June 28, 2005
The Monorail: Litmus test for ability to handle reality
Most (though not all) of the Seattle City Council members are now "troubled" by the Monorail. Welcome aboard.
The Monorail is the single biggest issue in front of the City Council, and it should be the most important litmus test for this year's Council candidates. Incumbents Jan Drago and Nick Licata, who are perceived to be the most fervent cheerleaders for the Monorail on the council are still not troubled. They're both up for re-election this fall, but unfortunately neither has a credible opponent yet. Then there is Robert Rosencrantz, who is running against incumbent Richard McIver. I once thought Rosencrantz could have been a credible Council candidate. But his posititon on the Monorail reveals him to be either a craven fence-sitter or totally brainless:
"I don't believe the public needs to accept an unaffordable monorail, nor does it need to kill the project,"
Rosencrantz doesn't like the financing, so his solution is to put the Monorail back for a rebid. Unfortunately, a new bid might tweak the details or the price slightly, but won't fix the financing. Rosencrantz gets The GONG
Meanwhile, the City Council is defunding bus service in order to subsidize the South Lake Union Street Car.
[Mayor] Nickels hailed the council's action. "The South Lake Union streetcar is public transit that makes sense. It will link thousands of workers and residents to buses, light rail and monorail stations downtown," Nickels said in a written statement.
Which once again demonstrates why Greg Nickels is a suitable mayor for "The City That Is Not Living In The World As It Exists
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 28, 2005
10:51 AM | Email This
Didja ever know someone who decided that they couldn't ever possibly dig their way out of their financial straits (self-inflicted, of course!) and decided to max out their plastic on their way to bankruptcy?
They know they can't justify it, they can't afford it, and that it's morally, ethically, and legally wrong, but they do it anyway?
Didja ever notice how similar they look to Seattle city government officials?
2. I would hate to think that the City Councilmembers are so craven they would allow this fiasco to proceed. There is no way this project is justified at this price. I think these City Council members actually hold middle-class people in contempt. What is the deal -- they have been promised contributions to their campaigns by unions?
If you ask the wrong question, you will always get the wrong answer:
For the council to kill the monorail would require them to admit that it is a boondoggle. That will never happen because it goes against their liberal, know-it-all, self-important dogma.
4. Seattle deserves every bad thing. Ah the wages of liberalism.
The South Lake Union Streetcar will be financed the same way the Waterfront Streetcar was financed, via a Local Improvement District, with the property owners agreeing to tax themselves to build it. THere will be some outside grants. As for operating costs, in 2009, Metro will have a whole bunch of service-hours that will not be needed.
In the Ranier Valley, the 42 will no longer be needed North of Ranier Beach, and the 48 could be cut back to Columbia City. That is a lot of service hours freed up.
6. Ya know doug I am inclined to agree with you. Although there are some residents of the Capital City of Ukraine County that do not deserve this and more, most of them definately do. Stupidity should be painful, the only reservation I have is that a State or Federal bailout would be likely if Seattle were to bankrupt.
If the MVET is falling 30% below expectations, why not raise the tax by 30%? Of couse if they did that revenue would probably fall 40% short as more and more people register their cars at non-Seattle addresses.
I say go for the 70 year plan and stick it to the taxpayers of Seattle for generations to come. After they default on the bond payments and eventually cancel the whole stupid thing when it's 1/2 built they'll have all those ugly concrete towers to stare at :-) WPPS-2 in the making.
8. So MASSTRANSITFAN how do you claim "As for operating costs, in 2009, Metro will have a whole bunch of service-hours that will not be needed." will manifest itself? Perhaps the same way that the redundant service provided by Express Buss Service between the Tacoma Dome Station and 9th & Commerce which exactly duplicates the Tacoma Link Light Rail. The fact that doing something about this waste illustrates to me just how concerned transit advocates are with providing efficient service. They are not, they are not at all concerned with value for the dollar expended on transit and they are not concerned that Kevin Phelps and other politically connected individuals commercial interests are served my a multiplicity of options while most neighborhoods get NOTHING.
