August 06, 2005
All-mail voting in Kitsap

The Kitsap County Commission voted last month to abolish public voting and adopt all-mail voting. Chris Shardelman is asking the Commission to reconsider. He claims that arguments made by the Kitsap Auditor were bogus.

Her letter to a local newspaper follows.

Dean Logan's wife, by the way, is Kitsap's deputy auditor.

Has the Auditor sufficiently scared the County Commissioners and voters into accepting all-mail voting by threatening them with $732,000 for 150 voting devices for the handicapped?

Help America Vote Act (HAVA) requires only one per polling place, not per precinct. Kitsap has 28 polling places, and federal HAVA funding will pay for those 28. The other 122 devices are not needed, because paper ballots remain legal. Keeping the polls open gives those with handicaps the ability to use the voting devise. They will not come out of the Commissioners' budet, which is the reason Commissioners gave for voting yes the first time.

All-mail voting will require 20 to 30 additional election employees for 25 days to process the extra mail ballots, with possible overtime pay. Signature verifiers and leaders pay scale will exceed the pay scale of previous poll workers for the one day they worked..

All-mail voting removes the ability to account for each ballot. Were those not returned stolen, delivered to the wrong person, or eaten by the dog? All of us, whether receiving mail in rural boxes or post office boxes, has experienced misplaced mail. Consider how much more will be required of postal officials when additional ballots flood the mails. The Auditor calls it “reconciling” ballots, but only accounts for only those returned, not all that were sent out. Poll workers must account for each ballot given to live voters. After the 2004 election fiasco, many voters have said they will never vote by mail again.

The Constitution Article 6(4)is explicit regarding the limited categories of voters who can use absentee votes. It has been ignored, allowing everyone the opportunity to vote absentee. To expand the categories should be done by the legislature by referring an amendment to the people. Art. 6(6) states we are to have security and absolute secrecy in preparing and depositing our ballots. That requires a privacy booth and being able to deposit your ballot in the ballot box, not in unsecured mails.

The Auditor owes voters full disclosure regarding the number of voting devices truly required by HAVA, rather than scaring them into closing the more secure polling places. She needs to give the figures for the additional employees required to process all-mail ballots. The Pierce County Auditor’s figures proved all-mail voting to be more expensive.

Please, no King County type elections! Kitsap doesn't need bins of absentee ballots suddenly appearing, or being lost! That fiasco has left most voters distrustful of elections. Let's maintain the most secure, accountable method by voting at the polls. The County Commissioners should reconsider their votes August 8th, when they have the opportunity to revote on the all-mail voting being forced on all voters.

Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at August 06, 2005 08:19 AM | Email This
Comments
1. I'm still not convinced mail voting is better (at reducing vote irregularities) from all I have read. However, I noticed more and more counties are quietly changing to "all-mail" voting, presumably as a quicker end-run around the real, (tougher) reforms needed.

Current elections officials will get their wish--bypassing the 'citizen-only' and 'positive i.d.' requirements and opening up a Pandora's box of signature verifications and hassles.

It will be sold on the convenience feature. It has no mention of re-registration to purge rolls of disqualified voters. Dark days ahead. Nothing really changed. John Fund--where art thou?

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 6, 2005 08:59 AM
2. Stefan--
I've thought a lot about the pros & cons of "all-mail voting".
First, County's that are going to it generally already see approx 2/3 of their voters doing it already. It is costly and time-consuming to train poll workers plus plenty of problems with provisional ballots.

One thing I wish the Republicans had done was to take about 4-5 highly Democratic Precindts & Republican Precindts in King County and send out a "Confirmation Letter" to each registered voter that shows they were either credited for voting in November, 2004 or not credited for voting and ask them to please respond if the "Confirmation Letter" was incorrect.

Perhaps a necessary step in all mail voting will be some sort of confirmation process.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 6, 2005 09:50 AM
3. That auditor is clearly up to no good. I'm just TIRED of these people trying to deceive time after time after time. ENOUGH!

Posted by: Michele on August 6, 2005 10:30 AM
4. Mr. Cynical -

The piece of the puzzle that isn't widely discussed is that the majority of provisional ballot voters are people who did not receive their absentee ballot, or received the incorrect ballot for their precinct, received a mis-printed or unreadable ballot, etc.

