My earlier post with links to a database of salaries for public school teachers and other employees has generated a fair amount of discussion, including the question: “What the heck are you people posting these peoples salaries for??? Are you sick?”
Sick? No. But otherwise it’s a fair question that has been posed more politely by others, and deserves an answer.
First, public school teachers are public employees. Their salaries are paid by you and me and every other taxpayer in this state. It is not wrong for us to know what those salaries are. To the contrary: It’s good for us to know since that information allows us to make wise decisions about issues that will impact those salaries.
Second, it is accepted almost without question today that “teachers are underpaid.” Yet for most people this belief doesn’t stem from knowing the facts, but from hearing the claim so often repeated. The facts may cause us to question that belief, or they may strengthen it in our minds. Either way, we shouldn’t hide them.
Third, individual teachers have an important job. So important, in fact, that we must be able to measure the outcome of their work and judge the value of our investment in them. No one is suggesting you can put a price tag on a teacher’s love for her students, but love must be accompanied by a demonstrated ability to impart measurable knowledge and skills to those students. Teacher salaries should reflect that ability. We won’t know if they do until we know what they are.
Teachers have every right to make the case for higher salaries. We all have that right no matter what our chosen career. But the case should be made openly and honestly, with full facts disclosed to the people who must decide whether or not to trade their hard-earned dollars for our services.
Personally, I think there are a lot of excellent teachers out there who could command a higher salary if they weren’t locked into a union-brokered salary grid that says all teachers should be paid the same regardless of how well they do their jobs, how much demand exists for their subject matter, and how difficult the environment is in which they choose to work.
I also think there are poor teachers out there who shouldn’t be in our classrooms at all.
And I think it’s ok to say those things out loud.
I appreciate your clarification and I may not have stated my point of view nicely. But you cannot witch hunt individual teachers that YOU or anyone else do not feel are fit to teach in our public schools. You must consider all the external factors and demographics that go along with that. And frankly, that wasn't the point of the subject you posted that information for. It was about the "illegal" strike. There are quite a few people upset with your post and some consider it an abuse of public information. Most folks wouldn't go looking for salary information such as this without an agenda. Yours appears to be union busting. Not only that, the data you published included every bus driver, mechanic, janitor, teachers aid in those districts. And if you were to really be seeing things clearly, you would understand that if it wasn't for the teachers union, teacher pay would be far lower. We could all argue that the unions hold back the REALLY good teachers as far as pay is concerned. But consider the strides that have been made in Washington for teachers with Apple Awards and other incentives. I know several of them. In the end, had it not been for the unions, we would not have the quality AND quantity of teachers we have today to educate our children. Should the system be changed? Maybe. But that should be your discussion point and you should stick to the focus of your talking points. Simply publishing the salaries of your district in question would have sufficed. Public information obviously can be abused. You are proof. If you have an agenda, of which I am sure, state it out front instead of giving us this blanket of wish-wash as any responsible adult would... and probably learned from a teacher.
Posted by: Jimmy on September 2, 2005 06:27 PM
But you cannot witch hunt individual teachers that YOU or anyone else do not feel are fit to teach in our public schools.
That isn't a witch hunt. It's kind of ironic that you're lecturing Marsha about responsible speech and your statement is totally off the wall. Anyone can reasonably expect to have a respectful dialogue, but that statement isn't respectful or reasonable. We're just asking for accountability...after all, we are paying the bills.
In the end, had it not been for the unions, we would not have the quality AND quantity of teachers we have today to educate our children.
We all agree on that point. We do not agree on whether it's a good thing.
Your second point is open to debate. I have issues with unions but not across the board.
Posted by: jimmy on September 2, 2005 06:51 PMThanks for the additional insight into your motivation and ethical rationalization of making some fairly personal information about these good folks available for public consumption.
I think it would be a wonderful gesture of empathy for their obvious concerns and willingness to show that you're willing to put your own money where your mouth is by posting your own 2004 Federal Income Tax filings.
I look forward to reviewing it.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on September 2, 2005 07:24 PMWe shouldn't know how much public servants are paid? Get the F out of here. Go to www.dfas.mil and you can account for every cent of every military member's income, but you don't see the military going to cover all that up now do you?
The public has EVERY right and the RESPONSIBILITY to know these things before they go make bleeding-heart election decisions that take money out of the public coffers (and therefore out of YOUR pockets).
Now, somebody said something about the "quality AND quantity" of teachers in Washington? Sounds like Soviet propaganda to me.
Posted by: Aaron on September 2, 2005 07:56 PMIs the data base made available online by EFF WA any different from what would be provided to any person on request?
