"Trucks to pose as trains in test on I-90"
Can the Interstate 90 floating bridge be made safe enough to support light rail?The issue is not whether the bridge can support the weight of trains, but whether region's taxpayers are willing to waste billions more on boondoggles that don't accomplish very much.
Sound Transit has budgeted about $700,000 for the testDoesn't anybody in Olympia understand that throwing money at this sort of nonsense instead of investing in sensible transportation improvements is the main motivation for I-912? Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at August 12, 2005 12:16 PM | Email This
I am sick and tired of good money being spent on all sorts of experiments for public transportation. It seems all the money these days is being spent on improvements for Sound Transit, something I am loath to use. Hey idiots at WA DOT, how about just providing more general purpose lanes!
A more conspiratorial side of me suggests that the reason for this happening on 9/11 is that there is some evidence of a terrorist plot involving the I-90 tunnel...
I think they do get it but they just don't give a rip! It looks like wasting taxpayer money is fun and easy to do.
Message to lawmakers:
"Light-rail" has been a pseudonym for "graft" since Day-1. It wont work here. Get over your lust to socially engineer Washingtonians. Focus on solving the problem. Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. Increase Lane capacity. (They say you have to say something 7 times before people hear the message.)
Jan 6, 03
Question: Shelter seems to be a theme this week, no doubt because of the season. John Hasty rides Sound Transit's Sounder train from Tacoma to Tukwila.
"The Sounder frequently arrives at the intermediate stations late, leaving passengers to stand and wait in the cold and rain for 10, 15 and up to 30 minutes," John says. He adds that the rain protection at the Puyallup, Kent and Sumner stations is a "scandal."
John goes on to call for a signal at each intermediate station to alert passengers when the train is less than 5 minutes away, so they can take shelter in their cars or elsewhere until the train is close to arriving.
"This suggestion has been made numerous times in the two-plus years that Sounder has been running," John says. "It does not sound unreasonable to me."
Answer: Sound Transit spokesman Lee Somerstein says the agency is working on a plan to install variable message signs or audio equipment that can announce real-time information about train arrival, service delays and other topics. Work on installing this feature could begin at the end of this year.
At present, if there is a delay, security officers at the stations are supposed to let waiting passengers know.
But Somerstein says the train is seldom late. "We do have every service delay on record. Our on-time performance is pretty impressive as a rule, more than 95 percent."
But December brought more delays than usual because of construction activity, he says.
Somerstein is surprised by John's complaints about the weather protection at the Puyallup, Kent and Sumner stations.
"Those are permanent stations and those do have covers," he says.
But often customers choose to line up outside the cover of the shelters to get the best seats on the train, Somerstein says.
Feb 2, 04
Question: Getting There readers have long memories and, as we've often noted, are keenly observant.
Comes again John Hasty to remind us that a year ago he questioned why Sound Transit could not install "a simple signal device, such as a red/green light" to signal riders of the Sounder commuter rail when the train was about to arrive.
The red light would signal that the train was more than five minutes away, and the green light would indicate it would arrive within five minutes, Hasty proposes. This would allow riders to "remain warm and dry in their personal vehicles until the train was near." Otherwise, they must stand in the rain and cold for up to 30 minutes, he says.
Sound Transit observed last year that its trains were on time 95 percent of the time, but John says that's not a reason to dismiss the need for signals. "Would you find it OK to arrive at work sopping wet once every two weeks?" he asks.
Sound Transit said a year ago that it was working on a plan for message signs and might begin installation by the end of the year.
John returns now to ask whether Sound Transit has kept its promise.
Answer: The short answer, John, is: not yet.
Sound Transit plans to install "a complete station-area passenger information system and closed-circuit TV" later this year, says Sounder spokesman Lee Somerstein. The system will inform passengers of the next arriving train as well as general customer and safety information.
The installation was delayed while Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway, which owns the tracks, installs fiber optic communications, Somerstein says.
Question: David Nelson complains about access to the new Atlantic Street overpass that links the waterfront to Fourth Avenue South and Interstate 5. In particular, he is complaining about the left turn for drivers who are southbound on First Avenue South.
