October 12, 2005
Dean Logan Responds to my article in The Stranger

Big day today for Dean Logan. First, my article in The Stranger which reported that Logan instructed staff to count hundreds of votes from ineligible voters.

Next, the King County Republican Party holds a press conference outside Logan's office to announce that it is filing a formal challenge to the registrations of thousands of doubly registered voters that Logan has not removed from the voter rolls. (hint: people who are registered more than once can vote more than once.)

Logan gave a short press conference after the GOP press conference.

Here is the audio of Logan's press conference. The first question was from Keith Ervin of the Seattle Times, who asked about my article.

I've transcribed the brief exchange between Ervin and Logan. Notice Logan's refusal to address the issues, except to pretend that counting ballots from unregistered voters is perfectly normal. I follow up with information that refutes Logan's defense --

Ervin: Mr. Sharkansky's report today also talked about the "fatal pends" that from his report I understand that you with collaboration of the prosecuting attorney said 'yes, let's count some number, maybe 100, maybe 200 provisional ballot of fatal pends, where the registration...

Bobbie Egan: [interrupting] Keith, why don't we, sorry, can we talk about that after maybe in detail, because we only have ten minutes.

Ervin: if we have a chance to do it.

Logan: let me just say up front on that issue that you probably know far more about what was presented there than I do and I'm not going to validate any of the allegations made in that article because I don't think it's been made with any level of objectivity whatsoever.

Ervin: so you won't respond to the factual

Logan: no, I'd be happy to talk with you about the factual ... I did not make unilateral decisions to count ballots that were not vested through legal advice from our counsel and that were not common with what is typical in the elections process and with the awareness of the other canvassing board members.


As to whether counted ballots from unregistered "fatal pend" voters is common, see the relevant pages from KC Elections own manual of provisional ballot procedures , which states that fatal pend ballots cannot be counted, unless brought before the Canvass Board. [the manual is dated 2/9/05, but was submitted into evidence in the election contest trial as representing procedures in effect during the 2004 election]. Also see Carlos Webb's deposition , start on p. 220 (p. 71 of the PDF document), where Webb testifies to what is in the provisional ballot procedures manual.

As to the canvassing board? Canvassing board member Dan Satterberg told me he had no recollection of this issue coming before the canvassing board. If that is incorrect, be sure to go through the partially transcribed canvassing board recordings, here and let me know if you find any mention of these ballots before the canvassing board. I couldn't find any.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at October 12, 2005 06:31 PM | Email This
Comments
1. Funny that he would refuse to respond to research and resulting FACTS that he says are not objective, because King County definitely was not counting votes with any sort of objectivity.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on October 12, 2005 07:26 PM
2. There is no surprise Logan acts like a politician. Double speak. Denial. Cover thy ass. Blame others for mistakes that the information is gathered by biased People. This audio is funny. We are doing our job leave me alone seems to be the underlying message. It is human error.

Posted by: David Anfinrud on October 12, 2005 07:29 PM
3. I thought I read somewhere on here that Sam Reed has a new WAC rule that counts provisionals at the same time as the absentees........

So, thousands could vote these ballots twice?????????

How objective can you be considering the extremely sad state of thousands of ballots in the archives?

green card voter, amy richardson, fatal pend, amoung the other nonsensical notations up there?

Please don't stop the research until his toes are totally fried!

Posted by: sgmmac on October 12, 2005 07:30 PM
4. WOW. This Logan guy is a real piece o' work. Not only should he be permanently unemployed...he should be indicted. As a rotten spin-meister.
For starters.

Posted by: Unifliter on October 12, 2005 07:30 PM
5. We are not amused at your musings.

Posted by: Prince Deano on October 12, 2005 07:37 PM
6. Logan cannot survive this. Sims will try to squash it until after the election. Will the mainstream media allow that to happen?

The Shark for King County auditor???

Posted by: Jericho on October 12, 2005 07:40 PM
7. Boy, they sure didn't want to talk about the Fatal pends did they? As I mentioned in an earlier post, I sure hope enough people are receiving the information to make a difference in the next election.

Posted by: Gil on October 12, 2005 07:51 PM
8. It sounds like Bobbie Egan was trying to squash it!