Posted by: Micajah on September 2, 2005 07:59 PMAnd no, I'm not going to tell you how much I earn because I work for one of those evil corporation "thingies". I'm not a public servant...teachers are.
Posted by: MattMan on September 2, 2005 08:01 PMWe pay their salaries.
We are entitled to know if their salaries are commensurate with their work product.
If they can whine, complain and hold our childrens education/school year hostage because they feel they are underpaid then we are entitled to judge whether or not that is true and to do that we need all the facts.
Keep holding them accountable, Marsha, in every way, shape and form you can find. Expose their hypocrisy and debunk their lies.
The very best thing that could happen to public education is to get the unions and the feds OUT of our childrens education!
And Aaron, if you really believe that I suggest you try educating your child (if you have found a mate) in a communist (or former) country. Big wake up call there buddy. If you think ID is a good idea, what until you get a load of what they have to offer.
Now that is not to say that former communist countries have not made things better but imagine living and learing in the former.
Read my post to Marsha and you understand where I am coming from. This is a matter of ethics that were not applied. Yes, the info was public. What you do with it from there on has the potential to lack objectivity. As was this case.
Posted by: jimmy on September 2, 2005 08:45 PMYou all have a great night. I am pooped!!! Maybe some other subject will get me all fired up someday :)
bless....
Jimmy
Posted by: jimmy on September 2, 2005 08:55 PMJimmy, welcome to the new world. We here believe that government is the SERVANT of the people, and not its master. We threw off the chains of abusive, corrupt government hundreds of years ago, and we'll keep throwing them off every time we feel oppressed in the slightest. You may think you are doing us a favor by treating us like sheeple, but the minute you think you have some control over us, you have been corrupted and no longer deserve any active role in our government.
That means, in plain English, that teachers and every other paid employee of the government, and every elected or appointed official, are the SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE. They have no right to raise their hand against the people. They have no right to try and misinform them or hide under the cover of shadows and darkness. No, servants who do this are discovered, punished, and expelled.
I hope every teacher feels this impressed upon their mind. Those parents that walk in their classroom are the board of directors and CEO of the operation. Those folks who don't have children in the schools but who pay taxes nonetheless are equally so.
Anyone that acts against public disclosure and against public accountability should be thrown away in the slammer. I say this because you would say the same thing if President Bush tried to cover up what is happening in the White House beyond what is necessary to prosecute a war. I say this because in our own state constitution it is encoded that government is accountable to the people and the people demand that government be open and honest about its dealings.
Go ahead and say that government shouldn't be open and honest and fair, but if you move one finger to make it happen, I hope you end up in front of a judge (elected by the people) and a jury of 12 people. I hope your trial is broadcast and published into the public records. I hope every word that falls out of your mouth at that trial is transcribed to be preserved eternally. I would love to see you defend the supposed right of the government to pull the wool over the eyes of the people.
Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on September 2, 2005 10:40 PMI am glad you brought this topic up because I personally was questioning your actions on the other thread.
My question to you would be, how difficult would it have been for you or EFF to alter the list so that the names where replaced with initials or only job titles and school appeared, or whatever combo there of???
Most of the teachers on that list did not threaten to strike. Most of them have not run around complaining about how much they make. Even if it is public into, I just still wonder if another way existed to make the point without comprimising the innocent.
That being said, I did look up several of my former teachers. Some of them deserve to make 10 times what they are making, some deserve to make 1/10 as much.
We need to stop rewarding longevity and start rewarding productivity.
I am glad to hear that you did at least struggle slightly with this and thought about it before doing it. That is what seperates you from Goldy, who is threatening to out a rumored closeted homosexual legislator just to help his cause.
Posted by: T.J. on September 2, 2005 10:49 PMWhy are they underpaid? You have to look at it this way. Those who decide to be governed by a certain set of rules expect the natural result of those rules. Those who follow the rule that "the truth will set you free" accordingly pursue the truth and accordingly become free.
We already know the secret to obtaining a maximum price for goods or services. It is called capitalism. The way this system works is very well understood. People work according to their will and the will of their employer. They are paid what they are willing to be paid and what the employer is willing to pay. If you live under these rules, you get paid a lot of money. All free-market employees end up becoming well-paid. Why? Because employees in this system seek to maximize their value to their employer. And the also seek to find new potential employers who are willing to pay more.