"The left-turn signal there only allows about four vehicles through before turning to flashing yellow," David says.
"There is too much northbound traffic on First Avenue South to allow more than about one or two more vehicles to get through before the light turns red. As a result, the line in the left-turn lane builds to over a dozen waiting cars most mornings."
The left-turn signal should be at least doubled in length, David says.
Answer: Spillar says department engineers will make adjustments imminently, but they'll be temporary adjustments.
"We are currently working on new signal timing for the entire area based on detailed traffic volume counts and histories that we are currently collecting," he says.
The department expects to have the permanent new timing in place within the next six months.
Nov 22, 04
Question: Sometimes we feel as if we've become pen pals with John Hasty. John, who rides the Sounder train, first wrote us in late 2002 to complain about the lack of a signaling system that lets passengers waiting in the rain at Sounder stations know in real time when the train is arriving. That way passengers could take shelter in their cars until the train was close by.
Sound Transit at that time said it had plans for a passenger- information system and work could possibly start by the end of 2003.
John wrote us a year later to inquire about the progress of the signaling system. At that time, Sound Transit said it planned to install the system at the end of this year.
John is now writing a third time to check up on Sound Transit's progress.
Answer: This may end our correspondence, John.
You'll be pleased to know that Sound Transit's finance committee Thursday approved a $3.4 million contract for designing and building a passenger-information system for Sounder's Seattle-Tacoma line.
It will include a central control system, a public address system, automated messages on board the train, a variable message sign system at stations, closed-circuit TV cameras, customer emergency stations and automatic vehicle- location equipment that will show passengers on reader boards exactly where the train is.
The system should be installed by late summer next year.
Federal grants are paying for most of the system, which will be expanded to other parts of the Sounder line later.
First of all the article states that this is not just the test but the analysis of all the resulting data, including how weather would impact the bridge. Structural engineering is NOT CHEAP, that's why architects make good money, heck I considered becoming one. But based of of my experience in other engineering stuff when in college I would suspect that much of this cost is not the test itself but the analysis of the results. Although it would be interesting to see a breakdown.
Posted by: Chokai on August 12, 2005 01:38 PMGlad to see that Mercer Island will soon be losing thier private highway that the rest of us paid for though.
Posted by: Chokai on August 12, 2005 01:43 PMThat really just can't be for anything for show! They know exactly how much weight the floating bridge can hold.
Theories of buoyancy are well proven. And, you know, if they need more buoyancy, they can just tie that hot aired balloon named Mayor Nickels - Protector of Nipples to the bridge. He's large and buoyant and that would double its capacity.
Posted by: BananaLand(aka Iguana) on August 12, 2005 01:45 PM
As to the original problem...Just send me the 700k and I'll give you the correct answer.
Ya gotta be real smart to convert 700k into the incorrect answer...one so patently obvious.
Come to think of it, they deliberately don't ask the correct question, therefore sidestepping the necessity of inconvenient but reality-based answers.
Posted by: scott158 on August 12, 2005 01:47 PMOpps.
The bus tunnel had rails pre-installed just cut the wheel flange channel and bingo rail in the tunnel. The forgot to electrically isolate the rails. putting 600VDC in to the rails embedded in the concrete would lead to current flowing into the rebar, causing corrosion of the rebar and weakening and failure of the concrete. The result is the rails in the tunnel have to be dug up an reinstalled correctly for electric rail.
Two planned projects we were told would be rail ready, ARE NOT. It was sold as saving money making the bridge and tunnel rail ready. Now because of the stupidity, negligence, arrogance and criminal conduct of the government planners. It is costing us far more to "correct" their little "uh-oh."
Any F'ng wonder we are a little bent out of shape we the same con artists tell us gives 9.5 cents more and we'll do it right this time.
NO WAY, NO HOW
Posted by: JCM on August 12, 2005 01:59 PMStop the madness, this is REAL MONEY, not Monopoly money.