Posted by: sgmmac on October 12, 2005 07:52 PM
9. kCRE needs more than an enema. It needs an overhaul. There is also Initiative 23 that will make Dean Logan's position up for election. It would be easier if David Irons gets elected - He would try to legislate I-23 (as he has already stated) and get rid of Logan - to boot.

Posted by: KS on October 12, 2005 08:01 PM
10. Ron Sims is very desperate to hold this together long enough to try and get away with stealing another term in office.

I stated last winter that there is NO WAY that Dean Logan would be fired until after this Novembers election.

It is inexcusable that they refuse to re-register everyone. To do anything less will allow thousands of illegal voters to remain on in the database.

While doorbelling this week I discovered 2 more duplicate voters. One of them had no idea that she was registered twice.

Posted by: Steven Pyeatt on October 12, 2005 08:03 PM
11. Logan doesn't have the education to have the faintest clue as to what he is doing.

He was told by Ron Sims to count every vote. Having had the good home training he did just that.

Posted by: JCM on October 12, 2005 08:12 PM
12. OMG! Did he REALLY SAY that no one has a vested interest in counting fatal pends???? Is he even thinking before he opens his mouth? Yes, they certainly made valliant attempts to quash any mention of the fatal pends being counted. I was visualizing Logan with a pair of hands over his mouth, eyes and ears, monkey that he is!

Posted by: katomar on October 12, 2005 08:22 PM
13. He did use the word "vested", but I think he was reaching for "vetted"

Posted by: Stefan Sharkansky on October 12, 2005 08:40 PM
14. Just another example of the corruption and fraud that was perpetrated against all the candidates in last year's election.

Logan should have been out on his ear months ago. Only reason Sims is keeping him is that Sims hopes to steal another election before having to admit his mistakes. Logan is an embarrassment to the county, untrained, uneducated and nothing but a flunky.

Fatal pends is anoher reason why all Washington voters should be re-registered, not just KC. SAme with mailing of military ballots. Any indication that military ballots have been mailed yet for the upcoming general election?

Posted by: Clean House on October 12, 2005 08:46 PM
15. Just another example of the corruption and fraud that was perpetrated against all the candidates in last year's election.

Logan should have been out on his ear months ago. Only reason Sims is keeping him is that Sims hopes to steal another election before having to admit his mistakes. Logan is an embarrassment to the county, untrained, uneducated and nothing but a flunky.

Fatal pends is anoher reason why all Washington voters should be re-registered, not just KC. SAme with mailing of military ballots. Any indication that military ballots have been mailed yet for the upcoming general election?

Posted by: Clean House on October 12, 2005 08:46 PM
16. Just another example of the corruption and fraud that was perpetrated against all the candidates in last year's election.

Logan should have been out on his ear months ago. Only reason Sims is keeping him is that Sims hopes to steal another election before having to admit his mistakes. Logan is an embarrassment to the county, untrained, uneducated and nothing but a flunky.

Fatal pends is anoher reason why all Washington voters should be re-registered, not just KC. SAme with mailing of military ballots. Any indication that military ballots have been mailed yet for the upcoming general election?

Posted by: Clean House on October 12, 2005 08:47 PM
17. Just another example of the corruption and fraud that was perpetrated against all the candidates in last year's election.

Logan should have been out on his ear months ago. Only reason Sims is keeping him is that Sims hopes to steal another election before having to admit his mistakes. Logan is an embarrassment to the county, untrained, uneducated and nothing but a flunky.

Fatal pends is anoher reason why all Washington voters should be re-registered, not just KC. SAme with mailing of military ballots. Any indication that military ballots have been mailed yet for the upcoming general election?

Posted by: Clean House on October 12, 2005 08:47 PM
18. Sorry about duplicate postings. Computer was hung up and did not realize all had gone through.

Posted by: Clean House on October 12, 2005 08:49 PM
19. The only sound bite of Logan on the radio today was "witch hunt."

They've got to hold this clown car act together for another couple of weeks to cook yet another election.

Posted by: Andy on October 12, 2005 09:00 PM
20. My sound isn't working, but I DID hear a piece of this on the radio, and Dean Logan sounded more flustered and upset than I've ever heard him publicly be. He has been CAUGHT WITH HIS PANTS DOWN and it is REALLY upsetting him!

