Ron Sims' "Independent Elections Task Force", of which I expressed initial skepticism, demonstrated genuine independence and fortitude yesterday when it disclosed and discussed the results of its survey of King County Elections staff. This mornings Seattle Times: "Morale "very low" among election workers"
At a meeting of the task force yesterday, members found "a climate of fear that dissuades employees from informing their supervisors of problems or offering solutions to them." And it said the Elections Section failed to strike a balance between "protecting the jobs of failing employees and protecting the reputations" of competent workers.It's a damning indictment of Dean Logan's management. Read the whole thing. Also see this morning's P-I article: "County election workers 'embarrassed': Survey in department indicates low morale, atmosphere of fear". And the King County Journal: "As scandals pile up, so does shame - Half of county's election staffers tell task force they're embarrassed to work for department"
the survey shows a lack of trust in senior leadership. More than 63 percent did not agree with the statement that senior leaders in the department are committed to high standards and compliance with laws.Go figure.
Dean Logan has an official response to the survey, where he discloses more bad news yet tries to sugar coat it.
Posted by Stefan Sharkansky at June 18, 2005 07:43 AM | Email ThisIf Ron Sims is re-elected this fall, then there is no hope for King County.
Posted by: jaybo on June 18, 2005 08:08 AMI'm sorry, but there's a balance to be struck between those two things?
Forgive me, but "protecting the jobs of failing employees" is not something that needs to be "balanced" with something else. It needs to be stopped.
Posted by: ScottM on June 18, 2005 08:09 AMIf that is so, then what in the world is KCE doing in this analysis? (for you troll idiots like unkl, the previous comments were sarcastic)
KCE quote: "Yeah, we "franked" you, Rossi and the rest of the state...get over it."
Posted by: Danny on June 18, 2005 08:22 AM"Secretary Reed,
Care to explain to the voters of Washington State why we should trust your staff, especially when we read these types of reports?
http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sited/story/html/210002
It wont matter what you say or do now, as a republican politician you are finished in this state.
My new motto as a Washington Republican is "Kick the Bums Out!""
Posted by: jaybo on June 18, 2005 08:23 AMWhy include the "public sector organization," in the mix. It reflects the statist attitude of those in KC leadership, or lack thereof. The private sector leader will concentrate on doing the most accurate possible in the most efficient manner.
What we have in the vast majority of "public sector organizations," is poorly run and managed organizations with no concern for accuracy or cost. Since no one gets fired mistakes only create more work which requires more money from the taxpayer. There is no motivation to make things efficient or to save money - period.
This is why Socialism creates poverty.
Sims says the department has provided training for workers. He added as for overwork, that's the nature of government work.
He added: "There are a lot of public employees who do incredible work. And I'm simply not going to let those individuals who do not want to work, don't want to be professional, who want to complain, who want to blame other people, pollute it all. I'm simply not going to let that happen."
Sims says it time for workers to be responsible, and that includes accepting blame rather than pointing fingers: "We can't make it easier for people. Elections is a tough job. If you don't like it, get out. I don't make you work for us. You are a free person. Leave."
Posted by: as-seen-on-tv on June 18, 2005 08:46 AMIn other words you were wrong about this just like every other thing you've said about the election has been wrong. At least you are consistent Steffy!
Posted by: Lush Flimbaugh on June 18, 2005 08:48 AMTrouble is, how do you fire people with such protection? The system is so entrenched, one's options are to accept it, leave the system or simply be a gadfly and keep exposing it in the hopes of initiating change.
What about elections whistleblowers? If they are that ashamed, if they care so much, why not come forward? I don't see a rush to 'reform from within,' despite all the cutesy "mission statements" composed at lavish retreats at the taxpayer's expense.
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 18, 2005 08:48 AMTake any large organization; public, private, govt, non-profit, you pick one. Bring in scores of lawyers to go thru every operational detail with a fine tooth comb. Add hoards of media to cover the whole thing in a very skeptical light on national television. And throw in the endless attacks from a group who hated the organization to begin with and will continue to say vile things about it til their dying day.
Presto! You've got a group who's morale is not too good regardless of their performance.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 18, 2005 09:14 AMSorry I hurt your feelings on that other thread. But try not to take this stuff too personally. It's just for fun.