If they want to know how the bridge will hold up to weight, why not just re-route those dump trucks working on the third runway? Currently they run from Sea-Tac to Ravensdale via I405 & 169. They can just as easily run up I-5 to I-90 and Hwy 18, and oodles of heavy dump trucks will run over the bridge. Wow, and I don't even have an engineering degree.
Posted by: dl on August 12, 2005 02:08 PMAnother easy test would be to keep adding weight until it sinks. Take that amout of weight and back off just a bit - voila! That's how much weight the bridge can hold. I hope the DOT doesn't read this post.
Posted by: Jeffro on August 12, 2005 02:27 PMFrom the article, it appears that they are trying to run more weight across the bridge than what it was designed for. This is dangerous and could lead to the collapse of the bridge, or the cantilevered roadbed. Then, guess what, we'll get to pay for the repair and the capacity will be reduced in the mean time. And the engineer who cooked up this whole project will keep his/her job.
I guess my problem with this whole thing is that we are spending more and more money on mass transit when most of us can't use it for various reasons. The amount of money being spent on a per-rider basis is ridiculous! (A side point - same goes for salmon habitat restoration - how much have we spent on a per pound basis ?)
We have spent far too much money on mass transit and have neglected the infrastructure that the rest of us use. How many projects have there been that have provided more general purpose lanes ? And, how many projects are there to increase the access to and from freeways ? SR202 east of Redmond is a case in point - The City of Redmond seems to be on the ball as far as widening the road, but once you hit the city limit - bingo, back to two lanes. The State seems to drag its feet on everything - all the while the costs add up.
I'm just glad that the teams currently testing for geologic faults aren't using H-bombs so they can get a better computer model.
Someone needs a nap.
Posted by: Larry on August 12, 2005 02:56 PMIt's all logical in the minds of the people running the DOT and Sound Transit - break it, don't build it right the first time, or build it too small and don't plan in any future capacity, and bingo, self-assured job security.
Posted by: Darth Dogbert on August 12, 2005 05:00 PM****************
Dunno per pound, but once, in my head, I did some math and it came out to about $100K PER FISH.
Won't bore you with saying congestion relief seven times, but that is the ticket, not toy, at grade trains.
The Geezer
Posted by: The Geezer on August 12, 2005 05:11 PMAs Skor indicated, they have a lengthy history of realizing after the fact that their earlier numbers and engineering assumptions were faulty.
One thing that Skor might have mentioned is to recall the "RH Thompson"...a situation where relatively farsighted trans. engineer types set up a number of ramps and whatnot, preparing for future growth and highway needs. Enough years ago that I don't remember when...
Then there was a changing of the guard with the state trans. dept., and then the ramps, etc were taken down.
Now we have several years of experience with ST, and virtually everything they projected has been proven subject to change or rendered an Nixonian "inoperative statement."
The problem is that they make 'em up. They aren't real numbers. They give skewed numbers to effect an end goal of keeping the watering trough running, not to accomplish a task. Real numbers appear to be anathema to them.
So...back when the plans were being made for additional lanes across the lake, weight studies were done? So what? At some level, either one of general concern or professional dignity has them wanting to not see their bridge sink. Yet they've learned to not ever trust in the numbers...or perhaps they've just come to expect that earlier generations of politicized engineers were no more credible than they are.
Someone could die or a legion of engineers lose face. At some point, callous disregard for truth must give way to CYA.
Posted by: scott158 on August 12, 2005 06:00 PMWeekling, as you observed the issue with the bridge is not it's ability to float as much as the structure supporting the roadbed. I suspect if they are smart they will do what any good QA person does, start out small and work up. If they see ANYTHING going wrong they will stop the test. At least one would hope.
Posted by: Chokai on August 12, 2005 06:33 PMCan you say agoraphobia?
Posted by: Organization Man on August 12, 2005 09:34 PMCan we retrofit that baby with floating, tethered Tent cities? Like tent Islands? What should we name them? Dung-isle 1 & 2? Issue free fishing gear so folks can feed themselves. Do we need subsidized seasick pills?
