June 23, 2005
Die, Monorail, Die
It's not just the right-wing wackos here at Sound Politics who want the Seattle Monorail Project to die a rapid and compassionate death, its also a leading Democrat: "State treasurer says halt monorail"
With Seattle's monorail headed for a contract signing next month, state Treasurer Mike Murphy yesterday urged local officials to shut the project down.
Murphy is worried because the Seattle Monorail Project's financing plan — which includes 40-year bonds, deferred interest payments and some high-interest "junk bonds" — would require $11.4 billion in taxes through the year 2053 to fund a $2.1 billion elevated train system.
"I'm hoping good sense will prevail at the monorail board and they will stop dead in their tracks," Murphy said in an interview.
Emphasis on the word
dead. And some members of the City Council
finally seem to be catching on.
Meanwhile, Joni Balter applies her trademark insight to analyze this year's City Council races.
For all the energetic jockeying for seats on the Seattle City Council, this doesn't seem like a year for major change. The economy is steady. Grumbling about King County elections aside, civic life is all but scandal-free. And The Single Big Issue has yet to appear
Hey, Joni -- you have an $11 billion collect call. ON THE CLUE PHONE.
The P-I editorial board, on the other hand, shows signs of brain activity today. And there's a poll: "Is $11 billion too much to pay over 45 years to build a $1.9 billion monorail system expected to serve the city for 50 or even 100 years?" 84% say "Yes", at this writing.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 23, 2005
12:43 AM | Email This
1. Is Mike Murphy gearing up for another election run? I can't believe and I don't think it is appropriate for him to be making comments. His job is to review and offer comment to the agency.
2. Makes sense that you'd want to talk more about the monorail than the no gas tax deal, since you and your pals who support it just got caught BREAKING THE LAW -------- AGAIN!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/229690_gastax23.html
Tough living in a world where BOTH sides can play by the same rules eh?
That is all.
3. Huh? shark is equally talking about both. There are also topics on unSound Transit.
Just like a representative of the far left with short attentin span to focus on a couple of days of topics. Don't you think there is a bunch of monorail stuff coming down the pike this week? When the initiative gets validated, there will be lots of discussion on that, too. Don't worry.
Lush, while your side made up the PDC rules, it is your side that violates them "big time". As a person who had to do PDC disclosures at one time, I was lucky to have a bookkeeper and we mostly stayed out of trouble. Your governor and legislature, when they declared an emergency, didn't give much time for the initiative to get going. Of course, there are glitches at startup.
4. Good morning fish. So tell me how this works. Do you RECEIVE the daily, and always unoriginal talking points from your pointy-headed friends, or do you originate the second-grade level bile?
I don't really care, but, oh well, nah...I don't realy care. The results are the same (brainless).
5. Flushie, your powers of reasoning are even more stunted than your ability to read.
Obviously, there is no point is trying to explain any of this to you, because you have shown yourself too dim to comprehend anything more complicated than how to point the nozzle on your spray paint so you can take another hit.
Didn't your mom tell you to go clean up the dog poo before playing on the internet?
6. Must be some contractors getting up early today.
They get a little edgy when people start asking questions about public works.
7. Nick Licata does have some sense of proportion regarding public expenses, and he owes his seat on the City Council to the notoriety he achieved in loudly opposing public funding of the Mariner stadium.
Yesterday, his weekly email talking points did take up the monorail, but his language was so slick and guarded that it was hard to tell if he even has a position on the impending Big Dig. He does, in the PI, posit the idea of another public vote.
Now, if another public vote is appropriate for the Monorail, where the hell is our public vote on Sound Transit and all its bait-and-switch misrepresentations? Hasten the day.
8. Flushman,
Where were you when the Democratic Party had multipile disclosure failures after repeated warnings? That's the State Democratic Party with paid "expert" staff vs a volunteer organization. Hummm neither is good, but who looks worse?
9. This is the equivalent of a family of four spending $16,000 on their credit card and then making the minimum payment only. This is their share of the monorail cost.
Over the term of the debt this family of four pays $80,000 in principle and interest.
The population estimate for the City of Seattle in 2004 is 572,600.
10. Should we really be calling it the Monorail still...I thought it was the Stadium Transport Rail...all I ever hear from folks in my Fauntleroy Community is I can't wait to take the Monorail to the M's Games and I can't wait to take the Monorail to the Seahawks Games! Does this really make any sense? And can I sit next to Joel Horn and Tom Weeks on the way to the Games? Will they be riding the Stadium Transport Rail too?