Imagine how poor ole Dean Logan feels. He has two thirds of the whole state calling him an idiot.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 18, 2005 09:25 AMImagine how Logan feels actually being an idiot?! Oh wait, you can.;)
Posted by: Danny on June 18, 2005 09:29 AM"We agree. Which is why it is time to replace Ron Sims."
Posted by: Jim Miller on June 18, 2005 09:36 AM"This is why Socialism creates poverty."
from: Ipsi-dixit at June 18, 2005 08:31 AM
...but the reality is that the real reason is that socialism is based upon Fabian economics. It centers on the redistribution of wealth, not the creation and proper enjoyment of wealth.
When you have a flawed goal, you will have flawed results.
Sorta like a certain election that we're painfully aware of.
But you are correct, of course, about the entrenched lib structure. It's like the warriar class is meant to protect and get things done. The entrenched structure is meant to protect itself and make sure than nothing else gets done.
Time for an independent 3rd party performance audit.
Posted by: Brent on June 18, 2005 10:24 AMYou do not have carte blanche to engage in driveby skunkings and then feign shock at what you get in return. Either grow a pair, or take it like a man...you've earned it.
Posted by: Danny on June 18, 2005 10:24 AMyou wound me deeply.
What have I done to earn your displeasure?
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 18, 2005 02:21 PMWell let me tell you all, I feel so damn much better knowing SoS Sam Reed, Dean Logan and Ron Sims are on it. You bet folks, we will see serious reform now.
Posted by: cc on June 18, 2005 02:55 PMYep, Stefan, you are correct, he sure did sugar coat this. His contriteness was not genuine.
A word to the "temps" and lower position employees who are on the front lines in this elections department, put your concerns and questions in writing, date and time them, take them to the appropriate supervisor. Keep copies for yourself.
Common sense alert: Now that we know 3/4 of the employee think Huennekens is no good and even Logan knows he's a flop, WHY is it that he's not fired and gone??
WHO specifically is propagating the fear there? Is one of the fears that if you point out that the elections office is being run to benefit democrats they'll be fired for 'not being a "team player"'? One really has to wonder
Posted by: Michele on June 18, 2005 03:06 PMIf the employees were that committed to doing their job, we wouldn't still be finding ballots squirreled away in various nooks and crannies. Either they can't understand the written procedures or they have always done shoddy work but have never been called on the carpet until now. The whole department should get fired or reassigned. The lack of remorse on their part says it all.
The only reason we are even getting information about the election mess is because Rossi refused to quietly fade into the night. Sims and his lackeys know an informed public will bring about the end of his empire, so you can bet they will do everything they can to make this look like just a bunch of "minor errors". He knows his days are numbered and same for Dean Logan.
Posted by: Burdabee on June 18, 2005 04:50 PMShake hands--(zzzzitt) my trick hand buzzer--ha ha a joke too!!--ok--if you are really serious, you hate incompetence and screw-ups as much as any conservative; it's just about smooth, clean operations; applies to sewage treatment as well as elections as well as the most delicate brain surgery--the public wants things to work, done by competent folks and we don't want a lot of waste and excuses--it's that simple;
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 18, 2005 08:50 PMThis means one thing--Tent City will definitely have jacuzzis and valet parking at your expense; what a travesty; hey--are you getting 48% more service and/or 48% more effeciency or 48% more value for your dollar? (buzzer sound--waaaaaahhh!!!)
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 18, 2005 09:34 PMMore likely either your assessment was too low last year (in which case you should be happy with your unjust past savings) and/or your house appreciated a lot (which is hardly Ron Sims's fault).
Posted by: Bruce on June 18, 2005 09:38 PMCertianly the whole elections area of KC is one big f-ing mess. We already knew that.
The lame thing, though, is that Logan issues such a stupid statement. He should have said - if his claims about changing the culture were true - "This is just what happens when you inplement culture change. People that don't want change gripe."
Posted by: BananaLand(aka Iguana) on June 18, 2005 09:45 PMHowcome you R's think just because you were born under a lucky star, you are entitled to a disportionate share of the planet's wealth?