That category of voters will still be with us, and eliminating the polling places will make it much harder for someone, who was forced to vote absentee in the first place, get a replacement ballot when their original ballot never arrives or is not up to snuff.

Thos people will have to drive down to the election office to be helped - have you ever tried to find parking in downtown Seattle on a weekday, the only days they are open?

Posted by: Good Grief on August 6, 2005 10:51 AM
5. Good Grief--
Wrongo--
All people that did not receive ballots have to do is call the Auditors Office and they will send out replacement ballots.
Many "voters" simply do not take the time to update their voter registration information when they move. Who's fault is that???
We MUST build some voter responsibility into the system instead of designing a system the reaches out to the lowest common denominator.

If these people are not astute enough to know when the ballots were mailed out....or care enough to follow-up if they don't receive the ballot within a few days of the mailing....why shouldn't it be the VOTERS responsibility at some point in time.

By the way...what do you think about some type of "confirmation program" to validate that the voter given credit for voting actually voted. Or that if the voter wasn't credited but DID vote??

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 6, 2005 11:10 AM
6. The Spokane County Auditor, Vicky Dalton, tried to get all-mail voting in Spokane County, citing costs as the excuse...

The County Comissioners turned her down.

Posted by: Igor on August 6, 2005 11:54 AM
7. Unless you can guarantee that the person whose name is on the ballot is the same person who filled it out and mailed it in mail ballots are a BAD idea.

It is simple as that. And you cannot make that quarantee with mail ballots. That simple problem eliminates mail ballots as a viable solution to vote verification.

If someone can't haul their backside down to the polling place to vote, too bad. If it is too inconvenient for you to vote, you do not value your franchise enough and shouldn't be voting in the first place.

Voting is too important too leave it open to abuse.

To clean up the voting mess we need three basic elements
1) Purge the rolls.
2) Re-registration with citizenship and residency verification.
3) In person voting with ID confirmation.

Any other solution is will just let the counters determine the winner.

Posted by: JCM on August 6, 2005 12:26 PM
8. All Mail voting is bogus and invites for fraud unless there is a check built in. All mail voting will not work reasonable for the 500 plus people who registered at the King County Court House unless the people working there know exactly where the people who registered at that address do live (I think they don't...so either those people can't vote...or someone will have to fill it out for them....you get my drift).

I've suggested many times (even to our legislature in Toby Nixon) to build in some check and balance if one wants to go to all mail voting or better yet, have a checked mail voting and secure polling voting.
Here's what needs to be done:
1. Provisional ballots need to have a different color (this eliminates most of the problems people keep harping about like lack of training etc).
2. Eliminate permant absentee voting.
3. Each registered voter receives a card in the mail with information about polling place and a check box to apply for (one time ) absentee voting.
4. If voter needs to/wants to vote absentee, they send the card back with the box checked. They will get an absentee ballot in the mail.
(yes, someone can still send the card for someone else, but...)
5. If you don't vote absentee, you take your card to the polling station and surrender it against a ballot. In both cases, you count the ballots handed out vs. cards received and you have an easy reconciliation.

That would be easy to do, and easy to administer. People who don't get the card or loose it, etc. still can vote with provisional ballots.

For military voters and people outside the country the rules need to be slightly different and can be handled as such.

Posted by: FG on August 6, 2005 12:48 PM
9. Mr. Cynical said "why shouldn't it be the VOTERS responsibility at some point in time."

That, Mr. C, is one of the biggest reasons NOT to support VBM. Duh!

If you really believe that handing your vote to the mailman (person), to be delivered to a processing facility is such a wonderful idea, why don't you send cash through our trusty postal system? While your at it, include a note with your SS and bank account numbers.

Come on! Ask the Britt's about "Postal Voting" and election security.

Ask Ralph Nader about Oregon's "transparent and fraud free" mail ballot system! Hey, did you know, the Oregon SoS claimed their last election had zero fraud using VBM... ZERO! If you believe that, I have a viaduct to sell you.

If VBM is the end all be all, what are you going to say when there is some "October Surprise" and you voted for the candidate who smokes crack, IN SEPTEMBER.

VOTERS responsibility
ALL VOTE MY MAIL ELIMINATES RESPONSIBILITY - BOTH PERSONAL AND OFFICIAL. VBM ENABLES ELECTION FRAUD.period.

