I am sure he has given money, but so have I.
As for Bill O'leily,
I tend to believe what comes out of someones mouth, versus "what I have heard about them".
So here is your challenge.
Go to whatever source you want, and find the Commie, Socialist, untruths, or just plain lies that have come out of the mouths of any of these America hating Air America Wackos of which you speak. Please help me locate all these lies they tell. (There own words please, not what someone said about them) I am sure as you say, there as some misleading statements made by both sides, but not in the huge quantities that O'reily spills everyday. ( I watch him, just for the laughs, we play a drinking game as he pretends to be an independant)
I'll start you off with I am sure is a left wing site. The difference is that they use O'Leilys own words to hang him, not inuendo.
http://www.sweetjesusihatebilloreilly.com/archive
.html
I have one of these sites for everyone in the corrupt Bush administration, and almost every Faux newscaster.
And please stop calling yourself a Independent, When you can compare the shape this country is in now, versus President Erections time and find it about the same, you are a Neocon.
Posted by: danw on November 11, 2005 09:28 AMSo you go ahead and believe that O'Reilly is evil and Soros is working for the common good of the world and it is apparent that you have aligned yourself with the Socialists/secular progressives of the world. When will you figure out that these people are not looking out for you ? (maybe never)
One other thing, go back try reading my last comment carefully for a change - I don't support fighting tyrannical dictators, unless they attack us. Neocons cannot truthfully say that.
Posted by: KS on November 11, 2005 10:50 AMFind the quotes of these left wing radicals which lead you to your world/socialist domination therory.
We know how you feel about theroies. Theroy of Gravity, Therory of Evolution etc.
One side of the story? When using a persons own words to show where they really stand. You can't see that as the best barometer?
You say you don't support the war? what else don't you support by this administration?
If you're going to be a one issue voter, maybe Mexicans picking vegtables should be lower on your list.
"I believe fish and humans can learn to live and coexist peacefully".
Don't forget to find all that commie quotes from the left.
Other things I disagree with the Bush administration on; 1) their stand on illegal immigration; 2) his runaway spending.
danw said:
"One side of the story? When using a persons own words to show where they really stand. You can't see that as the best barometer?"
That's a no-brainer. I look at the consensus/other peoples views - right, center and the left's views. You should try that for a change - then your arguments would be less laughable.
Any person's own words are clearly biased in their favor; O'Reilly, Kerry, Bush, Soros - whoever. Get a clue !
But here you go.
Seems these days Conservatives have convinced themselves, and some of the American public, that being a Liberal is akin to being a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. While this may be a great smear tactic for an election year, to believe such a notion proves that the believer is uneducated in the fundamentals of the American political system. Our nation was founded on Liberalism. Embodied in the Declaration of Independence are its three tenets: "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." The very term, itself, is taken from the same root as the second of these precepts. To be a Liberal is to defend the freedom - the Liberty - of all people who make up our great nation. To be a Liberal is to trust individuals and families to run their own lives as they see fit. To be a Liberal is to create a nation where anyone can excel if they are willing to do the work.
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-family.
However . . .
Conservatives want to define what your family should be
Whereas . . .
Liberals put you in charge of your family
Liberals support your right to define what your family will be
Liberals fight for your family's rights against economic and political oppression
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-business.
However . . .
Conservatives are pro-money, but that often translates into monopolies, which hurt small business and competition, which hurts us all
Whereas . . .
Liberals protect small businesses by regulating the larger ones and by breaking up monopolies
Liberals protect workers in order to create a healthy workforce that will help businesses grow
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-religion.
However . . .
Conservatives are often for one dominant religion, and are, therefore, against others
Whereas . . .
Liberals support complete freedom of religion and from religion so that all citizen are free to choose the manner in which faith is a part of their lives
Liberals strive to keep government completely out of a family's religious choices
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-freedom.
However . . .
Conservatives want to stop homosexuals, stop abortions, stop the women's movement, and stop freedom of expression through the use of censorship
Whereas . . .
Liberals leave it up to the parents to teach such values to their children
Liberals believe each person or family should be free to choose how to behave as long as it does not interfere with another's rights
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-morality.
However . . .
Conservatives are for one specific kind of morality
Whereas . . .
Liberals are for the morality of free choice, where each person or family decides their own values
Liberals want the government to protect our freedom to choose what is important to us rather than to impose the laws and codes of another's morality
Conservatives say that Liberals are anti-military.
However . . .
Conservatives see the military as a means to impose their values and standards on others
Whereas . . .
Liberals see the military as a vital protection of our freedoms and our liberties, giving us a space in which to pursue happiness
See what happens when you listen to O'Reily?
Posted by: danw on November 11, 2005 05:23 PMYou have not yet proven any differences between the two platforms; far left and communist party and my challenge still stands. Your distinctions between conservatives and liberals are exaggerated and sound alot like talking points from Democraticunderground.com, except that you forgot to play the race card..
If you replace conservatives with Republicans and liberals with Democrat, they even fit less. There is more of a blurred line between the two, as I believe that both parties are in bed together about certain things. With that said, this was an interesting exchange of ideas which has run its course.
Regarding smoking: Paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Democracy is not the worst form of government only when compared to other forms of government." About 15 years ago perfume was banned on elevators in Berkly, California.
Republicans no longer run on principals although big tents made hold more people; but they seem to lose more races.
Posted by: snuffy on November 13, 2005 08:19 AMMerry Christmas to you and all. You seem to be rewritting our country's history to satisfy your own identity and cause.
I am for less government. What say you?
It seems to me that liberals are using government to schackle that hands of people. For example parents have little means available to them to assure that their children are raised as they see fit, unless of course they have the wherewithall or time to school them. Many families pay high taxes to the schools that in turn they, due to financial reasons, must send their children. In turn the schools realizing they have a lock on the public purse, advance some rather extreme causes. When parents complain, they are told they have the "freedom" to move their children to private schools, just continue to support the disgraced public venue.
from each according to his ability, to each according to their needs. Isn't that how the song goes which is music to the ears of the massess.
Snuffy
Posted by: snuffy on November 13, 2005 09:08 AM