Danny Boy calls ME arrogant! You is the most arrogant, self absorbed, hypocritical, bunch partisan hacks I have ever encountered. You should be ashamed.
And you call your selves CHRISTIANS. Christ would turn away in disgust.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 18, 2005 10:20 PMYou are by no means alone if you have "spent hundreds of hours helping others". Complain to high heaven if you please about how your tax dollars are being spent. But don't accuse anyone of having a "jacuzzi in tent city" until you have spent a few of those "hundreds of hours" down there getting to know those folks. You'll find out they have nothing even remotely resembling a jacuzzi.
It strikes me as very hypocritical to gripe about them when your President is spending orders of magnitude more of your precious "tax dollars" on an ill planned and unnecessary war, not to mention the scores of thousands of lives it has cost.
Perhaps a little quiet contemplation of your inner values is in order. From where I stand, they are way out of touch.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 18, 2005 10:53 PMIt sounds like Sims, Logan and Huennekens created and maintained a hostile work environment in the elections office. The employees were too fearful to report or voice complaints about the "problems". (ie; lack of data, lack of securty, missing signatures on registration records, missing ballots, found ballots, blank ballots,etc...) One employee was made an example to the others when she complained. She was placed on paid leave until after the General election. and also prohibited from contacting other employees during this time!
Whoa! This is a person that needs to be interviewed by the Feds!
Posted by: Deborah on June 19, 2005 12:25 AMUnkl Wiz is likely one of the do-gooders who thinks that officially providing for people in tents, without heat in the cold, without sufficient showers, without sanitary washing facilities, without medical services, and without background warrant checks is a good thing because it annoys the citizens of the surrounding neighborhoods. If it rubs the affluent then in Unkl Wiz's eyes it's good (for the cause). What Unkl Wiz ignores is that the more forunate do care and want to help eliminate the need for Tent Cities to exist by working to house the homeless in-doors, provide hand-up opportunities, addressing root ailments and addictions and to provide incentive to return to the general productive society. Unkl Wiz wants no part in solving homelessness/Tent City because there would be no more poster child or tax dollars going into the socialist propaganda machine.
Back to the jacuzzis Unkl Wiz. I bet that Ron Sims, Stephanie Warden (DDES), Scott Morrow (SHARE), Anitra Freeman (WHEEL), Rev. Sandy Brown and Eastside Cares (ha!) are sleeping comfortably in their cozy houses as I write this while their 100+ homeless minions get nothing more than a pallet on the ground covered by a blue tarp and a donated blanket--all this courtesy of millions of dollars provided by FEMA, United Way, YMCA, and taxpayers. This is hyprocrisy--this is Tent City activism--oh yeah, this is also Ron's best solution.
Posted by: Elvis is the King County on June 19, 2005 01:23 AMShe wasn't the one who talked about people in tent cities getting jacuzzis. It was Jimmie-howya-doin. You morons are so frantic in your condemnation of anything having to do with property rights and the right to keep what someone's worked honestly and very hard for, that you can't even get the names straight. Go crawl back under your rocks (or back into your guvmint assisted apartments, or high-rise condos, or wherever the heck you came from). I was P.O.ed with a 26% increase in assessment in Pierce county, but there's definitely people who've got more right to scream longer and louder than me! To quote that s.o.b. that was instrumental in getting us to this point: "Ah feeull your pain", Grammy!
And, to pour salt and acid in the open wound caused by the tax increases, we can writhe in pain in the 7th circle of HELL knowing we won't get SQUAT for our tax increases!!! :mad:
Like many areas of the county, the city of Sammamish is an exporter of taxes (paying more than we consume), while the solid democrat areas of the county are mostly importers of tax confiscation (I refuse to call it "revenues"). Just another reason to split up the county. Just think of the quality of service (or the savings) we would have without the disproportionate redistribution of our taxes.
spend of few days in a tent city. Find out who really lives there. Discover they are human beings too, and, ... but for the grace of god [sic], you go too.
Yes, of course they are human beings. And it is shameful that they are being manipulated in this spotlight of dependency and humiliation to feed an insatiable political machine. And I don't buy in to the "but for the grace of God (note proper capitalization, Unkl) line. The homeless advocates have overused that one.