11. Although I am normally inclined to take the counterpoint to Stefan on most issues, we may have common cause here. I voted against the monorail in the early ballots (2, 3 times, I don't remember any more) on the theory that a Disney-land ride is not a solution to a transit problem. I voted against the recent anti-monorail initiative on the theory that at some point society has to make a final decision and act on it. Okay, wrong on that one. Turns out, the ride from Ballard to West Seattle is an EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ticket. Walt would be proud.
Despite the recent election results, I suspect that much of the support for the monorail is soft. How does one kill it at this point? Is the City Council permit process the only way?
12. Flush,
What law was broken? Is it the same as what happened in the 2004 election? Than who cares! Prove it AH. Until then empty your catheter, your urine has backed up and drowned your brain.
13. Hey Matt Rosenberg, If your out there:
Are you still in favor of this project? If so, will you put your 2 cents in? It would be nice to get an opinion from a pro monorail person who is ....lets say, better educated and more trustworthy than the current spokesperson....Lush
14. Saying this plan reflects "the will of the people" is flat wrong. None of those four previous votes had a price tag. Now, for the first time, there are detailed plans and a price tag.
The price is way too high. Monorails may be a popular concept in Seattle, but this plan is not. Put this plan, at this price, to a vote and it would go down in flames.
15. Actually I finally have to give the monorail guys big props for being honest in the total cost of a project over its lifetime. Almost every other public project and many private ones are qouted in current dollars. It's actually moderately refreshing to see people get the idea of how much things REALLY cost. Who knew that having basic finances explained to the masses would finally kill it! :-)
16. I find it rather interesting that you will have to show more proof that you live at a certain address to register your car than you will to register to vote.
The liberal "License place Nazis" are gearing up to ferret out the cheaters.
17. That would be license "plate" Nazis
my bad
18. I remember when I bought my house the financial disclosure form for the 30-yr loan when rates were almost twice what they are now showed that total interest paid would only = about 133% of principal.
Quite a difference from what these folks want to do to taxpayers.
19. I don't know what all the monorail angst is all about with us conservatives. Seattle is a liberal bastion. Why shouldn't they be allowed to pi$$ away $14 Billion of liberal money? It will just keep them from spending it on other liberal projects and political trechery. Have fun riding the rail liberals!
20. Unforunately, Seattle mega projects like this one have ripple effects throughout the state. Bond ratings have been mentioned as one potential negative effect on the rest of us. And then there's the other projects (e.g. viaduct) that will be up to the rest of us to help fund. The entire viaduct could have been paid for with the money they are using for this erector set.
21. Scott C, I wouldn't give a flying rip except that you know that these people will eventually come to Olympia with their hand out, saying wierd stuff like "The whole state benefits from the tourism, etc...." , much in the same way Sound Transit eventually showed up in Olympia to ask (and receive) hundreds of millions of dollars to throw down a rat hole. Sound Transit initially said they wouldn't do that, but sure changed their tune later on, and their 206-area code friends in the legis. went for it.
22. Sound Transit also said there would be overruns since they were already factored in.
23. Maybe it's time for a state wide tax boycott on Seattle/ King County. If they are hit in the checkbook the city council may start making responsible actions.
24. Not sure, didn't read above, but would the new "train" actually last as long as the debt? Probably not!
25. Hey Lush,
You inspired me to collect another 20 signatures at the gas station this afternoon. It will be worth the 15 minutes to p-ss off another loser socialist troll like yourself. Thanks for keeping me inspired!
http://nonewgastax.com
26. We need this topic for discussion.
Just when things couldn't look worse, liberals on the United States Supreme Court have handed government and developers the brass ring. In a 5-4 ruling today, the court has given governments the right to take land from private landowners and give it to other private landowners.
In her dissent, Sandra O'Connor stated her disagreement with the court's liberals, led by Justice Stevens. She argued that cities should not have unlimited authority to uproot families, even if they are provided compensation, simply to accommodate wealthy developers.
"Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random," she wrote. "The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms."
Ginsberg, Stevens, Breyer, Souter and Kennedy have simply abandoned the Constitution for big omnipotent government. The curious thing is that the development community, who generally supports Republicans, were rebuffed by the conservative majority on the court that chose to put that Constitution above government power and help for the growth industries.
In Washington State, though, it will be both Republicans and Democrats who will go to work now on behalf of the growth industries to steal private property from weak landowners so it can be given to the wealthiest and most powerful. Mark my words, no one is safe this morning.
Private property rights just took what is perhaps their biggest hit ever. What's your's is your's only until someone more powerful and more influential wants it. Then you're out of luck, without even the law to protect your right to what's your's.