Why is it that everytime that A$$HOLE Paul Allen (multi-billionaire) gets a wild hair up his big fat A$$, Seattle just can't wait to give it to him. He stick to being a lousy guitarist/rock star wannabe and leave the rest of us alone. He's already proven himself to be a poor businessman (EMP) and everybody knows that sports teams almost always lose money (he has two).
He should fun his toy train street car himself - he can probably afford it.
One more point - How many commuters park downtown and take transit to the outer edges of town? I don't know of any.
10. Makes me thankful I don't live in Seattle.Anyone notice what an eyesore the Experience Music Pogect is or is It just Me!!
Because, Metro is more efficient than Pierce Transit, they have to be, they serve such a larger area. Metro serves ALL of King County, but forgets their Ridership base is in Seattle.
Also, Metro knows that the City can contract out the operation of the Waterfront Streetcar, if they wanted. They used to operate the Seattle Center Monorail.
I think the South Lake Union line is too short, but it is a more conservative approach to have it just go to Fred Hutch.
In Portland, the Pearl District Line serves an area that did not exist before streetcar construction was started. It was a rail yard, made surplus by the Southern Pacific-Union Pacific merger.(Portland was at the Northern extremities of both railroads).
I think that streetcars can replace the needs for Routes 2, and 70. In the case of the 42, the best idea to keep it running is to shift in onto Ranier, which already has a very good route, just add some extra service(perhaps increase the frequency to every 5 minutes), and combine the Skyway portions of Route 7 and 42 into one route. Seattle will gain a new trolleybus route out of it. Metro could have piggybacked onto an order for new Trolleybuses in San Francisco if they wanted, but they did not. They did buy from the San Francisco area, by buying 100 bodyshells from Gillig, taking the motors form the 900 series Trackless Trolleys, refurbishing them, and putting them in the new bodies. Now Metro is using the old tunnel buses as pure trolleybuses. They could have replaced the 4000 series by piggybacking onto Vancouver's order for Low Floor Trolleybuses, but they chose the cheaper option. Metro, in 1973, inherited a fleet of 50 trackless trolleybuses from Seattle Transit, that were built between 1940 and 1944. They were retired in 1978 when replaced by 109 new buses. The last of the PCF-Brill, Twin-Coach and Pullman-Standard buses that were retired in 1978 were between 34 and 38 years old. When Metro retired their replacements in 2003, they were up to 25 years old. I have no idea when the 4000 series trackless trolleys will be totally withdrawn from service, but in the 25 years that the AMGs were in service, Metro went through three major purchases of 40ft coaches, and 2 major purchases of 60ft coaches. A diesel bus, if bought with Federal funds, must be kept for at least 12 years, and Metro has shot for 15, but sometimes it was more like 18-20. I like the efficiency of the trolleybuses over diesel buses. The overhead power distribution system only has 36 people maintaining it, and that also includes stringing new wire for extensions, such as the new layover loops for the split 7.
By the way, if only WNP-1, WNP-3, WNP-4, and WNP-5 had been built using the same type of reactor as WNP-2, you would not have a WPPSS to compare these projects too!
(Used to be an opponent and scared of Nuclear Power, now I am a fan of that too, especially the one plant at Hanford).
13. It's nice to see that the Berkeley wannabees at the Seattle City Council could take time out of their schedules normally filled with important things like declaring Seattle a nuclear-free zone while sticking flowers into the barrels of guns etc. to something not as important like noticing that the monorail's financing will be five+ times the cost of the project and actually being a bit disturbed by that.
Nickels is the same guy that is out spending the city's time, resources, and travel budget to push the Kyoto treaty with his fellow socialist mayors around the country.
He is, of course, out of touch with reality. The best thing he could do for global warming is to deal with his own methane production problem.
Laurie - you are so right.