How come you R's think just because you were born under a lucky star, you are entitled to a disportionate [sic] share of the planet's wealth?
Why is it that liberals always think that anybody living above the poverty line either inherited it or was somehow lucky? Luck has nothing to do with it. Hard work and dedication is the simple formula for success. And I don't know what you mean about "disproportionate". I would be thrilled if I only had to pay taxes on the services I use. My refund check would buy a lot of food and clothing for my three kids.
Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on June 19, 2005 09:17 AMMeanwhile, on this Father's Day, my husband and I are grateful for the fathers who taught us a strong work ethic . . . that ethic that enabled us to own our precious property that King Sims has dibs on. We are grateful that they taught us the love of country and family. On that note, it's time to dress for church. Did I mention that this is just another Sunday, where we will go with our children and grandchildren and sit together, as an unbroken circle? Yes, we are rich . . . but not in worldly goods.
Posted by: lksimstrailgrammy on June 19, 2005 09:34 AMYes--Unkl--it was intentionally over the top--to emphasize a point--is Grammy getting a 48% increase in service or quality for her 48% tax increase? Yes--it's not always proportionate, but taxpayers expect something more for paying more. History has taught us otherwise. Paying tax is not the issue--getting value is the issue.
I'm sure none of us hate the T City people personally. We hate a system that allows them to plop anywhere and demand/expect handouts for doing nothing--not picking up garbage, no work, no graffiti cleanup--nothing. Why don't they seek out private charities? Because the charities demand something in return. And no--most people were not born 'under a star.' Like me, (and I'm sure you) they sacrificed, worked hard, paid their own way and earned a house, boat or whatever with the talents they were given.
Ask Paul Allen why HE built that car-wreck of a building for himself downtown to hail rock & roll. You are not calling HIM on the carpet for that? Paul could have used it for a homeless shelter. Why the pass for him & other leaders who have the means? And--they earned their billions, too--why are they not condemned?
Why do some Americans have this twisted view that it's o.k. to make millions (and risk much along the way), but then we all are entitled to get a piece of the pie? I did not help Bill Gates when he was a nobody in a garage, so why should I now expect a part of his wealth?
We as voters have much more clout in elections if we just get involved and get our neighbors to cast ballots.
Posted by: Elvis is the King County on June 19, 2005 07:48 PMI can't tell you how much fun it is to hear you scramble to post your bona fides on how you really do care for the underprivledges in our society.
But the most fun is hearing you explain why you are entitleled to your good fortune and wealth and how hard you worked to earn it. What a laugh. What a pathetic joke you all are to your self proclaimed "christian" values.
Some of you speak of "root causes" and "hard work". As if the poor amoung us don't know anything about "hard work". This is good to hear, because I'm sure I'll find you on the side of "open borders" whereby those who truly do believe in ideals and hard work enter our country and willingly undertake the "hard work" of picking our crops so our agribusiness can maximize their return to the shareholders.
As for "root causes" of poverty, let me remind you (or initially inform you), the root cause of poverty is ..... poverty. If you are unfortunate enough to be born into it, you will likely experience it throughout you lifetime.
I really don't know for sure, but I would guess that most of you know little or nothing of poverty. I'd bet you were all given a pretty good shot at purchasing that overtaxed piece of real estate by your parents' social and finacial status. Feel free to enlighten me if you really did find a way to earn it by creating wealth.
So spare me you pious lectures on "how hard you worked" to gain your previledges. You likely worked no harder than most of the rest of the planet's inhabitants who find themselves in much lesser financial circumstances. In other words, your current state of material well being is a matter of pure luck, and not your effort.
So what are you to do with all this wealth? You can share it with the less fortunate as Jesus admonishes us to do. Or you can whine about your terrible tax burden per Tim Eyman.
In the end, you sound like a bunch of silver spoon bastards who were born on third base, and go around telling everyone you hit a triple.
As I said before, Christ would turn away in disgust.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 19, 2005 11:14 PMI know you think you funny, cute and witty but you are trying to play with people who are way over your head. Both in knowledge and as class human beings, you better cut your loss and head back to ha.org.