A sad day.
27. Until you realize that you do not own your property, but are only renting it, I can see you will have problems with the decision.
That is the Communist way. Just ask Hans Dunshee.
28. "Stevens was joined in his opinion by other members of the court's liberal wing - David H. Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen G. Breyer."
The Liberals are back at work stealing your property.
That is why I favor killing the fillibuster and appointing some Conservative Judges. It is about time!
29. That SCOTUS decision has quite a bit of relevance to this monorail project. If and when this monorail is built, what happens to the land values within close proximity to the rail stations? The powers that be in Seattle government will be after all those single family homes nearby in order to redevelop into larger (and more dense) condominiums for more property tax revenues. And now with carte blanche from SCOTUS, they don't even need permission from the homeowners.
30. Supreme Court ruling:
Anything to protect the hegemony of government to "reshape" your life for the sake of achieving the utopia visions of a select few.
31. The SCOTUS has handed our friend Simms a gold mine. He can now sell off all the lakeside property (Washington and Sammamish) to developers. 30 floor condos are in the making! What a property tax windfall! He can then move on to the Newcastle Golf course. It is already cleard for view homes, sorry condos. KC will be flush in money!
32. A bit off the topic . . . but still on transportation. Have all of you real people done your part with "no new gas tax" petitions? I actually took one to a family reunion and was able to fill it quickly. I gave away a blank one to another lady at Curves. Carry one with you everywhere! Opportunities will present themselves. If you have friends, relatives, business associates on the other side of the big mountains (Olympics and Cascades), be sure they have petitions, too. I just spoke with Brett Bader at the initiative office, and he said they are moving forward unbelievably well, but we can't let up. Each of us needs to make this happen. This one is in OUR hands . . . we don't have to depend on liberal judges, county executives, turncoat legislators, wacky council members, pretend governors. WE have the power on this one. Let's quit complaining and use the power we have!
33. On the monorail:
Going forward with this $11 billion cost for a $1.9 billion system (setting aside for a moment that it is nothing more than a circus ride) would be like the city telling it's citizens -
"You should fulfill your every desire NOW. Don't wait! Max out your credit cards, take out a mortgage equity loan for 30 years to pay them off, then max out the credit cards again!"
Then, there is Nickels, who said on NWCN yesterday that the voters of Seattle voted for silly-rail four times. Implying that no matter what, it's gotta be built (so you know where he is headed). He said:
"With the time value of money, future payments are smaller in today's dollars."
Show me a company in private industry that uses that sort of profoundly stupid illogic to make financing decisions, and I'll show you a company in bankruptcy, or close to it.
When you use the "future value of money" to discount A PROJECT, you compare the future cash flow (e.g., revenue less expenses). The discount factor already has inflation and the interest rate built into it.
What a freaking moron.
34. Oh, and if you put a vote before the idealistic and unrealistic people of seattle to ESTABLISH A LOVE AND PEACE COLONY ON MARS, they will pass it.
Just because they want it does not mean it is possible. The love children of Seattle need Nickels to step up and be their patriarchal master. All children need an adult to step in from time to time in order to say "no" when they are about to make a bad decision.
35. Yup been collecting signatures everyday. I see about 80% of people are signing, and 70 - 80 is about what I am experiencing also, many with real vigor. I also think I heard yesterday that the NoNewGasTax campaign included blank initiatives in aprox 225,000 newspapers as add in's. I thought that was a rather novel idea.
36. 5-4 Decisions Don't Set a Precedent (?)
Isn't it true that when SCOTUS divides 5-4, no precedent is set? Or no precedent is set outside the Circuit Court from whence the case was appealed to SCOTUS?
Where did this case originate?
37. Help on Gas Tax Petition Location
Anybody know of a location in the vicinity of the Renton Highlands?
38. ewaggin, if you can venture over to Fairwood, I have an extra petition I can give to you to gather signatures, or you can sign mine. Just email me.
39. Ayn Rand tells all about this in "We the Living". Based on her actual life experiences after the Soviet take-over in Russia. People's homes were declared "state property" and became multi-family dwellings. You get to keep the living room, we're moving the Kazinski's into the family room, the Komosov's into the dining room...
This Supreme Court decision opens the doors for this type of confiscation.
40. I don't care about Murphy's reasons for advising the monorail death. I'm surprised that ANYONE governmental dared speak against it. Politics? Election hopes? Maybe. In any case, it was SO ludicrous that it must have hit a nerve with anyone possessing even a modicum of understanding finances or sensible public projects.