Posted by: Splatter on August 6, 2005 01:18 PM
10. Hey, maybe its not such a bad idea. It means I can make sure my wife and family vote the way I want them to. We can throw a voting party! No more stupid "secret" ballot stuff. And if someone makes a mistake, well, I know where the ballot (mail) box is.

Then there is the advantage to the political parties. They can send their "workers" out to track the ballots. They will have three weeks to get them to vote, instead of just one day. Aunt Milly will be visited by nice people who want to "help" her vote. No more "last minute" reminders, we will have a Month of reminders.

Hey, this is going to better then sliced bread!

Posted by: Splatter on August 6, 2005 01:34 PM
11. There is a bright side to almost everything.
The fact is...a huge percentage of voters already vote by mail. Lots of problems at the polls too. May be better to focus ALL energy on vote by mail and eliminate the poll & provisional problems. Lot's of kinks to work out but.....everyone can vote by mail now if they choose to.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 6, 2005 02:10 PM
12. Imagine the Grinch on top of Grinch mountain looking down on the little Whos of Whoville; Grinch thinks "what unsuspecting government agency can I get to help me in my quest to steal elections every time? Ahhh, the USPS" as he scratches his his chin with long green fingers.

Posted by: PC on August 6, 2005 02:30 PM
13. Mr.C, in my view, your rationalization that "a huge percentage of voters already vote by mail" is a shadow argument. VBM is available and therefore inherently good? I completely disagree.

Tell me, why would you trust VBM and distrust Poll booths? Are you claustrophobic?

VOTE BY MAIL FRAUD is not the answer. It is part of the problem.

Posted by: Splatter on August 6, 2005 03:03 PM
14. I don't want to vote by mail, I want to go to the polling place.

Can I sue the county if they do not let me vote in person? Wouldn't that be a violation of my constitutional rights?

Posted by: Larry on August 6, 2005 03:07 PM
15. Imagine this little scenario:

The state enacts all Vote by Mail and extends the voting period, allowing voters to cast ballots at their convenience.

The mail person delivers your ballot, on time, to your current home address. You take your time. Research the issues, study the candidates, then, using your trusty #2 pencil, fill in the ovals, sign, seal and place in your mail box. So simple, easy and fast! Heck, you cast your ballot two weeks early.

Four days before election deadline the Media outlet report a "scandal" involving a government official. The candidate you voted for, "allegedly" molested two young boys and admitted offering up employment for gay sex.

You're disgusted and outraged but your ballot has been cast. Cast for a crooked pervert.

The price we pay for convenience.

--------
This didn't happen, and it won't, right?
--------

George W. Bush's 1976 drunken driving arrest five days before the 2000 election.

Ross Perot's unsubstantiated contention nine days before the 1992 election that Republicans had planned to sabotage his daughter's wedding.

Indictment four days before the 1992 election of former Defense Secretary Caspar W. Weinberger contradicting George H.W. Bush's assertion that he didn't know about the Iran-Contra arms deals

Posted by: Splatter on August 6, 2005 03:45 PM
16. After giving this a lot of thought and consideration, I've decided that what we should do is to institute Cereal Box Voting (CBV).

All cereal boxes would come with a voters ballot on it, and each box would contain as its "prize" a sticker with the name of candidate. Crappy, sugary cereals (like Count Chocula) would have democrat ballots and boring (but good for you) cereals (like Shredded Wheat) would have the Republican ones. The useless ones like Meuslix would have the ballots for independents ;'}

If you didn't get the one you wanted, you could always trade for one (I'll give you five Sam Reeds for a Dino Rossi!). Of course 80% of the boxes would contain the Joker sticker (Jim McDimwitt), which encourages you to throw the damn thing away and open another box.

The way I see it, if no one in authority is interested in serious reforms, then we might as well have fun with it!

Posted by: alphabet soup on August 6, 2005 05:16 PM
17. Alphabet Soup...I like it. Tired of having my intelligence insulted with dumb @!* un-reforms.

Posted by: dl on August 6, 2005 06:09 PM
18. splatter--
I'm not saying there aren't problems with all-mail voting. There are. I just feel that since AMV is the long rapidly rising trend....that we ought to at least consider adopting it and working the bugs out....rather than have 2 other methods (Polls & Provisionals) to deal with...that's all. 3 different voting methods, in & of itself, creates huge opportunities for corruption as we just saw.
I know folks are very skitterish after this past election debacle....and rightfully so. I just think that some safeguards and more voter responsibility built into AMV MAY end up with better results. MAY!! It all depends upon the controls. Cheating can happen under any method dontcha know.