Eyesore and a half! I worked for an architectural firm while the EMP was completed. Not one of the architects cared for it. Of course, we all weren't intellegent enough to fully understand it. yeah right!
I don't live in Seatlle either, but I know we'll all end up paying for Seattle's flights of fancy.
Drago and Lacata - Hmm, no disrespect meant to the Italian community, but maybe these two are connected (if ya know what I mean). Mafia and the constuction industry has also been connected. Just ask Jimmy Hoffa.
16. Oh, and look for THIS headline if I-912 doesn't make the ballot: "VIADUCT, WHICH HAD NO ACTUAL SPECIFIC BUDGET OR DESIGN WHEN GAS TAX WAS INCREASED IN '05, IS PROJECTED TO COST FIVE TIMES THE AMOUNT LEGISLATORS GUESSED ORIGINALLY. NO FUNDS WILL NOW BE GIVEN TO I-405 OR A NEW 520 BRIDGE"
17. Speaking of headlines - thumbing through the PI this morning, I came accross a full page, 2 color advertisement for the monorail project. Estimated cost, 5,000 Seattle tab fees. It was a BS piece about how their opponants were trying to railroad the project (pun intended).
18. Never under-estimate the economic stupidity that can wrought by liberals in possession of someone elses' checkbook.
19. Sorry, that was in the Times, getting so I can't tell the difference.
Here is something I posted on other forums where the $11 Billion over 50 years could be better spent. The money is raised and collected in Seattle Only, so it can only be spent in Seattle.
$11 Billion could be better spent on:
1)Fixing up the Backlog of street maintenance that the city has only been able to do $30 million of a year. The Backlog is $500 million. Then set some aside in a road maintenance trust fund for future use.
-Re-widen SR 167(Ranier Ave between Ranier Beach and Renton
-Put streetlights on Lake Washington Boulevard and a few other safety improvements on tight curves(keep the curves, put in a small concrete block about 3 feet tall, and surrounded by bushes.)
-A new bridge connection to Delridge to be a backup route in case of a collapse of the West Seattle Bridge(It may never happen, but imagine if it does).
-A Starter segment from International District Station to Ranier Ave and I-90 Freeway Station.
-From Northgate to NE 145th
-From the Central Link line to Lake City(laying the foundation of a line in the SR522 corridor).
-A Light Rail line from Downtown Seattle to Ballard and North Seattle(Green Line Corridor), as orginally proposed in Sound Transit Long Range Planning.
-First Leg of a SR520 Light Rail line.
(All of these stop at the Seattle City Limits, because the Monorail is a Seattle Only Project)
- Extending South Lake Union Line from Fred Hutch to U-District.
- A Line along 45th St to connect Ballard LRT with U-District.
-Streetcar Circulators in areas all along Central Link, such as Lake City, Downtown Seattle.
-Connecting South Lake Union Streetcar with Waterfront Streetcar.
4)Enhanced Bus/Bus Rapid Transit
-Extending Seattle's Trackless Trolley Network, with more buses to add frequencies to heavily used routes such as the 2,3,4, and 7.
-Using Fuel Cell Stacks to power the grid, at least partially.
-Priority Lanes for heavily traveled bus routes.
-Enhancing Heavily Used Bus Stops into Super Stops.
-Bus Rapid Transit on key lines that feed into High Capacity Transit Lines.
-Sounder Station at Pier 70, connecting Streetcars with Sounder, and North Downtown Seattle.
-Sounder Station at Interbay.
-Sounder Station at Ballard.
-Sounder Station near Shoreline.
-Sounder Station at Georgetown.
-Sounder Station at King County International Airport/Boeing Field.
-Making the Elliot Bay Water Taxi Year round. Have it be a redundant link in case a repeat of June 11, 1978 happens again, that could be worse.
This is just one possibility of what the money could be better spent on than the Monorail, assuming what the P-I is saying is right.
21. Misspelled progect on first post.Thanks for input Jeffro,the sad part is it is clearly visable from the freeway ouch!! Good news everyone!! if all goes well 912 may get the signtures it needs & get on the ballot how about that!! It would be a good idea for ther to be an iniative for the monarail.
