The Monorail has finally released the details of its latest plan.
The punchline: it'll cost hundreds of millions more than what was promised to the voters in 2002, it will be delivered years later than promised, the trains will run less frequently than promised, there will be fewer stations than promised, the stations and tracks will be more of a blight on the urban landscape than promised , the car tax will have to be paid for decades longer than originally promised. In short, they haven't even broken ground or spent any real money yet, they're giving the rosiest scenario possible, and the really bad news is yet to come!
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 21, 2005 11:28 AM | Email ThisStupid, stupid, stupid . . .
Posted by: Sound Thinker on June 21, 2005 11:37 AMI just have to stand back and be amazed at how much fraud, and how many lies the people of Seattle will put up with. It’s almost like taxing your self to death is some way to get back at knuckle dragging conservatives.
glad I am not a Seattle resident. feel sorry for my conservative bretherin within it;s borders. happy for the feel-good libs there however -- i bet they are feeing just great now!
Posted by: dano on June 21, 2005 11:44 AMAnd for those of you glad you don't live in Seattle... Remember, "People belong stacked in cities so nature can developed undisturbed by human intervention." --Bruce Babbitt, Secretary of the interior under Pres. Clinton.
Things like "smart growth" and "wetland protection" are all code-words to remove private property get us all stacked in those cities.
Feel afraid, feel very afraid.
(And fight 'em!)
Posted by: Jeremy on June 21, 2005 11:57 AMSMP has put forward a financing plan that does not have an end date for the car tabs tax. When the plan was put to the voters in 2002, SMP projected the car tab tax would last 25 years. That was WAY short of the mark because the tax base was far less than what SMP thought. So instead of the project costing 25 years of car tab taxes, the plan now is for at least 45 more years, and quite possible more.
The car tab tax could well last more than 45 more years because there is absolutely no way for an accurate projection to be made of the growth of the size and value of a city's vehicle fleet over more than four decades.
The big problem for Seattle residents is that the appointed SMP board can not accurately evaluate whether this project is a good value because it can not even reasonably estimate what the cost will be.
Let's assume the revenues are sufficient to retire all debt in 2050. What will the cost of this project have been? Perhaps $5,000,000,000. It is not worth it.
Posted by: ringo on June 21, 2005 11:58 AM"Joel Must Be Jailed"
Posted by: Cato (the elder) on June 21, 2005 12:05 PM
Why did the Seattle Voter get fired from his job at the M&M factory? For throwing out all the Ws!
Posted by: Just a Guy on June 21, 2005 12:07 PMMost of my friends in Seattle have had to pay tab fees of around $300 - $500 because of the monorail tax.
At a price tag of $2.1 billion over 50 years, it works out to about $42,000,000/year that needs to be raised. If the average tax is $400, you'd have to have as few as 105,000 cars in the city to justify such a high tab fee.
With the population of Seattle, I find it really hard to believe that there are only 105,000 cars in the city. Am I missing something here?
Posted by: Darth Dogbert on June 21, 2005 12:09 PMBoeing you say. Hmmm how about that nice dock in the Mukilteo/Everett area? Who paying for that?
Try US!
But why do the idiot voters of Seattle think this plan would be any closer to the true cost of the project that the first one?
Don’t these people demand any accountability from this group of thieves? Do liberals just happily drink this kool aid because Joel Connelly and Jim McDermott tell them to?
Sounds like every DOT project, for that matter...
Posted by: Brent on June 21, 2005 12:42 PMSeattlites will get taxed far more than they voted for, and the rest of the state will get taxed for a project for which we have no vote - lib business as usual!
Posted by: fred on June 21, 2005 12:51 PMI thought the government was meant to provide transportation to the citizens? So the state provides a ferry terminal near Boeing (I know that is a stupid place to put it right where people will use it to get to work). The trouble is the state rarely puts money where it is needed or wanted, but rather into their social engineering projects.
PS - I don 't know that much about the terminal, nor do I use it, but it seems that it helps the citizens get to jobs, and it helps the employer (in this case Boeing) have a larger employee pool. My guess is, though, that it was far more expensive than it should have been, but that is not Boeing's fault.