The gentle rocking of the waves soothes the savage beast. Hey--they could compete with the Seattle houseboat market and drive DOWN the prices!!
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 12, 2005 09:44 PMYou might say: "But what about Alaskan Way?" But I'll bet money that when push comes to shove the city will replace the AWV in one way or another with or without the DOT. It's a big tax base after all, 550K people and growing.
As someone who is big on the ideas of tolls and other such "usage" fees I'm a big fan of I-912. I don't want to subsidize the eastsides urban assault vehicle culture any more than they want to subsizide my bus ride, besides my bus is nearly always full and I suspect it actually makes Metro money.
Posted by: Chokai on August 12, 2005 10:22 PMTest the I-90 bridge to simulate light rail..
Test is successful but the limits prohibit vehicle traffic and light rail.
Next step:
Stop all traffic on I-90 across the lake for two years and build light rail.
Complete the light rail constuction and only allow Mercer Island traffic on the bridge because they are 'grandfathered' in and have a lot of pull because of their money.
All other vehicle traffic is prohibited because it would sink the bridge.
Gee...it does sound so democratically sound..it meets the goals of reducing traffic...it encourages mass transit...
What more could you want?
If you really want to undesstand them read Thomas Sowell's Vision of the Anointed, that spells it out as clearly as anything. They say they are concerned about the cost of housing, just think about what the owl policy did to housing prices. Or think about this one: they were mining copper in Montana and enviros demanded that the mountain be rebuilt afterwards. You and I can still afford a toaster even if it costs $500, but for many folks the premium added to buying a toaster and every thing else was a real budget killer, and guess what American copper is almost dead now along with a lot of damn good mining jobs. Miners are kind of independant too, not the kind that can be reeducated to sit behind a desk.
Ever wonder why communities like Centralia, Chehalis and Butte Montana have a meth problem? Think about it. As they say "it aint rocket science.'
Posted by: JDH on August 12, 2005 10:54 PMThe answer... Because they love their children. Every day at work I hear that people's kids are not interested in taking a trip as a family. Hy when we were growing up we always had a Galaxy 500 and the whole family was comfortable and we loved to go all over. Today these cars are not available, thank you very much, so people who still care about their kids comfort buy a SUV or a Eurovan so that their kids in the back seat are as comfortable as them, in the front. Theese families don't seem to have a problem getting their kids interested in doing things 'as a family.' The difference is, they are a family in the traditional sense. Their parrents care enough to make sure everybody is comfortable. Think about it; would you want to go anwwhere if you were stuffed in the back seat of a prius next to a kid in a car seat? I think not, 20 minutes like that is miscaerable enough to make ANY destination uninviting, Play Station, DVD player or not.
Posted by: JDH on August 12, 2005 11:09 PMThat state DOT along with Sound Transit, are going to pay 8 truck drivers $700,000.00 - to drive 8 flatbed trucks, loaded with 145,000 lbs of concrete, back and forth over the I 90 bridge, to see if the bridge can handle the load of a transit train? The bridge was designed to handle a transit load and the people were charged for it back in the 90's?
Are the truck drivers teamsters? Is this some union perk the Democrats are attempting to pay for with our tax dollars?
The trucks load will be measured with sensors and gauges? Are these included in the price? Did the state take bids for this absurd project? Which trucking company and drivers are they using?
Is the state confident that this silly experiment will give an accurate measurement of the weight the I 90 bridge can handle? Didn't the state have this information in the specs and plans from the construction of the bridge in the 1990's?
I think any project the state and King County try to launch must be reviewed and put to a vote. This is getting crazy!
Posted by: Deborah on August 13, 2005 12:16 AMWell, peace on you j.
Apparently, like most mongrels you would prefer to eat your own vomit. Knock yourself out ;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on August 13, 2005 10:00 AMYou need to check the numbers, your bus ride is subsidized with tax dollars. But at least busses can easily be moved around as needs change, so we consider it a good investment. Working on memory here, I think the average cost is around $7 per rider/trip of which the rider pays under $3. Each light rail rider costs $80 to $100 per trip, of which the rider pays only a amall fraction. Both are subsidized by tax dollars from outside of Seattle.