$11 Bil. will buy a LOT of Segway scooters for every monorail supporter with change to spare for rain ponchos and backpacks; very green; very Seattle;
monetary savings go right back into the coffers for bigger tent cities and huge compensation fund for "fair value" confiscations (progressive development) of your house a-la the latest SCOTUS case; There--I solved it in 5 minutes;
Mass Transit, excluding buses, of any flavor is a religion in Seattle. No amount of data on the finances, rider-ship, true costs, total cost ownership, operating costs. Nothing will make an impact.
A true believer, believes that Monorail, Light Rail, with full faith in the precepts of their religion.
It is Heresy to opposes the Monorail, the religion of Mass Transit worships as one of it's gods, Monorail. To question the intentions, motivations, and logic of the acolytes of Monorail is to be a heretic.
Nothing that is contrary to the faith of Mass Transit is even acceptable in the discussion, only true believers allowed.
Prepare to be burn at the stake as a sacrifice to the god Monorail.
Man you must be so filthy rich if you are putting Paul Allen down for be a bad business man. PA has only billions, you must have so much more, given you are so much better a businessman!
BTW Sports franchises make plenty of money, creative accounting helps them, along with tax supports.
(shameless copy&post from my other thread--but applicable now?)
How long from the State Treasurer's "dump it" to the time the Mono-bureaucracy is disbanded or no longer draws a paycheck? Time's a tickin'.
The Monorail to West Seattle makes sense, as it is the only rail-based transit that can get over the Duwamush without stopping Maritime Traffic, but the Monorail to Ballard does not go far enough, that is one reason I have a problem with it. I know it can work, and the one we got does not go far enough. Just for the World's Fair alone it should have gone to Sea-Tac Airport, with a stop at Boeing Field and King Street Station. We need starter lines built, that can be plugged in with extensions at a later date. Nobody(but a few) seems to notice with the Portland Blue Line, that extensions seem to keep popping out. Soon they will have used most of the banked Right of Way on I-205. I would like to see Monorail or Light Rail be part of highway improvements, maybe even use the FAIR Lanes concept.
I am a supporter of Amtrak Cascades too, and think it should be plugged into every airport within a radius of 2 miles of the line capable of supporting commercial traffic, that means Sea-Tac, Boeing Field, and Paine Field. I have been asking around on Railfan boards about how small of a platform would be needed at the Passenger Terminal for King Coutny International Airport, and they said that just an ADA mini-high level platform and long enough to handle three cars would be good.(That is what I asked specifically). They went further, telling how their are a few commuter rail platforms in the Northeast that are way smaller than the platforms at Grand Central or Pennsylvania Station, these are so small, that they are long enough to accomodate just one set of doors.
27. MASSTRANSITFAN either you are a dope or a total wastrel or both. SOUND TRANSIT opperates two 100% REDUNDANT transit options to serve the route between the Tacoma Dome Station and 9th/10th & Commerce. This is, by muy best count, AT LEAS 2,500 annual service hours that could be reallocated elsewhere where it would actually benefit someone, but if that were done business interests of the politically connected would not have a multitude of taxpayer funded options and that my friends is how things such as this are determined in 'America's #1 Weird City.'
MASSTRANSITFAN, the answer this one question is all anyone needs to know about ST and the dodorail folks motives. That is why you avoid answering it, as did Sim's, Ladenberg, Phelps, the entire Tacoma City Council and each and every board member of ST when I posed it to them ~ a year ago.
WHY IS SOUND TRANSIT RUNNING REDUNDANT EXPRESS SERVICE TO 9th & COMMERCE , WHEN THE LIGHT RAIL ALREADY SERVES IT?
This impresses me as further evidence that ST has no intention of spending the public's money wisely. Furthermore since we have the Light Rail "up and running" why continue tying up traffic and tearing up the roads in downtown Tacoma by operating bus service that duplicates the rail service.