Posted by: 4pawz on June 19, 2005 11:39 PMYeah? Show me....
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 19, 2005 11:43 PM
Posted by: Elvis is the King County on June 20, 2005 01:53 AM
Unkl Putz sez: "In the end, you sound like a bunch of silver spoon bastards who were born on third base...."
A perfect job of liberal projection! Accuse his enemies of his very own folly.
Thank you swizzle-stick, once again, for showing us the witless face of liberalism!
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 20, 2005 07:27 AMRecall I'm not the one whining about the tax rates and imaginary amenities for the poor.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 20, 2005 07:38 AMWow, sounds like more than enough room to set up a homeless camp. And lots of "amenities" available. Showers, toilets, and lots of compassion. And a chance to make lots of new friends. After all, the campers are just a proportionate sampling of the population. Any of the rest of us are just "a few paychecks away" from being there ourselves.
I wonder if there is room for a media camp, as well. Every successful homeless camp needs a place for satellite uplink equipment and spotlights to shine upon the downtrodden.
Of course, I wouldn't think it to be either "selfish" or "hypocritical" if Unkl didn't want this in his backyard.
Posted by: Mr. Grabbit on June 20, 2005 08:01 AMSince you're still hanging around, I'll answer your very first question on this thread:
Morale is quite high around Rossi's campaign, thank you very much! Everyone there knows that they ran a great campaign; they received more votes than the opponent not once, but twice; they brought many serious problems in King County to light that will help in future elections; and they fought the good fight for the citizens of our state.
Furthermore, you'll not find ONE person who is embarrassed to work for Dino Rossi at his campaign. He's a great guy, he's personable, and he would have been a great Governor. There is certainly not the atmosphere of fear (to report problems and be put on administrative leave) and embarrassment that pervades King County Elections.
So put that in your hookah and take a big puff, okay?
But your question reveals more about you and your party than the answer does ours. It's a red herring. This thread was not about Rossi's campaign, it was about KCEC and the problems there - all paid for by us, the taxpayers.
Apparently you don't care about the atmosphere of fear and embarrassment - as long Rossi lost and Gregoire won, who cares about problems? Lost votes? Unaccountable management? No reconcilation? No problem for Unky Witz, it's all good as long as you win. That's certainly what your post communicates. What intelligent and worldly thinking by one of our resident idiots.
Well, I hate to rain on your parade, but Dino's doing just fine, as is his campaign. Meanwhile, Gregoire's ratings are in the crapper, people across the state are angry, Ron Sims is in for the fight of his professional political career (since he has no professional non-political career to speak of), Huennekens has been reassigned, and even the local media is trashing Logan. And we've only just begun to fight! Enjoy it while you can, Unky Witz, because Washington is now a battleground state, and we're bringing the fight to a neighborhood near you.
Posted by: Larry on June 20, 2005 09:58 AMPosted by: Elvis is the King County on June 20, 2005 10:02 AM
No open border guy here--dues-paying member of FAIR. Picking agri products? Well, I don't see any push to get U.S. able-bodied welfare roll people to work doing the same. So the illegals fill that vacuum, much to my displeasure and that of local communities who foot the REAL, FULL social costs as well as their own for that cherry crop or lettuce.
I will sell my house, all my possessions and move to a third-world poverty area to do good works as soon as YOU do the same. Until then, don't comdemn me for having a work ethic or do the liberal guilt trip ploy of "sharing everything." Those like you who want to "share wealth" are happy to wait and pounce on the guy who created his wealth after the heavy lifting/risk taking was done.
If inhereted, then so what? Why pick someone's pocket under the guise of "fairness?" Your assumption that wealth is evil is flawed as well as your assumption that such people give nothing to charities. Who was that liberal president recently who gave a pittance to charity on release of his financial statements? Does India still have a caste system? Are YOU working to change their 'unfair' sytem? Are they?
The 3rd world countries' leaders have shown us that they do not TRULY care for their own. They have had plenty of time to do it, too. Now we forgive their debts to encourage more lost money?
No guilt here. In the words of your own guilt-ridden left, "Move On!"
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 20, 2005 10:30 AMGuess that blows a hole in your liberal preference & love for BASTARD children as we see is so 'trendy' and 'inclusive' in Hollywood and our society at large today.