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 6, 2005 06:13 PM
19. "There is a bright side to almost everything.
The fact is...a huge percentage of voters already vote by mail. Lots of problems at the polls too."

Mr. C....

Have you forgotten this little *glitch* in our absentee ballot program?

"AP reports: The mail ballot supervisor in Washington state's most populous county testified Wednesday that she had raised concerns about the county's inability to track ballots months before last year's disputed governor's race.
Click Here

The supervisor, Nicole Way, said she repeatedly told her bosses as early as spring 2004 that the King County elections department couldn't tell how many ballots were being mailed out or received back. About two-thirds of the county's 900,000 votes in the November election were mail ballots."

If the most populous county in the state can't even handle the most elementary task of knowing how many ballots they've mailed out or received back.....how can you have any confidence in any county's all mail voting system?

Posted by: Deborah on August 6, 2005 08:17 PM
20. Mail voting should be done away with entirely.

People who are going to be out of town or otherwise cannot make it to the polls on Election Day should be allowed to vote early by going to the Elections office and voting at an "early voting polling place," as is done in many states.

People who are infirm should be allowed to request that a ballot be brought to them by an Elections office courier team (more than one person), who will verify the person's identity, verify that the infirm person votes in private, and then take the ballot away with them.

At no time should a ballot ever be out of the sight and control of elections workers.

Posted by: Legast on August 6, 2005 08:26 PM
21. one more time, shall we?: Hillary wants to be president and the only way to absolutely assure that she gets enough votes is for MAIL IN BALLOTS AND LOTS OF ILLEGALS -- this garbage is happening in every state of the union sponsored by -- repeat after me: D E M O C R A T S...

Posted by: Lew on August 6, 2005 09:43 PM
22. Stephan,

Thanks for giving credit where credit is due. Unfortunately Chris is both male and female in use. In this case it is female and she is very astute.


AJ

Posted by: AJ on August 6, 2005 10:05 PM
23. Stefan, great read. I hope the kitsap commission pays heed to this letter and rethinks their position. Not a bad read for other counties as well. Maybe we need to forward this to our own county commissioners as an FYI for any future playing at this game..

Posted by: 4pawz on August 6, 2005 11:05 PM
24.
I think Lew hit the nail on the head.

Posted by: Bill on August 7, 2005 02:00 AM
25. I have voted absentee for years now in Kitsap County and have appreciated the convenience that it gives me. I do have a problem though with the problem of getting my father off the rolls because of Alzheimers. I have contacted the Auditors office and was informed that even with my Power of Attorney they can't take him off. I need to return 2 pieces of mail from them as "Undeliverable" before they will remove his name. I have a problem with this.

Posted by: JS on August 7, 2005 07:42 AM
26. Most people in the United States still vote in person at the the polls. So the idea that we can not get people to vote in person is obviously bogus.

Most vote fraud in the United States is committed with mailed ballots. If you want to increase vote fraud, you will want to increase the use of mailed ballots.

It may be politically impossible to reduce them to the minimum absolutely necessary, but I think we can discourage people from using them by putting more controls on them -- for example by requiring ballots to have witness signatures, as well as voter signatures. And we should do everything we can to stop them from becoming the default way to vote.

Posted by: Jim Miller on August 7, 2005 11:55 AM
27. You are on to something Jim!

If our local government is going to try to force us into All Mail Voting - they should have to make the system as secure as possible first!

The first thing I would insist on is to re-register all voters in the state with mandatory identification. I'm not talking about some silly utility bill! I mean a drivers license and social security card. The drivers license must show current residence and the Social security card must be valid for proof of citizenship.

They must also make the processing of the ballots uniform throughout the state. No more questionable processing centers such as PSI....King County and the other counties must provide their own processing and printing with their own employees and use only the US Postal service for mailing. They must have a means to audit every step of the way.

All steps of the absentee ballot processing - especially the King County facility - must be recorded and video taped with security cameras 24/7. (If any convenience store can do this..something as sacred as our votes should be as secure!)

In the bank - our computer systems record every user who enters a system. Their user ID is recorded and their access is tracked. If there is a problem - it is easy to find who accessed a specific system at any given time and exactly what they did. This should be a no-brainer for our elections software.