Like CA financing Vy-agra for its convict sex offenders, it was so over the top, that it had to be addressed. The govt guys did not want to be caught at the caboose of the public outrage train & commenting later like a bunch of milquetoasts.
Medically, this is called the "King County Elections Response (strain 2004)" in governmental patients. They are perhaps now becoming a bit sensitive to outright asinine proposals, and their higher brains instruct their vocal cords to actually say something sensible. Who knows, with luck, this newly-diagnosed response will spread as fast as a rash in a San Fran bathhouse.
41. "....with luck, this newly-diagnosed response will spread as fast as a rash in a San Fran bathhouse."
Ya sure do know how to turn a phrase there Jimmie boy!
42. Just read about Snohomish Co. politicians not wanting to allow the $250 million NASCAR track up there because of a "mere" $50 in road improvements needed. Seattle isn't squawking about $11 BILLION in debt service for something that only goes what...50 miles an hour?
43. That's... a "mere" $50 Million in road improvements...
44. Speaking of "... San Fran bathhouse." I wonder what the crisis mongers behind the movie Super Size Me would have to say if the same methodology were used to say illustrate what would happen to some 'poor uninformed slob' who decided to visit a San Fran bathhouse three times per day, get horned up the keester untold number of times per visit. Might make the 'blotchy skin' they are so excized about the poor slob in Super Size Me has look rather trivial, Huh........................
45. scott, there were bigger issues than that. For example, they wanted a monopoly of merchandise, they wanted no sales tax on their merchandise or tickets. They wanted the ability to hold a couple of events and didn't want to commit to the "Bid Daddy" races, and on and on.
While the race venue looked good and while they were pushing it as a job creator (a couple of years ago), we found it only created about 1 full time job per about 30 acres.
Also, a four year college was better suited to the area.
And they didn't want to pay property tax, either.
So, why would anybody want NASCAR?
46. Well....SnoCo's loss is Bremerton's gain I guess. The fact that they are dealing with one landowner rather than 30 in Marysville was likely another deciding factor. I'm no hardcore fan, but I wouldn't mind going over to Bremerton for a NASCAR race when it comes here.
47. Fortunately, the Washington State Constitution places more severe restrictions on property confiscation than does the Federal Constitution. It expressly forbids the taking of one person's private property to give to another private party. The problem is, the definition of "private party" could be construed to mean different things to different people. There may already be a case before the WSSC regarding this.
48. "The problem is, the definition of "private party" could be construed to mean different things to different people."
I think that's the key to this. Couldn't the government of a certain city set up a company, call it Sound Development, and under the guise of "community development" use that entity as the recipient of a piece of private property that it wishes to transfer ownership in the name of progress/gentrification/beautification/etc? Sound Development could then contract out design, building and construction of said liberal utopia.
49. I don't think monorail supporters are particularly Democratic. The monorail started as a grassroots movement led by a West Seattle bus driver. Most elected officials in Seattle and King County, as well as the rest of the political and business establishment, opposed it. But voters, probably frustrated with traffic and the uncertainty surrounding Sound Transit, voted for the monorail (or against initiatives to stop it) 4 different times. By the 3rd and 4th votes, some elected officials accepted its inevitability and started trying to make the best of it.
By all means the majority of Seattle voters deserve scorn for supporting such a ridiculous project. And, of course, the majority of Seattle voters are Democrats. But my impression is that supporters and opponents have about the same party makeup.
Would another initiative to block the monorail pass? I know a few people who originally opposed the monorail but also opposed the last initiative to block it on the premise that we need to stay the course and actually do something about traffic rather than constantly changing our minds, even if this project was flawed. (I didn't buy that argument.) But maybe now that the project is getting smaller and more expensive and later and uglier, and people realize how much it's costing them, support would be lower.
50. Just a couple additions here re the moonbat-a-rail >> one dead giveaway to the stupidity of the design/routing is that it goes to the Alaska Juction and then down California Ave - an already choked up narrow street - then goes only as far (I think) as the Morgan St junction -- was originally sold as going all the way to the Fauntleroy Ferry -- and I believe it has now been shortened ala the light rail to the airport ain't a-gonna get there -- the moonbat-a-rail shoulda gone down the wider more open Fauntleroy Ave - all the way from Avalon -- more direct route -- and only crossed California Ave at Morgan --
We have to pay billions - that's with a 'B' folks -- to facilitate the commutes of a few dozen Vashon Islanders -- I think NOT -- how much extra are they paying on their cartabs for this luxurious service?? -- not a damn cent boys and girls -- as well as all the other suburbanites that will use the monorail to get to the stadiums in order to avoid the exhorbitant parking charges -- hell 3/4's of the people commuting from Vashon probably won't even use the monorail due to the fact that it doesn't go anywhere near where they need to go - except when they are going to the games - how much are the pro-sports interests chipping in here -- hey I bet - NOT A CENT
And of course the stupidity of the light rail going from the airport to the UW - what total CRAP - who in 'ell would use light rail to get to/from the airport to downtown or epecially from the airport to UW?? --
51. My two cents. If I remember correctly were these votes even close. Could KC lax election policy have cause the initiative to pass. It would be interesting to look at those votes. If you can show a trend you can prove fraud. KC wanted the monorail.