Posted by: Jimmie-howya-doin on June 20, 2005 10:41 AMWell said, Jimmie! I too, refuse to feel any guilt for having a job, car and a house. Nor for being a white male.
First of all, a confession: as Michele adroitly points out, I really do like all you guys. What a great bunch of fans you are. I don't get near this much attention at HA.
It's good to see you have taken the time to decipher my heavily encrypted e-mail address and learn my real name, and where I live. I was disappointed to hear my property described as a "horse acre". That type of realtor vernacular has always irritated me to no end. My lot is a true acre. But, who cares? Esp since I have gleefully ceded over 65% of it to Chairman Simms CAO.
It's also a lot of fun to hear all the stereotypes you project onto me. But I guess what goes around, comes around. In the end, we all get what we deserve. So I really must deserve this fabulously lucky existence, my gorgeous and loving wife of 25 years and two wonderful children.
And I am sure you all deserve the wonderful existence you are experiencing as well. Just think, but for our hard work, we could have been born in the Sudan.
Peace, love, and brotherhood to you all. I don't dislike you, I'm just disappointed you all don't think more like I do. But I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 20, 2005 10:43 PMI realize that is is a dead waste of time trying to teach a pig to fly, a rock to be a roll, and an imbicile to think.
You are worth a laugh however, so you aren't a complete waste of flesh.......
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 21, 2005 06:36 AMUnkl Witz:
I take particular exception for your attempt to suggest Christ would condemn various people for their attitudes on the poor. You perpetuate what I think is an insidious myth about Christ and His teachings regarding charity and love. To give you some measure of credit, I agree with the underlying premise that Christ DOES require love and charity, but the Bible also makes it clear that one is to work to earn his food. But that is not my issue. What burns me most about common liberal calls for charity and the use of Christ as the wedge to shame people into paying is that Christ never called for people to make sure OTHER poeple paid their fair share of charity. Christ never told the faithful to exact more from the rich so that the poor will live well. In fact, Christ rarely told the rich themselves to pay for the purpose of helping the poor. He never told Zaccheus to pay anything. When he did admonish a rich person to give up all his money, it was NOT for the benefit of the poor but for the benefit of the rich young ruler himself. It is my belief that God is less concerned with who gets the chraity and more concerned with the heart of those who will or will not give. So, when poeple contend that Christ would be shamed by people's position against taxing rich people to help the poor, I would contend that he would be more shamed that he was used as a stick to force charity. God loves a cheerful giver, I don't think he has much affection for the guy who cheerfully votes to insure others give. God want's our hearts, and charity is a measure of that, but only charity that is freely given. Anything else is not charity. The issue here is not about charity anyway, it is about the right of government to redistribute wealth and to whom that wealth would be distributed.
A point of yours that I DO grant is that none of us "worked" our way into being born into the land of planty verses some poverty stricken land. We DO take our wealth for granted, and we ARE exteremely selfish with it. All but the very exteremely poor in this nation are wealthier than 90% of the rest of the world. That might be why some of us are less than moved by the poor in our nation because they are pretty well off in comparison to others in the world, though by comaprison to us wealthy (And most of us in this forum are probably more wealthy than Zaccheus was.) Anyway, you are right to say that we have little to crow about in the grand scheme of things. However, you hurt your own argument when you fail to live to the standard that you preach. Voting for progressive taxes for the needy is not sufficient. You need to acutally get down and dirty and "give all your possessions to the poor" before you can level accuasations about uncharitbaleness in others.
It is my contention that the government has greatly overstepped its bounds in how it handles charity and social services.
And just so people can relate to where I am coming from:
I am the son of a (legal) immagrant mother who raised me after her husband left her when I was 9 months old. I have 2 special needs children by adoption with a third one to be adopted late summer. I take to heart the verse "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in thier distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." -James 1:27
Posted by: Eyago on June 21, 2005 08:23 AMThere have been a couple of one-liners from the lefties that were cute (we all have to take this with a grain of salt, and I can take a joke was well as any), but mostly they are all angry and nasty (it must be hell to go through life that way).