Fire Logan. Fire Huennekens (we knew HE was full of it for quite some time).

Fire Joly.

Fire Carlos.

Fire Egan.

And most of all, fire that Sims dude. All of these people are full of beans and worse. We have HAD it with these excuse-makers. We know their game. THEY know their game (they just won't talk about it unless forced to). They counted hundreds and really into the thousands of illegal ballots, left too many others uncounted, and truly did all kinds of disgraceful other things like produce misleading ballot reports. Shame on all of the 'investigative groups' hired by the council and appointed by Sims for totally glossing over the worst of this gutrot!!! It really IS as bad as everyone thought.
Thank you, Shark, for looking into it and really being the one trying to bring some kind of accountability to these people. Everyone at the 'official' level has to take blame for this. Council people, the entire elections office, Sims, the prosecutors, the U.S. attorney for closing his eyes to all this.
ENOUGH! Why do we have to put up with this??

WHO TOLD Logan to count those Fatal Pends? Was it his own idea? Or Sims'? Or Phillips'?

STOP THE CORRUPTION!!! NOW!!!!

Posted by: Realist on October 12, 2005 09:08 PM
21. To the rest of the state of Washington: I hope you all read Stefan's article and read it well. THIS is what King County did to the rest of you. THIS is how they stole your vote without you even knowing it. They just cancelled them all out with a bunch of c-r-a-p votes that were double, illegal, non-citizen and practically fabricated (who DID all those nearly 1,000 voterless ballots belong to?????? We still haven't been told)

King County stole this election from the whole state. It stinks and it cannot be tolerated any more. Our taxes pay for this shoddy operation. Fair-minded citizens and all the candidates deserve so much better.

Posted by: Michele on October 12, 2005 09:15 PM
22. What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance. Would any of these folks be still pouring over individual ballot envelopes if Rossi had narrowly won? I doubt it. Do any of them seem to care that there are far more devious plots afoot that affect them in much larger and more direct ways than anything Dean Logan ever said or did? Apparently not.

It is fun to hear you all rant and rave though.

Posted by: Unkl Witz on October 12, 2005 11:02 PM
23. Well....This is it!

This is the time that the KC Republican Party and The Seattle Times - Keith Ervin, will either shine.....or forever drop the ball.

Sims and Logan are going wobbly! They have both been busy with damage control this week and it's only the beginning of their exposure....

Right now, Ron Sims is wetting his pants over yesterday's Seattle Times story linking a Southwest Airlines lobbyist to his campaign staff... Just hours after that story ran - Sims called an impromptu press conference to kill the proposed Southwest Airline bid for Boeing airfield! Timing is everything....

Logan has been caught red-handed personally accepting illegal votes and disenfranchising legal votes...He has been caught in his lie about purging duplicate voter registrations...

Their house of cards is just beginning to painfully fall apart...

Posted by: Deborah on October 12, 2005 11:10 PM
24. "What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance. Would any of these folks be still pouring over individual ballot envelopes if Rossi had narrowly won? "


Well gee, knuckle head if you and your ilk hadn't stolen the election we might have an answer to that question.


Posted by: dave on October 12, 2005 11:24 PM
25. Unkl Witz,

What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance.

What you are doing is akin to attacking the messenger and ignoring the message. Your comment is toward the reaction of the message and not the substance of it.

Would any of these folks be still pouring over individual ballot envelopes if Rossi had narrowly won? I doubt it.

This may be true for some, but it is still irrelevant. What ever the catalyst is that brings about exposure is not as important as what is exposed and its validity.

Do any of them seem to care that there are far more devious plots afoot that affect them in much larger and more direct ways than anything Dean Logan ever said or did?

This is clearly debatable. There may well be more devious and larger plots afoot, but the average citizen’s voice as to those that govern them (locally, statewide, & nationally) is their vote. These votes are counted locally.

Posted by: RG on October 12, 2005 11:44 PM
26. Fatal Pend.

Dean Logan's career is Fatal, Pending the voters and media examining the evidence that Stefan just keeps coming out showing that at best, he made very little care of going through provisionals and absentee ballots and at worst, he was party to some very deceitful, possibly even criminal oversight.

I won't be satisfied until Dean Logan is out of King County Elections.