Posted by: fred on June 21, 2005 12:59 PMNice answer sir, but shall we get back to the Boeing give away.
By the way, the cost is in the millions!
Good try though.
Ciao
Posted by: KyGuy on June 21, 2005 01:18 PMNot sure what you mean about the ferry terminal and Boeing?
The dock is down a ways from the Mukilteo/Clinton dock. I could go on & on about the new dock for Boeing , but I'll try to make this short.
First of all the new dock is for the 7E7 only.
I'm not saying the city of Everett and the Washington goverment hasn't tried to milk Boeing for many $$$.
They have and I know because I have worked for Boeing many years now. But asking for the state to drop this kind of money on a dock for just one plane that NO-ONE can be sure will sale or do what they claim is nuts!
Plus the the amount of jobs for the cost of this dock does not add up. I'm all for keeping the Boeing here, but not wasting the tax payers money.
Is there really no other use for that dock other than to serve Boeing and the single aircraft? No other industry? I would think that the 787 will fly, there are orders for it and Boeing does make a good airplane. That same thing was said about the 747 too. It is a far lower risk that the monorail, and Boeing makes money. It also will bring money to Puget Sound from around the world with the sale of the 787. It still shouldn't have taxpayers pay for it.
Posted by: fred on June 21, 2005 01:41 PMI agree Fred.
http://www.aircraft-info.net/aircraft/jet_aircraft/boeing/7e7/7E7Dreamliner_9.jpg
I believe that the final tally was 1200 jobs in WA State for the 787 program. For $3 billion in tax breaks, technology/training centers, and transportation 'compensation'.
Too bad this thing keeps getting the vote of the people, something you turds CLAIM to respect!
Posted by: Lush Flimbaugh on June 21, 2005 02:46 PMSecondly, conservatives aren't against public transit. We are against projects the overpromise, underdeliver, and won't publish plans that show all the phases, including funding, from start to finish. You might want to actually read the fine print before lambasting any one who dares to voice a different opinion.
If you and your like minded buddies don't mind handing blank checks over to Joel Horn and his cronies for many years to come, please hold a press conference immediately so the rest of us don't have to pay the the latest public transit debacle. So far none of the public transit projects that have ever been done in this state have delivered as promised.
Posted by: Burdabee on June 21, 2005 03:10 PMThis one is kind of fun for me. I’m not a resident of Seattle. It’s just bizarre to stand back and watch trolls like lush jump and scream like little kids demanding to be ripped off.
Just amazing.
But to what your point seems to be, Burdabee's answer is great and beyond that we are for the HONEST vote and standing by it. Seattlites are going to be paying for this a long time, and as JDH said all the rich that everyone likes to milk, they will have their expensive cars registered out of Seattle.
Posted by: fred on June 21, 2005 03:43 PMAnd did your mother teach you to be a hypocrite or did you learn that by listening to my radio show?
Posted by: Lush Flimbaugh on June 21, 2005 03:48 PMAdditionally, the 787 is just the start of an entire generation of airplanes from Boeing. Boeing is already going to use the technology used in the 787 to develop a new 747 and within a few years it will probably start incorporating the technologies into the 737.
So Washington may have given Boeing billions of dollars of tax breaks over the next 20 years, but if they had not done so, Boeing would have left Washington within the next decade or two. The net increase of jobs directly linked to the 787 might be 1200 (in reality it's closer to 5k), but imagine what the Washington economy would have been like if it had lost the over 200,000 jobs that currently support Boeing (direct Boeing employment + Suppliers), that's not counting all the other area jobs that would be lost on top of that due to those 200,000 people being unemployed.;)
Plus side.. Housing would be cheap and we wouldn't have the congestion problem that is causing the government to throw crap at the wall and see what sticks. ;)
Posted by: Bobblehead on June 21, 2005 03:53 PMHate Bush
Iraq war was a lie
love taxes
and and and......It's always about the Children
But apparently dems think more than once - NO GAS TAX was voted on and passed and ignored by the dems. I601 was voted on and passed and ignored by the dems. So what is being censored, what is anti-american? Again this is NOT HA, please do not behave as if you are.