Look around at all the projects Seattle has going on (then add in their wants/needs lists) this is not sustainable utilizing only taxes from the 550K base you mention. Seattle requires massive doses of funding from King County taxpayers, Washington taxpayers, and Federal taxpayers. The entire region benefits from a prosperous and stable Seattle, but considering the sheer amount of our money being utilized, we also have the right to demand common sense, accountability, and good stewardship. This is not just a Seattle investment for Seattlites.
But continue to hang out here at SP, we'll educate you!!
Posted by: dl on August 13, 2005 11:24 AMJDH referenced an extinct beast the Galaxy 500 wagon, and all it's related brethren the long gone family station wagon. In ages past families could buy the machines throw the 3 kids in the back seat and fill up the back with traveling accouterments.
What killed off the species known as the family wagon? The Law of Unintended Consequences and CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy). When CAFE came along the auto makers looked to trim the fleet mileage of their product, they wacked the low mileage wagons. Now the average family with 2 1/2 kids, Rover and 1/4 ton of camping gear just was not going anywhere in a Vega.
Chrysler started the trend with the Mini-van. Mini-vans you see are exempt from CAFE because they are not "cars" they are "light trucks" and do no count on the average mileage sheet.
Americans being Americans wanted bigger and better each year so the evolution was on.
Next time some yutz complains about folks wanting an SUV look 'em in the eye and say "it's the environmentalists fault."
Posted by: JCM on August 13, 2005 02:49 PMNo, let's not--we need to not get distracted from local idiocy in our nationally oriented liberal zeal to blame everything on Bush.
"And BTW, this crap about SUVs being safe withers away once you get on of those things rolling over. Your chances of not surviving an accident DOUBLE once the vehicle rolls over, and we all know that's what big vehicles do in accidents."
You are preaching to the choir about this. SUVs have gotten much safer since the late '80s, but people still (erroneously) feel safer, when the car can keep them from hurting themselves: they don't have to be a good/safe driver if the car can do it for them, at the cost of the fuel-efficient vehicle that gets crushed by their safe SUV. Of course, one wonders if there are any liberals that drive SUVs...ya think?
"Why am I saying this? I just get tired of the dogfood this site dishes out. Peace."
If you don't want dogfood, you could always eat over at Horse's Ass--I hear they do a really great non-beef rump roast over there.
Youd've thunk those transport-gizmo-thingees (like Star Trek)would have showed up by now, too, considering all the $$$ that has gone down the flusher.
Posted by: Shaun on August 13, 2005 05:48 PMThat "Federal Grant" money is the same bucket your hero George the lesser is getting the money for his little "freeeedom is on the march" war money for Iraq from. It's all our tax dollars going to waste. Howcome we never hear your whining complaints about that????????
Posted by: Unkl Witz on August 13, 2005 08:11 PMA bit of advice to you "fiscal conservatives", get your head out of your rump and look at where the real money is being wasted.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on August 13, 2005 08:15 PMExtremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Barry M. Goldwater
Speaking of money being wasted let's look at the Trillions on LBJ's great society and exactly what that accomplished.
BTW Unkl Witz you still haven't answered my question to you;
Was the Revolution and the Civil War "worth" fighting to secure your liberty?
UW you're back to your one trick pony. We are talking about local waste. In previous threads every objection your brought to the table has been proven false.
Unless you have something substantive to say, troll elsewhere, you are a discredited fool around here.
Posted by: JCM on August 13, 2005 08:50 PM"WE HATE SHRUB. WE WILL SAY ANYTHING, DO ANYTHING TO TAKE SHRUB DOWN."