Those who live under the false idea that they deserve a job or they deserve a certain level of pay or they deserve a certain level of security independent of their value to their employer end up getting paid much less. Why? They do not end up becoming more valuable to their employer. Their employer ends up being bled dry by them. Eventually, the employer can no longer employ them. This is the union mindset. It is wrong and destructive. Exaggerated, this is the same mindset of socialist and communist nations, and we know what happens to these countries.
If teachers saw their only chance to higher pay in maximizing their value, then they would be pursuing those activities that would maximize their values. As it is, they are not. They are instead pursuing goals and certificates that aren't the most effective ways of maximizing their value. They do this because of the financial rewards. Will they necessarily become a better teacher because they get a PhD? No. But they do it anyway.
So they end up becoming sub-par on the whole. There is also another problem. We cannot pay teachers what they are worth. If we find an extremely valuable teacher, we can't grant them a pay raise simply because they are worth it and others are willing to pay more. No, we have to pay them much less. And we can't cut or reduce the salaries of those who are worth less than their paycheck.
The minute teachers throw off the union and its perverted concepts of how the labor market really works, and the sooner they adopt free market principles, the faster we will have higher-paid, better-quality teachers. It will happen almost overnight.
Posted by: Jonathan Gardner on September 2, 2005 10:52 PMThe catch is that we have to be able to cut out the dead wood. Fear of litigation is the problem with firing the poor performers. I know of situations where school districts have had the support of the union and still did not fire the teacher for fear of a lawsuit.
Solution: Unions-teachers option to join, hiring/firing at will of school district, legislature needs to pass a bill protecting school districts from litigation(to a point), give supervisors the ability to nominate performance bonuses, no more illegal strikes.
Posted by: CommonSense Coug on September 2, 2005 11:01 PMThat being said, we had a corrupt election and you know what happened? The people revolted and dissolved the government. We had a transitional government after a few days which was finally voted on and finished being reinstated as of yesterday (with the appointment of Felix Kulov as Prime Minister). While things are gradually moving towards more economic freedom and development, it is a landlocked country with mostly textile, agricultural, hydroelectric, and mining (gold) industries.
You want to know what happens when you keep people in the dark about what their public MASTERS are doing? Come on over. I'll save some room at my house for you. You can see the effects on people's live and mindsets first hand.
Posted by: Aaron on September 2, 2005 11:40 PMHow are our results in the WASL? How our dropout rate?
In prior posts, I've shown were teachers are incredibly high paid for their part time job.
And now, they threaten an illegal strike?
What about the ethics of THAT?
I have no sympathy for teachers. They work 182 days a year making between 200 to 400 PER DAY.
That's exceptionally well paid in my book. These clowns KNEW what they were going to make when they made the decision to become teachers. If it isn't enough... then they need to quit.
But I am SICK of their whining!
Posted by: Who.... me? on September 3, 2005 12:19 AMOne, I agree with you on the whining. It needs to stop.
Two, since when does the fact that you took a job eliminate your right to ask for more money?
Answer me honestly here, have you EVER asked for a raise? Why shouldn't teachers be able to feel underpaid and ask for a raise like everyone else?
Three, I don't think you've shown anything about teacher's pay. You've made many claims, most of which have been rebutted in my observation.
Posted by: Calvin A on September 3, 2005 07:51 AMA recently retired Snoco Superintendent showed me that his highest paid teacher's W-2 had a bigger number on it than his did, even though the teacher worked a 180 day contract, and he worked 260 days. That is the data they don't want you to see.
The new reality is what folks believe, and they believe this. My folks were both teachers, and I spent time on the faculty at WSU. Also, 13 years as a school board member. Only when we examine the WHOLE compensation scheme, equate it to the hours worked, will we see how well teachers are paid, save those in the very lower reaches of the salary schedule, who ARE underpaid.
That is the difficulty of attracting the best and brightest, low starting pay. Where else, for the same time commitment and output, is the most senior person paid over twice the least senior? Show me one other union pay scale where this disparity exists!
Teachers say they work a lot, and maybe so, but why will they sit across the bargaining table, and try to bargain for a 6 hour work day, instead of 7, when they claim to work 10?
Why do they resist going "full time", 2080 hours a year, less vacations, if it is a full time job as they claim?
Why do they discredit anyone who attempts to point this out?
If the sheeples only knew, and rejected the pabulum fed them by the minions of Satan running the WEA.
Posted by: The Geezer on September 3, 2005 08:17 AMHaving said that, they did so well that I learned enough to earn double their salaries without having to ever incur a college loan, attend continuing education, or join a union. So, in fact, they did me a service in helping me avoid the costly mistakes they made.
For that, I will always appreciate them.