Posted by: fred on June 21, 2005 03:54 PMAs for the monorail, Seattle is welcome to tax itself into oblivion to pay for it (perhaps they should follow suit with the Alaskan Tunnel).
Posted by: Palouse on June 21, 2005 03:59 PMThat’s a good question Lush. Exactly how many times do you think it should take to count the votes for what the people really meant? - One, two, three?
And did your mother teach you to be a hypocrite or did you learn that by listening to Sim's and his little court Jester.
Are you going to be playing here until pre-school starts back up?
Dunno.. How many times do the people have to vote in favor of a Monorail in Seattle before its opponents believe we really mean it? (Answer: 4 and counting)
Posted by: Bobblehead on June 21, 2005 05:18 PMWhy do you republicans think you get a "do over" every time you don't like the results. And for those right wing liars (or fools - take your pick) that want this to be DEMS v. Rs contest, I hate to blow up your latest load of bull, but REPUBLICANS voted for this gas tax too. So stop lying and pretending this is a DEMOCRAT idea. It makes your already weak argument look even weaker.
By the way, four - count em' four votes FOR the monorail were enough. You righties don't get to waste anymore of that precious tax money you're always CLAIMING to be worried about.
Posted by: Lush Flimbaugh on June 21, 2005 05:39 PMThe citizens are a little upset about the 80 or so emergencies declared by the legislature so they could by pass the citizen passed initiative. Also, the lie about increasing taxes as a last resort has some people in a bad mood.
Question Lush:
When will the pretend Governor and dems in the legislature start telling us the truth?
And if you would put your head in a place where you can actually breathe air, you might get enough oxygen to realize the issue on the monorail is not a revote, but A-C-C-O-U-N-T-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y!!! I know this is a foreign concept to you and Olympia, but it would be a good one to learn about.
Posted by: Burdabee on June 21, 2005 06:15 PMHow about we make a deal. The pretend Governor and Dems in the state legislature will start telling us the truth when the pretend President and Reps in the national legislature start telling us the truth. Deal? :)
Also.. A little curious about the 'price they were quoted is doubled and the service they were sold is cut in half' comment. According the Seattle Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002342696_monorail21m.html)
Original price was $1.75 billion, current price is $2.1 billion (20% increase), number of stations dropped from 19, to 16 with another on hold only because of the land isn't available yet and 2 others on hold, and train frequency is going from 6 minute gaps between trains to 8 minute gaps between trains ( 25% decrease ).
Damn... The facts suck? :)
Posted by: Bobblehead on June 21, 2005 06:25 PMI wonder what the bond rating is going to be in 2020 with 25-30 years to go.
Oh ya, I forgot, this is just the latest lie, more to come. How about the bond rating in
2070?
But I forgot, I’m, trying to save you from yourself.
Five simple questions, just answer them honestly.
Posted by: Joe on June 21, 2005 08:45 PMJust becasue you are too poor to afford living in Seattle, doesn't mean you need to drag the rest of us down.
You complain about taxes, but the real problem is your inflation adjusted wages are declining, because you are too dumb to compete in the worldwide free market, free for all you claim to love so much.
Those of us who can afford to live in cities, and are willing to pay for the services that make them great places to live in, hope you all move away.
In fact, why don't you move to to a truly low tax state like Mississippi if you are convinced low taxes are so great. Even better, move to some libertarian paradise like rural Uganda.
Posted by: Low income losers on June 21, 2005 09:07 PMWhat services are you talking about?
Posted by: Joe on June 21, 2005 09:24 PMFOUR - COUNT EM FOUR VOTES! That's how many times you looooosers have tried to stop the monorail. And we ALL KNOW YOUR REAL AGENDA. You hate black people - and black people use public transit. You are racists! That's why you don't like the monorail. And sometimes, you have to pay taxes for things you don't support. Like me, I have to pay taxes so Monkey Face Bush can line his pockets in the war for oil. Do I think that's a good use of my money? Hell no. But I have to pay anyway. Get over it.