The first years of All Absentee voting in our state should be overseen by a National Election committee with no access restrictions.

These are just some ideas that make sense and should have been considered PRIOR to our legislature's vote to accept All Mail Voting!

Makes one wonder..what on earth they were thinking....

Posted by: Deborah on August 7, 2005 07:28 PM
28. All mail voting is totally bogus -- the direction should be exactly and totally the opposite - only people with LEGITIMATE reasons why they CANNOT vote in their local polling place should be allowed to vote absebtee -- the whole idea of the mail in ballot is to get as many people as possible to vote several days to 1-2 weeks prior to the actual polling date -- a time window within which many of the rottenist portions of the campaigns and rottenist attributes or lack thereof of the candidate's personalities or histories have come into focus or bogus claims have been proven bogus or facts claimed as bogus have in fact been proven true -- just think of all the claims, counter-claims, accusations etc etc etc -- ad infinitum that swirled around in the last couple of weeks prior to the 2000 and 2004 elections that were kept alive by the G-D MSM right up to the last few days -- just one good rumor a few days before an election CAN INFLUENCE A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF VOTES THAT GET CAST EARLY

Posted by: Bill on August 8, 2005 12:01 AM
29. Cynical--
I'll give you this: Yes--voters need to get it together and get more serious about voting itself--like deadlines and following instructions.

However, I'm not convinced mail voting is still o.k. for most of us. Illegals and fraud are my biggest issues. Also, noting your responsibility comment, this whole "enhancement" notion troubles me--the "assumed intent" thing.

Hey--if you screw up the paperwork, you lose. We don't enhance major professional exams or kids' school exams when "ovals" aren't darkened properly, right? I'll bet everyone completes the Reader's Digest Sweeps forms correctly, yet their own VOTING ballots are a mess!

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 8, 2005 05:08 AM
30. Yes, let's put democrat supporting union postal workers in charge of collecting election ballots. Oh yeah, the same democrat supporting union postal worker who sees all your RNC mail will most definitely make sure your election ballot is delivered.

What about the deadline for getting ballots in the mail?...Postmarked midnight the day of election?

Election results will be delayed 4 or 5 days after the election waiting for the democrat supporting union postal worker to deliver the ballots? Plenty of time for manipulation of the results.

The VBM is a crazy scheme.

Signed
SCAB postal worker in Nebraska (A Right-to-Work state)

Posted by: Jay on August 8, 2005 06:29 AM
31. Jay >> and don't forget the postal workers who can slow the transport of ballots with military addresses -- apo, fpo, etc -- both on the mailout and mailback -- weren't there a bunch of military ballots that were found to have been sidetracked by a postal worker in Florida in 2000??

Posted by: Bill on August 8, 2005 06:36 AM
32. Just e-mailed this story to all three Kitsap Commissioners, two editors at the Kitsap Sun and Karen Flynn.

An aquaintence of mine has had the opportunity to run into Karen Flynn on occassion. She is still an adamant supporter of Dean Logan.

Posted by: Shannon C on August 8, 2005 10:11 AM
33. Mr. Cynical doesn't sound very cynical to me. Sounds like the PR Front guy for Kitsap County.

Posted by: Fly your colors on August 8, 2005 12:21 PM
34. Mr. Cynical says,
"Cheating can happen under any method dontcha know."
That's true, but how about making it as difficult as possible to cheat, HUH? One way is to keep alive poll voting as a verification on the absentee returns.
Absentee voters used to be believed to be conservatives but that's no longer true. Many people only happen to vote absentee because auditors closed their polling places - so there should be no predictable politicalleaning in absentees. You don't hear much about it, but in the past the monkey business shows up when there is a big difference between who won at the polls vesus who won in the absentees.

Posted by: Flying on August 8, 2005 12:37 PM
35. The most secure way of voting is at the polls. Really? Just consider some of the "voting" at the poll site that this the KCE Administration Building. Just becuase people are voting in person doesn't mean its more secure. Didn't you guys learn anything from the last election fiasco? You guys have 5 different ways of sneaking ballots into the system. 1. polling place. 2. provisional ballots 3. absentee ballots 4. military ballots 5. permanent absentee ballots. More ways to vote means more ways to work the system. At least Kitsap will have only one type of ballot. I am from Oregon, and believe me, I am no fan of vote by mail. But to say that voting at the polls is more secure is almost laughable given the performance of King County, at the polls, in the last election.