For that, I say continue their salary growth pattern of the past 30 years. They bought into the program and into the power structure that brought them these wages, and they must accept the consequences. Their noble, martyr-like statements for their purpose 'for the kids' notwithstanding, they chose this path and the resultant results.
:)
Posted by: potshot on September 3, 2005 09:02 AMI am still groggy... didn't someone laugh at my grammer earlier??? :)
cheers
Posted by: jimmy on September 3, 2005 09:03 AMhttp://lbloom.net/
has information on state salaries from 1995, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2003, and 2005 including university employees. There are also postings for city employees. All of this information is public and was obtained through freedom of information requests.
Posted by: gail on September 3, 2005 10:03 AMI wouldn't publish the salaries of individual teachers in a newspaper -- unless they became involved in a controversy that made the salaries relevant -- but I do think the salaries should be publicly available. I think Marsha has done us a service in this case.
Posted by: Jim Miller on September 3, 2005 10:10 AMIf you’re mad at Marsha for making PUBLIC school teacher salaries available, what are you going to do to the state’s Office of Financial Management for making the name, pay band, and salary available for every single one of the state’s PUBLIC employees available on its website?
http://www.ofm.wa.gov/persdetail/2005/pdcontents.htm
Seems to me your real complaint should be with the OSPI for not making this PUBLIC information available on its website and leaving this public service to EFF. Had Marsha included the home contact numbers and addresses of teachers, then maybe you’d have a point, but not their compensation.
If you don’t want your employer to know what you are individually making, get another job.
You should link to you home blog from this site to help us get a better feel from where you are coming from.
http://www.mccranium.org
Marsha has made it clear where she is coming from (accountability for the billions in tax dollars we are putting into the K-12 system).
Your analogy is right on.
A few years ago, we had a huge controversy here in Whitman County involving the teachers. They wanted to cut the school day by one hour on Wednesdays so they could have an extra hour for "planning."
The publisher of the local newspaper printed a scathing editorial against this. We had teachers and teachers' husbands coming in and threatening to jump over the counter and flatten him. It was quite a scandal. Some teachers actually cancelled their subscriptions. A few months later, this same group of teachers sent us a picture of themselves with their diplomas for receiving their master’s degrees. Of course, they wanted it printed in the newspaper.
Around this same time, the publisher had a dentist appointment on a Wednesday afternoon at about 3 p.m. He met one of these "dedicated" teachers on the sidewalk, running errands. He automatically looked at the teacher, and then looked at his watch. No words were spoken. Every Wednesday we see the buses go by about 2:45 p.m. Every Wednesday we see a majority of teachers drive by around 3 or 3:15 p.m. "Planning" my fanny.
I took the printout of Colfax schoolteacher’s salaries to my publisher. He is considering printing it in the newspaper. I think he should. A lot of fine, hardworking people in this county do not have any idea how much these teachers make.
That thought had crossed my mind. But really, my beef here was how and where it was being used. I think the OSPI is another discussion.
Posted by: jimmy on September 3, 2005 12:09 PMThere is a huge difference, a HUGE difference, between ASKING... and DEMANDING.
"Asking" is one thing... holding our children hostage by having an illegal strike is quite another. LYING about how much you're paid.... playing the "underpaid" card for A PART TIME JOB.
So, PLEASE... USE THE PRECISE TERMINOLOGY. Soft-selling it as "asking" when it is something completely different doesn't help. It kinda reminds me of the lies the pro 728 and 732 side told us... you know... the ones where they guaranteed their extortion wasn't going to require a tax increase?
And, BTW, your post has rebutted nothing about my "claims" on the matter of teacher's pay. These "claims" speak for themselves. Run the numbers and show us where I'm wrong.
Posted by: Who.... me? on September 3, 2005 12:30 PM2. THE ONLY TIME YOU ARE WORKING IS WHEN YOU'RE IN THE CLASSROOM. AND YOU ARE IN THE CLASSROOM 182 DAYS PER YEAR.
3. You are PAID for your "continuing education." When you achieve the mandatory master's degree (which, come to think of it, you ALSO knew about in advance) you get a higher rate of pay.
Your "continuing education" is NOT "work."
I stand by my position on this issue, and to you and any other overworked or put upon teacher, I again ask you to quit.
There is nothing wrong with the pay teachers receive in this state: that's proven by the fact that there are no shortages of teachers in our schools.
Check out a few big city websites around the state. See how many vacancies there are... or better yet, check 2 months from now... and see how many openings are available.
If the pay was so low... so unacceptable, then these sites would be covered with openings... classes wouldn't get taught... kids would be going without.