Posted by: Jeff B. on October 12, 2005 11:47 PM
27. So I think if we read between the lines, that Ol' Witz agrees that Dean Logan is running a corrupt outfit down there at KCE, and that they in fact did try to manufacture a result.

Why else would Logan go through known illegal ballots? If Gregoire was winning, I doubt he'd have felt the need to do that.

I WONDER WHEN IN THE PROCESS DID LOGAN ORDER THOSE ILLEGAL BALLOTS COUNTED?? DURING THE FIRST COUNT? During the first recount? During the second? Would be very interesting....
And they say there was no fraud down at KCE.....Bull!

Posted by: Michele on October 12, 2005 11:55 PM
28. Oh, they'll cook it again Andy.

Posted by: BananaLand (aka Iguana) on October 13, 2005 12:04 AM
29. UnklWitz crowed, "What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance."

So, how selective are you, Witzie? Is this merely "perceived," or does Stefan have photographic proof? You don't seem to have any counter arguments to what Stefan has found, other than to attack the messenger. Why is that?
Is it government misfeasance/malfeasance? Oh, that's right--it's merely the fault of a few misguided idiots, rather than the actual government. The government is blameless in allthis. So, we can just fire those losers, and all will be well in the Emerald Empire once more.

"Would any of these folks be still pouring [sic] over individual ballot envelopes if Rossi had narrowly won? I doubt it."
Okay, let me follow the logic: if Rossi had won, these people would not have been going over these things. And because they would not have done so, what they are doing here is useless and drawing false connections.
Just in case you really can't see (and are not being deliberately obtuse), here is what is wrong with your statement: what "they" are doing here has no relation at all to what "they" would or would not have done if Rossi had won.
If Rossi had won, would the Dems have done the same thing? Oh, wait, Rossi *did* win--twice--and what did the Dems do? Hmm...

"Do any of them seem to care that there are far more devious plots afoot that affect them in much larger and more direct ways than anything Dean Logan ever said or did? Apparently not."
Enlighten us, o Smug One. Clearly the Illuminati, or worse, the UN, are hatching a secret plot that you know about, and hint about in dark whispers.
But again, your logic is lacking. It is silly to say that just because there are "more devious plots afoot" that we should ignore this one.
That's like saying, in an analogy, "Well, the tires on my car are dangerously bald, but the check engine light keeps coming on, and that's a more serious, mysterious problem, so I'd better track that down first before I ever get around to replacing those slick, treadless tires."

"It is fun to hear you all rant and rave though."
Too bad we can never take you seriously, Witzie. You just like to mouth off instead of contributing to the discussion--much like Sims, Logan, et al.
You're not working for them, are you?

Posted by: pseudotsuga on October 13, 2005 12:32 AM
30. "I WONDER WHEN IN THE PROCESS DID LOGAN ORDER THOSE ILLEGAL BALLOTS COUNTED?? DURING THE FIRST COUNT? During the first recount? During the second? Would be very interesting...."

Michele,

That is an excellent question!
The answer could be so damning to Logan and Sims... I wonder if the answer can be found in Carlos Webb's deposition?

Posted by: Deborah on October 13, 2005 12:33 AM
31. Yes, Unkl Witz, there ARE bigger plots afoot....the black helicopters are circling--but only over your house, apparently. moooo-ahh-hah...

Posted by: Misty on October 13, 2005 12:54 AM
32. Ok,further reading of the article shows that the Fatal Pends were counted at the request of Logan and Huennekens before the first certification. They must've been one of those piles of 'found' ballots, eh?
I sent an email to Mrs. Gregoire demanding she ask AG McKenna to do an investigation. Will she or won't she? (Do we even have to wonder?)

Posted by: Michele on October 13, 2005 01:57 AM
33. Logan - "We've made huge strides forwared, and the average voter out there recognizes that..."

Some of them twice or more.

Huge strides being an audit that would make anyone who's audited any process fall out of their chair laughing.

Posted by: Grog on October 13, 2005 02:09 AM
34. Uncle Rich Wtiz,
What are the devious plots? Come out with the truth and confess, you will feel better once you do. As for the illegal ballots that were processed, how can you condone it? They could have been Rossi ballots, would you still complain? Was it okay when someone broke into the Republican HQ here in Washington, three times before the election? How loud would you have screamed if someone had broken into the Democratic HQ????????