I myself am not a businessman and never will be. I have a couple of very successful MBA friends that slam his business savy and his business sense. If you take a look at PA's business ventures since MS - you will see many more failures than successes. Doesn't matter though, he'll never even come close to spending/losing all his billions, especially with the tax paying serfs financing his ventures.
Be very suspicious of anything called a Public/Private Partnership if it involves Seattle/KingCo and PA.
I am a 'Hawks fan though.
I have several times said that the 590 routes should have their downtown Tacoma legs cut off, and even better, their Downtown Seattle legs cut off. THe North Lot at the Hawk(I refuse to call that stadium by it's corporate name) could be a good site of Transit Oriented Development, having it be a layover terminal for commuter buses, keeping them off the Downtown Streets, same with COnvention Place Station. Metro with the shift to Hybrid Buses, no longer needs the open-air layover facility for tunnel buses at Convention Place, they should sell the developmental rights, with the provision they can use the bottom two floors as a layover spot. Hours from truncating the 590s in Downtown Tacoma could be better spent extending the hours of service on Tacoma Link, and even better, give Intercity Transit some competition, extend the 590s to Olympia, and Intercity Transit would have a choice, competet with an agency that has superior equipment on the Olympia-Tacoma run, or re-deploy those service hours to better serve Thurston County.
I have been consistent on being against one-seat rides. If a Seattle Resident that is taking the bus to do some buisness in North Seattle(I go to the Apple Store @ U-Villiage to get my computer fixed), has to change buses up to 4 times to get there, then somebody from Enumclaw, or Tacoma should not have a one-seat ride to Seattle.
31. Every theme park needs a monorail - and Seattle has become a theme park run by, and for, hand-wringing bedwetting liberals living out their 1960's fantasies.
'I have several times said that the 590 routes should have their downtown Tacoma legs cut off' so what, you ran your big fat pie hole.
Like that is going to end this colossal waste. I contacted EVERY SINGLE ST OFFICIAL and EVERY SINGLE ELECTED OFFICIAL in ‘America’s #1 Weird City’ ant NOT ONE OF THEM SAW THIS WASTEFUL PRACTICE AS ‘A PROBLEM.’
Every stinking one of them either defended the practice or did not respond.
Prior to me taking you and the rest of your ilk seriously waste like this would have to be taken seriously enough by you that you would do more than just run your mouth about it.
I have a possible solution for the City of Seattle to fund the Monorail, as well as dealing with the Alaskan Way viaduct situation.
Call a special session of the legislature. Triple the MVET in the City of Seattle from 1.7% (which also includes 0.3% for Sound Transit) to 5.1%. Use 1.4% of this MVET increase to double the monorail revenues, and allow this relatively useless project to be paid off in 25 years for less than $4 billion without junk bond financing. Use the other 2.0% of the MVET increase to replace the Alaskan Way viaduct with an expensive tunnel – since the gas tax increase will be repealed in November.
This plan only needs a simple majority of the legislature to be adopted. Not a single member from Seattle needs to vote for it. Every GOP member can support it without fear of political backlash, since none of them are from Seattle. The people of Seattle have no right to vote on this proposal. It can only be reversed by a statewide vote.
Have the legislature put in an emergency clause, so that a referendum cannot be held on the matter. It will take an initiative to reverse it, which requires 250,000 signatures – nearly every single registered voter in Seattle.
Make the initiative impossible in any event. Make the new law effective immediately, and sell bonds for the monorail and viaduct the same day the new 5.1% MVET takes effect in Seattle. That way, even if enough signatures to qualify an initiative are gathered, and even if the statewide electorate decides to give Seattle a reprieve from its liberal masochism – the initiative will still be void, since the bonds will have already been sold, and repealing the 5.1% MVET would impair contractual obligations
I would really love to see the rich liberal Democrats of Seattle paying over $4,000 per year in MVET on their Mercedes and BMW’s at the new 5.1% rate …
MASSTRANSITFAN states, "We need starter lines that can add extensions at a later date", and uses the Portland Streetcar as an example.