Right now, the fact is that the only time kids "go without" is when their teachers dump them to take their misspelled protest signs down to the Capital during the school week... or when their teachers teach their students a lesson by breaking the law when they go on strike.
Posted by: Who.... me? on September 4, 2005 12:03 AMAnswer: Hell yes. WE employ them, and We have the right to know what we're paying them, and whether or not they are EARNING what they get. If they don't like it, they can quit and start teaching in private schools (although they won't be able to suckle at the golden teat if they do).
Question 2: Do our state'e teachers deserve what they get now?
Answer: H-E-L-L no! Want to see why? View these two reports, one of which was submitted by our own worthless state Superintensdent of Public Instruction (a worthless-but-overpaid WEA whore if ever one existed):
1: http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/Washington.pdf
(Thomas Fordham Foundation, February 2005. Report on State English and Math Standards [Washington section].)
2: http://www.effwa.org/pdfs/Remediation2004.pdf
(State Board for Community & Technical Colleges, Superintendent of Public Instruction, and Higher Education Coordinating Board, December 2004. Pre-college (Remedial) Course-Taking in Washington Postsecondary Education: Causes and Solutions.)
If these greedy union whiners (Machinist union slobs included) deserve anything, it is to be promptly and summarily sacked.
Posted by: ERNurse on September 4, 2005 06:19 PMThe years in Nebraska were when the NEA had just unionized secondary schools and colleges. So salaries improved, but, you know? That was about the exact time Johnny stopped learning how to read and write, and do his math. This happened all over the country. Everybody muses about how kids stopped learning the 3R's, but they fail to link it to the timing of Unionization. The overlap is exact.
Posted by: Keb on September 5, 2005 04:51 PMPublic Information...
In the age of the Internet, many things are "public" which otherwise wouldn't be.
One of the main reasons I read this weblog is because it encourages transparency in Washington government. Marsha's post is categorically ethical. The information posted may be sensitive, but it is by no means private.
I'm tired of hearing that teacher's are all categorically underpaid. The infromation provided by SP and EFF is a long overdue response to the outright lies, distortions, and omissions of teachers and their unions.
Education is a hot topic in Washington these days. As it should be!
And for those of you who have cooked up some secret agenda at work, here's what I think:
The only agenda I see is that SP and EFF are committed to exposing corruption, increasing choice, and encouraging transparency in government. Keep up the good work!
Posted by: Patrick E. Bell on September 5, 2005 08:27 PMThe way I see it, many of the folks here beleive the motivation was to "tell teachers to stop whining about pay". Reality may well suggest their agenda is to deconstruct public education. Let's have a look see at their donor list and decide if that is true?
Cough it up EFF.
publishing the specific name of each teacher and how much they make, while it might be legal, is sick. it's sick. literally sick. and the fact that you think you're entitled to this detailed amount of information about your neighbors speaks highly upon what type of person you are, what type of life you lead, and what type of morality you follow.
i have no problem with "XXXX" out names and providing a list of salaries. i have no problem discussing very specific points of teacher's salaries, of what they do, of how many years they've worked and etc. i have no problem discussing median income level, benefit level, hours works and on and on.
however, linking that information to specific people is uncalled for.
you may have the legal right to this information, but you have no moral right to it. you have think you do, but you don't.
Posted by: grznt on September 7, 2005 04:10 PMAnother fact that should go almost without saying is that salaries are just a part of a total compensation package, and that you cannot put teacher compensation in its proper perspective without looking at its benefits components, too.
Posted by: jsa on September 7, 2005 06:17 PMi said, "there is a vast difference between knowing the salary of highly visible publicly elected servants like Patty Murray and knowing the specific salary of your neighbor down the street who teaches choir at your local school."
local school teachers are not publicly elected officials.
yes, you pay their salary. yes you have the RIGHT to know what teachers are getting paid. and, yes, the waters can be murky as to where the line should be drawn between your local teachers, your local city council, your fireman, your state senator and your rep. from the u.s. house.
what makes you think you're entitled to this information? further more, what GOOD does knowing this information do?
like i said in the past, i have no problem discussing very specific points of teacher's salaries. i have no problem disclosing how much teachers are getting paid.
roll out a huge excel sheet with specifics of educational background, years teaching, benefit packages, what specific job they do for the school district... be my guest. i have no problem with that.
i DO have a problem with linking specific salary information to a specific name.
it speaks highly as to what type of person you are when you think you're entitled to such information.
Posted by: grznt on September 8, 2005 10:10 AM