Now, Unkl Witz what do you think of the Clinton Administration telling the Army they COULD NOT tell the FBI that Atta was part of an Al Qeada terror cell. Now lets just imagine that the Democrats had not constructed a "wall" between foreign intelligence collection and domestic law enforcement. The Army would have told the FBI that they thought Atta was a terrorist and he ought be watched. And hopefully, the FBI would have watched him and wondered why a suspected terrorist was taking flying lessons. Do you think there is any chance that 3000 American civilians who did not volunteer to put themselves in harms way for YOUR sake would still be alive today.
Not only are liberal and Democrats soft on crime they are soft on national security. And most of the people in the U.S. KNOW that. Otherwise, President Bush would not have been re-elected.
You creeps are genuinely DISGUSTING.
Posted by: JC Bob on August 13, 2005 09:17 PMI'm curious as to what other "large" projects you think are going on in the City of Seattle largely soley for the benefit of Seattle besides the light rail (not needed yet) and the viaduct that are being funded by outside sources.
As for subsidization there are several parts. Lets start with the cities budget first. Outside sources: $30m. Of a $650m budget. So your "subsidization" is largely going to one off institutions, harborview, UW, that happen to be in the city and provide the bulk of thier services to people outside of the city anyways. There is of course a huge exception, the larger welfare rolls and additional public support to low income residents in South Seattle. But hey I can't see Redmond, Bellevue or Kirkland accepting those poor souls. Besides many of them are moving out of the city anyways due to higher property values. And then we can talk about the benefit the city could get from oh say, charging more than it does to provide water to the rest of King County (Is that a reverse subsidy? I'd have to research.) As well as the killing it already makes on selling excess power. With the rising income sources to the city I am sure Mayor Nickel's will somehow always have the money he needs, although every year there will be a "budget crunch" for good publicity sake.
BTW as for Seattle not being able to afford to replace the viaduct if it had too. The 1.4% excise tax raised enough for 2/3rds of the cost of replacing the viaduct. Raise the MVET to 2.2% as it was pre-695 (remember Seattle voted AGAINST that) and viola new viaduct, and cash to spare for the future. Personally I vote for new Ballard and Montlake Bridges. But with that much city provided money I think the tunnel will get built. All this cash from in the city of Seattle. Whether people will chose to do it is another matter, but it's a very interesting reflection on the size and capabilities of the city nonetheless....
The LAST thing I read SP for is to be educated.
Posted by: chokai on August 14, 2005 10:33 AMwhy do some posters here immediately spill bile and 'go national' on unrelated topics? lack of salient points and facts? refusal to ad lib from their liberal stage lines? the same bloggers would not go 'off topic' in a meeting at work to complain about all the company's dirty laundry worldwide; they would be shut down and have to re-cheese their bagel;
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 14, 2005 11:01 AMTwo words Jimmie - drain-brammage!
Posted by: alphabet soup on August 14, 2005 11:49 AMOr more specifically,
WHY DOES THE STATE NEED TO BUILD A $100 MILLION GRAVING DOCK?
That $100,000,000 does not include the $60 million wasted by trying to build the graving dock on a know Indian village site in Port Angeles.
So far, the WSDOT has built five floating bridges using commercial graving (dry) docks. So, why now does the State need to own it own dry dock to build the pontoons and anchors to replace the rotting (rusting re-bar) pontoons and anchors of the old (44 year) half of the Hood Canal Bridge.
Would you believe the reason is that all pontoons and anchors must be built at the same time rather than one or two at a time as has been done in the past. And there is no dry dock on the West Coast (world?) large enough to do that. But why must they all be built at the same time, you ask? If the pontoons and anchors were not all built at the same time, some would have to be stored and, while stored, they would shadow the bottom underneith them. So, you ask? Wye!, that would interfer with the lifecycle of the creapy, crawly creatures that live in the mud on the bottom shadowed by the stored pontoons and anchors.
Yes, you can read that on the WSDOT website.
Posted by: JC Bob on August 14, 2005 12:08 PMIt just doesn't pass the common smell test, let alone common sense.
Posted by: JCM on August 14, 2005 04:29 PMHave you read the ISG report yet?
Posted by: JCM on August 15, 2005 03:56 PM(careful, don't get any on ya ;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on August 15, 2005 08:46 PM