The Portland Streetcar began with predictably sufficient ridership before developing the abandoned railyards. Unlike Portland, there isn't sufficient ridership to begin with on the route from Westlake Mall to Lake Union.
Lake Union has a far greater transportation need: fixing the Mercer Mess. There is no rational plan laid out to fix it; only talk of fixing it, and some ideas for fixing it that seem ridiculous. Fix the Mess and then talk about a streetcar, for cryin out loud.
Similarly, the proposed Green Line monorail doesn't have sufficient ridership base to justify construction or extensions, let alone its exorbitant cost.
For example: revealed in the latest monorail details - it will have a track switch on the south side of Seattle Center near the TV studio, so that trains can run south through downtown more frequently. If this switch were installed at the next station north, Key Arena, many more riders from Queen Anne destinations is a no-brainer if the planners actually cared about serving the most people. The route on 2nd Avenue through downtown won't serve the most people. Nor will the Interbay route serve as many people as the East Alternative route to Ballard.
We should care about the cost, which is criminally exorbitant. But, we should also care about how the line is built, especially because it is not built to even minimal standards.
I didn't see the full-page ad you mention, but I got a shiny brochure in the mail explaining the 'good news' of the monorail bid being accepted. It is filled with stuff that at best could be called 'spin', but to me seems closer to outlight lies. I just love getting blitzed by propaganda from the pro-monorail side and paying for it with my tax money when I am totally opposed, don't you? (I pay the car tab tax, at least for now.)
Blame Seattle voters, not politicans, for the monorail. Most of the city council and the rest of city government opposed this dumb project from the start, but after it passed 4 separate votes, they had no political choice but to make the best of it. Now that we are learning that it is even dumber than we'd thought, hopefully they will kill it.
Masstransitfan, I liked your list of more useful transit investments. How about another: Make all transit in King County free. Of course this would increase ridership, which would increase costs as well as eliminating fare revenue ... but I bet it would take more vehicles off the streets -- and do more for quality of life -- than the monorail, and maybe more than light rail.
38. Spare us this "masstransitfan" and its endless monologues about shlepping daydreaming cityfellers (minus armloads of shopping bags, and without side trips to the vacuum cleaner repair) back and forth along one thin line. Hasn't it got some useful work to do, or concise ideas to offer?
Feel your pain. Love having my money spent on garbage only to have it shoved down my throat. Born and raised in Seattle - moved to the Eastside 10 years ago and have never looked back. If I still lived in Seattle I'd be registering my wheels outside the city or drive a POS.
Here's an idea, sell residence addresses outside of Seattle for 25% less than the MVET.
I think that Richard is on the right track. And after the mess that Seattle caused for the red parts of the state, even if they can get it on the ballots there is no way the rest of the state is going to vote for anything that helps residents of Seattle.
The only thing that I would add is very stiff penalties for anyone found skirting the new/improved MVET. Similar to what they do for folks in my neck of the woods that have OR plates but live in WA. Much, much stiffer fines.
'I would really love to see the rich liberal Democrats of Seattle paying over $4,000 per year in MVET on their Mercedes and BMW’s at the new 5.1% rate …'
I have an aquaintence who lives (just less than enough to be considered a resident)in California. His 'residence' is in Tahoe and it is 100% paid for by his tax savings over having California be his 'residence.'
If you think that people with enough money to drive a vehicle worth $60 to $100 grand are going to pay Much of any MVET you are a damn fool. They can also afford a vacation place that is not located in Seattle which is where they will 'keep' and register their second their first car will be a 1986 Ford Granada and the similar Plymouth Volare'for the wife.
So there suckers, since you can't afford the vacation place in the Olympics, it's YOU who will pay. ROTFLMAO at you and anybody that thinks they can vote for other people to pay for what they want too, 'The Ritch' are smarter thant you think.