Posted by: Lush Flimbaugh on June 21, 2005 10:05 PMThis idiot could no more afford to live in Seattle without being subsidized by Mommy & Daddy than the f***ing man in the moon!
Posted by: Mr. Cynical on June 21, 2005 10:07 PMYou don't pay any taxes living in your mama's basement flushie, and buying a bus pass isn't gonna pay for your monorail. Other people are gonna have to have to (once again) pick up the tab for your lack of common sense.
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 21, 2005 10:20 PMAs for the demographics of who rides mass transit, you obviously don't take it much or you would know that your comment is not only stupid but untrue. You are still missing the point of this whole discussion. It is too bad your education didn't include critical thinking skills.
Posted by: Burdabee on June 21, 2005 10:31 PMThis monorail project is actually going to cost $11 billion by the time they pay off all the construction bonds at junk rate interest over the next 50 years.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/transportation/229504_monorail22.html
State Treasurer Mike Murphy and State Auditor Brian Sonntag think that the financing scheme is a bunch of hooey and that the economics of the monorail project are built on quicksand.
Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels is a strong supporter of the monorail, and all the other projects that are flushing Seattle taxpayers money down the toilet.
Unfortunately, no one seems to be running against Nickels as of yet for re-election:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/229516_nickels22.html
Maybe someone should draft Sharkansky for the job?
Gulp Gulp Gulp
Posted by: GS on June 22, 2005 01:38 AMAnd residents of Seattle are getting exactly what they voted for....regardless of what it will end up costing them. It was not difficult to forecast the problems with cost overruns this monorail has had thus far, so my interest as a nonresident of Seattle is purely superficial because I'm not being taxed for it. Where this DOES get my interest is that it's ALSO not difficult to forecast all the cost overruns that the ALaskan Way Tunnel will ultimately have and THAT I will have to pay for and yet I DID NOT get to vote on it.
Posted by: Palouse on June 22, 2005 07:56 AM-Mayor Greg Nickels, 2002.
Posted by: Palouse on June 22, 2005 08:51 AMThe "delay" until June 30th is merely to present the most accurate details, before the Project's Finance Committee, at a meeting where some of the financial/bond advisors can attend. It also gives the Board time to digest the details of the documents above, and prepare questions to ask.
Posted by: FoM Prez on June 22, 2005 09:11 AMActually, the new FIXED contract price is about three to four hundred million more than what was promised to the voters in 2002, and that includes some significant reserves which may not be needed.
It will be delivered ONE year later than promised.
The trains will run TWO MINUTES less frequently than promised, and could be increased simply by purchasing more trains when passenger demand calls for it.
UP TO 19 stations were promised in 2002, of which 16 are in the contract, 1 is delayed but fully funded, and 2 have been deferred.
The car tax may have to be paid for two decades longer than originally promised, because there is a 30% shortfall in MVET revenues.
In short, they have cut back on costs while delivering the 13.7 miles promised, delayed purchasing some trains until needed to meet ridership levels, deferred stations that do not have high enough ridership to justify their cost, and proposed financing over a longer term instead of asking the voters to pay higher taxes up front.
This sounds to me like the kind of fiscal management you would like to see from the governments around here.
And need I remind anyone that this is a Project conceived by the public, approved by the public, and payed for only by those people who had the opportunity to vote on it?
Posted by: FoM Prez on June 22, 2005 09:21 AMBut let no one misunderstand. This is a classic boondoggle. It will cost MILLIONS more than any will admit. It will take YEARS longer to complete than predicted. It will service fewer than anticipated.
And, most importantly, it will cost every resident of this state. How? Because of the (mis)directed funding for this project, Seattleites will increasingly look to the state to fulfill their never ending wish list of social projects. Their ambitions ALWAYS exceed their abilities, and the state (that means you & me people!) will be looked to pick up the slack.
Anyone who tells you that "Project conceived by the public, approved by the public, and payed for only by those people who had the opportunity to vote on it" is a flim-flam artist.
Guard your wallets folks, because...
The Democrats are Coming!
The Democrats are Coming!