Posted by: Marc on August 8, 2005 02:08 PM
36. Marc - get a clue

Posted by: Bill on August 8, 2005 02:22 PM
37. Live in Kitsap. I wasn't asked about it. It is a bad idea designed only to encourage vote fraud and elect Democrats.

Posted by: djd on August 8, 2005 04:41 PM
38. Marc,

Moving to All Mail Voting only reduces the kind of ballots by one-polling place. If there were just polling place voting there wouln't be any need for the other ballots. With All Mail Voting you still have provisional (replaced with reprinted ballots), military, absentee and permanent absentee. They will still have to check to see if someone voted twice like they do now.

Posted by: Shannon C on August 8, 2005 04:59 PM
39. Also, I would disagree polling place being no less secure than all mail voting. Sure, fraud can happen, but it is harder to do it a polling place than through the mail. It's like the analogy I used a while back. With all mail voting you are leaving the keys in the ignition. With polling place at least you have the doors locked and the car alarm on.

Posted by: Shannon C on August 8, 2005 05:03 PM
40. Good discussion...
I oppose All-mail voting until I'm convinced necessary internal controls are in place (which is probably never).
My point earlier was apparently not as clear as it could have been so let me try again.
When you have more than 1 method of voting (mail, provisional, polls), it creates additional opportunities for improprieties (also known as cheating)....aka ballotbox stuffing & unstuffing, multiple votes from 1 person etc. etc. Particularly the provisional ballots allow someone to vote numerous times.
With Vote-by-mail, there are plenty of opportunities to cheat....granted.
However, by centralizing all ballot processing where the entire process can be observed by experts from both Party's (rather than untrained Senior citizens who struggle with what to do)...I think you MAY have some distinct advantages.
The biggest control is matching signatures....and when in doubt, you must confirm them. No one has to show ID at the polls. No one really checks the sigs when someone signs in at the polls.

All I'm saying is that controlling one process MAY be easier than multiple processes that overlap. DIG??

Posted by: Mr. Cynical on August 8, 2005 07:41 PM
41. Not convinced yet; how do you prove vote-by-mail signatures? digital scan with, say, 95% bell curve tolerable accuracy of the lines or marks to real people? eyeballing it? manual checks? braille or physical unique imprints?

how about the myriad of unintelligible scribbles and "x's" made by illegal aliens? this is like landing your spacecraft in the midst of a doctors' prescription writing conference!! didn't they set the standard for penmanship? so how can we expect staffers to become writing experts?

I'll go with the purged voting rolls + picture i.d. + proof of citizenry all at the same time or somehow incorporated beforehand; maybe we give up some freedom for fingerprints or retinal scans; anything else is just spittin' in the wind; all comes down to how you feel it's important vs. other matters; relative value; is voting important or is some other governmental function like free school lunches or homeless shelters more deserving of our time? I know my perferences; how about you?

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 8, 2005 10:38 PM
42. I was just wondering.....(again..)

What does All Mail Voting do to a citizens right to challenge what they believe is an illegal vote? Don't our election laws say that a citizen has to challenge an illegal vote within so much time of the election?

How is anyone going to be able to challenge any illegal vote or voter if all votes are sent in absentee? It seems like a free ticket for more illegal aliens to vote unchallenged...

Before any county adopts the All Mail Voting policy - the State must first reconcile this new approach to voting with our WAC, RCW and constitutional laws.....(and while they're at it - they can improve on some of our vague election laws!)

Posted by: Deborah on August 8, 2005 10:49 PM
43. Lets start by making everyone renew their voter registration every year.

Posted by: Kris on August 9, 2005 01:03 AM
44. Maybe so, Kris--folks (even illegal aliens) manage to renew their drivers licenses without much whimper. Maybe a 2-yr cycle or something. In any case, none of this "I trust you" crap--can't rent a silly video without i.d.; even the zoo asks members for picture i.d.--if it's good enough for baboons, it's good enough for the masses;

Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on August 9, 2005 10:56 AM
45. The depth of Marc's all-mail voting analysis is
equaled by the ease with which he is obviously
assured of its merit.
No clues there, just "good home training."

Posted by: Amused by liberals on August 9, 2005 11:42 AM
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