42. This is all so much crap -- probably 50 to 70 percent of the people that work downtown and more like 80% of the professionals - live outside the city limits and are the ones who will benefit the most from any transport improvements in Seattle -- for instance the Vashon Islanders are a main target for the monorail and they ain't paying no MVT for seattle projects - likewise the godzillian people that live on the eastside and come into the city every day -- (or is that just a mirage I see on the bridges??)-- All of King Co. and parts of the others are gonna benefit and should be chipping in.
It's even worse than your comments. The people most likely to use the monorail - those without automobiles - don't have to pay anything. Those least likely to use it - those with cars - shoulder the entire burden. It's just another big income-redistribution scheme.
Furthermore, after paying in thousands of dollars per household, will Seattle residents get a discount to ride the Monorail? No way - Seattle residents will pay exactly the same Monorail fare as Spokane residents visiting the city.
It's a bigger boondoggle than the Big Dig.
44. Being as it's Seattle knotheads that decided to build a convention center atop the freeway and it's Seattle envirowhacos that are primarily responsible for the huge cost of doing anything, my feelings tosward Seattle are 'if you want it either PAY FOR IT YOURSELVES or STFU about it'
45. That monorail brochure sounds as meaningful as that "Election Report" that Sims and Logan mailed notice of to everyone in KC
46. Richard Love your idea!!It made me smile from ear to ear!!
The MSM is getting on the smell over at SMP.
What? The number don't add up! Imagine that!
The money line:
"KING 5 asked the SMP for documentation and it faxed over a spreadsheet. But a couple of financial officers said these numbers aren't the actual amount they borrowed and the monorail's calculations are not numbers they're familiar with."
SMP playing fast and loose with the numbers? This keeps getting better all the time.
48. Give councilman C a lap dance and $1200 and you contractors shall have your monorail.
Right wing argument is ridiculous. The entire gist of right wing understanding is 'blame liberals for every wrong'. Meanwhile, rich conservative businessmen establish monopolies, practice extortion and convince rank-n-file republicans that liberals are to blame.
Sharkansky knows that a wrongs are being committed with the monorail, but he says very little about it other than liberals are to blame. Don't you characters ever feel like you're being conditioned into conformity?, trained to accept simplistic answers?, herded like sheep? Baaaaaaa! Baaaa! Look out! Someone's a-comin with a pair of sheers! Must be a liberal.
Artie: The spotlight is on ya boy...Let's see what you've got!
Why don't you prove your notion that we're being "conditioned into conformity". Show us your evidence of "rich conservative businessmen establish(ing) monopolies, practice(ing) extortion" yada yada yada. Reveal for us the rampant corruption that you would have us believe rivals the scurrilous democraps infesting Seattle.
Do you think you could stop picking your nose long enough to do that?
Or are you just another witless, feckless boob?
How 'bout put up or STFU?!!
'Or are you just another witless, feckless boob?'
From my vantage point it appears that the libs see this being a ‘witless, feckless boo’ as synonymous with leading a virtuous life. Just look at their wrapping their arms around 'Super Size Me' as their latest woe is me, I am a victim bla bla bla yada yada yada march to victim hood.
STFU and take responsibility for something you pathetic loser leftist POSs.
The evidence that republicans are being conditioned into conformity is right here on these boards. It doesn't matter what a liberal says, the 'conditioned response' is nearly always simplistic, coarse and meaningless.
The business leaders in the US and Seattle are conservative, period. Their main object is profit, not serving the public. Whether they call themselves liberal or conservative, they can be judged by their deeds. When their deeds are corrupt profiteering, then the ideology behind them is free market conservatism.
I do not expect a single response to my latest post to be different from so many others: simplistic, coarse and meaningless.
The vile, corrupt, hypocrit conservative sons of bitches that run this country are the reason Osama bin laden attacked us.
53. Now I know why some animals eat their young ;'}
54. Sounds like Artie has lived in a tent city too long!In that case Alphabet Soup above may be right.