Those who support the monorail think of the overall cost. You will still be paying for it when the monorail needs to be replaced or upgraded. SO you can easily add several more billion dollars to the bill due to maintenance and repair.
On further reflection how much is the taxpayer going to pay every year to fund running this project. YOu have COnstruction cost, You have Interest payments. THen add in Maintenance and personal to run the system costs. Will they even take in enough fares to pay 100% of the annual running costs? I know the tax payer funds between 60 and 75% of the bus service. May be we can raise bus fares 200% to help pay for the monorail. Or should I say the shortfall in money to pay for all the maintenance of Buses, Monorail, Light rail boy you got your annual KC budget right there. We dont need to pay for any roads because they wont have the money for anything else. JUst like Seattle wants no roads for cars. then you can get rid of the bus system because there will be no roads. If there are no roads you can get rid of Light rail and monorail because no one can go to the city to work. Because any goods produced can not leave the port because no All terrain Trucks are not manufactured. Eventually no taxes collected and nothing gets done.
Seattle build your light rail and monorail. Because in the end it will cut businesses out of Seattle. No jobs no liberal lifestyle to support. I like this idea. Western KC becomes a ghost town because they can not support a business climate that will attract businesses to the City. Businesses are not a bottomless pit of money. IT is money from all the workers who buy their goods. Here they will put all their money so they can not build a viaduct with out its 4 billion dollar cost being expanded for interest payments to another 10 billion as a guess. Because Gas tax revenue will not continue to rise as people leave to find work.
THe monorail is the last stake by the evil conservatives to destroy Seattle. We are making them spend all the money on everything but roads. IT is the evil conservatives that prevent any success on these social changing transportation systems. Because it is the conservative businessmen and women leaving the state to go somewhere where Cost to do business is less so they can make a bigger profit and maybe sale their product for less. THe government taxation of businesses is one of those hidden taxes on the people. Everything you buy actual ends up with a hefty tax bill included in it.
WHen the sad fact is everyone has their finger in the government pie eventually there will be nothing left so that it will starve to death. SHile it is starving it will attempt to take from everyone else. IT is your city. Your decision.
52. I was once a Democrat-No longer will I ever support these lying Socialist bastards. I think it was Ronald Reagan who once said"I did not leave the party,it was the party that left me".As a small Businessman I own 4 trucks and I'm paying through the nose so that pimps like Joel Horn make $188,000 a year.I will never use the Monorail and the worse part is that it will not address ANY of the transportation issues we are currently faced with today.As a fiscal conservative I now support I-912 and will do everything I can do to stop these Socialist Democrats like Greg Nickels,Ron Simsand Christine Gregoire from enacting their misguided agendas.
53. Hallelujah!
Finally a politician with the courage, integrity and expertise to pronounce the death sentence on this gawdawful turkey.
Murphy, in a delicious putdown of the spoiled Seattle voters who approved the moronrail, said: "The average guy can't afford a Ferrari, because he can't afford it. There should be someone at the monorail saying we can't afford this thing. The numbers keep getting bigger and bigger."
54. The Seattle Times thinks that the city is great.
Joni Balter writes "The only thing really wrong in the city is the direction, or lack of it, at Seattle Public Schools." She must like the monorail and the light rail and the elections and the chopping of trees.........
55. Monorail just lost my support. It is too bad Seattle Monorail did not choose Team Monorail's design. They have already stated that can build the monorail under budget.
56. Swatter, I guess the point I failed to make is that even a project as small by comparison as the NASCAR track was scrutinized far more severely for fiscal soundness than the monorail project has been.
57. There is a article online tonight in the Seattle Times written by Mike Lindblum with a hint of the forth-coming truth....
"Monorail officials have mentioned tapping a proposed "traffic mitigation" fund for the state's proposed Alaskan Way Viaduct tunneling project. Williamson said the monorail will serve commuters while the highway is closed."
Who didn't know that they would try to get the new gas tax money..........