Posted by: sgmmac on October 13, 2005 04:22 AM
35. The only hypocrite that even comes close to this site is you half-Witz.

You say things, but you won't stand behind them.

You are a coward, a liar, and a fraud.

Go away!

Posted by: alphabet soup on October 13, 2005 07:10 AM
36. What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance.

Nobody need justify outrage at corruption, Wizz. Why don't you justify your consistent defense of corruption?

Posted by: South County on October 13, 2005 07:12 AM
37. Why does Logan keep saying that Stefan is withholding information about double voters? The proof is right here on this website! I have seen two ballots from what was clearly one voter. I really don't get this.

Posted by: Michael on October 13, 2005 08:08 AM
38. So Sims has a Southwest Lobbyist on his campaign staff. I figured it had to be something.

Here is something else to think about. Who from SW, Alaska etc. gave money to Sims re-election? Siegal is good at finding that kind of stuff out. Maybe he will run with it.

Reminds me of the take-over/attempted take-over of the Dinner Train for a trail. Why was that done? Because during the time the trail would be underconstruction water and sewer lines could be laid to support highrise high income condos in the Rainer Valley with view of the Lake. Remember that there is already a parallel trail to the Dinner Train route just a few blocks from there. The valley is the last lakeside neighborhood in Seattle that has not gentrified. The Bellevue highrises are underpressurized. Can't have the same problem in the Valley. Thus the need to run a profitable business out of business and take the land/rail route for water and sewer lines.

Condo developers make bigger campaign donations than wait staff on the dinner train. And with the Kelo case and the 14th Amendment in Sims pocket the developers in WA cannnot be denied the same 'rights' (powers) as the developers in CN. Out with the poor and the dinner train and in with the Urban Village in the Valley and in with Developers campaign comtributions.

Follow the money.

Posted by: Jericho on October 13, 2005 08:47 AM
39. As for Sims and Logan the Seattle MSM will lose their final measure of credibility if they do not bring the heat. Heat delayed is heat denied. Waiting until after the vote will be too late for the MSM to save their soul.

Posted by: Jericho on October 13, 2005 08:50 AM
40. Off topic but very interesting. The City of New Orleans is named after the City of Or'leon in France (Orleans). That was the first city which Joan of Arc conquered. Joan of Arc reported that she had been whispered to by three spiritual beings. One reportedly the Archangel Michael. The other two were reportedly Saint Catherine and Saint Margeret.

A derivation of Catherine is Katrina.
A derivation of Margeret is Rita.

Katrina and Rita. Interesting, eeh?

Must be George Bush's fault.

Posted by: Jericho on October 13, 2005 09:22 AM
41. And they're all only six separations from Kevin Bacon ;'}

(thanks for the LOL, Jericho!)

Posted by: alphabet soup on October 13, 2005 09:24 AM
42. Why is Logan STILL in play? Why hasn't he been fired long ago?! Every paycheck he continues to collect is another slap in the voters' faces and tacit approval of mediocrity and apathy. Shame.

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on October 13, 2005 09:31 AM
43. It appears that the MSM went into a bunker mentality nine months or so ago, and is doing all it can to black out any consideration of evidence of malfeasance by Dean Logan's office. Bravo to Stefan for getting out such information as he has (photographic proof, milords Times and P-I, what more is needed?) but it's a drop in the bucket as far as the general public goes, and the MSM knows it.

Cleaning up Dodge City hereabouts is tougher than we might imagine. Keep up the pressure on those editors and reporters.

Posted by: Hank Bradley on October 13, 2005 09:47 AM
44. I heard Dean Logan say that the double registered voters should be prosecuted. uh huh, how's about we prosecute Dean Logan for COUNTING THEM?!?!?

Posted by: chardonnay on October 13, 2005 09:47 AM
45. LOGAN ACCUSES THE SHARK OF AN AMBUSH????
LOL
what a cry baby he is.

Posted by: chardonnay on October 13, 2005 09:56 AM
46. Uncle...yes, if Rossi had won I would still be fighting for election reform and an investigation of KC elections. That is the fundamental difference between you and me. I truely believe the citizens of Washington state are entitled to fair and legal elections (no matter which political party wins). You, on the other hand, have no understanding of the basic concepts of right and wrong, so you don't care as long as your candidate wins.