;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 21, 2005 03:27 PMWhat a wonderful example of the 'right' attempting to remake the Christian Faith into an institution more aptly reflecting their Republican values. Keep going, it appears to be working.
I guess one out two isn't bad though: e.g. to get you to grant my point that all the good folks here with a comfortable life style shouldn't be quite so proud of their hard work as they should be thankful for their fantastic luck.
Yeah, yeah... I know, you all started with nothing and worked hard all your lives to get where you are. But don't forget there are hundreds of millions of other souls on the planet who also started with nothing, worked hard all their lives and still have nothing to show for it. Hard work alone doesn't seem to be the causal factor.
So I don't ask you to feel guilty about your good luck, nor am I asking you to sell it all and give it to charity. I just thought you might resist the temptation to make disparaging remarks about the poor. Especially since you appear to know so little of their condition or motivations.
Finally, for a group that I would describe as "a very tough laugh", it is gratifying to learn that I at least amuse you, even if I can't change your minds.
Thanks for listening.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 22, 2005 07:14 AMWhat a wonderful example of twisting someone's words and point. Let me spell it out for you:
1. YOU played the Jesus card. YOU attempted to remake the Christian faith into an image of YOUR choosing. I only called you on it and gave examples of why I disagreed with your point
2. The insidious myth I objected to was the liberal ideal that it is somehow good, right, cheritable and Christ-like to give OTHER PEOPLE'S money to charity. That is NOT remaking Christianity into an institution reflecting Rebublican values. I stated my peorsonal view on it and in no way suggested it reflected ANY political system.
One other note about the tendency of some liberals who equate taxes and social spending with "Chrsitian values". Are they not then guilty of doing what they very clearly are against: erasing the "wall of separation between church and state"? After all, if you argue that Jesus would want you to pay social taxes, are you not then saying social taxes are a Christian value and that is why the state should procure funds and distribute them "in the name of Christ"?
Just wondering.
I ahve no problem with your desire to help the poor, and I agree that it is a Christian value. I would aplaud any efforts you make on thier behalf with your time and resources. I don't even have a problem with you adminishing Christians to consider compassionately the plight of the poor. The problem is, while Christ did teach what we are to do, He also led by example. My hope is that my words will not exceed my example.
I am not against helping the poor. I am against governemnt handouts en masse that do little to deal with the underlying issues of need. For me it IS a very religious position. It stems from a very fervant belief that God does not want our money but our hearts. When the Government takes over the role of charity, then there is no "heart of Christ" in the act. He is not glorified by it and there is no witness to Him. I beleive God's plan for His people is to win the world for Christ by our individual witness, and that means our personal sacrifice for those in need. This can never be done by government programs.
I couldn't have said it better myself ;'}
Posted by: alphabet soup on June 22, 2005 09:27 AMFirst, you make a wonderful point in your "heart of Christ" comment. I agree 100%. But reread my comments, where am I advocating taxing the rich to help the poor? If you read that into my posts, you were misinterpreting them.
I said I thought it was a cheap shot to gripe about jacuzzi's for the tent camps when no such ammenity exists. I think there is a lot of twisting, projection, and stereotyping going on in your posts as well.
Now that we've agreed the government has no business legislating or attempting to enforce Christian values on our polity, we can both move on to stand in support of the wall between church and state.
We should also move on to what is the best, appropriate, and necessary use of our hard earned dollars we give up in taxation.
My own view is they should be spent on national defense, domestic tranquility, public safety, infrastructure for the common good, and, of course, a rather complicated management system (we call it government) to administer all this.
Part of that domestic tranquility (a very small part) is providing a safety net for the less fortunate among us who just can't seem to find their way in a complex society. Yep, they're out there and no amount of vocational training and opportunity is going to make them a fully productive member of our society with a little help from the rest of us.
If there are perfectly capable slackers in this group, by all means, let's decant them off and send them packing. But let's not castigate and punish the whole group because a few jerks think they deserve a free ride.
I suspect, after we've gotten past the name calling, stereotyping, and poking fun at one another, we would find we have a lot more in common than than we have to disagree on.
Thanks for listening from your favorite troll.
Posted by: Unkl Witz on June 22, 2005 10:21 PM