Due to this lack in your character, you somehow feel compelled to frequent S/P and insert bitchy rhetoric into the discussions. But just as the Tinman in the Wizard of Oz eventually gets at heart, we hold out hope that you will eventually get a brain.

Posted by: dl on October 13, 2005 10:01 AM
47. Logan accuses the GOP of "grandstanding" and holds out to them that they should have worked with the county like some citizens who responded to the call by Logan et al that he woulnd't do his job, but you can if you want - though we will make that difficult for you.

Some citizens??? Like Stepan? Oh, that is right Stephan has "an agenda."

But of course Logan is a public servant. Serving himself at the expense of the public.

Time for the torches and pitchforks yet?

Posted by: Jericho on October 13, 2005 10:16 AM
48. Logan's statement that this is just "pure politics" is really quite puzzling. I guess my response would be; "...yeah, and what business do you think you're in?". I suppose Dean Logan doesn't think it's politics when a governor's election is handed to the loser based on one county's total mismanagement of registration records, not to mention the further act of counting votes even when they are known to be from inelegible voters. Yeah Dean, it's politics alright, but you need to point the finger back at yourself.

Posted by: Scott C on October 13, 2005 10:19 AM
49. Sims intra-governmenal and AFSCME slogan for his re-election?

Sims like old times.

Nothing to look at here. Move along. Ignore those witch hunters and agenda driven peons.

More poor in King County. Oh darn. We'll see what we can do with that, uh, I mean about that. Of course our policies have not contributed to this sad state of affairs. It's George Bush's fault. Just ask Mayor Nagin.

Posted by: Jericho on October 13, 2005 10:20 AM
50. I just read SIMS bio, he's been on the KC council since 1985 and he's NEVER had a job outside government. WOW!!!

Also, Is Dean Logan trying to play the victim here? Oh, the poor democrats, are the republicans being mean again? LOL

Posted by: chardonnay on October 13, 2005 02:23 PM
51. Auntie no-Witz-

Yes, beware of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy....

We are out to get you!!!!

Posted by: Danno on October 13, 2005 03:54 PM
52. Where are the feds on this?!

Seems to me when a bunch of voters' rights were violated in the Deep South, the feds came in and did something about it!

Posted by: Bostonian on October 13, 2005 03:56 PM
53. Yes how dare we follow Judge Bridges advice and actually work to clean up the King County elections mess. How dare we!

Posted by: GS on October 14, 2005 12:40 AM
54. Ladies and gentlemen!!!

The fight of a lifetime! logan VS. the purple people eaters!!! who will win no one knows.

Posted by: Laurie on October 14, 2005 07:46 AM
55. or wants to know.

Posted by: andrew on October 14, 2005 07:47 AM
56. At least we would take cre of our friend Dean Logan.

Posted by: Laurie on October 14, 2005 07:50 AM
57. Is logan screwed? ya
Is logan dumb? ya
Is logan a dumbs**t? YA

Posted by: andrew on October 14, 2005 07:51 AM
58. With an acuracy level any bak would envy?!Hmmmmmmm.. another ? how long woul that bank be in business?!

Posted by: Laurie on October 15, 2005 11:23 AM
59. Rich Kiker (Unkl Witz),

Our resident liberal scholar says,

What I find so hypocritical about the S/P crowd is how selective they are in their rage against perceived government misfeasance. Would any of these folks be still pouring over individual ballot envelopes if Rossi had narrowly won? I doubt it. Do any of them seem to care that there are far more devious plots afoot that affect them in much larger and more direct ways than anything Dean Logan ever said or did? Apparently not. It is fun to hear you all rant and rave though.
Amazing.
It is hard to imagine how anyone could proudly say anything as obviously idiotic as this, but it is very amusing.
I want to sincerely and heartily thank Rich Kiker for (once again) making the effort.

These insipid comments serve immeasurably to help those who are on the fence clearly recognize and avoid the embarrassment of being associated with this type of irrational circular nonsense; the mindless, spiteful, petty, liberal agenda of a Democrat true believer.

Hang in there Rich, you're doin' good.

Posted by: Amused by liberal morons on October 15, 2005 09:20 PM
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